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Prabhupada: [indistinct] earth.

Svarupa Damodara: Due to distance from...

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: The relative portion between the earth and the... [break]

Prabhupada: ...they say that it is utopian. But when they speak of "We are going to send him round in a capsule, and it will reach, and after ten thousand years it will come out," are these not utopian? They will make a station, [indistinct] station, and petrol will be direct from here and [indistinct]. All these are practical or utopian? What is the opposite word of utopian?

Jayatirtha: Pragmatic.

Prabhupada: Pragmatic?

Jayatirtha: Pragmatic means practical, and utopian means idealistic concept. [break] [indistinct] So many people are suffering here, famine, so many things, and they're spending so many millions of dollars. [indistinct] anyway.

Prabhupada: Why the scientists cannot make it straight? [laughter]

Svarupa Damodara: Ideology is assumed in many scientific theories.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: Ideology of certain laws of certain matter, they assume it.

Prabhupada: Are they not utopian?

Svarupa Damodara: But they take it as facts. For example...

Prabhupada: So you take it your things as fact, we take our fact. Why do you say my things utopian, yours fact? Similarly, I can say my fact, your utopian.

Svarupa Damodara: For example, in chemical elements, like the elements like the helium, neon, argon, these are called inert gasses, these are called ideal gasses, because they behave ideally under the assumptions of scientific theories [indistinct].

It fits perfectly well to their theory, so they call these gasses ideal gasses. And gasses like oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen, these are nonideal gasses, because they do not behave properly, like helium or neon. So the theory extends...

First they develop the theory from these ideal gasses, and then when the theory doesn't fit to the gasses, like hydrogen and oxygen, they modify it. So they call these are nonideal gasses. So accordingly the theory is modified. They put certain numbers to adjust their modifications. So in all..., most scientific theories, they develop something that is called ideal; and from that ideality, they extrapolate these so-called other theories. That is almost in all scientific theories. [break]

Prabhupada: ...planet, Vaikuntha planet, and Krsna comes to show us the ideal place in Vrndavana. The sample Vrndavana is here. So why do you say it is utopian?

Jayatirtha: [indistinct] ideal. The material world isn't very ideal.

Prabhupada: That is the imitation of the ideal.

Jayatirtha: Some people are trying to make it ideal, trying to make this place ideal.

Prabhupada: There must be something ideal; otherwise how they will try to make it ideal? They are trying to be immortal. Unless there is something immortal, how they...

Svarupa Damodara: The actual ideality is there.

Prabhupada: That is explained in Bhagavatam: satyam param dhimahi. Final proof.

Svarupa Damodara: If there would be no ideality, the scientists cannot think about ideality itself.

Devotee (1): [indistinct] think about the concept of living eternally, because this was the teaching of the church that I was going to. And I used to become very frightened at having to go on and on forever, because I couldn't imagine what I'd be doing during all that time. I used to try to put some end to it all.

Now in Krsna consciousness, we understand that eternity is filled up with ideal activities and that eternal life is very blissful and full of knowledge. This concept is not there in any other teaching. I'm imortal and [indistinct].

Prabhupada: The scientist says there is no life after death?

Svarupa Damodara: No, they do not know that. They do not say also, they do not know that. They do not say that there is no life after death, because they do not know.

Devotee (1): There is one plan to freeze people at the time of death. This is actually going on now-to be awoken out of such frozen state when the science is advanced...

Prabhupada: That means there is no life. If you want to keep it frozen, that means after this body there is no life.

Svarupa Damodara: No, it doesn't, because they want to study. For example, the brain of the advanced scientist, they want to study how his brain is different from ordinary people, so they can do some studies, research, on different bodies, parts of the bodies, just to differentiate why this body is different from the so many bodies.

Prabhupada: There is differentiation, but... That's a fact. Differentiation, that is visible because [indistinct] more nicely than me, you must have more brain. But the brain is not acting independently. That they do not know. They take brain, they are going to study-that is another foolishness, another rascaldom. Still they are passing on as scientist. Just like ordinary machine and a complicated machine. The machine has to be worked by somebody.

Not that because it is highly developed valuable machine it works automatically. This simple thing these rascals, they do not understand. You may have got a very big, nice machine; I may not have. But either good machine or bad machine, it must be worked by you or by me. Where is that me and you? And they are trying to understand the machine itself only. Such rascaldom.

