Audio

Prabhupada: Worshiping the dead body.

Amogha: There's a pathway up here that goes off...

Srutakirti: Srila Prabhupada, do you want this hat? Do you want to put this hat on?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Amogha: Srila Prabhupada? Sometimes when we are speaking, people say, in the questions, they say, "Why do you say this is a science? It seems that this must be belief, because science..."

Prabhupada: The science is... Your so-called science is also belief. You believe in one way, we believe in another way. And if you call it science, then it is also science. If you call your belief as science, then why shall I not call my belief as science? Your is also belief. You have never gone to the moon, and you are talking of so many things about moon. That is your belief.

Amogha: But they say with science they can prove so many things, like the...

Prabhupada: We can also prove. You cannot prove. Just like you say the life is made of chemicals. You prove. Take chemicals and make a life, then it is proof. Otherwise it is a humbug. Why do you say like that, that life is made of chemicals? You cannot prove it.

Amogha: Well I do not say that life is made of chemicals.

Prabhupada: They say.

Amogha: They say. Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes, these rascals say.

Amogha: But they say they can prove that there are chemicals...

Prabhupada: You prove it. You prove it. You take the chemicals and prove-produce life. Why do you talk nonsense? First of all prove. You did not produce a life, even an ant, in the laboratory, and still you say the life is combination of chemicals. Why do you say like that? Challenge them.

Ganesa: We cannot see souls, Srila Prabhupada. It appears that matter comes from matter, or life comes from matter. We cannot see the soul.

Prabhupada: You cannot see, but you can perceive. If matter comes... Life comes from matter, then when there is a dead body, you put matter and make it alive. Or put chemicals. Chemical is also matter. Make him alive.

Paramahamsa: We made some, um, um...

Prabhupada: No, no, first of all this is my challenge, that here is a dead body, so bring some chemicals. Just like a motorcar stops for want of chemical, petrol. So you bring petrol and it will be started again. Similarly, you bring some chemical and start it again.

Paramahamsa: Well, that will require some time to find the chemicals.

Prabhupada: That means you fool. You are talking nonsense. You do not know what is that chemical. You prove yourself a rascal.

Paramahamsa: Well, we accept that we don't know, but we are trying to learn.

Prabhupada: Then if you don't know, why do you talk nonsense? First of all you know, then talk. That is science.

Amogha: But the way we built this civilization and technology...

Prabhupada: It is not civilization. It is animal. You are eating meat, and you are civilized? The tigers eat meat. The dogs eat meat. A human being, why should he eat meat?

Paramahamsa: But there are so many wonderful things taking place-brain transplants, and so many other things.

Prabhupada: That's all right. You are not civilized so long you are eating meat. You are dogs and cats and tigers, that's all. The tiger may be very strong animal, but it is not to be called that he is civilized. Nobody will say the tiger is civilized.

Amogha: But we have made airplanes and cars, and if we only waited until we knew, we never could have made it. But by trying...

Prabhupada: All right. You have made some technical advancement. That does not mean you are civilized. Civilized means the Aryans. They know what is the soul. That is civilization.

Paramahamsa: But we have seen in Eastern countries where the people don't eat meat, they are at the same time very primitive, very uncivilized, like savages.

Amogha: They don't have enough food.

Paramahamsa: No technology, no education.

Prabhupada: Because you have plundered them for the last two thousand years. [laughter] You rascals, rogues, you have plundered. You have taken all their money, all their jewels, all their gold, and made British Museum. [laughter] It is due to you. [squealing noise in background] What is this dog here? Some dog?

Paramahamsa: Oh, that's the sirens. You mean the sirens?

Prabhupada: No, no. Some bird?

Paramahamsa: Oh, yeah. Bird.

Amogha: I didn't see. But in Bhagavad-gita we claim that it is a fact scientifically that Krsna appeared on earth and so many things. But actually isn't it because we believe that the Bhagavad-gita is true that we think it is scientific? Because we believe it. But someone else would say, "I don't believe it, so for me it's not scientific."

