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Prabhupada: ...forest, naked, renounced, eating fruits, but debauch number one. Markata-vairagya: monkey-renunciation. There are so many vairagis. Markata. Bhaktivinoda Thakura has said, eo 'ta eka kalira-cela: here is a disciple of Kali. Nake tilaka galai mala: but has got a tilaka on the forehead and neckbeads on the neck, but is kalira-cela, number one disciple of Kali. [Baula-saṅgita Song 6. Text 1] You know this song? This is going on. Kalira-cela.

These persons who are committing sinful life-don't say anyone [laughs] or publish-there will be trouble. But that's a fact. Those who are living in Vrndavana and acting like monkey, they'll get next life a monkey, to remain in Vrndavana, and then next life they will be liberated. In one life all their sinful activities will be punished. Because as soon as animal life is obtained, there is no more further record of the sinful life. The animals cannot make sinful activities more than what is destined by him. But their sinful activity is not taken into account. For this man who is offered this monkey's body, he suffers the inconvenience of monkey life. So his sinful activities are counteracted, and because he came to Vrndavana and lived in Vrndavana by the mercy of Radharani, next life he will be... That is the glory of Vrndavana-dhama. Otherwise, what is the explanation of these dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vrndavana? If it is dhama-aparadha, committing offense in dhama... Dhama-aparadha. As dhama-bhajana, if one undergoes devotional service out of Vrndavana and one executes devotional service in Vrndavana, that is hundred times better. Similarly, dhama-aparadha also. This aparadha, when offense is committed outside Vrndavana, that is not so grievous as committing offense in Vrndavana. Dhama-aparadha.

So the punishment is there, but the reward is also there. One life makes pardoned. Tat te 'nukampam su-samiksamano bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam [SB 10.14.8]. Therefore a devotee in a reverse condition of life, he understands that "I am punished, little punished for my previous mischievous activities. So now I am becoming liberated." So he becomes more enthused to worship the Lord, that "You are finishing my sinful reaction of life with slight punishment. Thank you very much." This is devotee. Tat te 'nukampam su-samiksamanah.

Harikesa: The dogs and the monkeys, they feel grateful?

Prabhupada: Yes, when they come to sense they feel grateful. As dogs they cannot. As dog or monkey they cannot enhance their sinful activities. It is stopped. And whatever they do, that is not taken into account. And to suffer as dog or monkey means counteracting all previous sins. One punishment finished. Then he's fully liberated.

Harikesa: I was always wondering that if somebody's desire is to commit sinful activities...

Prabhupada: No, in Kali-yuga if you desire, it is not sinful. And act...

Harikesa: If they desire to commit sinful activities, and before they became monkeys, but then they were doing it then. So whilst they're monkeys their desire must change. Or is it forced, that change forced upon them by the mercy of Krsna?

Prabhupada: But if desire changes, then where is punishment? If he's repentant, then there is no punishment.

Harikesa: So before they go back to the spiritual world that desire must change.

Prabhupada: This is forceful change.

Harikesa: Forceful change.

Prabhupada: That is the advantage of Vrndavana bhajana.

Harikesa: That is very good. [laughs]

Prabhupada: But not that willfully do something wrong. That is punishment. There is punishment. If one unconsciously, without any knowledge, does something wrong, that is excused. But they do willfully. They know it is wrong, still they do it. That is punished. Knowingly. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally said, asat eka stri-saṅgi [Cc Madhya 22.87]. Those who are habituated to illicit sex are punishable. Asat. It is very, very bad. And still if somebody does like that, he is punished. This is going on: "All right." Here, illicit sex... The babajis, I heard, they say, "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say like that. They take it as love. "Gopis' love," they say. "Gopis used to do that, used to have illicit mixing, intermingling with Krsna. What is wrong?" They'll say. They get support from krsna-lila. Such rogues they are. Sahajiyas. There are many so-called gentlemen, they write books on krsna-lila, paint picture. "This is very nice. Krsna is advocating illicit intermingling." They take it as support of their sinful activities. I have seen personally, anyone who is a woman-hunter, he's being addressed by his friend, "Oh, you are like Krsna." They take Krsna as a man. How they will take instruction of Krsna? Avajananti mam mudhah, param bhavam ajanantah [Bg 9.11]. We are teaching people to become Krsna conscious, to become servant of Krsna, and the so-called gentlemen, enlightened gentlemen, take Krsna as a debauch, black debauch.

[long pause] [break]

Prabhupada: ...Vaisnava religion is sex. [break] There are aborigines in India, Santal. They are called Santal. Black men, live in the forest like the African aborigines. So I asked him that "You, jungle, do you meet the tigers?" "Oh, yes, yes. Why not?" "So how do you save yourself?" So he had a small ax in his hand. So he showed me that "So long I have got this ax, even the tiger will not dare to attack me." [Transl. Babu, so long this ax is in my hand, they won't come.] So after all, tiger is afraid of the ae. They are afraid of even stick. That immediately they understand, "He's superior." Actually, man is superior with some weapon. I have got personal experience. He said, "He's a big tiger. But we treat them like dogs." One ax. They keep always. Just like we keep a stick, they keep one ax.

Harikesa: Last year they bit Upendra. Remember that? Upendra went to Seva-kunja and the monkeys came and took away all of his prasadam and bit him in the leg.

Prabhupada: Accha? Many monkeys were deported by the government, but people protested. They were capturing monkeys...

Harikesa: Here?

Prabhupada: Yes. Government. And selling at good price in Europe for taking their hormone. The monkey's hormones is injected or replaced so one regains his sex power. They are very sexually strong.

Harikesa: That must interfere with their monkey's spiritual life.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: That interferes with the spiritual life of the monkey? Because then he can't die in Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: It is further from them. Everything is being done by superior arrangement. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. People should learn all these things by practical example instead of becoming irresponsible and without any obedience to the superior law. They should learn it, but they have no intelligence. They think, "We are all free." Wherefrom the monkey is coming, why there are so many varieties of life, how it is...? What do they know? Nothing. All bluff, vague explanation, and that is going on in the name of science. This is the position. All rascals. How fortunate we have got this Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. All knowledge. First-class knowledge.

[break] ...eternally enjoyment. For him everything, anandamayo 'bhyasat [Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12]. Everything ananda. He has no such thing that "This is harmful," "This is useful." That is Krsna. Because nobody can do harm to Him, and neither in the spiritual world, anyone is harmful. Everyone is advanced devotee. Even the tigers, they are also devotees.

Harikesa: Tigers?

Prabhupada: Varieties are there.

Hari-sauri: They have tigers and serpents and everything like that?

Prabhupada: Everything. They are all devotees.

Harikesa: There are no dogs and hogs.

Prabhupada: Yes. The hogs may be also there.

Hari-sauri: Hogs are there as well? [laughs]

Harikesa: They are there.

Prabhupada: But they are not hog. Just like Krsna appears as hog, but that doesn't mean He's hog. Krsna appears as fish. That does not mean He's fish. Hare Krsna. [devotee offers obeisances] [end]