Audio

Prabhupada: I am sitting in this room.

Indian man: Yes.

Prabhupada: And if by force you drag me away, I shall go to another room. Because I'll have another room. But because you have forcibly driven me away, you are criminal. Similarly, a living entity is ordained to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you kill, that is the interference with his staying there. You are criminal.

Indian man: Yes, that is true.

Prabhupada: The soul is never killed. Never killed. But because you have forcibly driven away from that body, you become criminal. That is the philosophy.

Indian man: Yes. Now, assuming...

Prabhupada: So you cannot do that.

Indian man: Assuming that, everyone...

Prabhupada: Not assuming. This is the fact. [laughter]

Indian man: No, assuming this end. I am putting a question. Every man who took part in the Kuruksetra war, assuming that they are to be killed, they are destined to be killed. Then when they are killed, then Krsna's argument is the soul..., the body perishes but the soul is eternal.

Prabhupada: Soul is eternal...

Indian man: ...the soul. How you are reconciling it if you say that the... I mean what a man is different from Krsna? Or atma is different from Paramatma? If you say that, then how do you say that atma is eternal? And what is the fate of the atma?

Prabhupada: No, atma is eternal. That is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13]. Why don't you understand? Atma is eternal, God is eternal. But the difference is, next line, eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. That one atma, God, He is maintaining others, and the others are being maintained. So how you can make equal the maintainer and the maintained? First of all, try to understand.

Indian man: The question is, even if you take it, advaita philosophy also, there is a..., the atma has to go and merge with the Paramatma, but they didn't say that they're equal. I don't think even the advaita philosophy also...

Prabhupada: How they can be equal?

Indian man: They cannot be, cannot be.

Prabhupada: Cannot be, yes. But they say equal.

Indian man: No. They don't say that equal.

Prabhupada: Yes, he says like that.

Indian devotee: [indistinct]

Indian man: He doesn't say anywhere, even nowhere in the Upanisads also say that.

Indian devotee: The exihibition recently said that.

Indian man: Don't take it from one sentence and try to enlarge it. Take it in the context.

Indian devotee: I attended all the series.

Prabhupada: I do not hear. You hear, he hears. If he says something else... That... This is therefore Caitanya's philosophy is acintya-bhedabheda, that as atma, they're equal. Atma. But one is Paramatma, because He is maintainer. Therefore...

Indian man: Yes. All the creation, the world, it is one way out of that Paramatma.

Prabhupada: Paramatma. So therefore Paramatma is the Supreme, and he is subordinate. So how the Supreme and subordinate can be equal?

Indian man: No, they can never be equal. Never be equal and never and... No philosophy, even any branch of philosophy, does not say that a human being is equal to...

Prabhupada: No, their philosophy is, as you said, that this subordinate atma has forgotten that he is Paramatma.

Indian devotee: Yes, it is a main point. The seeker has forgotten that he is the sought.

Indian man: He has forgotten means simply the potential that you have within you, you have to realize it and come closer to the Paramatma. That is what it means...

Prabhupada: If you have got the potency to become Paramatma, then how you became atma?

Indian devotee: Yes.

Indian man: The potential to come near to Paramatma.

Prabhupada: Near, that is one thing. You are near to me. That means we are not equal. You are a separate person, I am a separate person.

Indian man: But even what has been told by him, he is an Advaiti, Vedanti, anybody, he doesn't come to atma is equal to Paramatma. He never says that. That mathematic equation...

Indian devotee: They say that the atma has forgotten. They say that atma has come into the clutches of the maya. When you get rid of the maya you become Paramatma.

Indian man: That is not... You don't become Paramatma. You become Paramatma means that... You don't understand Paramatma. Paramatma is the Supreme, Supreme Soul. How can you become...

Prabhupada: Then you have to accept Paramatma and atma different.

Indian man: Different, that is true.

Prabhupada: Then dvaita-vada. Where is advaita?