Prabhupada: Why it is not scientific? If Bhagavad-gita says, annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg 3.14], by eating sufficient grains the living entity become flourished, so can you deny it?

Amogha: That must be true.

Prabhupada: Everything is true. If you think it properly, you'll find it is all true. Bhagavad-gita says, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg 4.13]: "By Me, the four divisions of human society are made." The most intelligent class, the brahmana, who knows the soul, God, etcetera, by their character, by their behavior, that is brahmana class. This is most perfect way of keeping society. Unless there is a class which is very intelligent, who know what is God, what is soul, then what is the civilization? Simply motorcar drivers? Is that civilization? Where is the brahmana? This is not civilization, simply some artisans and workers, motorcar drivers, mill workers. Where is civilized man, who knows God, who knows soul, who knows how to conduct the human society to the perfection? Where is that man? It is not civilization.

Paramahamsa: But we have philosophers and poets.

Prabhupada: They are all loafer class. [chuckling] They have no information of the soul. They are studying in the dead matter, that's all-Freud and others, Darwin. What do they know?

Amogha: There are also so many priests and rabbis, the Pope.

Prabhupada: But what do they know about the soul, about God? First thing is that there is a supreme authority. You are not independent. So if you do not know who is that supreme authority, what is the value of your knowledge? You have to accept there is a supreme authority, because you are not independent. But you do not know. Just like a rascal, he does not know about the government. What kind of man he is? He's a rascal. A civilized man means he knows what is government, what is the history of government. That is civilized man. And if he does not know what is government, he is simply living there, a third-class man. So you have to accept there is a government of the whole universal affair. But you do not know it. Then you are third-class man. You are not human being; you are animal. The animal does not know. This is the proof that you are animal, you are not human being. A human being, at least a class of man there must be, brahmana, brahma janati iti brahmanah, one who knows how things are going on. We know that. We Krsna conscious people, we know. Therefore we are civilized.

Ganesa: But the Bhagavad-gita, it was written five thousand years ago, so it doesn't pertain to today.

Prabhupada: No, it was not written. It was there. Then you do not read Bhagavad-gita. Why you are speaking like that? You know Bhagavad-gita? You have not studied Bhagavad-gita. That is a disgrace for you. You have read Bhagavad-gita?

Ganesa: A little.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Amogha: He says yes, a little.

Prabhupada: Then you do not know. Why he says that Bhagavad-gita was written five thousand years ago? Why do you say like that? You do not know. It was first spoken forty millions of years ago. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham... [Bg 4.1]. What kind of reader you are of Bhagavad-gita, you do not know? I am accusing you because you are student of Krsna consciousness. How you do not know?

Paramahamsa: I think he was posing as a materialist.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But one who does not know, why is he said that Bhagavad-gita was written five thousand years ago? He does not know. That is my point. If you had known, then you would not have said like that, foolishly, that Bhagavad-gita was spoken five thousand years. It is avyayam, it is eternally there. It is eternally there. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam. Avyayam means which is never under deterioration. It is eternally existing. That is avyayam. Just like atma, soul, avyayam. There is no deterioration. It is there. So, "Once, forty millions of years ago, once it was spoken, but in due course of time it is now lost; therefore I am speaking it again to you." You do not read Bhagavad-gita it is said there? How do you say it is written five thousand years ago? It is already there. "It was first spoken forty millions of years ago; now it is lost." That is..., the material world is like that. One thing is lost sometimes. "Therefore I am speaking to you." And "Why You are speaking to me?" "Because you are My devotee." This is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. That means only the devotees can understand Bhagavad-gita, and it is always existing, and because it is now lost... Just like we are putting Bhagavad-gita... Why am I stressing so much? It is lost, by the so-called Gandhis and Dr. Radhakrishnan. They have made it lost. Therefore we are stressing. The thing is there. We are simply trying to revive it again. It is not that it is the beginning. No. It is already there. But these rascals have made them lost. People do not understand it, do not follow it, that is the difficulty. So we are trying to revive it again. It is revival of the whole teaching. Permanent teaching. Permanent beneficial instruction. Now it is lost. Which way we shall go?

