740401MW.BOM
740401MW.BOM
Morning Walk
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April 1, 1974, Bombay
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April 1, 1974, Bombay
740401MW-BOMBAY [52:10 Minutes]
The body and mind is made of material nature
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Chandobhai: ...proktam adhidaivam kim ucyate.
adhiyajnah katham ko 'tra
dehe 'smin madhusudana prayana-kale ca katham jneyo 'si niyatatmabhih [Bg 8.2] Very important.
Prabhupada: Yes. So these are the questions. So the answer will be there.
Dr. Patel: Param Brahman is aksara.
Prabhupada: Aksara? First of all try to understand. Aksara... Aksara means "that does not fall down." That is aksara. Aksara and ksara. The spiritual world is aksara, and this material world is ksara. So the living entities or God in the spiritual world, they are all aksara. And in the material world we are all ksara. Therefore aksaram paramam brahma. The Supreme...
Chandobhai: Svabhavo 'dhyatmam.
Prabhupada: Svabhavam.
Dr. Patel: Sva means "own."
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Bhava means...? Bhava [Gujarati]? Essence, essence.
Prabhupada: Sva-bhavah means nature.
Dr. Patel: Nature. Sva-bhavah...
Chandobhai: Adhyatmam.
Dr. Patel: Adhi-atma. That is the...
Chandobhai: That is real bhava.
Prabhupada: Adhyatma. Adhyatma means bodily and mentally.
Chandobhai: Ah, bodily and mentally, yes.
Dr. Patel: Adhyatma? Bodily and mentally?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: Mentally. Spiritually... Inner existence.
Prabhupada: No. Adhyatmam. Adhyatma. Atma means body, mind and the soul, but here adhyatma means the body and the mind. That is material nature. The body and mind is made of material nature.
Chandobhai: Body and mind. Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...creation.
Chandobhai: Creation, yes.
Prabhupada: So by working with the body, we create another creation.
Prabhupada: Just like now I am human being. Next life I may be a demigod, I may be a dog. That I, creation. That is sarga.
Dr. Patel: That is karma.
Chandobhai: That is his karma. That is his karma.
Dr. Patel: What is karma?
Prabhupada: Karma, anyone can understand. As you... Fruitive activities. You do something and enjoy the good or bad result. That is karma. You do something, either good or bad. So the result you'll have to suffer or enjoy.
Dr. Patel: But here is a very big question. I'm very sorry to... Who does the karma? Unless and until we have got ahaṅkara in that, then...
Prabhupada: The ahaṅkara is there, false ahaṅkara. You are thinking that "I am ksatriya." That is false ahaṅkara.
Dr. Patel: That is what I said. So doer is that. Ahaṅkara is the doer.
Prabhupada: That ahaṅkara...
Dr. Patel: Then it is karma. Not otherwise.
Prabhupada: As soon as you come to the material world, the ahaṅkara is there, that "I... I belong to India," "I belong to America," "I belong to brahmana community," "...ksatriya..." The ahaṅkara is there. Ahaṅkara-vimudhatma. So long this ahaṅkara is there, "I am this, I am that," all bodily concept.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But this karma. Here is the question of karma.
Prabhupada: The karma... Karma means he is doing, but every, everyone is doing in his own way. Nobody..., nobody cares to understand the instruction of Krsna. Everyone is doing in his own way. That is karma.
Prabhupada: Ah, that will be explained. Karma, akarma, yes. [break] ...the same, material. Ksara. Ksara bhavah. That is perishable.
Chandobhai: Perishable.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: Purusas cadhidaivatam.
Prabhupada: Purusa. Purusa means the soul.
Chandobhai: Soul. Jiva.
Prabhupada: Yes, the jiva. Purusa adhidaivatam. Then?
Prabhupada: Adhiyajnah means Paramatma.
Dr. Patel: Adhidaiva means jiva.
Prabhupada: No.
Chandobhai: No, no. Adhidaiva, purusa.
Prabhupada: Adhidaiva, jiva. Adhiyajna, Paramatma.
Dr. Patel: That is what I said.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: Adhiyajna is... [break]
Prabhupada: Karma means which produces result, and akarma means which does not produce result. So that they do not know.
Chandobhai: And the vikarma.
Prabhupada: Just like these activities, devotional service, it does not produce any result. And the ordinary man... Suppose they are also selling books. An ordinary man also selling books, it appears to be the same. But they are not creating any result. But ordinary bookseller, he's creating his result, papa-punya. That is karma and akarma. And vikarma. Vikarma means against the...
Chandobhai: Vikrta karma.
Prabhupada: Yes, vikrta.
Chandobhai: Vikrta, against sastra.