Indian man: Even dvaita does not, something different from advaitam, in this particular fundamental. But even advaitam does not say that atma is equal to Paramatma. He never says that. You have maya. Maya will be field to you, and that you get rid of that maya and you try to elevate your soul to the atma. And you come, go to the Paramatma.

Prabhupada: That is the beginning of spiritual lesson. Because that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. Every one of us, we are identifying with this body. Just like if somebody asks what you are, "I am Mr. Such-and-such, I am Indian, I am this, I am that." He is giving identification of the body. But that he is not. He's not this body. That is self-realization. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita, dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg 2.13], two things-deha, this body, and asmin dehe, there is dehinah, the owner of the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Because generally almost 99.9% people, they are thinking that "I am this body."

Indian man: Well, that is true, that is...

Prabhupada: So that is another thing.

Indian man: That attachment to the...

Prabhupada: Yes. That attachment or no attachment, he is different from the body. That is the first lesson of spiritual education, that one has to understand that he is not the body. That is Brahman realization.

Indian man: No, after having realized that, we have to discipline ourselves so much.

Prabhupada: Now that individual soul and the Supreme Soul, Paramatma, they are also different. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita in the Second Chapter. Krsna says, "My dear Arjuna, both you, Me and all these persons who are assembled here, we existed in the past, and we are existing now, and we shall continue to exist." So when they become one? Past, present and future. As they were different persons in the past, they are different persons now, and they will continue to remain different persons in the future. So when they become one?

Indian man: Now we take it, small particles of water makes an ocean.

Prabhupada: That cannot be. Here Krsna says that we shall remain like this in the future.

Indian man: We can't get new to be...

Prabhupada: No, there is no amalgamation. It is clearly stated.

Indian man: Even a drop of water, when you take it from the glass and put it on this one, another drop of water will come, and when you put it and mix it with one cup of water, Like that, atma, will it not merge with the Paramatma?

Prabhupada: That water is matter, that is not spirit. But we are talking of spirit. You cannot bring matter. No, that analogy cannot be, because similarity. The water is different-matter. And you are talking of spirit souls. Here it is stated that the spirit soul individually, they'll never amalgamate. Acchedyo 'yam [Bg 2.24]. They cannot be separated...

Indian man: Then what is the aim of bhakti if you are not going to merge with Paramatma?

Prabhupada: Bhakti... You try... You read carefully. Because you do not read, therefore... Nitya-yukta upasate. Nitya-yukta upasate [Bg 9.14]. When they come to the point of nitya, there also the upasana is there. One nitya is worshiping the other nitya. That is nitya-yukta upasate.

Indian man: Upasana... Upasana means...

Prabhupada: Upasana means upasaka, upasana and upasita. Three things. As soon as you bring upasana, there must be one person who is offering upasana, and there is a process of upasana, and the other person accepting upasana.

Indian man: Then we're assuming that we're..., actually the idea of suddha-bhakti is...

Prabhupada: Bhakti means that. Nitya-yukta upasana. That's all. Upasana continues. Here they're upasana. Here the devotees offering worship to the Deity, it is upasana. And after being perfect, that upasana will continue. It will never stop.

Indian man: It will never stop, that's the fact. That is, when a man attains to...

Prabhupada: But Mayavadi philosophy is that you offer upasana now, and when you are perfect you become one.

Indian man: Not one. I mean you merge with one. Not you become one. You merge with one.

Prabhupada: Then there is no advaita-vada. There is dvaita-vada. Two. There is no advaita-vada. If you accept that you remain different, then there is no advaita.

Indian man: We don't dare, do you see, accha, at a particular stage you like to merge with Him?

Prabhupada: Meeting, I am meeting you. That does not mean we have become one. You are meeting me, I am meeting you. So we are different.

Indian man: What is ultimate object of that bhakti?

Prabhupada: Ultimate object is you are offering this flower-this is bhakti. But you are different than me.