Ganesa: Straight ahead, Srila Prabhupada, there is another path.

Prabhupada: There is another path?

Paramahamsa: Another footpath, yes.

Prabhupada: This road is nice.

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Which way? This way or that way?

Amogha: This way is all right.

Prabhupada: All right.

Paramahamsa: The sun is this way.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is not that, five thousand years ago, not like that. Just like you cannot say the sun is now coming. It is there. It is there always; you are seeing now. They used to think like that-at night the sun is dead-these rascals. And they are advanced. They used to think that this earth is square, [laughing] these rascals. And they are advanced. They are changing their opinion daily. That is their scientific knowledge. Why they should change?

Amogha: They say this means they are discovering the truth, step by step.

Prabhupada: That means you do not know the truth. That is a fact. You do not know-simply speculating. You are accepting some spot, "This is truth," and after some days, "No, no, this is not truth, this is truth." This is their position.

Paramahamsa: Many of the scientific textbooks that were written twenty years ago are all outdated. Can't use them any more.

Prabhupada: Useless. So this scientific at the present moment, after twenty years they'll be useless. This is your scientific.

Amogha: But at least what we know now is more true than what we knew before. And if we keep trying, we'll know more.

Prabhupada: Yes, that means you are always in ignorance. This means that you are always in ignorance. And Krsna does not say like that. Krsna says, "The same thing I am speaking to you again." That means you are not in ignorance. We may forget something, but the truth is always the same. But you are making, manufacturing, discovering truth. That means you do not know what is truth. You should answer like that, that "You are all rascals. You do not know what is truth; therefore you are discovering truth. Truth is never discovered. It is already there. But you do not know what is that truth. That is credit that you are making advance towards truth, but you do not know what is truth. That is a fact." Is it clear? Making discoveries means you do not know what is truth. But it is good credit for you that you are trying to advance. That's it. That we agree.

Paramahamsa: So eventually, if we keep advancing like this, we'll understand the truth.

Prabhupada: No, you'll never advance. Your advance is so slow and foolish that you cannot.

Amogha: But some Indian history professors say...

Prabhupada: We are not talking of Indian history, we are talking of the whole truth. We never say it is Indian truth.

Amogha: But Bhagavad-gita has been presented in so many ways also, and now we are saying it is another way.

Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna says that "I am showing you the way how to understand Bhagavad-gita. You have to accept that." Not so many ways. Only that way. That I have explained in the Preface, that when you have to take a medicine, you have to take the direction: dose, such and such. Not that so many ways doses are prescribed. No. According to the prescription you have to take. Otherwise you will waste your time. [pause] Now they have wasted so much plates. What is the value of this? [referring to memorial plates on trees]

Amogha: Bhutejya.

Prabhupada: What benefit is there? A soldier has died. So what is the use of having a tree, having a plate?

Amogha: This will make us remember how much our countrymen...

Prabhupada: What benefit is there by remembering?

Paramahamsa: Well, the family feels honored that there is a tree here for that son of theirs.

Prabhupada: What benefit do they derive?

Paramahamsa: Well, they can come and see it, and...

Prabhupada: Do they think that man who has died is still there?

Amogha: Next time when there is a war, then they will feel more inclined to fight, knowing that there may be a tree for them. [laughs]

Prabhupada: It means this is government deceiving. The man is not there. And even if he is there, suppose the soldier, after dying for his country, has become a tree, [laughter] is it a very good reward? Just see their [indistinct]. How foolishly they are thinking. We have to point out their foolishness. That is our business. They are working very hard, undoubtedly, but they are working foolishly. Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8].

The result is that simply they are becoming tired. That's all. Because they are not working intelligently. Like monkey, he is busy all day. What is the value of that busy-ness? You'll find the monkey, he is never sitting idly. He's always busy, "erh, erh, erh" [imitating monkey]. [laughter] So what is the result of that busy-ness? He's a monkey. And they claim to be, they are coming from monkey, these rascals. So we can say that your monkey's quality is already there. [laughter] You have not improved more than monkey, because you are working uselessly. They are theorizing that you have come from monkey, and as soon as you say that "You are monkey," they become angry. Just see. They are claiming that we are coming from monkey. And if you say, "You are monkey, no better than monkey," then they are angry. Just see.