Svarupa Damodara: That's why they...

Prabhupada: They are keeping the machine. What you will study the machine? Machine, according to his karma that particular person, this machine is given by God. Just like if you pay good price, you get a good machine. Similarly, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg 18.61]. So God is supplying him the machine and the circumstances to work. They do not find out the man who is working on the machine; they are studying the machine. Such a foolish attempt.

Svarupa Damodara: So they work only with matter, so they forget about spirit.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is their folly. Therefore they are rascal. That is described in the Bhagavata, yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. They are animals, so what knowledge we can expect from these rascal animals? They are animals. They may pass on as big, big scientist to another animal, but they cannot pass on as big scientist to us.

Svarupa Damodara: They have to be spiritualized to pass.

Jayatirtha: Just like so many times on [indistinct].

Prabhupada: We... Anyone who is simply understanding this matter, we immediately accept him as an animal, that's all. The animals take it.

Svarupa Damodara: But majority of the people are all like that.

Prabhupada: So therefore they are all animals-fools, rascals. Abodha-jato, they have been described-all rascals, fools. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijnasata atma. So long they do not come to the point of understanding spirit soul, they are simply rascals. And whatever they are doing, simply being defeated actually. The so-called scientific research, simply their defeat. What they have gained? That is stated in Bhagavata. Parabhava.

Parabhava means defeat. So long they do not come to the understanding of self, the spirit soul, they are simply rascals and fools. And what the rascals and fools can become victorious? They will never become victorious. They will always be subdued by the laws of nature. Parabhava, defeat simply. Whatever scientific discoveries, there is simply defeat, not conquering.

That old scientist, he could not check his old age, so what is the value of his scientific discovery? He could not check his growing in age, so what is the value of scientific advancement? He will die. They cannot check death, they cannot check old age.

Svarupa Damodara: Nobody can check death.

Prabhupada: Then what is the advancement? The real problems are there. Parabhavas tavad. Parabhava, simply defeat, wasting time being defeated by the laws of nature. They cannot understand anything properly.

Svarupa Damodara: Then why don't they search for real knowledge?

Prabhupada: That is the... Therefore they are rascal. Why they are rascal? They will not take real knowledge. Just like children: obstinate. The father says, "Don't touch, don't touch this." But he says, "No, touch," and he touches. As soon as he touches it, he makes [makes noise like one in pain].

Svarupa Damodara: Burned.

Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. They will not take the experience of Krsna; they will manufacture their own experience. That is their folly. Therefore they are called..., they have been addressed as mudhah. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg 7.15]. Lowest of the mankind, mudhah, they do not surrender [indistinct].

So they will not take the intelligence given by Krsna. They will manufacture their own intelligence. This is their folly. Therefore, they are rascals. Our process is all the big acaryas, they are taking knowledge from Krsna, Vyasadeva, Krsna's representative or guru. That is our process. And they are manufacturing their own laws.

They do not know the system; they take it as dogmatic. Just like we speak of Vaikuntha from experienced knowledge. They will not believe it. But they do not know what are these planets, still they will not believe it. They cannot say anything except their home planet. Even they do not know what are the...

They have not studied all the corners of this planet. Therefore they sometimes say, "Oh, this discovery, this is our first discovery." Discovery means they do not know so many things. That is discovery. When they come to know, "Oh, it is working like this, [indistinct]." But the things are there. So they do not know so many things, still they are scientists.

Svarupa Damodara: They cannot think so many things, because they are concentrated in a small area of even their own...

Prabhupada: Yes, that is we call kupa-manduka-nyaya, kupa-manduka-nyaya, the frog, Dr. Frog of the well. He cannot conceive what is Atlantic Ocean, but still he will theorize, "Atlantic Ocean may be so big, so big, so big." What experience you can get Atlantic Ocean living in a three-foot well? That is going on. And if I ask you, "What is the measurement of the space?" you cannot say that.

You cannot say that. But there is measurement, [indistinct]. It may be unlimited for you, but as it is a created thing, there must be measurement. Any created thing has measurement. Unless they agree to submit... They must submit. Just like you have submitted, you are [indistinct], so you can understand God. This is the only qualification.

Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg 18.66]: "First of all submit, rascal, then I shall tell you the truth, you will be able to understand the truth." There is no possibility of understanding the whole thing by challenge. That is [indistinct]. They are always challenging [indistinct].

