761231R1.BOM

Prabhupada: ...so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kanistha-adhikari will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is...

Gopala Krsna: He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee.

Prabhupada: Yes. They will commit so many mistakes, and they'll take it for granted. Just like this "nitai-gaura-radhe-syama." That is avoided for kanistha-adhikari. There are so many mistakes, rasabhasa. So two things are there always, two sides: one for the maha-bhagavata, one for the ordinary kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari. So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikari and kanistha-adhikari especially. So in the temple we should not...

Hari-sauri: We should just listen to whatever the acaryas have...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or...

Gopala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Krsna. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice, you are so nice, you are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something: "Papa, mama." And mama is... Not that his words are complete.

Hari-sauri: When we go out and preach, and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gita or the Bhagavatam or...?

Prabhupada: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says you simply repeat as Krsna says. That will save you.

Gopala Krsna: Just repeating.

Prabhupada: The so-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said, acaryopasanam. Amanitvam adambhitvam [Bg 13.8]. This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no acarya. Instead of being amanitvam, they're mani...: "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the acarya system it is rotten. Sa kaleneha yogo nastah paran-tapa [Bg 4.2]. So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on.

Therefore in spite of so many Gita commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaisnava-mukhodgirnam putam... [Padma Purana]. Because they are not Vaisnava, politicians and..., reject them immediately. Immediately reject them. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got... Now you have got your svaraja. Please take Bhagavad-gita seriously and let us preach."

Dr. Patel: Sir, Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad-gita should be learned through the acaryas.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot.

Dr. Patel: He was a Vaisnava cult.

Prabhupada: Yes, I know. Chakravarty. So Lion-man, I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man, Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaisnava. [break]

Prabhupada: ...agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru.

Dr. Patel: He never was in agreement.

Prabhupada: Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party.

Hari-sauri: Who's that, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Raj Gopalacharya.

Dr. Patel: If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was param bhakta, to tell the truth, always.

Prabhupada: Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvair gunais tatra samasate [SB 5.18.12]. Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad-gita, how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is.

Hari-sauri: Actually, they're not interested in the Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: I knew all these things, but what I am? I have no position.

Dr. Patel: But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad-gita, real thing is man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]. Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was... And similar thing...

Prabhupada: But because they did not learn subject matter from acarya.

Dr. Patel: Acarya.

Prabhupada: Yes. Acarya. One has to learn from the acarya.

Dr. Patel: Acarya is one who acara, himself practices.

Prabhupada: Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Acinoti sastra. [Vayu Purana] One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam [Bg 13.8]. Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha. Because he's thinking puffed-up, falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. [Prabhupada claps] They think, "Oh, I have become very great."

Dr. Patel: Nowadays, sir, they collect people to clap them.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dr. Patel: Nowadays the politicians collect, pay people.

Prabhupada: Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad... He was ambassador in... That Rao?

Hari-sauri: Yes, Motilal Rao.

Prabhupada: So he did not know. He said that "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that "You first of all write a speech and practice it, and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am... Whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I..., it doesn't matter."

Gopala Krsna: Public support.

Prabhupada: Bas. That is their only business.

Hari-sauri: Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer.

Prabhupada: Yes. Professional writer and some speaker.

Dr. Patel: All of them. They are semi-literate people.

Gopala Krsna: Even the President of the United States has a speech writer.

Prabhupada: They keep learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malavya. And in those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar. His father was very big doctor, Dr. Durgacharan Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malavya used to rote it, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this: "Oh..." In this way he became a politician. He was smarta-brahmin and he became a politician, simply by imitating Surendra Bannerji's speech.

Dr. Patel: See Aurobindo Ghosh was with Baroda Maharaja and all Maharaja's speeches were written by Aurobindo Ghosh, so one can pay and read. Everyone is thinking "these are your ideas, Maharaja may be thinking different." "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaja of Baroda was written by Aurobindo Ghosh. All, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He was English-born. His father was medical man, Dr. Manmohan Bannerji.

Dr. Patel: They say he did not know even Bengali properly.

Prabhupada: Yes. How he can? He was born in England, educated in England. He was English-born.

Dr. Patel: Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean, intelligent...

