Audio
Prabhupada: This is also very good, good in this sense, that they do not eat without restriction. There is some restriction.
Prabhupada: Yes. That if you want to eat meat and chicken, then you first of all sacrifice before their deity. So at least they'll be restricted from eating meat purchased from slaughterhouse. But this rascal civilization, one side they're advertising, "Stop cruelty to animals," another side they're opening unrestricted slaughterhouse. Just see. One side they're allowing marriage of woman every week, another side contraception. Just see their contradiction. [japa] [break] ...there is animal sacrifice in the church. Is there any such pre...?
Prabhupada: Yes. Jews, they have got.
Prabhupada: Shocked. Yes.
Nitai: Excuse me. [microphone moving]
Prabhupada: Don't come very near.
Nitai: I'm sorry. [break]
Prabhupada: No, no. People will know our position.
Prabhupada: Eh? Oh, yes. [pause]
[break] ...that demonstration, "Hoh! Hoh!" They do not...?
Indian man (1): Yes. Only two men is coming. Two only coming.
Indian man (1): Chowpatty Way.
Indian man (1): They got also own flat, I think.
Indian man (2): No, they are not staying in that same flat where [indistinct] stayed.
Indian man (2): They have their own apartment. They heard, and they have [indistinct]. They are barking... [break]
Prabhupada: ...big animals.
Dr. Patel: No, he acts, but he's...
Prabhupada: No, that's all right.
Dr. Patel: There is no question of action. We also act. How much we are religious, only God knows.
Dr. Patel: Up to now, I think this is the best part I have run across. One of the best parts. And that, that particular lila of Krsna is the most thrilling one. No?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: He? He? No.
Dr. Patel: I read it in Sanskrit, in directly. And there, in real, original Sanskrit it is wonderful. You get the real rasa of it.
Dr. Patel: No, no. Indirectly. It is indirect. The real Sanskrit is different. He will tell you. Any other language than Sanskrit...
Prabhupada: No, no, no, there is no difference.
Prabhupada: There is no difference.
Dr. Patel: Real rasa comes in Sanskrit. I read it twice in Gujarati, but I..., I was not able to get that pleasure when I read it in Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I mean, I read all those books which you have published. Now more books you must send, because I have finished. I am a voracious reader. I finish all of them.
Prabhupada: Viprad dvi-sad-guna-yutat. A brahmana, having twelve brahminical qualifications... Viprad dvi-sad-guna-yutad aravinda-nabha-padaravinda-vimukhat svapacam varistham. A brahmana, well learned, well scholar, and just brahminical principles, strictly following, but if he is not a devotee, from him, one candala is better. Svapacam varistham. Why? Now, because that candala has-candala who is devotee candala, not ordinary candala-he has dedicated his mind, his body, his activities for the service of the Lord. Therefore he not only is purified, but he purifies the whole family, whereas a qualified brahmana, if he is not a devotee, he cannot purify himself, what to speak of purifying the family.
Dr. Patel: In this particular part.
Dr. Patel: I thought Bhagavata was a book of stories, so I was not reading. Really. I am so truthful to you. That is, I read all, I myself, more than half a dozen times all the, mean, twelve [indistinct]. But I said, "Bhagavata why?"
Dr. Patel: But I read it in Gujarati...
Prabhupada: Which one?
Dr. Patel: First.
Prabhupada: It is not difficult. No. Because the question... It is the explanation of Brahma-sutra. So the Brahma-sutra, the beginning is athato brahma-jijnasa. "What about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth?" The next verse is, immediately, janmady asya yatah: "The Supreme Absolute Truth is that..."
Dr. Patel: "...from which everything is born."
Dr. Patel: From the second line of the sutras.
Prabhupada: Yes. Answer Brahma-sutra's question. The answer is Bhagavata: janmady asya yatah. Then what is that janmady asya yatah? And he says, Vyasadeva says, anvayat itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah. That... The... Abhijnah. That the Absolute Truth, from whom everything has emanated, He knows everything directly and indirectly. He knows. Because He's abhijnah.
Dr. Patel: He is knowing everything.
Prabhupada: Knowing every... Knows everything.
Dr. Patel: Knowing everything. Knowing everything.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Prabhupada: Because...
Dr. Patel: All-down knowing, all-down knowing.
Prabhupada: Yes. So He's not a stone. Just like some philosopher says there was a chunk, and creation came from that. So here Bhagavata says, "No. The origin of creation, He's a person-abhijnah. And He knows everything, directly and indirectly." Directly, I know this is my body, but indirectly, I do not know what is going on in this body. Therefore we go to physician that "Please tell me what is the ailments in my body." So I do not know what is the cause. But the original Absolute Truth, He knows everything, directly and indirectly. Therefore He is abhijnah. Janmady asya yatah anvayat itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah. In this way concludes: satyam param dhimahi.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi] A magician in Gujarat, some Muslim magician, he would ask..., not ask for a ticket [indistinct].