Svarupa Damodara: They are challenging the nature.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: They are challenging the nature itself.

Prabhupada: Nature, they cannot, even challenging nature, they cannot understand the nature. And behind nature, there is God. So what they will understand God? They cannot understand the curtain by which God is hidden, and what they will understand God? This is a curtain. Naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah [Bg 7.25].

Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani [Bg 9.4]. Just like this planet, this universe, everything is resting on Him, but He cannot be found. Just like if you sit down on this chair, on this bench, I can see the bench you are sitting. But this whole universe is floating on something, but you cannot see on which it is floating, you are so limited. This universe is floating on water, just like a football. Yah karanarnava-jale bhajati sma yoga-nidram [Bs 5.47], anantam asesa-bhutam.

Each and every universe is coming out of the pores in the body of Visnu, Maha-Visnu. Just like an infected person, he distributes infection by breathing. Is it not?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Similarly, these universes are coming from the breathing of the Maha-Visnu, and again it will wind up when it is inhaled. This is creation and... So what they will understand? But we understand, because we take the knowledge from experience. Real experience. They will simply bluff, "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall know." That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: They are always hoping against hope, then trying to do same thing every time.

Prabhupada: That is foolishness.

Svarupa Damodara: Even when experiments fail so many times, ten times, twenty times, still they are hoping, "Oh, this time I will get it." They do it.

Prabhupada: Durasaya. This is called durasaya. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah. Everything is explained. They are called durasaya, hope against hope, but it will never be fulfilled.

Devotee (1): I've talked with some so-called educated people, they are impressed by Vedic cosmology, the concept of [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (1): They are impressed by what is called Vedic cosmology, how they knew five thousand years ago about the situation of planets. But then when you get personal, you tell how these planets are coming, then they will not accept. But they are impressed by the stature of the knowledge that is there.

Svarupa Damodara: The astronomers and the cosmologists, they define the universe in three definitions. And according to their own..., they say the visible space, the universe, they say this is their laboratory for their research to find out the unlimited expanding universe. So this is their laboratory for their...

So they call..., this is called observable universe, the universe that can be observed and perceived by instruments. Then another definition of universe they call unlimited. That includes the observable plus everything that is not observable. And the third aspect they call physical universe. That means this universe can be studied by physical laws, mathematics, physics. So they call these are physical universe. So based on these...

Prabhupada: So how they can say beyond this universe there is no other?

Svarupa Damodara: They cannot say that. They still say that there is unlimited aspects that increase for the visible as well as...

Prabhupada: Invisible.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Jayatirtha: They think that that which they can't perceive they can understand by mathematical laws and physical laws. They just discover about the laws.

Prabhupada: But there are so many laws, infinitum. The divisions of [indistinct] infinitum.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually, all physical laws are discovered by mathematics. [break] Beyond our imagination.

Prabhupada: Just like in our childhood we were thinking a gramophone machine, "How it can speak without a man? There must be a man within."

Svarupa Damodara: So everything comes to Srila Prabhupada's..., that nice comment on the frog's philosophy, Dr. Frog. All these things what happen.

Jayatirtha: Just like that man who was searching for the touchstone in the garbage heap [indistinct]. How will I find a touchstone in the garbage heap? I've quoted this story on college campuses.

Svarupa Damodara: I put some posters in the campus for Long Beach engagement. Somebody was asking me, "What is this knowledge, transcendental knowledge?" "You should come and find out. Please come and find out."

Prabhupada: Physics has nothing to do with spirit.

[break] ...manufacture the subtle parts of motorcar, easily you can go. So this rascal thinking this is advancement, says, "I am killing the soul. The soul is going to become a dog next life after riding motorcar." That is written, and they have no knowledge. But because you have advanced from bullock cart to motorcar, this is... So rascal they are. They have no knowledge what is advancement. What is the time?

Jayatirtha: It's quarter to seven. Thirteen minutes to seven. The advancement of material science really means to complicate the problems of life.

Prabhupada: That's all-increasing the problem. They have to dig out petroleum oil from the midst of the ocean. Is it easy job?

Jayatirtha: No.

Prabhupada: But they will do it, because they have got motorcars, they must find out petrol.