Dr. Patel: Although the actions which are prohibitory...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ...and if we do it, it is vikarma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: Adhiyajno 'ham evatra dehe deha-bhrtam vara. Isvara, isvara.
Prabhupada: Isvara.
Prabhupada: ...important thing, mam, Krsna. They practice it, always remembering Krsna. Then at the end of life, ante narayana-smrti. That is perfection of life. But how one will remember ante, then? There is a verse of... Just wait.
Prabhupada: No. Just wait. There is a verse by Kulasekhara. Kulasekhara. Adyaiva visatu me manasa-raja-hamsah [MM 33], he says. He says, "My Lord..." The idea is that "Now I am in quite fit order. So let me remember You and die. Because at the end of... At the end of... Kapha-pitta-vayu, there will be disorder. Smaranam kutas te. At that time, it is..."
Dr. Patel: How can there be the smarana?
Prabhupada: Yes. "Therefore, my Lord, I pray that adyaiva, immediately, because now I am fit."
Dr. Patel: Right now.
Prabhupada: Right now. "Now I am fit. So let me remember You and die." So one must be fit. You see, even in daily, in dream, while sleeping, we forget so many things. Everything we forget.
Chandobhai: Yes.
Prabhupada: So at the time of death, when everything is disordered, nothing is in order, unless one is very strongly practiced, how he can remember?
Dr. Patel: My father spoke om, and he stopped breathing and...
Prabhupada: That's nice. Om, om ity eka... That is...
Dr. Patel: Then he stopped breathing.
Prabhupada: Then he practiced. That means he practiced. Therefore, either you practice om or Hare Krsna, that is all right.
Dr. Patel: Whatever we do of our whole, all our whole, all day of life, it comes at the end. That is why you must continue to do for the life.
Prabhupada: Twenty-four hours. Kirtaniyah sada harih . Always Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna... In this way practicing, if somebody is fortunate enough, he can remember.
Dr. Patel: Esa brahmi sthitih partha na... Sthitvasyam anta-kale 'pi brahma-nirvanam rcchati [Bg 2.72].
Prabhupada: So...
Dr. Patel: Therefore at the last moment you... But you can't get that last moment in this position, because you have, whole life, you have...
Prabhupada: Yes, you have spoiled your life simply in material activities, how you can remember?
Dr. Patel: But even if you are doing material activity by your body, and by your mental activities you are bhaja krsna...
Prabhupada: But you are under the body. Prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg 3.27]. Body and mind is working. Unless you practice to be above body and mind... That is bhakti-yoga. Mam cavyabhicarini-bhakti-yoga..., sa gunan samatitya [Bg 14.26]. You cannot expect that you go on doing all these material activities and at the time of death you'll remember Krsna. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: That can't be done.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Chandobhai: Should be a real concentrated difference
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: When you do the work, you should be a real concentration.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Chandobhai: Therefore there is no... Because your attachment is more to the...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: ...reserves of that...
Chandobhai: Mad-bhaktah.
Prabhupada: Man-maya mad-asritah. Unless he takes shelter of Krsna, these things are not possible. Simply by talking it is not possible. There must be practice.
Chandobhai: Acaropanam.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit]
Prabhupada: There is a risk. Yam yam vapi. If you are thinking of dog, then you become a dog.
Dr. Patel: Just as Bharata did it.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, that is example. Even Bharata Maharaja, such a great personality, simply due to little affection to a cub of deer, he became a deer. So these people are attached to so many things. So how much risk is there at the time of death they do not understand. Therefore Krsna says, mam ekam.
Prabhupada: Mam ekam: Then you...
Dr. Patel: Therefore every time, every moment...
Prabhupada: That is... This is stressed. If you...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Yudhya means "do your activity."
Prabhupada: Yes. But always think. Just like these people are..., these, they are doing that. They are doing their duty. Somebody's going to there, somebody's going there, somebody's there. But their chanting is there. That is not avoided. That is not avoided. Sada tad bhava-bhavitah [Bg 8.6]. Then Krsna favors, "Yes, he has done his best."
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dr. Patel: Yudhya ca. Yudhya ca.
Prabhupada: Ah. Asamsayah. Because his mind is in Krsna, it doesn't matter he's fighting. Fighting is superfluous. Real thing is mind is in Krsna.
Dr. Patel: That is bhramara-nyaya.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Bhramara-nyaya. Because the small ant... [break]
Chandobhai: ...nanya-gamina.
Dr. Patel: Abhyasa-yoga, by... We explained that...
Prabhupada: One... Abhyasa-yoga... You practice this. Therefore we say, "You must chant at least sixteen rounds." This is abhyasa-yoga. When one becomes attached to chanting, he doesn't require to be under discipline. But so long he's not practiced, he must be under... Just like a boy, he's instructed by the teacher, "You must give me at least four page handwriting." So four page handwriting means writing, writing, he'll be practiced. So therefore these are the practice. You must...