Prabhupada: That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University.

Dr. Patel: Professor of French and Philosophy.

Prabhupada: There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda.

Dr. Patel: All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis. Fifty-fifty.

Prabhupada: Hmm. No, there are others, in foreign countries. He was scholar.

Dr. Patel: In the Aurobindo asrama in Pondicherry both only Bengalis and Gujaratis will go fifty-fifty. There are some South Indians are also there. Foreigners are there."He was from from India?" He had a very big following of Gujaratis.

Prabhupada: Because he was first in Gujarat from England.

Dr. Patel: Baroda Maharaja, had selected him when he did not appear in horse riding test, [indistinct] but he did not want to serve the Britishers. Then he failed. So Baroda Maharaja knew he has failed. Baroda Maharaja was in England then. He called him, saying "You are my [indistinct]. The same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaja was appreciated.

Prabhupada: No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into... No, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged.

Dr. Patel: C. R. Das.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: It was said that the man who was judge was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that.

Prabhupada: Maybe.

Dr. Patel: C. R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he felt when arguing for practicing yoga in jail. When he has himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Krsna. Everyone was... He was seeing Krsna everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere, even in the prison house. His brother was transported to the... He was to be hanged, and then he was transported to [indistinct]. The Bengalis...

Prabhupada: [indistinct] [break] This is the fact, that yato mata tato patha, whatever path you accept, that is alright. He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Krsna says mam ekam, and he approves anything.

Dr. Patel: He was a partial political leader also.

Prabhupada: That's all. He's a political leader.

Dr. Patel: But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free at greater purpose.

Prabhupada: That even cats and dogs, they also want that "My cats be well fed and be strong." That is not a very good decision. And Bhagavad-gita says, aratih putra-dara-grhadisu [Bg 13.10]. This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness, he's not even a man of knowledge.

Dr. Patel: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women, and one woman was intimately connected with him.

Dr. Patel: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back...

Dr. Patel: I think he was a brahmacari throughout.

Prabhupada: You do not know. There is an old man... Some old woman, he said about he's character.

Dr. Patel: Subash Candra Bose [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmaviruddhah kamo 'smi [Bg 7.11]. That is not against.

Dr. Patel: Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other Indian province.

Prabhupada: No, Bengal... They maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture.

Dr. Patel: Bengali culture is fish-eating. Even brahmanas eating.

Prabhupada: No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat... The common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed.

Dr. Patel: And eat there.

Prabhupada: No. Then he'll bring the [indistinct] and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house.

Dr. Patel: Pure vegetarianism is popular among brahmins of U.P, Gujarat and Maharashtra. And southern…Even, I mean, Delhi and….

Prabhupada: No, no... These people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong." It is wrong. "Whatever you like, you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything.

Dr. Patel: All the sons of Vallabhacarya's followers are eating.

Prabhupada: No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Krsna consciousness.

Dr. Patel: My son, who passed in M.D. first year, he does not even eat tomatoes, saying that it is red color.

Prabhupada: Tomato was not taken.

Dr. Patel: No, no. That is what he says. "I won't eat." He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian, and we would not allow even...

Prabhupada: In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not... It is red color, but everything bilati. It is called bilati baigan. So no one would touch.

Hari-sauri: Tomato?

Prabhupada: There was prejudice, because it was brought from... Even potato. Strict Hindu would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced... Just like tulasi. Tulasi plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things...

Dr. Patel: They have not allowed tulasi to be grown in America.

Prabhupada: Oh, no? Who said?

Dr. Patel: Mr. Shaheb, asked for a tulasi plant for his daughter.

Prabhupada: No, we have got so many tulasi plants.

Hari-sauri: Every one of our centers has so many tulasis.

Prabhupada: Every temple we have got big, big tulasi. Especially Hawaii we have got six-feet-high tulasi.

Dr. Patel: I have [indistinct]. They won't allow plant.

Prabhupada: No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasi. Any plant from India.

Dr. Patel: You may take away the diseases.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. Not only tulasi plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction.

Dr. Patel: But I think tulasi can be grown in all the countries. Even in the cold. Cold countries.

