730227R1.JKT

[Poor Audio]

Scholar: This Bhagavad-gita translated into Indonesian.

[pause]

[01:45]

Prabhupada: So will you explain me in English some of the Fourth, Fourth Chapter?

Scholar: Fourth Chapter.

[pause]

This about yoga. About yoga, Fourth Chapter.

Prabhupada: What is the subject matter?

Scholar: About that yoga has been taught by Vivasvan, and Vivasvan taught to Manu, and Manu taught to Iksvaku.

Prabhupada: So only the translation is there?

Scholar: Yes. Translation and some explanations.

Prabhupada: What is that explanation?

Scholar: He said that Vivasvan's just the personification of Surya, the sun-god. He is the first man created by Brahman, and he learns yoga from Brahman itself. And then we...

Vivasvan taught yoga to Manu, who is the creator of the law, and of institutions. Just explaining only the..., who is Iksvaku, who is Vivasvan, and so on. There's no philosophical explanation here. Just word-by-word explanations. Because of course, if you compare with...

Prabhupada: But, er... He said that indirectly... In the Bhagavad-gita, the original verse can you read? Original verse?

Scholar: Sri bhagavan uvaca: imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg 4.1].

Prabhupada: Yes. This bhagavan uvaca.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: "The Personality of Godhead said."

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now, "I spoke this." He says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham. So Krsna says, Bhagavan says, that "I spoke." But the translation is that the Brahma spoke.

Scholar: No. Sri Bhagavan spoke. [indistinct] Sri Bhagavan spoke that...

Prabhupada: Sri Bhagavan spoke.

Scholar: Yes, Sri Bhagavan spoke.

Prabhupada: But you told me Brahma.

Scholar: No. Sri Bhagavan spoke, telling people, telling Arjuna that yoga has been taught by God to Vivasvan.

Prabhupada: God. God, "By Me." He said that "I taught."

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: But why the translation that God said Brahma... Bhagavan said that this was spoken by Brahma?

Scholar: By...? No, in explanations...

Prabhupada: No, not explanation. First in the translation.

Scholar: In the translation. Mentions "I", "I," mentioned. [Indonesian]

Prabhupada: That is all right.

Scholar: Yes. It's mentioned there.

Prabhupada: That is all right.

Scholar: Yes, it's mentioned there.

Prabhupada: Bhagavan, Bhagavan said that "I spoke." Is that?

Scholar: Bhagavan said that "Yoga has been taught by Me to Vivasvan."

Prabhupada: That's nice. That's nice.

Scholar: Yes. And then Vivasvan taught it to Manu and so on.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: This is nice translation.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: But you had explained...

Scholar: Then explanation that Vivasvan is the personification of Surya, and he is the first man...

Prabhupada: What do you mean by personification?

Scholar: As the... Personification; embodiment of Surya. So Surya is supposed to be...

Prabhupada: No. He says that "I spoke to Surya, Vivasvan." Vivasvan.

Scholar: Vivasvan. Yes.

Prabhupada: So Vivasvan is a person.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Vivasvan is a person, not the personification. What is the translation..., explanation? Read it.

Scholar: Vivasvan, in Indonesian is, Vivasvan [Indonesian], is supposed to be...

Prabhupada: Now what we have translated?

Srutakirti: "The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvan. Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Iksvaku. "

Prabhupada: Now what is the explanation?

Srutakirti: "Herein we find the history of the Bhagavad-gita traced from a remote time when it was delivered to the royal order, the king of all planets. This science is especially meant for the perfection of the inhabitants, and therefore, the royal order should understand it in order to be able to rule the citizens and protect them from the material bondage, lust.

Human life is meant for cultivation of spiritual knowledge, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the executive heads of all states and all planets are obliged to impart this lesson to the citizens by education, culture and devotion. In other words, the executive heads of all states are intended to spread the science of Krsna consciousness so that the people may take advantage of this great science and pursue a successful path, utilizing the opportunity of the human form of life..."

Prabhupada: This Vivasvan is the original person of the ksatriya family, Surya-vamsa.

Scholar: Surya-vamsa.

Prabhupada: Yes. Eh?

Srutakirti: Does he mention Vivasvan here? Should I read it?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Srutakirti: "The sun is the king of the planets, and the sun-god, at present of the name Vivasvan, rules..."

Prabhupada: At the present moment, the president, or the predominating person, his name is given, Vivasvan.

Scholar: He's a person. He's a man.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Scholar: From Surya-vamsa, from the [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Not from Surya-vamsa. He's the origin of Surya-vamsa.

Scholar: Origin of Surya-vamsa.

Prabhupada: Ah.

Scholar: A thing about the Bhagavad-gita also mentioned here, in the second verse, it's mentioned also that the Bhagavad-gita is the oldest yoga. It's the oldest... Second Chapter, second verse.