Chandobhai: Nanya-gamina.
Prabhupada: Nanya-gamina. Because cetah is..., mind is very flickering. So unless you fix up your mind under some regulative principle, then it is not possible. [indistinct] Everyone becomes paramahamsa: "Oh, I am now advanced. I do not require all these regulative principles."
Dr. Patel: What is paramahamsa?
Prabhupada: Yes. Paramam purusam divyam yati.
Dr. Patel: Parthanucintayan. By thinking about... [break] ...there's a mind set.
Prabhupada: Smartavyah satato visnuh. Therefore one has to think of Visnu always, twenty-four hours, in so many ways.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: Anor aniyan anusmared yah, sarvasya dhataram acintya-rupam...
Prabhupada: This is the description of the param.
Prabhupada: ...varna. That is... Aditya-varna means self-effulgent. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti [Bs 5.40].
That is aditya-varna. Aditya is never in darkness.
Chandobhai: Prayana-kale manasacalena...
Dr. Patel: Prayana-kale manasacalena. Acalena.
Prabhupada: Again... Acalena. Acalena means he has been practiced to fix his mind to Krsna. Then, if he's successful, the prayana-kale, he must remember.
Chandobhai: Yes, yes. Here. Bhaktya yukto yoga-balena caiva.
Prabhupada: Yoga. Bhaktya. That is the bhakti-yoga. Not otherwise.
Prabhupada: Ah. [aside:] Hare Krsna.
[break] ...they meditate all the life, the so-called yogis. Something impersonal... Some light, like this, like that. Light may be also, if that Brahman light. But here it is specifically mentioned...
Dr. Patel: Especially spontaneously you feel some light...
Prabhupada: That's all right, Brahman light. But the Brahman light, according to Bhagavata philosophy, even one enters in the Brahman effulgence, still he falls down. Still he falls down. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah anadhrta-yusmad-aṅghrayah [SB 10.2.32].
Unless one is fixed up in the personal form of the Lord, there is chance of falling down. They fall down actually. We have seen so many sannyasis. Just like at the present moment, Karpatri. He's now busy in politics.
Dr. Patel: One man married in America, some sannyasi.
Chandobhai: Citrabhanu, Citrabhanu.
Dr. Patel: Citrabhanu, or... [break]
Prabhupada: ...one is God.
Bhagavata: Citrabhanu.
Chandobhai: Citrabhanu, yes.
Bhagavata: Brahmananda Swami met him in Mombasa, Srila Prabhupada, and he was speaking all this nonsense. Then he went to America... [break]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: Tat te padam saṅgrahena pravaksye. Now He will tell us in saṅgraha...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Chandobhai: ...that padam.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is Goloka dhama.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna. Yes. Yad aksaram veda-vido vadanti [Bg 8.11]. That means impersonal. Veda-vido, one who knows Vedas.
Chandobhai: Visanti yad yatayo vita-ragah.
Prabhupada: Then?
Chandobhai: You see, now He tells all the practice of the yoga.
sarva-dvarani samyamya
mano hrdi-nirudhya ca murdhny adhayatmanah pranam asthito yoga-dharanam [Bg 8.12] Prabhupada: Yes, that's... Artificially you cannot samyama. If your mind is not fixed up, artificially you cannot make. Therefore Krsna says, yoginam api sarvesam mad gata... [Bg 6.47]. One who is thinking of Krsna, he is perfect yogi.
Chandobhai: But he has to be yogi at that time, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Yes. Sarva-dvarani samyamya. Just like these boys, they do not go to see cinema, they do not go to restaurant. This is sarva-dvarani samyamya. You see? They do not go to anywhere except in the temple. They do not talk anything nonsense, except Krsna. This is sarva-dvarani samyamya.
Dr. Patel: They should not talk anything else except Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane [SB 9.4.18]. So this is sam... Unless you give engagement to the senses, proper, how you can control it? Your eyes want to see beautiful man or woman. [aside:] Hare Krsna. But when you are captivated by seeing the Deity of Krsna and Radha, then it's..., that eyes being engaged otherwise is stopped. That has been explained by Prabodhananda Sarasvati,
Protkhata-damstrayate. Protkhata means extracted, the poison tree. The poison tree of the tee..., uh, teeth of the snake is dangerous. Now, here is a snake. Everyone is afraid, "Oh, snake! Snake! Snake!" But if everyone knows that his poison teeth have been taken away, then there is no more danger. Similarly, these indriyas have been compared with the kala-sarpa-patali. Kala-sarpa-patali. But...
Dr. Patel: What do you call?