Indian man (3): He would not...? He would not...?
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Indian man (3): Mama Chel.
Dr. Patel: Mama Chel. There was one man called Mama Chel. And when the ticket collector comes and asks for the ticket he says, "All right, take this," and there would be a heap of tickets, railway tickets.
Prabhupada: Oh. So a magician can do...
Dr. Patel: A magician he was. He would stop that train. Stand behind and stop the train. Stop. He must..., people must have got some siddhis by...
Prabhupada: No, no. Anyone can get. It is a practice mechanical.
Dr. Patel: But wrong, wrong...
Prabhupada: Mechanical.
Dr. Patel: So the vartas also get it, these sakti-vartas. They get this by tantric yoga. I can't still understand how tantras, by following, I mean, drawing particular figures and writing down those figures, you can get powers. This is very common in Bengal side, this tantra. No? I read a book on tantra by Sir Arthur Avalon, and he described so wonderful of powers come by this and that. I don't know whether it is a fact or not.
Prabhupada: No, no. That is materialism. Anyone who is after powers, that is materialism.
Dr. Patel: I could not believe in it. How could it come?
Prabhupada: It can come.
Dr. Patel: Not so.
Prabhupada: Now, this is also tantra. Just like nowadays, they were flying Sputnik, and from here controlling everything. Millions and millions of miles...
Dr. Patel: But there is a science behind it, no?
Prabhupada: So that is also a kind of science, subtle science.
Dr. Patel: This writing, writing letters, two and two, and, and...
Prabhupada: Yes. There are subtle sciences. These are gross sciences. There are subtle science also. Just like now mechanically you are flying. But there is science... Anything. I can fly with this stick. That is possible. Akasa-patana. There is a science, akasa-patana. Kapota-vayu. Kapota-vayu. Now, you can train the pigeons, and it will..., you'll fly in the sky.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes [indistinct].
Dr. Patel: You must have read the carpet-flying in India.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I used to read such stories when I was a young boy of ten years.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, that was...
Dr. Patel: Not, it was not...
Prabhupada: Now scientific improvement has been done, but that is on the gross material platform.
Dr. Patel: Spiritually, they must be working.
Prabhupada: No, it is not spiritual. That is also subtle. Just like mind, the speed of mind. The mind is material. By mind speed, you can... Just imagine. You are here. Immediately, within a second, you go to Calcutta.
Dr. Patel: Because you think of the thing.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: First going is mind going.
Prabhupada: So this is the mind. Similarly mental, then intellectual... You are going?
Dr. Patel: No, no. You are going ahead. We have to come to that...
Prabhupada: Yes. They are all material.
Dr. Patel: But... But even in, even in...
Prabhupada: The so-called jnanis, they are on the mental platform. Therefore they are also materialists. But therefore Brahma... You'll find in that Brahma-stotra, jnane prayasam udapasya: "Give up this attempt to reach the Supreme by mental speculation." Jnane prayasam uda..., namanta eva: "Be submissive." Namanta eva sanmukharitam bhavadiya-vartam: "Just hear from devotee the news of the message of God, Krsna." That is the process recommended. Jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva sanmukharitam bhavadiya-vartam. Sthane sthitah. You haven't got to change your place. Sruti-gatam tanu-vaṅ-manobhih [SB 10.14.3]. You hear from the realized soul and try to apply in your practical life. Then, one day, although God is unconquerable, He will be conquered by you. This is recommendation by Brahma.
Prabhupada: That is soul consciousness.
Dr. Patel: In the other conscious, and then...
Prabhupada: Body consciousness is mental speculation.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say. You must go beyond that.
Dr. Patel: These yogis...
Prabhupada: Then they are also, the same thing: gross material thing.
Dr. Patel: Mad-gatenantaratmana.
Dr. Patel: Antaratmana.
Prabhupada: Antaratmana means beyond his mind and intelligence...
Dr. Patel: From within yourself.
Dr. Patel: But then I don't think they say they are becoming Krsna.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Dr. Patel: Their disciples say. As any disciple...
Prabhupada: These all rascals! Kick these disciple. Why... Wherefrom the disciple comes? From the rascals.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: So you see they are mine. They are not violating...
Dr. Patel: I have not... If I have taken you as a God, then I can get my knowledge.
Prabhupada: That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: If I take you as a man, I have not got it.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. If God produces rascals, then he's a rascal.