Prabhupada: No, the thing is... The explanation: Vivasvan is personification of Surya. No. He's person.

Scholar: Person. I see. Yes. Person and...

Prabhupada: His name is Vivasvan.

Scholar: I see.

Prabhupada: The predominating deity in the sun planet, his name is Vivasvan.

Scholar: Vivasvan, yes. And he's supposed to be the originator of...

Prabhupada: He's the original person for the... There are two kinds of ksatriyas: one coming from the sun-god, and the other is coming from the moon-god. Candra-vamsa, surya-vamsa.

Scholar: That's a very good correction for us. [Indonesian]

Prabhupada: Personification means he... From the transla..., explanation it appears that actually there is no person.

Scholar: Yes. Originally there was person.

Prabhupada: Not was. Is. Is still.

Scholar: Is still.

Prabhupada: Yes. Their life is long duration.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: There are kings, son of the Manus, they lived for eight..., eleven arbuda years. One arbuda years means ten crores. One crore means ten millions. Ten million. So ten million years makes one crore. Such eleven crore years yes... There is history, [indistinct]-pita, one of the Manu, he reigned over for eleven arbuda years.

One arbuda means ten millions of years. So Vivasvan, Vivasvan, he's living for so many years. Just like Brahma's age is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita.

[aside:] You find out the verse, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmano viduh [Bg 8.17]. What is the Chapter?

Srutakirti: Chapter Eight, 17.

Prabhupada: Chapter Eight, seventeenth verse.

Srutakirti: Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmano viduh [Bg 8.17].

Prabhupada: Now what is the translation?

Amogha: "By human calculations..."

Prabhupada: No, no, I want to know this gentleman.

Scholar: "He who knows that the day of Brahman is thousand yuga and that the night of Brahman is also thousand yugas is he who knows the truth of day and night."

Prabhupada: So now, what is the explanation?

Scholar: The explanation is that, according to the traditions that Brahman, the day or the night of Brahmans is one thousand yuga.

Prabhupada: What is that yuga?

Scholar: It's mentioned in Chapter 4.8. Four, verse eight. Yuga is eight. One yuga is..., it's written here hundred years.

Prabhupada: He does not know. He does not know what is yuga.

Scholar: One yuga is this one-eighths between the one incarnations to another incarnations.

Prabhupada: But he has not given actual calculation of the years.

Scholar: The years, he mentioned here.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Scholar: Only the yuga of..., Krta-yuga is four thousand years. And Treta-yuga is three thousand years.

Prabhupada: No.

Scholar: Dvapara-yuga is two thousand years, and Kali-yuga is one thousand years.

Prabhupada: One thousand years? [laughs] We have already passed five thousand years.

Scholar: Wait. Oh. There is one thousand years, God's years. If it is human years, it is four million three thousand..., three hundred twenty thousand years.

Prabhupada: Total. There is...

Scholar: Four millions and...

Prabhupada: That is the total yuga.

Scholar: Yes, in human years.

Prabhupada: Human calculation.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Then it is alright.

Indonesian Scholar: Four million three thous..., four, three, two...

Prabhupada: About forty-three. About forty-three hundred thousands of years.

Scholar: Forty-three.

Prabhupada: Hundred thousands of years. That makes it yuga.

Scholar: Yuga, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. And Brahma's daytime is such forty-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand.

Scholar: By one thousand.

Prabhupada: Forty-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand. So forty-three hundred thousand... That forty-three, five zero, and again three zero. Then how..., what it comes?

Scholar: Forty-three millions.

Prabhupada: Eh? Forty-three, five zero... Upon forty-three, add eight zeros. Then what it comes to?

Scholar: Ah. [devotees try to calculate]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Scholar: [Indonesian] Billion. Four billions of years. Four billion years.

Prabhupada: Four billion years is twelve hours of Brahma's life.

Scholar: [laughs] Just one day only.

Prabhupada: One day only. Similarly, one night. Then one day.

Scholar: So we have got eight billion years, one day of Brahma.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that is the calculation.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So things are very complicated, and people should understand very rightly. They are..., they are frog philosophy. Frog philos... We say frog philosophy. Frog philosophy means that a frog who lives in the well, he has got experience of water, three cubic feet. And if he's given to understand that there is Atlantic Ocean, it is very difficult for him to understand. So on the whole, it is... But it is not very completely explained. And our point is this... Or at least it will give some idea of the Bhagavad-gita to the people.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: But still it has to be expanded, it has to be more explicitly ex..., advertised. So our point is this, that we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gita. This Krsna consciousness movement means that we are spreading the knowledge of Bhagavad-gita. So this is a worldwide organization, and you know something about us, about this movement. So this part of the world... This is Southeast Asia?