Prabhupada: Kala, kala-sarpa means the dead-poisonous snake, kala-sarpa-patali. Everyone knows. As soon as you use some indriya, there is some dangerous result. Trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah [SB 7.9.45]. Take for... [break]
Dr. Patel: Om is God or Krsna.
Prabhupada: Om, yes. Krsna says, pranavah sarva-vedesu. Pranavah sarva-vedesu.
Chandobhai: That is om in that way.
Prabhupada: Because om means Krsna. That is mam.
Dr. Patel: I told you.
Prabhupada: When one chanting om, if he remembers just the om is Krsna, then he's successful. Mam. Om ity ekaksaram...
Chandobhai: Om ity ekaksaram brahma.
Dr. Patel: It is ekaksara brahma.
Chandobhai: Vyaharan mam.
Prabhupada: Vyaharan mam. If he knows...
Prabhupada: Anusmara. If he knows that omkara is Krsna, then he's successful. If he thinks that omkara is something else than Krsna, then he's not successful.
Chandobhai:
Prabhupada: So there is no need of doing this or that. Simply always remember Krsna. That is the conclusion.
Chandobhai:
Prabhupada: That is samsiddhi. They are mahatmas, those who are always remembering Krsna. They are mahatmas. Not by the red dress. No, that is not mahatma. Even in white dress you can become. If you always chant and remember Krsna, you become mahatma.
Dr. Patel: Mam eti janardana.
Prabhupada: No.
Chandobhai: Mam evaiti kaunteya punar janma na vidyate.
Prabhupada: A-brahma-bhuvanal lokah... Within this material world, these persons who are doing pious activities, they are promoted to the higher planetary system. But even if you go to the Brahmaloka-that is the highest-where you can get millions of years your life duration, but still, ksine punye martya-lokam visanti [Bg 9.21], you have to come back.
Prabhupada: Now He explaining what is Brahmaloka. That one day of Brahma, you cannot calculate. And still, you have to die.
Dr. Patel: Twelve hundred yugas is called one brahma...
Chandobhai: So our hundred years is nothing for...
Prabhupada: It is nothing.
Chandobhai: It is a moment only.
Dr. Patel: Twelve hundred yugas.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Not twelve hundred yugas. One thousand yugas. One thousand. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmano viduh [Bg 8.17].
Dr. Patel: Sahasra-yuga means four yugas, [Hindi] like that...
Prabhupada: That... Four yugas multiplied by one thousand.
Dr. Patel: By one thousand.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Four thousand.
Prabhupada: So four yuga means forty-three lakhs of years. Now, add three zeroes. Forty-three lakhs of years, add three zeroes. Then how many?
Dr. Patel: About four, about... Car...
Prabhupada: Eh? Forty-three lakhs, as...
Dr. Patel: Car ardha...
Prabhupada: Forty-three, eight zeroes.
Dr. Patel: Car... [Gujarati]
Prabhupada: This is Brahma's twelve days, uh, twelve hours.
Dr. Patel: Ratri. [Gujarati]
Chandobhai: Why not... There's a little question to ask: What are the Pitrloka, Martyaloka and this...?
Prabhupada: They are planets.
Chandobhai: And the Brahmaloka and all the...?
Prabhupada: Yes. They are different... Just like Candraloka, Suryaloka, Vayuloka.
Chandobhai: What is that Pitrloka actually?
Prabhupada: Pitrloka means the... There is a..., called a Pitrloka.
Chandobhai: But then in the Pitrloka is it maybe that, there may be remembrances of the [indistinct] and all these things or...
Prabhupada: No, these are all material.
Dr. Patel: Pitrloka [Gujarati]. They are all your past pitrs.
Chandobhai: No, let [indistinct] from him.
Prabhupada: Pitrn yanti... Devan yanti... What is that? Deva... Pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg 9.25]. So those who are just like fond of performing sraddhas, karma-kanda, they go to the Pitrloka.
Dr. Patel: We are all, I mean, ordained to perform sraddha, all Vaisnavas.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, Vaisnavas do not do so.
Dr. Patel: We are... We, all are, all of us, are we not doing...
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: ...sraddha ceremony...
Prabhupada: The Vaisnava, Vaisnava has no duty except serving Krsna. That's all.
Dr. Patel: That's right. But a Vaisnava family...
Prabhupada: No.
Chandobhai: Grhasthas, grhasthas.
Dr. Patel: Grhasthas.
Prabhupada: He, whatever he may be. That is stated. That is stated that...
Dr. Patel: Only Jains can do.
Prabhupada: That is stated that pitrnam. No, what is that verse? Devarsi-bhutapta-nrnam-pitrnam [SB 11.5.41].
