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Guru-gauraṅga: ...science and knowledge for man, and it is a manual. And he has an asrama here. And this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami. Monsieur Roost does not speak English, so...

M. Roost: Oh, yeah, I understand a little, but I cannot speak easily.

Prabhupada: That doesn't matter.

M. Roost: But I [indistinct]...

Prabhupada: It is a little technical subject, so translation. We... Our Bhagavad-gita, there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1], the yogis, they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions: sagarbha-yogi, nigarbha-yogi. So what is your special subject matter of yogi?

M. Roost: I try to make a yoga with understanding from occident... I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma-yoga. There are dynamics, and... I don't understand that we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of hatha-yoga that posture and pranayama and concentration. I try to...

Prabhupada: Beginning from abdomen?

M. Roost: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different technique. One is praja, prajapa...

Prabhupada: They begin from the abdomen, manipuraka, manipuraka. And then the intestines. Then they come to the heart; then, ultimately, to the brahma-randhra. This practice?

M. Roost: Yes, it's a practice of kundalini-yoga, but very, very tempered, tempere, moderate. It is not the kundalini-yoga with strong pranayama. It's more a question of conscious of awareness of the breathing and...

Prabhupada: Awareness of...?

M. Roost: Of breathing. Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in...

Prabhupada: Pranayama. This is pranayama.

M. Roost: And you must have the conscious of your breathing from muladhara to ajna, and ajna through the lateral[?] column to muladhara. This is one example. And it's a general technique of concentration. For example, to...

Prabhupada: That I already said, dhyanavasthita, dhyana avasthita. Dhyana means meditation, and situated, avasthita. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa, by mind, pasyanti yam yoginah. So these processes are approved, but they are more or less on the bodily concept of life.

M. Roost: Is according to...?

Prabhupada: As the karmis, they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet. Like that. So they are all karmis. Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmis. So karmi means they want comfort of this body. And the yogis, they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upadhi-brahma, "Brahman with designation." But their central point is this body. That... This bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogi or jnana-yogi, it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sayujya-mukti, this is called, technically. The jnanis also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sarupya-mukti, brahma-salokya-mukti, brahma-sarsti-mukti. So generally, the yogis and the jnanis, they aim at brahma-sayujya-mukti, to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yogam. After advancing, if the yogi gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection.

M. Roost: Yes. I think so. But this, the ultimate, is very, very far for European people, I think. It's like in the yoga of Patanjali, it's eight..., eight-path.

Prabhupada: Astaṅga-yoga, astaṅga.

M. Roost: Yes, astaṅga-yoga. The last part of the evolution. I think first we must through the body find the balance. With the balance of our body, we can go after to the balance of our ego, of cessation, and after this, perhaps, we are able to sacrifice all to the Lord.

Prabhupada: Sacrifice for whom?

M. Roost: Yes. Without intention.

Satsvarupa: The Lord, he said.

M. Roost: Without personal intention.

Prabhupada: I'll speak.

Satsvarupa: I'm sorry.

Prabhupada: Sacrifice... Intention means personal intention. Otherwise, intention to satisfy the Lord, that is required. That is bhakti. We are not intentionless, but purified intention.

M. Roost: And what is your practice? Technically, I think.

Prabhupada: Yes, technically, it begins with hearing, sravanam, to hear about God. Just like Bhagavad-gita: we hear from God personally.

M. Roost: But with... Through lecture? Through sound?

Prabhupada: Yes, through sound vibration.

M. Roost: And repeat and...

Prabhupada: Sabdad anavrttih. In the Vedanta-sutra there is, "By hearing the sound, one becomes immortal." So...

M. Roost: It's like japa, japa-yoga, for example.

Prabhupada: That is later. That is later on. For beginning you have simply to give submissive aural reception. That is the first beginning. Sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-vaṅ-manobhih [SB 10.14.3].