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Southeast Asia. Why not combine it, join together, and scientifically preach this cult of Krsna consciousness? People will be very glad to accept it.

Scholar: What is the place of Srimad-Bhagavatam here, in this movement?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Scholar: Srimad-Bhagavatam?

Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam is... The Bhagavad-gita is the preliminary study of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Just like before learning any literature, one has to read the first book, A-B-C-D. The Bhagavad-gita is the A-B-C-D. It is just beginning of understanding of what is God. A-B-C-D. When one has passed the entrance examination, then he gets the opportunity of studying Srimad-Bhagavatam. In the Bhagavad-gita the last instruction is, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. That Krsna, the Supreme Lord, is explaining Himself, and at last He says that "You surrender unto Me." That is the most confidential part of knowledge.

So if one has surrendered to Krsna, then he is admitted in the college of studying Bhagavata. Before that, he has no place. Just like without passing entrance examination, nobody's admitted in the college course. Similarly, without understanding Bhagavad-gita perfectly well, one cannot understand what is Bhagavata. Bhagavata is the graduate study. So this Vedanta-sutra, the Vedanta-sutra is the summarized study of all Vedic knowledge. And Srimad-Bhagavatam is the explanation of Vedanta-sutra.

So people are in darkness about this great knowledge of the science of God all over the world. They are misled. They're being misled. Misled in this way: that this human form of life is specially meant for understanding God. The animals are not meant for this [indistinct], but the present leaders, they're keeping all human being in the animal condition of life. Their chance of becoming conscious about God is being sacrificed, being misled, by so-called economic development, plans. All this economic development means they're meant for this bodily comforts. Any department of knowledge at the present moment, they're simply aiming at giving some artificial comfort to this body. But these rascals, they do not care to know that however I keep this body comfortably, I'll have to give it up. And after giving up this body, what is my next position they do not know. They do not know. This is darkness. This is darkness.

So this Krsna consciousness movement is a educational movement to give enlightenment to the people at large to understand the values of life. Not to live like animals-eating, sleeping, sex life and dying. This is animal life. So this is the best humanitarian welfare activities: to make people understand scientifically what he is, what is God, what is our relationship with God. So the Bhagavad-gita is the preliminary study of this science. So this should be presented very scientifically, one who knows perfectly well about this Bhagavad-gita. These are the crucial point, that one... Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg 4.1]. There's so many very touch point. If they are not very..., explained nicely, people will remain in darkness.

Scholar: But we think in the present day, Indonesians, we think about harmonizing spiritual and material aspects of life. This our states here, what they...

Prabhupada: No. No. Harmonize means... First of all you must know what is harmonization. Harmonization means that this material life means bodily concept of life. This is material life: "I am this body." Generally people think like that: "I am Indonesian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." And they take care of the country where he's born. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tridhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma ijyadhih [SB 10.84.13].

But this conception, bodily conception of life, has made the whole human society like cats and dogs. "It is my land. It is my..." Just like a dog, as soon as another dog comes. "Gow-gow-gow-gow. Why you have come here? Why you have come here?" So this, this kind of harmonization is dog civilization.

Scholar: Well, I think it's the...

Prabhupada: No. No. No. You cannot... First of all we have to understand what is spiritual value of life. Then we can harmonize. If you do not know what is spiritual life, then what you can harmonize? That is the teaching of Bhagavad-gita. In the beginning, when Arjuna accepted Krsna as guru, then He began to explain about the value of life. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam [Bg 2.13].

[aside:] Find out this verse. It's in the Second Chapter. Which verse?

Srutakirti: Two, thirteen.

Prabhupada: Second Chapter, thirteenth verse. Find out. Read it.

Scholar:

Prabhupada: Yes. Translation.

Scholar: "After using this body..."

Prabhupada: After...?

Scholar: "After using this body from childhood to youth and to old age, and afterwards changes into another body. He who is wise will not be..., will not be disturbed."

Prabhupada: Disturbed. Now, here is the indication that after death we have to accept another body. Is it not?

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now, what kind of body you are going to accept? There are 8,400,000 varieties of bodies. Is it not? Eh? Do you know that?

Scholar: No, we don't know. [laughs] So many kinds, so many varieties of bodies.

Prabhupada: There are forms of body in the water, in the land, so many trees, plants, then there are so many insects, reptiles. Then birds, then there are beasts, then there are human being. So there are 8,400,000 forms of body. So here it is indicated that after giving up this body, the soul is going to accept another body. Now the human civilization, is it not duty of the human society to know what kind of body I am going to accept?

Scholar: No, I think it's up to God and karma-kanda.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Scholar: Up to God and karma-kanda.