We are... Just like we are indebted to our forefathers, family, similarly we are indebted to devas, the demigods. Just like the sun is supplying light. So we are indebted. Deva, rsi, to big great, big, big, saintly rsis. They have given us the sastras. Devarsi, devarsi bhuta... Bhuta, ordinary living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. And another, horse, is giving me service. So devarsi-bhuta apta, relatives. We take so much help from relatives.
Devarsi-bhutapta-nrnam, ordinary human being. Pitrnam: and the pitrs. So we are debted to so many. If you want to clear up the debts, it will take millions of births. [laughter] So devarsi-bhutapta-nrnam-pitrnam nayam kiṅkara na rni ca rajan [SB 11.5.41]. This man is neither servant nor indebted. Who? Sarvatmana yah saranam mukundam: one who has taken... That Krsna says, that "You just surrender to Me. I will protect you." So if he does not do anything else... One may think that he is being entangled in sinful activities because he does not do other duties. But Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg 18.66].
So one who has taken shelter, full shelter unto Krsna, he doesn't require to do any so-called social, political and other duties. He doesn't require.
Dr. Patel: And here He means... He's about those pralaya. Bhuta-gramah sa evayam bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg 8.19].
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Ratry-agame avasah partha prabhavaty ahar-agame.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. When we...
Prabhupada: That is the spiritual world. That is the spiritual...
Dr. Patel: Yah sa sarvesu bhutesu nasyatsu na vinasyati. That is purna brahma.
Prabhupada: That is spiritual world. That is spiritual world, beyond this material world. So they have no information what is that spiritual world. Therefore it is said that... Here it is going on, pralaya, anya pralaya. During Brahma's night, there is dissolution. Again creation. And when Brahma dies, there is another dissolution. That is going on. But paras tasmat, above this creation and dissolution, there is another nature. That is sanatana. That is eternal.
Dr. Patel: Yah sa sarvesu bhutesu nasyatsu na vinasyati...
Prabhupada: Ah, so why the...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Paramam mama. Now, again, He's come to mama. "That dhama is mama, Mine."
Dr. Patel: Purusah sa parah partha...
Prabhupada: And that mama...
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhaktya labhya ananyaya. Not ordinarily.
Dr. Patel: Purusa...
Prabhupada: Ananya bhaktya.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I am repeating: purusah sa parah partha bhaktya labhyas tv anyaya.
Prabhupada: That, the predominating Deity in that sanatana world, spiritual world, is purusa, a person. Purusa, a person. And He is achieved, bhaktya ananya. Not by mix-mixing this, mixing that; "This is also good. This is also good." No. He cannot. Bhaktya ananyaya.
Dr. Patel: Yasyantah-sthani bhutani...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...yena sarvam idam tatam.
Prabhupada: Tatam. That purusa is spread all over.
Chandobhai: But He's not Krsna. He is Krsna also.
Prabhupada: Yes, He is Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Yasyantah-sthani bhutani.
Prabhupada: All Vaikuntha-pati, Narayana, Narayana.
Dr. Patel: Just as [indistinct] saw a whole world within the mouth of Bala Mukunda.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Within the body of Bala Mukunda.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Yasyantah-sthani bhutani yena sarvam idam tatam.
That is the...
Prabhupada: This is material calculation.
Dr. Patel: Agnir jyotir ahah suklah san-masa uttarayanam... Prabhupada: Then He assures, assures Arjuna that "You are assured. Your coming to Me is assured."
Dr. Patel: [Gujarati]
dhumo ratris tatha krsnah
san-masa daksinayanam tatra candramasam jyotir yogi prapya nivartate [Bg 8.25] Prabhupada: This is material calculation.
Dr. Patel:
sukla-krsne gati hy ete
jagatah sasvate mate ekaya yaty anavrttim anyayavartate punah That is... Now you come.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is the position. Sarvesu kalesu. Not that sometimes here and sometimes there. That will take long time. But unless one comes to sarvesu kalesu, always thinking of Krsna...
Dr. Patel: Vedesu yajnesu tapahsu caiva danesu yat-punya-phalam pradistam...
Dr. Patel: Yajnesu.
vedesu yajnesu tapahsu caiva
danesu yat-punya-phalam pradistam atyeti tat sarvam idam viditva yogi param sthanam upaiti cadyam [Bg 8.28] Prabhupada: Yes. If one understands that all these pious activities, charity, performance of sacrifices and so many other things only by Krsna bhakti can be achieved, then he's assured.
Dr. Patel: This is the last word.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...yuktena. Now just this woman is carrying a load on her head, how she's keeping balance? He cannot do that.
Dr. Patel: That is Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said. No, no, that is not Indira Gandhi. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said the same thing as you say...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...that she should remain...
Prabhupada: It is not Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. This is sastric.