Paramahamsa: Well that's because we've advanced from the monkey stage up to the human stage.

Prabhupada: You have not advanced. If you are uselessly working, then you are monkey. Monkey is busy, but useless. There is no value. What is the value of your working? You cannot make a solution of the problem that you are dying. Then what is the use of your working? You do not like to die. Why you are dying? You are keeping memory of him because you wanted that he should not have died. That is your desire. You do not like to die. So where is the solution of your death? You might open many hospitals, but where is the solution of the disease, that there should be no more disease? That you cannot do. Therefore your so-called scientific research, working hard day and night, is all monkeys' business. Useless.

Paramahamsa: But we are seeing that even great spiritualists, they all get old and die also.

Prabhupada: That's all right. We are not talking of this body. We are talking of the soul. We say that soul transmigrate. So, instead of transmigrating to another this perishable body, we are transmigrating to the eternal body. That is our business. We are making solution. But you do not know. You are simply working like monkey, uselessly.

Paramahamsa: But we haven't seen that anyone has got...

Prabhupada: How you can see? You cannot see how the... You do not believe in transmigration, so how you can see? Pasyanti jnana-caksusa. Pasyanti jnana-caksusa. When you will have the eyes to see-knowledge-then you'll see. Now you are monkey, how you can see? A monkey cannot see. Pasyanti jnana caksusa. Just like our men in India, they know I have come to Australia. But he's not seeing by his eyes. He knows the arrangement was made: they purchased ticket, and they went to the airport. And they are confident. They are sending letters here. Has he come with me to see? How he knows? That I have come here, how he knows? He has not seen whether I have come here. But how he knows?

Ganesa: By hearing.

Prabhupada: That means there are other sources of understanding-not only the eyes. The rascals, they do not know. They want to see.

Paramahamsa: Of course, a person can never be completely sure...

Prabhupada: Therefore, jnana caksusa. You can see with knowledge how this man is being transferred to the eternal life. But you have no such knowledge. You are monkey. A monkey cannot see, a monkey cannot understand. Suppose there is a dog at my house. He does not understand how I have come here, because he has no knowledge. So seeing means knowledge. Seeing, not the eyes. He wants to see by the eyes. He's a monkey, that's all. He's a dog.

Paramahamsa: But first we have to believe it, and then we can see it?

Prabhupada: It is not the question of belief. It is a fact. It is a fact in this way, that Krsna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9]. That's all. You have to see through Krsna. Krsna is perfect. Krsna says that a such and such person, devotee, after giving up this body, he does not accept. That is seeing. Krsna says and you see. Just like you believe me. The father believes... A child believes the father. Similarly, if the authority is there, then you see by his word, that's all. That is knowledge. Seeing by knowledge, perfect knowledge-that is seeing. Not by endeavoring with these imperfect senses. That is not knowledge.

Paramahamsa: But in this modern age everyone is...

Prabhupada: Modern age means all rascals and fools. So we haven't got to follow the rascals and fools. You have to follow the most perfect: Krsna.

Paramahamsa: The problem is, everyone is cheating. Everyone is presenting some knowledge of this or that...

Prabhupada: Therefore we have accepted Krsna, who will not cheat. You are cheater; therefore you are believing cheaters. We do not cheat. We accept a person who does not cheat. That is the difference between you and me.

Ganesa: But we were all cheaters before we came to you, Srila Prabhupada. We were all cheaters. So how is it that we're not accepting a cheater? How is it that we cheaters have accepted some knowledge from you?