Our process is jnane prayasam udapasya. I know something, or I can know the Supreme, by my knowledge. "I am something, I am very important," our process is to forget this first of all. This is called humbleness, submissive. Generally, the jnanis, yogis, they are thinking that they can do something by their own endeavor. Our process is different, that "I am limited. My endeavor is limited. My knowledge is limited. So I cannot realize the Unlimited by these limited resources." This is our first submission, jnane prayasam udapasya, that "I am limited; I am not unlimited." That's a fact. So how can I know the Unlimited by my limited activities? This is our first step, submissiveness. Just like in the Vedic literature it is stated that Maha-Visnu, the plenary expansion of Govinda, from His breathing innumerable universes are coming and going. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah [Bs 5.48].

So we cannot conceive even of this universe. And innumerable universes are coming and going during the breathing period of Maha-Visnu. And that Maha-Visnu is the plenary expansion of Govinda. So this is the position of Govinda. So therefore our process is not to try by our limited endeavor to understand the unlimited. This is our first proposal. Better be submissive and hear from the Lord or from the representative of the Lord about Him. Jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva. [aside:] Call Nitai.

This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's first admission, that this way one can...

[to Nitai:] Find out this verse. Jnane prayasam udapasya.

Nitai: Jnane prayasam yugapasya?

Prabhupada: It is not in Bhagavad-gita.

Nitai: In the Bhagavatam?

Prabhupada: In the Srimad-Bhagavatam. But...

Nitai: Oh, that's jnana prayasam...

Prabhupada: In the Caitanya-caritamrta.

Nitai: That's Tenth Canto, Chapter Fourteen. Verse twenty [SB 10.14.20].

Prabhupada: Yes. You can find out in Caitanya-caritamrta. In the Krsna book we find out, when Brahma is offering prayers to Krsna. Brahma is offered. I think, first part.

Satsvarupa: This is in English. What would it be?

Nitai: It would be about the fourteenth paragraph. About the fourteenth paragraph.

Pusta Krsna: Maha-Visnu [indistinct].

Prabhupada: No, not that.

Guru-gauraṅga: We don't know this universe, so there are so many innumerable universes.

Prabhupada: Fourteenth paragraph, what is written?

Satsvarupa: Fourteenth is "Lord Brahma admitted that his birth was from the lotus flower which blossomed from the navel of Narayana."

Nitai: Here it says 10.14.3, the third paragraph.

Prabhupada: Jito 'pi. Jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyam. Where we have explained in English. What is the...? Madhya-lila?

Nitai: This is Madhya-lila, Eighth Chapter.

Prabhupada: You have got?

Nitai: Not here. It's in Bombay.

Prabhupada: No, Eighth Chapter we have translated? So why not...

Nitai: Yes. Manuscript is there in Bombay.

Prabhupada: No, no. We have published this book up to Eleventh Chapter.

Nitai: Not published yet. No.

Prabhupada: What is this book, this Caitanya-caritamrta?

Nitai: That is Adi-lila. Adi-lila, not Madhya-lila.

Prabhupada: Oh, not Madhya-lila.

Nitai: No. Third paragraph, it should begin.

Satsvarupa: The third paragraph of the chapter?

Nitai: Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad-gita and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor."

Prabhupada: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender, and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad-gita is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahma is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is... Especially in the Western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma Purana there is statement of different species of life, jalaja nava-laksani, statement that "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No, 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati [Padma Purana]. Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained: kesagra-sata-bhagasya [Svetasvatara Upanisad 5.9]. In the Upanisad also it is stated that ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair point is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas, that is taken as Absolute Truth, and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion.

So we think that by experimental knowledge, why should we waste our time? Better take the truth which is already stated in the Vedic literature and build up your farther premises on that basic principle. Just like that small fragment of spirit, one ten-thousandth portion of the top of the hair, is there within you, within me, and that is rotating through the air, prana, apana, vyana, like that, the vayu. The yogic process is to capture it. But that is a fact, that the spirit soul is there within this body. It is a fact. So either you try to understand or capture it by the yogic process or you know it, that there is the soul within the body, the result is the same. Therefore you will find in the Bhagavad-gita at the end of the Sixth Chapter that the bhakta-yogi is the topmost yogi.