Dr. Patel: While we're talking about all these things, but the mind is in the Lord there. Their mind is on the Lord.
Bhagavata: Prabhupada, can you tell us maybe something about Lord Ramacandra's activities?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Bhagavata: Can you tell us some things about Lord Ramacandra's activities, today being Rama-Navami?
Prabhupada: Now, you can..., some of you can speak about Lord Ramacandra. No? Dr. Patel, you can speak something about...
Dr. Patel: About what?
Bhagavata: Lord Ramacandra's activities. [break]
Prabhupada: ...taran niyamena tisthan. [break] God is not obliged to accept your direction. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: God will not oblige the brahmanas unfortunately. He'll oblige only the ksatriyas. I don't know why.
Prabhupada: Because He comes: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg 4.8]. That is ksatriya's business. Sadhu protection [Hindi]. This is ksatriya's business. God has got two business: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. If you want to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gita, it is difficult. [laughs] It is not possible. He says that "I have got two business: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam, dharma-samsthapanarthaya..." Unless these two things are there, there cannot be establishment of real law and order. [break] ...everywhere, law and order. In spiritual also. Unless there is law and order, it is chaos. Law and order must be there.
Dr. Patel: Society came into existence after the evolution of the civilization.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Society came into existence after the evolution of the proper civilization. Before, when... [break]
Prabhupada: ...civilization begins when the society is organized. Otherwise, it's cats' and dogs' civilization. That is not civilization. Unless... Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman [Cc Madhya 8.58]. The society becomes perfect when the members of the society can understand that this human body is meant for satisfying Visnu. That is the beginning of organized society. So long they do not know that, that is animal society. Because the animals, they do not know that.
Dr. Patel: Shall we go back?
Prabhupada: Yes. The animals, they do not know.
[break] They do not know it, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme, Visnu." So unless the society comes to this consciousness, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme," that is not human society. Now, how they will understand? Therefore four divisions.
Prabhupada: Guna... Yes. So if the four divisions work nicely, then it is healthy society. Otherwise it is not. If different parts of your body work nicely, then you are healthy.
Dr. Patel: Each section of the society has to, I mean, work as a...
Prabhupada: For the maintenance.
Dr. Patel: ...part of the whole.
Prabhupada: Whole, yes. That doesn't matter whether you are sudra or brahmana. Your aim should be how to develop Krsna consciousness. Then it is perfect.
ya imam purusam saksad
atma-prabhavam isvaram na bhajanty abhijananti sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah [SB 11.5.3] Dr. Patel: They fall down from their own position.
Prabhupada: Yes. It doesn't matter whether a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya, sudra. If you are conscious that "I have to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to my capacity of work," then he'll [not] fall down. He'll [not] fall down.
[break] ...fall down from the position, then it is dead society. It is not living society, at the present moment. Yes. If you don't find actual brahmana, don't find actual ksatriya, don't find actual vaisya, so all sudras, and there is no guide; therefore chaotic condition.
[break] ...ship without rudder? What is called? Yes. So they do not know what is the aim of life. Ask any leader.
The leader, he says, "No, this aim of life is to drink and enjoy. That's all." This is going on. After diplomacy, politics, when they are tired, they go to the hotel or club and enjoy and drink. That's all. This is their aim of life. [break] ...there are even shops they indulge all these things, topless, bottomless, like that. Because that is the only solace to this materialistic life. There is no other. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. That is their... They have no other pleasure except that sex life. They have no information that there is another pleasure. That, they..., they are not educated. So they must come to the sex life only.
Dr. Patel: I think this has become very wild after the Second World War.
Prabhupada: No, no. It is always there. It is always there. That is material world. Material world means that, sex life. That's all. And if you increase it, then you increase your material life more and more. Therefore the process is tapasa brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. The brahmacarya is so much stressed. Tapasa brahmacaryena samena damena va, tyagena saucena yamena niyamena va. This is the process of human life. Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye [SB 5.5.1].
This human body is not meant for working hard like pigs for sense gratification. So they have been taught to become pigs. No discrimination of sex. The pig has no discrimination. So they have been taught. Not... When it is in sastra, that means it is from the very beginning. A class of men are like pigs and hogs there are, always. So therefore Rsabhadeva is forbidding His sons, that "This human form of life is not to waste like the pigs and hogs." Then what? Tapasa. Tapo divyam putrakah...
Dr. Patel: Rsabhadeva's hundred sons.
Dr. Patel: Eighty-one sons. Eighty-one sons.
Prabhupada: Jaya. It is... Human life is meant for tapasya, but where is tapasya? They are simply teaching, "Yes, here is contraceptive method. Take." No... Wine shop...
Dr. Patel: They give it free of charge on the street.