Prabhupada: He's..., just like your representative. Suppose if I have got you some business. There is a call: "If you love me, you love my dog." It is not the dog is you. Dog is different. But if you love somebody, you pat sometimes, "Oh...," the dog. Just to satisfy him. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. This is stated. If you satisfy guru, then God is satisfied. That does not mean guru is God.
Prabhupada: No, that is not...
Dr. Patel: That is what I think.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: And I don't think I am wrong.
Prabhupada: That is Mayavada. That is Mayavada.
Prabhupada: They make also Krsna and Krsna's inside different.
Dr. Patel: Krsna's body is different from your body and my body. Krsna's body is spiritual.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: No. That's not right.
Prabhupada: That's not right. Please note it. If you compare the guru is God, then you should compare similarity.
Dr. Patel: Similarity, this body and Krsna's body are different.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no. That is an ignorance. You do not know.
Dr. Patel: Krsna's body is spiritual. His, any part of His body...
Prabhupada: The Mayavadis do that, that Krsna...
Dr. Patel: He can hear, He can hear by His eye and hear by His finger. And satisfy anybody by His anything.
Dr. Patel: Bodily distinction...
Prabhupada: Then why bodily or anything?
Dr. Patel: It is very important.
Prabhupada: It is the... No, no, no. They cannot make, say distinc...
Dr. Patel: The body, this body...
Prabhupada: Cinmaya...
Dr. Patel: ...becomes ill, and he has got to come to a doctor sometimes.
Prabhupada: Body, that... If...
Dr. Patel: But that, Krsna's body is not that body.
Prabhupada: Not only..., not only guru. Anyone who is spiritually advanced, he has no more material body.
Dr. Patel: That's... From higher standpoint of view.
Dr. Patel: No, that guru who knows that he has no real material body, he's beyond the body consciousness, that is right.
Prabhupada: No, no. Even the material body's there...
Prabhupada: Even the material body is there, still he's to be taken as spiritual. That is the philosophy. The example is given: just like you have got the iron stick. You put it in the fire, and it becomes warm. And when it is red hot, it is no more iron stick; it is fire. Do you accept this?
Dr. Patel: I accept it.
Prabhupada: Then? Similarly, one who is always merged in Krsna thought, his body is not material.
Dr. Patel: That way you say.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, that is the way.
Dr. Patel: Now I understand.
Prabhupada: Because his material body is not working. That is stopped. He's working simply spiritually. Therefore his body is spiritual. The same example: it has become so hot, red hot, that it is no more working as iron rod; it is working as fire.
Dr. Patel: Because it burns anybody who touches it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: He electrifies anybody who touches him. So we touch your feet. [laughs]
Prabhupada: Therefore..., therefore he has no material body.
Dr. Patel: No.
Dr. Patel: That is wrong.
Prabhupada: So everyone knows that is a stone statue. But we are so fool that we are worshiping a stone statue? Therefore this is offense. Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara... [Padma Purana] Similarly guru. Although he's working, moving just like ordinary human being, one should not consider that he's ordinary human being. Gurusu nara-matih.
Prabhupada: Everyone knows that "Here is a stone statue." That so many hundred and thousands of people are coming to worship that stone statue? Somebody can argue. The atheist will argue. And when... So... We have got millions of temples, especially in South India and Jagannatha Puri, and many where... So are they going, spending so much money to worship a statue? That is forbidden. Gurusu nara-matih. Guru should not be considered in that way, if he's actually guru.
Prabhupada: The same.
Prabhupada: Yes, but if he has no power, how he can give?
Prabhupada: So therefore guru as God, not distinction that guru is so much God, and he is so much God.
Dr. Patel: I don't say distinction. I...
Prabhupada: No, you said that distinction of body, distinction...
Dr. Patel: I did not say that. You have to understood it differently.
Dr. Patel: That is what I want to learn from you.
Prabhupada: I am not guru. I am... I am... This is... The guru has no material body. Just like the statue is not material, similarly, guru's body is not material.
Dr. Patel: You say that though gurus may appear as material body, you are not to take it as a material body. Say that way. Because we are little...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Not to take it; it is actually. If it is material body, then how they are getting benefits, if it is a material body? The same example: if it is iron rod, how it is burning? It is fire. When there is burning, you must assume it is fire. Why do you take, "Oh, it is iron rod"? Phalena pariciyate. Phalena pariciyate. By the result you have to... Therefore it is said, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. We, we have no direct contact with Bhagavan, but guru, being representative of Bhagavan, if we satisfy guru, then Bhagavan... Identical. Therefore it is warned: vaisnave jati-buddhih [Padma Purana]. Similarly, vaisnave jati-buddhih. "Here is a European Vaisnava, he's Indian Vaisnava, it is brahmana Vaisnava and sudra Vaisnava." No. That is also, that is also offense.
Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Vaisnava is Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: I read somewhere that...
Prabhupada: No, no. Some...
Prabhupada: That...
Prabhupada: No, no. This is Mayavada.
Dr. Patel: There is no within and without... I have not read that. There is no within and without so far God is concerned. God is everywhere.
Prabhupada: And similarly, similarly, guru also-no within, no without. Otherwise how we can say saksad-dharitvena? Directly. If you make distinction, how he can be directly?
Dr. Patel: Within, without is [indistinct].
Prabhupada: Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. But he has attained that position on account of his being very, very dear to God. Because doing God's work. Eh? God says, "Surrender unto Me." Guru is preaching. That is real guru. He's preaching, "Surrender to Krsna." He'll never say, "Surrender unto Me."
Prabhupada: All rascals says. All rascals say.
Dr. Patel: But rascals are not gurus.
Prabhupada: No, no. The gurus, so-called gurus, there are. These Mayavadis, all they say, "I am God."
Prabhupada: "Let me now have rasa dance. Send your children. Send your wife, send your daughter. We'll dance." These are all rascals, Mayavadis. Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa [Cc Madhya 6.169]. This is the statement of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. As soon as one hears the statement of Mayavadi, he's doomed, he's finished. He's finished.
Dr. Patel: You have been bracketing so many good people like that, with the bad, and I feel strongly...
Prabhupada: Where is good people?! Where is good people?!
Dr. Patel: ...about this philosophy of yours.
Prabhupada: All rascals! Let them come. Let them come. Yes! I shall kick on their face! I am so strong. Where is good man?
Dr. Patel: You see...
Prabhupada: I have already kicked already that... What is that?
Prabhupada: Yes. [Hindi] And he's a dog. In public meeting.
Dr. Patel: I meet with all these fellows. We talk of general philosophy.
Prabhupada: So we have got some discrimination. Our is only point: If anybody is a Mayavadi, he's a dog. Kick him on his face, that's all.
Dr. Patel: Mayavadi means those people who...
Prabhupada: No. Mayavadi means Mayavadi. That's all. No explanation.
Dr. Patel: What do you mean by Mayavada?
Prabhupada: Mayavadi means who thinks like that...
Dr. Patel: All right, now, that is right.
Dr. Patel: There is no body of Krsna. Whole thing is body.
Prabhupada: So Mayavadi does not know that.
Dr. Patel: And those people...
Dr. Patel: Krsna has control over the Mayavadis.
Prabhupada: There, you'll find, you'll find in Dr. Radhakrishnan's book, the same thing.
Dr. Patel: I never did read it.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: I have not read it.
Prabhupada: You should have studied, because he's advertised as big scholar.
Dr. Patel: He is wonderful.
Prabhupada: He has eulogized Ramakrishna.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: Yes, he has eulogized Ramakrishna, this Huxley. You know that?
Prabhupada: Yes. Ramakrishna was a first-class Mayavadi.
Dr. Patel: Which Ramakrishna?
Prabhupada: These Ramakrishna Mission.
Prabhupada: No, that is... Then you have got some selection of your own.
Dr. Patel: I have no selection.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's all.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: I have to tell the truth. You may like or not like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I have to say the truth. I am saying all over the world.
Dr. Patel: That may be a true, but all are not like that.
Dr. Patel: That may be a truth...
Prabhupada: Still repeating. Repeating.
Dr. Patel: Let us go off.
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: Eh? And he became God, by worshiping Kali. Just see how much Mayavadi he is. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajante anya-devatah [Bg 7.20]: "Anyone who is worshiping other demigods, his intelligence is lost." Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah. And this man says that worshiping a demigod, Goddess Kali, he became God. Just see. How much great Mayavadi he is. Where is the sastra..., where is in the sastra, Vedic sastra, that one becomes God by worshiping Goddess Kali?
Prabhupada: Is there any evidence? Then may...
Prabhupada: That is all right. That is another thing. Just like I gave the example: if you associate with fire, you also become fire. That is another thing, brahma-vid. But here is no question of brahma-vid. Ignorance. Ignorance. Because brahma-vid, the Brahman, Supreme Brahman, says that "Those who are worshiper of demigods, they have lost their intelligence." So how he becomes...? A man who has lost his intelligence, how he can become brahma-vid? Brahma-vid is so easy thing? It is possible for a man who has lost his intelligence and he becomes brahma-vid?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Patel: You have got to go beyond intelligence, mind and everything.
Prabhupada: Well, we are beyond intelligence, beyond all rascals. We are beyond.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore we say. Therefore... [break] [end]
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