Yogi, first-class yogi, is he who is always thinking of Krsna. Just like I am talking also, thinking of Krsna: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna. As soon I stop talking, immediately my "Hare Krsna" goes on. So remembrance is there, we don't forget Krsna... [break] ...thinking about Krsna. So naturally, krsna-samadhi. If one continues in this attitude, always to be absorbed in Krsna... And Krsna recommends, "Such person is the topmost yogi."

It is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice... This practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Krsna mantra and thinking of Krsna. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita: yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg 8.6]. If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death he thinks of Krsna, then his life is perfect. Yam yam vapi smaran?

Nitai:

Prabhupada: Sada tad-bhava-bhavitah. Yes, this is very important.

Nitai: "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits this body, that state he will attain without fail."

Prabhupada: So we are practicing this bhakti-yoga and teaching others also.

M. Roost: And when people is not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to..., when his mind is not prepared to his life, what are you doing? How can you educate people to come vegetarian and...?

Prabhupada: No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to...

M. Roost: Yes, but European people. Occidental people is not to be...

Prabhupada: They are all occidental.

Prabhupada: Occidental means Eastern, er, Western? Yes.

Nitai: Western.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are all Western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said, "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as grhastha, live. If you want to live as vanaprastha or as sannyasa... So generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the sastra. But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life.

M. Roost: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible.

M. Roost: I am according, but how to understand, how to make understand these things?

Prabhupada: This is plain understanding. Just like physician says that "If you eat these things, then you will not be cured." A physician should straightly speak to the patient, "You should not do this. Then you will be cured." If he does not agree, then he will not be cured. It is like that. If you remain sinful, then you cannot make any spiritual progress of life. That is going on. All the svamis, yogis and... Don't mind; I have seen. They keep them in the sinful life and talk very big, big words. That will not help. Sinful life must be stopped. Then yoga practice will be successful. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati siddhih [Bg 6.17].

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. If you are yogi, if you want siddhi, then you must eat and sleep and accept things-yukta. Yukta means "as it is required." Not more than that; not less than that. That is yukta. We don't say that you starve. No, we don't say. We give them eatables. We don't say there is no sex life. Sex life is there, but married, simply for begetting children. Otherwise, no sex life. Not for sense gratification. If these things go on... In New York there is a yogi-I do not wish to name his... But in the paper it was published that he was having sex with his disciple. Is it not?

Nitai: Yes, it is.

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone knows. What is this? [laughing] Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogi. Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life? [long pause]

M. Roost: I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way very strong, with a technique with a little different as yoga. For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux, like aikido, judo and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Guru-gauraṅga: To transcend death.

M. Roost: Death, yes. How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, combat, the combat...

Guru-gauraṅga: Combat. Fighting.

M. Roost: Fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple...

Prabhupada: [coughing] Water, little.

M. Roost: ...to make the problem very, very clear, and they fight with arm, sword, is to see what people is able to do in front of the death. Master is coming with an assam[?]...

Guru-gauraṅga: A sword.

M. Roost: ...and he makes like he will kill the disciple, and disciple must learn to be calm in front of the death. It is so... We can say it's a practice, a psychological practice to...

Prabhupada: No, why the master will kill the disciple? What is this practice?

M. Roost: No, he don't kill, but he make like he will killed, but he don't killed. Of course not. [laughs]

Prabhupada: That is another...

M. Roost: But it's like a game, we can say, to learn little by little to be the master of our ego, and finally to go through the ego. And I think it's a way very interesting. But...

Prabhupada: Hmm. That is automatically taught in bhakti-yoga. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. It is said, "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga. But if the master is such [chuckles] a rascal that if he asks the disciple that "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, astaṅga-yoga, first is samyama. Yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara, samadhi, like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama.

M. Roost: Yes, and first is yama and niyama.

Prabhupada: I know several yogis, so-called yogis, in New York, they are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. Here, and in the America, there are so many women, they have no husband. So naturally they want sex life with others. And there are many such persons take advantage of this. Take fees also. [chuckles] Take fees. [pause] You read the Sixth Chapter, "Yoga Practice" portion? How to sit, how to look, how to behave?