Prabhupada: Yes. So there is no question of tapasya now. Therefore the whole population is pigs, hogs and dogs. How you can expect peace and prosperity in this society? That is not possible. It is a society of pigs and hogs. Sva-vid... Sva-vid-varaha ustra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh. If somebody says, "If the..., it is a society of pigs and hogs, then what about these leaders?"
Dr. Patel: They are bigger hogs and pigs.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's all. That is stated: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. He's also a big pasuh. That's all. Otherwise, how he can dare to say that "Bhajana is nuisance"? Because it is pasuh. He's not even human being. Otherwise how he dares say like that? [break] ...reply that dacoit. If I reply, then I have to call him, "You are a pasuh."
Dr. Patel: And he told me...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...Giriraja, that he wants to reply separately. [break]
Prabhupada: ...why...
Dr. Patel: His confidence.
Prabhupada: No. Their reply is murkhasya lathausadhih. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...margam?
Prabhupada: Murkhasya lathausadhih. It is very... [break] ...from this movement.
Dr. Patel: I have not read that letter.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: Which way it has come? Which way, that letter? [break]
Prabhupada: ...barking, what is the use of arguing with him?
Indian man (1): No, I have not read it.
Dr. Patel: No, we have not read. I don't know how it came to your...
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...talking of this letter of commissioner.
Dr. Patel: Oh, commissioner. [break]
Prabhupada: They, because today's Rama-navami they're taking bath?
Dr. Patel: Yes, they are taking bath. [break]
Prabhupada: ...says that "Why don't you go to the forest?"
Dr. Patel: But that somebody must have told you.
Prabhupada: No, no. One of the important men. What is the name of that...?
Giriraja: Yogendrabhai.
Prabhupada: Yogendrabhai. Yes. He's Yogendra. Yogi.
Dr. Patel: Yogendra Patel.
Prabhupada: Yes. Here is the sample of yogi. Krsna says, imam rajarsayo viduh. Imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg 4.2], and a yogi says that "Go to the forest." Eh? The rajarsis are in the forest?
Dr. Patel: This is a mudha. [break]
Prabhupada: [aside:] Hare Krsna.
[break] ...garland, this girl. Garland just like beads.
Satsvarupa: Make a garland out of stone?
Prabhupada: Yes. Not stone.
Satsvarupa: Shells.
Prabhupada: They are conchshells, small conchshells. They are called gunja, gunja. They are called gunja? [break]
Indian man (1): ...aham yogi nikitana.[?] So what is that? Can you give me some light on that?
Prabhupada: Yes. Karma-yogi means one who does everything for Krsna. He's karma-yogi.
Indian man (1): One who does everything for...?
Prabhupada: For Krsna.
Indian man (1): For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Just like you are doing, doing some work. For whom you are doing?
Indian man (1): For my own benefit.
Prabhupada: That's all. That is karma. But when you do the same thing for Krsna, that is karma-yoga.
Indian man (1): But [Hindi], if you do it for others, for Krsna, for Krsna's...
Prabhupada: Others... Others means... That is also a humbug. You cannot do anything for others. You do everything for yourself. That is a false propaganda. You see? That is humbugism. So either you can do for yourself or for Krsna. That's all.
Indian man (1): I see.
Dr. Patel: [Gujarati]
Prabhupada: [break] ...become a slogan nowadays. Nobody does for others. "For others," "For the poor," these are all humbug.
Indian man (1): You see people are doing so many hospitals, that is for others?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is also punya-karma.
Indian man (1): [Hindi] Helping these temples, hospitals...?
Prabhupada: Yes. Temple construction is different from hospital construction. That is for Krsna.
Indian man (1): But suppose somebody's doing hospitals. Is it not for others?
Prabhupada: Yes. But how many you can give shelter? A few. There are so many suffering people. You cannot provide hospital for all of them. The hospitals are increasing, and the disease also increasing.
Indian man (1): No, as you say that doing for others is humbug.
Prabhupada: No, no. Humbug means he cannot do it.
Indian man (1): Accha.
Prabhupada: He cannot do it. He can do to his satisfaction only. That is... That is also for his satisfaction.
Indian man (1): I see.
Prabhupada: Because by opening hospital, you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. Then what you are doing for the others? That is for your satisfaction. Try to understand. Because you cannot do anything, but still, you are wasting your time. That is for your satisfaction.
Indian man (1): Naturally for myself.
Prabhupada: Yes. [aside:] Hare Krsna. You cannot do anything. The hospitals are increasing, beds are increasing, and the diseases are increasing. Then what can you do?
Indian man (1): We can do our own satisfaction.
Prabhupada: That's all. [break] ...done not meant for Krsna, that is for his own satisfaction. Just like Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent: "No, no, Krsna. I cannot kill my kinsmen." That is a good proposal. But that was his satisfaction.