Svarupa Damodara: That's why they are called development of new departments of knowledge. With the rise of necessity, they develop new departments of searching out the unknown.

Prabhupada: What is the use of this development? It will be problem after all. What is the use of such knowledge?

Svarupa Damodara: They fail to see that point.

Prabhupada: That means they are rascals. They do not have clear eyesight, clear insight. They do not know whether they are degrading or developing. Just like the flies, with great force they will go into the fire. They think they are making progress, they are going to the light. You see? They think.

Otherwise how they are going? Such kind of advancement. They are going to die, be annihilated, and they still, "Oh, we are going force, by force we are going to the light. Here is darkness, there is light." This is their philosophy. Just like a mad driver drinking drives recklessly to die, that's all. But he is thinking, "Oh, I am going with so much great speed." He does not know that he is going to die after few minutes. And that is their development.

Svarupa Damodara: Same thing when they discovered atomic bomb, they did not know what's going to happen. This Einstein proposed the equation that a small mass can be converted to a tremendous amount of energy, like his equation that energy is equal to the mass times the square of the velocity of light.

So he, from his theory, found that this is happening, this is a physical law. So if we have a small amount of mass, and if we subject to this equation, then there will be a tremendous amount of energy. So... But later on it happened that they used the knowledge in the wrong direction. So many people got killed. And at the moment, the so-called genetic engineering...

Prabhupada: That also they do not understand properly, because they do not see the spiritual energy. Just like we know that within this body there is a small bit of spiritual energy, spark, which is ten-thousand part of the tip of the hair. How small it is. But due to its presence within the body, the body is working so nicely. We know that, that how a small particle of spiritual energy can work so wonderfully. They do not know it.

Svarupa Damodara: So nowadays the scientists are also thinking that there have been so many mistakes, so...

Prabhupada: They will find out.

Svarupa Damodara: So they say that this atomic energy, this bombing, was a tremendous mistake on the part of the... They say this mostly responsible by politicians, not on the part of scientists, the scientists say. But on the other hand, the public say, people say, the scientists are responsible because they discovered the...

Prabhupada: Yes, they are responsible. If you give a sharpened razor in the hands of a child, the child will cut here and there. So who is responsible: the parent or the child?

Svarupa Damodara: Parent.

Prabhupada: So the rascal scientist is responsible for giving such things in the hands of the rascals. Politicians are the most rascal; the most scoundrel, they go to politics. Politician means a tenth-class man. No first-class man goes to politics. Suppose if somebody says me that "You come and become president." Why shall I go there? What can I do there? I know I shall not be able to do anything, so why shall I take the post?

Jayatirtha: They just like to lord it over.

Prabhupada: Yes. I cannot say... Suppose if I become president, and if I want to say that stop this slaughterhouse, immediately I will be removed. So I cannot do anything, even if I become president, so why shall I accept this post? No sane man, no gentleman will go to the post, because he knows he will not be able to do anything for the welfare of the public.

Jayatirtha: They're so corrupt.

Prabhupada: So corrupt. Horribly corrupt. Even one wants to do... Just like President Kennedy, he wanted to do something good-he was shot down. Gandhi wanted to do something-he was shot down. So the politics is so corrupted that as soon as you are prepared to do something actually, you will be killed.

Svarupa Damodara: So seeing that mistake also, now the scientists, they are proposing that they should make a governing body, not the politicians, so when they discover something, so that the result can be completely controlled by this group of...

Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. They will be bribed and they will vote. They will get money. That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: Another thing that is coming up is genetic engineering, which they are afraid about, just like they say, remember like atomic bomb incident. The politicians will utilize the...

Prabhupada: So why they discover all these nonsense and waste their time? Why do they not discover something which will stop all problems of life-no death, no disease? Why do they..., do not know? They are also rascals, combination of rascals. Why do they expend their energy and intelligence for this nonsense purpose? [break] ...which will be reduced.

Jayatirtha: They want to discover things just for the sake of knowing them, just because everything should be known.

Prabhupada: That is disturbing part, kevala-bodha-labdhaye [SB 10.14.4], just for the matter of knowing, never mind it will be disastrous. Why don't you try to know something which will not be disastrous-beneficial? But that they have not. That you have no power to know that.

Why don't you try to know God? Why you are trying to know something disastrous? What is this?