Prabhupada: In the cold countries with little care.

Dr. Patel: It will grow in England?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: England?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We have got tulasi.

Dr. Patel: You may have to keep it in darkhouse during winter.

Prabhupada: Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that "It is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasi plant? What you will get?" Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, baiga. [Trans_What's the use of this?] This is his culture. "Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the..."

Dr. Patel: The result will be the same as Gandhi's [indistinct]. This slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling, and those vultures sitting on the... I became spite of myself, why the hell I came in Bombay. I had to join the government medical college here. I still remember what feeling I had.

Prabhupada: You were... Two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified: "What is this?" Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he, first commandment, "Thou shall not kill."

Dr. Patel: And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple.

Prabhupada: They are very expert in killing.

Dr. Patel: I don't know how the religiosity could even...

Prabhupada: So where is religion?

Dr. Patel: They have misinterpreted religion.

Prabhupada: Therefore Bhagavata has criticized all so-called religion.

Dr. Patel: One patient of mine, Sarfaraz, he's an old convert from Hindus and Muslim. And that they do, they do this you know, what they call it, killing of their...

Prabhupada: Muslims are also restricted...

[break] ...for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmis. Actually, it is for satisfying Visnu. Without Visnu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee.

Dr. Patel: For devotee, Krsna has said, "I am yajna, and I am also hutam, and I am also performer of yajna."

Prabhupada: Yes. Because He gives the intelligence. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg 15.15]. Unless He gives smrti, he cannot chant the mantra. "Therefore actually I am performer."

Dr. Patel: Aham kratur aham yajnah...

Prabhupada: Therefore He says, "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing; I am doing. I say, 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer; I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Krsna does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah, mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg 15.15]. "Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to My desires." So I cannot do anything independently. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the Municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is, ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg 4.11].

I insist, "God, give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says that "You don't do this." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg 18.66]. "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate, you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are My son, what can I do? All right. Do it."

Dr. Patel: [laughs] "I grant you whatever you..."

Prabhupada: Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam [Bg 7.23]. "Because you are rascal, less intelligent, you are doing this, but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it."

Dr. Patel: "I grant you. And take the fruit and realize."

Prabhupada: Yes. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg 18.61]. He's there. Bhramayan sarva-bhutani [Bg 18.61]. If you have done, then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get... "Now you have created a karma. You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask maya, 'Give him this body. He wants to eat stool.' 'All right. Give him the body of a hog.' " Yantrarudhani mayaya. The yantra, the body, is supplied by maya under the order. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate [Bg 9.10].

Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gita, which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning, nonviolence. Immediately it is... What is the value? Not only Gandhi, everyone. If he can give a new interpretation... I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly [Relly?]? He wrote some Bhagavad-gita commentary as...

Dr. Patel: I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught...

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be.

Dr. Patel: ...Sanskrit to...

Prabhupada: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad-gita, patient and physician.

Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges.

Prabhupada: Ah. So he has written that Krsna is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries, without touching the spirit of Bhagavad-gita.

Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad-gita itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah.

Prabhupada: And commentary, interpretation, required when you cannot understand.

Dr. Patel: It is very easy to understand.

Prabhupada: It is very easy, and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is the fact. And perhaps this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did.

Dr. Patel: And you wrote... I have read your commentary twice, and it has become very harsh on those people.

Prabhupada: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the... They are misleading the people. If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show, because I was non-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. [break] In the beginning I thought, "Who will hear me? Better wait for the time." Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "Now you have got your svaraja. Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gita." You have seen. If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Krsna consciousness movement would have been started.

Dr. Patel: He had only anasakti-yoga. Anasakti-yoga, Second Chapter, Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: He had greatest asakti or attachment for his family. He had expanded his asakti from his family to the whole nation. That is not anasakti. Expanded asakti is not anasakti. I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anasakti. That means asakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there.

Hari-sauri: There's that story about Alexander and the thief.

Prabhupada: Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? [laughter] I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all."

[entering car]

Dr. Patel: I will drive the car for today.

Prabhupada: All right.

Dr. Patel: Thank you sir.

Prabhupada: No, no, why you say. Young man still... [break] ...the world... [break] [end]