Indian man (1): That is very correct.
Prabhupada: Yes. That was his satisfaction. But Krsna wanted that "You must fight." And when he agreed to that, that is his perfection. Before that, he was trying to satisfy he.
Indian man (1): Yes. When he surrendered to Krsna, that was his...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the only purpose of life. Anything that is done, that is useless waste of time. Therefore Krsna particularly said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vra... [Bg 18.66]. That ekam. You try to satisfy Krsna only. That will give you perfection. Otherwise your own satisfaction, that's all.
Indian man (1): Yes, very correct, very correct.
Prabhupada: Whatever you do, that is your satisfaction. That is karma.
Indian man (1): But not yogi.
Prabhupada: No, karma.
[break] ...for your own sense satisfaction, that is karma. And if you do it for Krsna's satisfaction, that is karma-yoga.
Makhanlal: Pure bhakti and karma-yoga are considered to be exactly the same?
Prabhupada: Exactly the same. Pure bhakti is above karma-yoga. Pure bhakti is above karma-yoga.
Bhagavata: That is the difference between the Chapter "Karma-yoga" and "Karma-yoga in Krsna Consciousness."
Prabhupada: Yes. Pure..., pure devotion means sravanam kirtanam. [break]
Indian man (1): I read fifteen percent power cut from today in the state. They have not able to do the service in electric. [break]
Prabhupada: ...cut, cent per cent. [break]
Makhanlal: ...you're performing, that is the vaidhi-bhakti stage of...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Makhanlal: ...of the sadhana-bhakti, the regulative principles?
Prabhupada: Yes, vaidhi-bhakti means regulative principles, and when you are accustomed, automatically you perform, that is raga-bhakti.
Makhanlal: So vaidhi-bhakti is considered superior to karma-yoga then.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Makhanlal: Vaidhi-bhakti is considered superior to karma-yoga.
Prabhupada: No. Karma-yoga is better.
Makhanlal: Karma-yoga is better?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yasomatinandana: Pure bhakti is superior.
Prabhupada: Pure bhakti is sravanam kirtanam. Sravanam kirtanam visnu-smaranam pada-sevanam, that is pure bhakti. [break]
Yasomatinandana: ...formed by anybody.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasomatinandana: Karma-yoga.
Prabhupada: Unless one is inclined to take to devotion, it is not possible to take to karma-yoga. Who can sacrifice the profit?
Yasomatinandana: Does karma-yoga mean to follow exactly the sastras?
Yasomatinandana: Doing only for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is karma-yoga.
Makhanlal: Which means?
Prabhupada: "Whatever you do, you the result give Me."
Makhanlal: To Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yasomatinandana: So we are also, those who are on the vaidhi-bhakti, they are also on the karma-yoga path because we are...
Prabhupada: Yes. They are acting under the order of the spiritual master. That is bhakti-yoga.
Bhagavata: So when one follows the nine activities of devotion purely, that is pure bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavata: Then when he's following those nine activities, then he's superior.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhagavata: Then that's superior to karma-yoga, to follow those nine principles purely.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Makhanlal: Raganuga-bhakti is also superior to karma-yoga then?
Prabhupada: Bhakti is perfect stage. That is not for ordinary man.
Yasomatinandana: If we are working for Krsna, Prabhupada, what is the difference between karma-yoga and..., or bhakti, because they also mean Krsna?
Prabhupada: Now go on doing your duty, you'll understand gradually. Don't try to understand in one day.
Bhagavata: It will be revealed to us as we act.
Prabhupada: Yes, the more you become in service attitude, things will be revealed to you. Tasyaite kathita hy arthah prakasante [SU 6.23]. Becomes... It becomes manifest. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau sam eva sphuraty adhah [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234].
[break] ...answers.
Dr. Patel: What I will say now... I will make one man sit between the two, Vaisnavas.
Prabhupada: You know what the paramahamsas do?
Dr. Patel: Uh-huh.
Prabhupada: They are mixed up.
Dr. Patel: It is what I gave to that man. Mix up, then it is far better.
Prabhupada: Then they are all paramahamsas.
Dr. Patel: Then let them mix. We don't mind. But they don't mix very good.
Indian man (2): [Gujarati]
Dr. Patel: [Gujarati conversation] But yesterday was I am. Next time I will...
Prabhupada: Fasting.
Dr. Patel: Fasting yesterday, fasting [break]
Prabhupada: Ramachandra.
Devotee: Till the sun goes down.
Prabhupada: Eh? Yes.
Dr. Patel: Not the sun. Whole day till tomorrow morning. That is how you are fasting? If the sun goes down in the night..., daytime?
Prabhupada: No, [Gujarati]. But if one can continue, that's all right. [end]
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