Jayatirtha: In the Bhagavatam it says that [indistinct]. [break]

Prabhupada: They like us?

Jayatirtha: Some of them, they recognize [indistinct]. Oftentimes they like us [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Any sane man will like us.

Svarupa Damodara: They are fighting how to stop drugs coming from foreign countries, the smuggling of ganja and all this. [indistinct conversation]

Prabhupada: [as man passes by] Foolish man [indistinct].

Jayatirtha: Sunday morning, now instead of going to church, they go and play golf. [break]

Devotee (2): ...exercise so you can walk around. But now they have those electric cars, so they don't have to walk anywhere.

Svarupa Damodara: They call that advancement. The search for knowledge is natural.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: They search for knowledge, but losing Krsna, searching in the wrong direction.

Prabhupada: The search for knowledge is natural, but the knowledge should be taken from the person who knows the knowledge. That they do not know. The search is all right, but they are taking knowledge from a rascal. That is the difference.

So one rascal is teaching another rascal, so what is the advancement of knowledge? Both of them remains in the ignorance. What is the use of the search? Better to stop this university.

Jayatirtha: Actually, people are seeing that more and more all the big problems are being created at universities. All the university students are rioting and becoming restless, Communists...

Prabhupada: Because the knowledge has begun from wrong conception of life.

Jayatirtha: They see that they are being cheated, yet they are cheating others also.

Svarupa Damodara: Just like Srila Prabhupada says, there are so many departments of knowledge in all the universities, but the most important department of knowledge, what is the purpose of human life, is left out.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...leaders. General public, they do no know; they are ignorant, blind. But the leaders are also blind. So blind leader leading other blind men, that means disaster. That is happening.

Svarupa Damodara: Most people, including scientists, they are not satisfied with the arrangement of nature.

Prabhupada: That is another foolishness.

Svarupa Damodara: They say they are making all these things.

Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. We cannot change the arrangement of the nature. That is not possible. What we have changed?

Svarupa Damodara: They want to be really happy, and so they say the...

Prabhupada: No, you be happy, that is nice, because happiness is our position. According to Vedic civilization, every living entity is by nature should be happy. Anandamayo 'bhyasat [Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12]. That is the nature, to become happy. But if you say that the arrangement of nature is not perfect, then you are fool.

Svarupa Damodara: That's why these people are saying that God created the universe, but still they say, "We want more." [indistinct]

Prabhupada: What does he want more? Suppose we require water; so there is ample water. You require a little salt for your eating; so there are so much salt. So what do you want more? Everything is perfect, and it is sufficient. What does he want more? If you want more motorcar, the more motorcars you are getting you are losing your life by accident, and you have to construct so many flyways.

Svarupa Damodara: It is only in this direction that people are working so hard, because they want more and more.

Prabhupada: They are working hard because they are hogs and dogs. There is no need of working hard. Nature's arrangement is so perfect that if you live natural life, there is no need of hard work. This tree is standing in one place; it is not at all working. How it is standing and living? It is also living entity.

The birds and beasts, they have no scientific laboratory. How they are living happily? So your advanced brain means you are spoiling; you do not know how to utilize the brain. The brain wants to be utilized for searching out Krsna, but instead of Krsna, you are searching out ashes. That's all. Brain is being misused.

Svarupa Damodara: So this search for these symptoms are based only on the bodily comforts or bodily aspects.

Prabhupada: But where you are getting the bodily comforts? Supposing you are [indistinct]. The [indistinct] searches after bodily comfort, but still they are not getting bodily comfort. Where is the bodily comfort? There is disease, there is old age. Where is bodily comfort?

You cannot stop it. It is very good that you are searching after bodily comfort, but there are so many discomforts of the body and the mind. You cannot stop it. Then where is your actually benefit of searching out bodily comfort? You could not do it. Where is bodily comfort?

Svarupa Damodara: For example, they will say that in early history people used to live in the caves and they used to wear skins.

Prabhupada: That is your rascal's conception. They used to live in palaces. [chuckles] You are rascal; you do not know the history.

Svarupa Damodara: But they are saying that they used to live..., the history, because they don't have the complete information.

Prabhupada: No, you are rascal, you have rascal's history. We are not rascal; we have got another history. Why shall I accept your history? You are rascal. You be satisfied with the history that your great-grandfather and his father used to live in the cave. But we don't accept.