Indian man: That's all right. That is all right. That bhakti, you can call it love, you can call it in various ways. Bhakti means surrender.

Prabhupada: Bhakti means the process by which Bhagavan and bhakta interact. That is bhakti.

Indian man: That's all? He gains with that interaction?

Prabhupada: Interaction. That does not mean bhakta and Bhagavan become equal.

Indian man: Bhakta and Bhagavan may not be equal, but even the bhakti-marga, and we say the Bhagavan Himself declares that "My bhakta is more superior to Me."

Prabhupada: That's all right. You say whatever you say, they remain two-different.

Indian man: They may remain two...

Prabhupada: Then that is not advaita-vada. That is dvaita-vada. Two, two. Not one. That is dvaita-vada. That is the point.

Indian man: You mean to say eternally there is a soul and... This atma and Paramatma will remain separate?

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore the... Therefore it is said, nitya-yukta upasate. Therefore the word is there, nitya-yukta. Nitya means everlasting.

Indian man: Yes. Everlasting. We will remain separate.

Prabhupada: Separate. And that is a fact.

Devotee: Mamaivamso jiva-loke jiva-bhutah sanatanah [Bg 15.7].

Prabhupada: There are so many things. But here it is said, nitya-yukta upasate. Even they come to the platform of nitya, where there is no birth and death-that is nitya, nityah sasvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20]-even that platform, Bhagavan remains different than the devotee remains different.

Indian man: Eternally?

Prabhupada: Eternally. That is nitya-yukta upasate. There is no oneness. Otherwise why it is nitya-yukta upasate? Nityo nityanam. The nityanam, plural number, and nitya, Bhagavan. So nitya-yukta upasate.

Indian man: Then if you take the kevala-bhaktas, if you take the life of a bhakta...

Prabhupada: If you take not, it is stated there in the Bhagavad-gita.

Indian man: If you take bhakta-vidya, where so many saints like Chakubhai and Namdev and all these people. If you take it... They had..., they observed bhakti-marga from the beginning. That is, they considered Krsna...

Prabhupada: No, they have considered that the bhakti-marga is a means to become one.

Indian man: Means to become one. That's exactly what I mean.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is their version. But that is not the version of Bhagavad-gita.

Indian man: Yes, it's the only way. Bhakti-marga is only marga. It is only way to become one.

Prabhupada: No. They never become one. Therefore nitya-yukta upasate.

Indian man: Then why should we say in our...?

Prabhupada: You can say anything, but that is not accepted. We have to accept Krsna's statement. You can say anything.

Indian man: Sir, I am not saying. That is what I am taught.

Prabhupada: At least, you are saying now. So, then which one you will take? As you are taught, or as Krsna said it?

Indian man: Merge with the Lord. Mirabai: "Merge with the Lord," and Chakubhai, "Merge with the Lord."

Prabhupada: You bring thousands of examples.

Indian man: Then what is that merging?

Prabhupada: No, no. You bring thousands of examples, but whether we have to accept them or Krsna?

Indian man: I mean the doubt I am having, I mean...

Prabhupada: Then you, you now you just become out of doubt. That... Just like Krsna says in the Seventh Chapter, mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah asamsayam [Bg 7.1]. Here is asamsayam. "No doubt." Why you are in doubt? You do not accept Krsna. You accept somebody else.

Indian man: Not a question of accepting. We are all ignorant people in the field of...

Prabhupada: Therefore you are in doubt.

Indian man: We are... We have...

Prabhupada: No. Therefore you are in doubt. If you want to be doubtless, then you accept Krsna. Mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. Asrayah. Not that equal footing. Mad-asrayah. Asamsayam samagram mam yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu [Bg 7.1]. So you have to accept Krsna, if you become..., if you want to become doubtless. Otherwise, you'll be put into doubt. Here it is said asamsayam, "without any doubt." That is the process. And if you want to remain in doubt, you continue. You accept this man, that man, that man, that man, that man. That is your business. But if you want to be doubtless, then you have to accept Krsna.