Prabhupada: Yes, because you are speaking what Krsna has said. He is not cheater. He is God. I am talking to you not that I am..., my own knowledge. I am presenting to you what Krsna has said. That's all. Therefore I am not cheater. I might have been a cheater, but since I am talking only the words of Krsna, then since then I am not cheater. Krsna says, vedaham samatitani [Bg 7.26]: "I know past, present and future." Therefore He is not cheater. But so far we are concerned, we do not know what was the past and what is future. And we do not know perfectly well the present also. And if we speak something, that is cheating. That is cheating. Our Krsna consciousness movement is that don't hear the cheaters and don't try to cheat others. Be honest and hear from the authority. This is Krsna consciousness. [pause]

Amogha: Srila Prabhupada? Why is it that some people, when they hear about Krsna consciousness, they take it, and some do not? And still, after that, some of those who take it, they stay, and some who take it take it for some time, and then they fail?

Prabhupada: That is fortunate and unfortunate. Just like one gets, inherits father's property, many millions dollars, and he has become a poor man by his misusing the money. Like that. He is unfortunate. He got the money, but he could not utilize it.

Jayadharma: Does fortune mean it's the mercy of Krsna, Srila Prabhupada? Does fortune mean that it's Krsna's mercy?

Prabhupada: Krsna's mercy is always there. It is your misuse of free will. You do not... You are given the opportunity-that is a fortune. But you do not accept the fortune. That is your misfortune. That is stated in Caitanya-caritamrita. Lord Caitanya, ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva [Cc Madhya 19.151]. Kono-some fortunate man can accept it. Because mostly they are unfortunate. Just see, throughout the whole of Europe and America we are making propaganda. How many students they have come? A very insignificant number, although they have come. They are fortunate.

Amogha: Sometimes we see that a devotee may be very sincere, but at the same time he becomes weak somehow, and he falls down.

Prabhupada: Even if he falls down, still he is fortunate, because the injection is there. It will act, some day or another. Still he is fortunate. As fortunate man he took it, but he fall down. But that does not mean he's unfortunate. Still he's fortunate, because the poison is already there. It will develop. That is called ajnata sukrti. Therefore he is not loser. He continues to be fortunate. It will take some time.

Amogha: So he became weak because he misused his individual will.

Prabhupada: He misused the instruction of his spiritual master. Therefore he became unfortunate, or he fell down. [pause] This is botanical garden?

Amogha: The sign says parking for botanic gardens. But I'm not acquainted with this. [pause]

[break] I don't know. It says, "Centenary. August 22, 1947." Perhaps its name is on the other side.

[pause] Is there going to be a world war very soon? We heard there would be.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Amogha: Then it will be a very different situation for preaching.

Prabhupada: Your preaching will not be stopped. It will go on.

[pause] [break] ...the car.

Amogha: He's bringing the car. He went back. He'll bring it around.

Prabhupada: What is written there?

Amogha: [reading sign] "The Tree Society originated the idea of placing this karri log in King's Park. The log, normally destined for milling, was provided and brought by Booning Brothers P.T. Limited from their Darling River saw-milling area. The felling, transporting and placing in position of this great log from over 200 miles from the depths of the forest, with each of the three sections borne on a 200 horsepower motor truck, was a major engineering feat and a tribute to the spirit of western Australian timber men. With the approval and assistance of the king's Park board, the actual placing of the log in King's Park by 25 June, 1958, was contributed to by Hume Pipe Co., Aaron Brothers, B.P. Australia Ltd, the Forests Department and other government departments. The completion of the project was a fine example of community effort."

Paramahamsa: It weighs a hundred and ten tons. And it's 363 years old, this log.

Prabhupada: It is lying for 363 years?

Amogha: They say it grew that long. In America we have some redwood trees in California they say are many thousands of years old.

Paramahamsa: This is a type of eucalyptus?

Amogha: It says Eucalyptus diversicolor.

Prabhupada: Bhagavata says, kim tarava na jivanti [SB 2.3.18]. You want to prolong your life. The trees, they do not prolong their life? So if you prolong your life, does it mean that you are better than tree? Kim tarava na jivanti. If prolonging life is your mission, the trees automatically do that without any scientific knowledge. Then what is the value of your science? Kim.... Just see how they have taken. Kim tarava na jivanti. Do they not live for thousands of years? What is the value of such living? If the tree is living here, standing for 10,000 years, then what is the value of this 10,000 years? So if you live like a tree, without any benefit, then what is the value of your life?