Our forefather used to live in palace. Sixteen thousand palaces, Krsna. [laughter] So you rascal, you live with your own history. Why you force your rascaldom history upon us? We are not going to accept. We get history from five thousand years ago. You have no history beyond three thousand years. But we give the shortest history five thousand years ago, Krsna.

And how much intelligent from historical point of view Krsna was. We can understand from His instruction, Bhagavad-gita. It is not that because we are Krsna-ites we are canvassing. The whole world is reading Bhagavad-gita. Why, unless there is intelligence?

All scholars, all religionists, all philosophers, they are giving attention to Bhagavad-gita. So how you can say Krsna was living in the cave? Your forefather might be living in a cave, but our forefather did not live in a cave, but palaces. Your forefather is a monkey, according to Darwin.

Svarupa Damodara: So people completely lack the real knowledge.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Svarupa Damodara: That is why they give all these books. When we started school, we are taught with these..., or we are supplied with this information right from the beginning-the history of mankind and then how this started. So they give all this information.

Prabhupada: Stone Age. What is that, Stone Age? And before that?

Jayatirtha: Dinosaurs.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Jayatirtha: Before that they had dinosaurs.

Devotee (2): Prehistoric.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Jayatirtha: Even from a commonsense point of view, it's easy to understand that there's been civilization longer than five thousand years [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Our proposition is the first creature of this universe is Lord Brahma, who has created the universe. First creature of this universe, the most intelligent person. How we can accept the nonsense that this has developed from stone? Dasa-cakre bhagavan bhuta. Do you know this story?

Svarupa Damodara: No.

Prabhupada: Dasa-cakre bhagavan bhuta. So there was a circle of friends. So all the friends conspired to make another friend bewildered. So they conspired that "As soon as you meet that gentleman you cry, 'Oh, here is a ghost! Here is a ghost! Here is a ghost!' " So all the friends, they come, one went, "Oh! You are dead, you are ghost, you are ghost!" So after ten times like that, he thought, "Have I become a ghost?"

Then he became bewildered, "Whether really I have become ghost, I have died?" He became puzzled. This is like that: "There was no human being, there was no human being," and all the rascals are now thinking whether this is right. Dasa-cakre bhagavan bhuta. If you make conspiracy, even the sane man will think himself that "I have become ghost."

Svarupa Damodara: The influence of the...

Prabhupada: Yes, propaganda. That is the cause of India's cultural falldown. These Britishers simply made propaganda that "Whatever you have got in India, this is all allegory, fiction. These sastras are nothing. But now you are learning from us England's work in India. That is your real... You are becoming civilized now.

Otherwise, you are in the utopia, and all these sastras, throw it out." Because that was Lord Macaulay's policy. Lord Macaulay was sent to report how Indians can be governed nicely. So he reported that if you keep the Indians as Indians, you will never be able to govern them, because they are superior. You make propaganda that they are inferior, and they will imitate you, and then you can... That they did.

Jayatirtha: The Indians would never be able to compete on the Britishers' platform.

Prabhupada: No. It was under the British rule, from the childhood they are subjected to the propaganda. We read one book, small book, by M. Ghose. The subject matter was "England's work in India." That was a compulsory reading book in the schools. And in that book, it was simply stated that "We are uncivilized and since the Britishers have come, we are becoming civilized." This is the subject matter of that book, "England's work in India." So everything Indian... The Jawaharlal is the typical example-"Everything Indian is bad." That was his philosophy.

Gandhi was trying to get the Indians back to village. His philosophy was that these capitalists, they are exploiting these poor men, so all these poor men, they should go back to village and be satisfied with the village economy, not to come out. Actually that's a very nice program.

But as soon as Gandhi died, or he was killed, the whole program was changed-industrialization, and attract the poor man, and let them live in wretched condition of city life. Gandhi's policy was to make them happy by agriculture in the village, produce their own cloth, not in the mill but in charka.

Jayatirtha: Spinning wheel.

Prabhupada: Spinning wheel, they were spinning thread. Simple life and moralist. No drinking of ghee... tea, no smoking, and raghupati raghava raja rama. This was his program. Hindu-Muslim unity. But all his programs failed. He died very dissatisfied.

Jayatirtha: Why did they fail?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Jayatirtha: Why was it the programs failed?