Indian man: So we say in the bhakti-marga for eternally the Paramatma and atma will remain separate, separate entities.

Prabhupada: And that is always. You cannot become one with Him.

Indian man: Then in what levels the man got to remain in a separate entity? Always in the same as bhakta?

Prabhupada: Nitya-yukta upasate. The one is worshipable, another is worshiper. That's all. Nitya-yukta upasate. Upasate means the worshipable is there and the worshiper is there. Then the question of upasana. If they become one, then where is upasana?

Indian man: Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling. At one stage...

Prabhupada: But that is not the fact. Here it is said upasate. Upasate means he worships. So if he loses his existence, then where is worship?

Indian man: No. Atman's got to go on practicing and try to become pure and purer and pure, at one stage.

Prabhupada: Without being pure you cannot go there. There is no question of upasana.

Unless you are completely free from all sinful reaction, there is no upasana. That is practice. That is practice. Just like neophyte, one is practicing. Just like one student is practicing. That is sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah. [SB 11.2.47] This is material. But when you are pakka, practiced, then you go to the nitya-dhama. And your business is the same. Here it is practice and there it is permanent. That's all. Nitya-yukta upasate. The upasana continues.

Indian man: That is. Then our object is to get rid of the birth, birth and death, that we want to be eternal. From there you want to get rid of your birth and death. That is birth and death.

Prabhupada: Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gita, na jayate na mriyate va [Bg 2.20].

Indian man: Yes, you are trying to do sadhanas to see what...

Prabhupada: First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body.

Indian man: Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the atma different from the body. That is the foregone conclusion.

Prabhupada: Birth and death applies to the body, not to the soul.

Indian man: Yes. That, your karmas, you enjoy and suffer according to your karma.

Prabhupada: That is body, all body.

Indian man: That is body. How long you are going to do that?

Prabhupada: So long you are not a devotee.

Indian man: I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins...

Prabhupada: You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya-yukta upasate.

Indian man: Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee...

Prabhupada: When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world, and your engagement is upasana eternally.

Indian man: The eternal world. What is that eternal world?

Prabhupada: That you do not know? You read, study. Have you studied Bhagavad-gita? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world. Do you know that?

Indian man: Our sastras say eternal world...

Prabhupada: Then why do you...?

Indian man: Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in moksa there.

Prabhupada: So that is moksa. When you go to the eternal world, that is moksa. That is moksa.

Indian man: Do you separate the eternal world from the Paramatma? It is something, a world like our material world that we have got, physical world that we have got, is going to be out of, the eternal world?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktat sanatanah [Bg 8.20]. This word is used, sanatana. Sanatana means eternal. There is another world. Paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktat sanatanah. Find out this verse. Everything is there.

Hari-sauri: We have to start packing up now. It's quarter past six. We have to leave in ten minutes.

Prabhupada: So now we have to stop. We have to leave. You just refer that verse.

Prabhupada: Na vinasyati. The material world will be finished, and that will remain.

Basu Ghosh: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is."

Prabhupada: That is sanatana.

Basu Ghosh: "Krsna's superior spiritual energy is transcendental and eternal. It is beyond all the changes of material nature, which is manifest and annihilated during the days and nights of Brahma. Krsna's superior energy is completely opposite in quality to material nature. Superior and inferior nature are explained in the Seventh Chapter." And the next verse?

Prabhupada: No, that's all right. There is an eternal world, sanatana. That is never annihilated. So when you go to that sanatana-dhama, God is there, sanatana, and there you live eternally and go on rendering service to God. That is all. There is no question of oneness. The variety is there, but there the varieties are eternal; here the varieties are temporary. That is difference. Everything is explained. So thank you very much.

Devotee: Hare Krsna.

Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [end]