Jayadharma: Some people say that trees may be very happy. How do we know?

Prabhupada: If you want to become happy like that, be. Stand up. Stand up on the bench and laugh-be happy. [laughter]

Amogha: But they say we are humans; we can enjoy.

Prabhupada: What enjoy?

Amogha: Television, cinema, dancing...

Prabhupada: Yes, the dogs also dance and enjoy. The monkey also dance and enjoy.

Paramahamsa: But these animals, they're not intelligent enough to enjoy the higher...

Prabhupada: Why not intelligent? They are intelligent. Otherwise when the dogs jumps from here, and one man goes there and come here, he's enjoying. It is enjoyment. So you are doing like that.

Amogha: But we cook very nice food to eat.

Prabhupada: They also eat, according to their taste. The hogs, they eat stool; they enjoy it. So according to our calculation you are eating stool-the meat. And you are thinking you are enjoying, as the hog's thinking. That's all. It is a question of standard of enjoyment. Otherwise, enjoyment is there in every living sphere. [break]

[in car]

Prabhupada: But here is something relishable therefore we are chanting whole day and night we should take advantage of it. That is the difference between spiritual and material.

Paramahamsa: So that sounds very nice. If we chant Hare Krsna we can feel unlimited pleasure.

Prabhupada: Yes, otherwise how are we chanting... [indistinct]

Amogha: It sounds too simple to be true.

Paramahamsa: But maybe we can also, in addition to this unlimited pleasure, just to make sure we don't lose out on anything, we can also enjoy all these other pleasures.

Prabhupada: Yes, you are using this motorcar and chanting. You are working hard like an ass to get these motorcars. You'll get these by chanting.

Ganesa: Sometimes they say, Srila Prabhupada, that if everybody chants Hare Krsna, what shape would the world be in?

Prabhupada: They would get everything, and without any labor. Just see our example.

Paramahamsa: But they say that the only reason you are..., Hare Krsna movement is existing is because we are working and giving you the money.

Prabhupada: You must work. Because we are superior, you must work under us. [laughter] That will give you actually happiness, if you work under our direction. That is your duty. You are not carrying out your duty, therefore suffering. You work under our direction, you'll be happy.

Amogha: Then they say that every religion says the same thing, that if you follow them, then you will be happy. But they are all teaching differently. So...

Prabhupada: That's all right. Now try this. This is the latest. [laughter] You are after latest-this is the latest. [sings] Sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu daya...

Jayadharma: Sometimes people may say, Srila Prabhupada, that we're just trying to introduce the old caste system from India that never worked anyway.

Prabhupada: That caste system is already there. We are also..., we have got poor class, rich class. The Communists, they have also worker class, manager class, although the Communists against caste system. But I have seen, they have made this classification: worker class, manager class. Why do you make this? That is efficiency: leader class, follower class. Otherwise there will be chaos. That is natural.

Paramahamsa: The divisions of work are naturally there. You can't avoid it.

Prabhupada: Just like in your body there is class: the head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid, and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is in the Vedic mantra it is said-you are reading the other day-the brahmanas, they came out of the mouth; the ksatriyas, they came out of the arms; the vaisyas, they came out of the belt; and the sudras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Krsna says, "It is My creation." How you can avoid it? You cannot avoid anything which is created by Krsna. Just like sunshine. It is created by Krsna. You cannot say, "No, no. I don't want sunshine." That is foolishness. If you want to avoid, then you'll suffer. The sunshine is here, and if you go into the dark place and cover yourself from the sunshine, you will suffer. That's all. The sun may not suffer-you'll suffer. Similarly, Krsna says that "This caste system is created by Me." If you don't accept it, then you'll suffer. Krsna will not suffer.

[leaves car] ...introducing the caste system, we are introducing a system which, we follow, you'll be happy. Not caste system. Hare Krsna.

Devotee: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. [end]