Prabhupada: Because his disciples, they had a different program. They wanted politics like the Western countries. They did not want... Just like all the politician, they do not want anything good for the people. They simply want to make some money for their expenses. That's all. This is the whole policy of the modern diplomats and politicians. They do not know; you go to hell. Other way, in your country you see so many young men are frustrated.

So what government is doing actually? They are not serious. They have made this policy that catch them and send them, keep the Vietnam going on and kill them; all these useless boys should be killed. That is their policy. That is the Western policy: if you don't like anyone, shoot.

So if your fathers and grandfathers, they could not make you right, then send them to Vietnam to be killed. This is going on. Suicidal policy. If when a good man becomes too much frustrated, he commits suicide. That is also very current in your country. But the same suicidal policy, these boys, hippies, they could not reform them-kill them. That's all.

Jayatirtha: If they don't commit suicide, then they begin taking drugs.

Prabhupada: That is also another suicide.

Jayatirtha: When I was in Chicago, the one section where the temple is close by, more than sixty percent of the people were heroin addicts in this one section. They were so much degraded. [indistinct conversation] I was reading in the newspaper that the astronauts that are going to the moon, they wanted to take wine with them, so that when they got to the moon they could celebrate their victory. [laughter]

Prabhupada: There is a story, [Hindi]. One man said to his friend, "Oh, you are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father is also drinking." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother is drinking." "Oh, she will also go to hell." "My brother is drinking." "Oh, he will also go to hell." In this way, the last fellow was, "Oh, everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. Why do you say hell? We shall live together and drink. Why do you call hell? This is heaven." [laughter]

Svarupa Damodara: That is why association and company is so important.

Prabhupada: So ignorance... "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So drinking is heaven. Even they go to moon planet, there must be wine. Otherwise, how it is heaven? That is called punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], echewing the chewed. If your wine is heaven, then why do you take so much trouble? Why don't you drink here? [laughter] Such rascals they are. Why you spend so much money? No, the heaven will be taken in bottle.

Jayatirtha: If they were actually going to the moon planet, then they could enjoy the soma juice there [indistinct].

Prabhupada: These rascals are... I'm doubtful whether they are going to moon planet or some hell planet. Hare Krsna. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. Our only formula is anyone who is not Krsna conscious, he has no good qualities-we reject him, whatever he may be. He is rejected from the list of good men immediately. He may be president or he may be this or that, it doesn't matter. Because he is not Krsna conscious, he is a third-class man, that's all. This is our certification. [break]

These skyscraper buildings are no better than caves. They live here, and here is bathroom, here is kitchen, here is bedding[?] room, three inches. [laughter] Is that advanced civilization? Advanced civilization means every man must have sufficient space to move.

[aside] Good morning.

Why do you create this path? People will recreate, they will feel repressed. So space is required for refreshment. So what is this civilization? Three-inches room. [break]

Jayatirtha: [indistinct] as man progresses, the mark of his progression is his ability to use tools to a greater extent. Like there was the Stone Age. In the Stone Age, they used stones for tools. Then there was the Bronze Age, so they made weapons out of bronze-knives and so on. Then they invented the wheel.

Prabhupada: Iron[?] age.

Jayatirtha: So as their science progressed, then they progressed, progressed their lives, and were able to utilize nature.

Prabhupada: So what is that progress? The caves are still there, somebody is living here. Then where is the progress? As the caves are still there and somebody is living there, and skyscrapers, they are also, similarly, when you say the cave there, there were palaces you could not see them.

Both things are existing, but you studied only one side. Here is your history. See. Krsna had sixteen thousand palaces, and there was no need of light. Jewels, all jewels. Everything is existing side by side.

Svarupa Damodara: So due to a lack of knowledge, they cannot see the real side.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, they are seeing only the caves. Just like they are going to the moon. They are going to the desert of the moon and they are concluding the moon is a desert. That's all. The other side is prohibited.

Svarupa Damodara: So they cannot go.

Prabhupada: They cannot go, because according to Vedic description, moon is a planet for demigods. So they have got better brain. So they saw that "These rascals are coming here. All right, let them go to desert side." They have got their machine also.

If they have got better brain, they can divert you. Why not think in that way? Their theory is that all other planets there is no life; only this planet is favored by God, there is life. We say even in the sun planet there is life. [break] [end]