M. Roost: Yoga is not for people who is eating too much and sleeping too much. Not sleeping.

Nitai: It says,

Prabhupada: The first condition is eka, "alone." Now where is that facility? Actually, yogis used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, not in the city, with so many people. Ekaki, this word is used.

M. Roost: Eka...?

Prabhupada: Ekaki. Ekaki means alone.

[to Nitai:] Eh? Go on.

Nitai: Yata-cittatma nirasir aparigrahah.

Prabhupada: Nirasi means without any motive. And aparigraha, without accepting anything from anyone else. Aparigraha. Then?

Nitai: It says, sucau dese pratisthapya.

Prabhupada: Sucau dese, means a very sanctified place. Therefore Indian yogis, they go to Haridwar, Himalaya. Eh?

Nitai: Sthiram asanam.

Prabhupada: Sthiram asanam. Asanam, you must be fixed up. The yogis will not leave their asana. Sthiram asanam. Then?

Nitai: Naty-ucchritam nati-nicam.

Prabhupada: They must not very much raise; not very much lower. Then?

Nitai: Cailajina-kusottaram.

Prabhupada: Cailajina-kusottaram. That kusa, the straw, and the deerskin, cailajina-kusottaram. Then?

Nitai: Tatraikagram manah krtva.

Prabhupada: Eka-brahma. Meditation, concentrated, manah krtva.

Nitai: Yata-cittendriya-kriyah.

Prabhupada: Yata-cittendriya-kriyah.

Nitai: Upavisyasane yunjyad yogam atma-visuddhaye.

Prabhupada: Yes. Upavisyasane, sitting on the asana, one should be purified. Then?

Nitai: Samam kaya-siro-grivam.

Prabhupada: Yes. Samam kaya-siro. The kaya, this body, and the neck and the head in straight line. Then?

Nitai: Dharayann acalam sthirah.

Prabhupada: Acalam, without any movement. Then?

Nitai: Sampreksya nasikagram svam.

Prabhupada: And half eyes open, and seeing the point of the nose.

Nitai: Disas canavalokayan.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Not to look any other way; simply... These are the practice. Who is going to do that? Ekaki, alone in a sanctified place, making the asana, doing like that. Then? Go on.

Nitai: Says, prasantatma vigata-bhir.

Prabhupada: No fear. He is sitting alone in the Himalaya, no..., not afraid of anything, vigata-bhi. Then?

Nitai: Brahmacari-vrate sthitah.

Prabhupada: Brahmacari. This is very... No sex life. Brahmacari-vrata. And they are taking fees, they are having sex with the disciple. That yogis. Just see. This is going on. Brahmacari-vrate?

Nitai: Manah samyamya mac-cittah.

Prabhupada: Ah, manah samyamya mac-cittah: "Always thinking of Me," visnu-murti or krsna-murti. Then?

Nitai: Yukta asita mat-parah.

Prabhupada: Ah, yukta asita mat-parah: "Always thinking of Me." Then?

Nitai: Yunjann evam sadatmanam yogi niyata-manasah.

Prabhupada: "In this way, one who practices yoga..."

Nitai: Santim nirvana-paramam.

Prabhupada: "...then he gets santim nirvana."

Nitai: Mat-samstham adhigacchati.

Prabhupada: Mat-samstham. "Then he is promoted to the Brahman effulgence." That means he surpasses the material existence. Then?

Nitai: Naty asnatas tu yogo 'sti.

Prabhupada: Ah, naty asnatah. It is not that you should not eat, abstain. No. Eat very little. So?

Nitai: Na caikantam anasnatah.

Prabhupada: Ah. Not to eat more, not to eat less. Whatever will sustain you, you must eat.

Nitai: Na cati-svapna-silasya.

Prabhupada: "Neither sleep very deeply nor sleep less." Then?

Nitai: Jagrato naiva carjuna. Yuktahara-viharasya...

Prabhupada: Yuktahara-viharasya.

Nitai:

Prabhupada: Hmm. These are the actual yoga practice. They are all described in the Bhagavad-gita.

That's all. [end]