Prabhupada: So then they must know what is karma-phala. This is the fact. Karmana daiva netrena [SB 3.31.1]. But they are..., do not know how to execute karma. They're doing all kinds of sinful activities. So, suppose after this body, on account of my sinful activities, I am going to become a rat or cat or snake or a tree, then what is the use of my so much, how you'd say, jumping over nationalism and this "ism" and that.

If by nature I am going to accept next life the body of a cat and dog, or a tree, then what is the meaning of my this so-called nationalism at the present moment? Is it not the duty of the guardians who are taking care of the people, or their son, to educate human being in such a way that they can get better body? Where is that education? You are darkness; nobody knows what kind of body he's going to accept next life.

Scholar: At least we can start from living a moral life.

Prabhupada: But they're not living. They're not living. They are doing all kinds of sinful activities. They are drinking, they are having illicit sex, they're gambling, they're killing animals. Very sin... Everyone is engaged in these things. Maybe few percentage people are not engaged. But the throughout the whole world they're implicated in these four kinds of sinful activities. How you can expect that he's going to have next body very nice? No. That is not possible if we believe in the karma, according to karma.

Just like here in the human society there is law that if you kill a man, you should be also killed. Similarly, in God's law, so the same law is there. Mam sa, mamsa. If I eat an animal, then he will have the chance to eat me next life. This is karma. Who is caring for all these things? Who is caring? Nobody's caring. They're slaughtering animals like anything. So this kind of adjustment will not help. They must know scientifically what is the value of life. They must take information from authorized scriptures. Then the human society will be profitable. Otherwise no.

Just like there is next life, a boy is educated to have good education so that in the next life-means when he's young man-he will be happy. He's preparing for the next life. The boy is being educated. That means he's preparing for the next youthful life. The youthful life is meant for preparation for the next old age life. Then what we are preparing now for the next body? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

So where is that education?

Scholar: I think it's also according to the society. First we have to learn, and after we come to the stage of sannyasi, only then we are...

Prabhupada: It is no question of sannyasa. Sannyasa, you take or not take, you must be in knowledge what is your next life.

Scholar: But if the...?

Prabhupada: Do you mean to say we shall keep ourself in darkness about our next life? Is that your philosophy?

Scholar: Well, I think we have to start from child... We give a child educations, and then grhastha and vanaprastha...

Prabhupada: That is all right, grhastha, vanaprastha, that is a..., different stages.

Scholar: So if everybody is...

Prabhupada: But the real education is that you have to die. You have to accept another body. What kind of body you are going to accept? If you do not know that, what is this meaning of grhastha and vanaprastha and sannyasa? It is all rascal. If you do not... You miss this real point, then what is this meaning of this? There's no meaning. Simply by dressing in white cloth one becomes grhastha? And simply by dressing one, in this saffron cloth, he becomes sannyasi? By changing dress he becomes everything? He must know that what is the aim of life. Everyone should know what is the ultimate goal of life.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: If he does not know, if he is in the darkness for the next life, then what is the meaning of this grhastha and vanaprastha and this...?

Scholar: We believe in the stage of life, so we prepare from childhood, and after grhastha...

Prabhupada: Yes, not only we, but everyone should prepare from the childhood. This is... This Bhagavad-gita is not meant for a particular class of men. It is meant for the human society. So this education should be spread all over the world to save them from pitfalls of a life of darkness. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. We do not mean that the Bhagavad-gita is meant for the Hindus or for the Indians or for the Indonesians. No. It is meant for everyone. They should know the science.

Scholar: Are there Christian also, or Muslim also joining this...

Prabhupada: What's this? Don't you see? There are many Christians, many...

Scholar: Do they have to be Hindus first?

Prabhupada: Well, why you are stressing to become Hindu and Christian? It is that education for understanding the values of life.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is not the question of Hindu, Muslim. Any intelligent man will take it. Suppose if you want to be a great mathematician, does it mean that you must be a Hindu or Christian or Muhammadan?

Scholar: But by using threads, attributes of Hindu religion...

Prabhupada: No, attributes... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Muhammadans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varnasrama-dharma: four varnas, four asramas. The four varnas, the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra; and four asramas-brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Combined together it is called varnasrama. So unless the... a human being follows this varnasrama principle he's not a human being; he's animal. Because animal has no varna, no asrama.

The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four division-the head division, the arms division, the belly division and the leg division-all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, they're required to function the society perfectly. That is varna. And similarly, for spiritual emancipation there must be the division: brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. So unless you accept this institution perfectly, you cannot develop your consciousness as perfect human being.

Scholar: This divisions only in Hindus.

Prabhupada: No, this division is meant for everyone.

Scholar: Muhammadans also accept this divisions?

Scholar: Yes. They're accepting. If you don't accept any scientific truth, that is your business. That is your business. If you say-two plus two equal to four-"No, I don't accept," that is your business. But two plus two equal to four, that is a fact everywhere. Now how these boys have accepted? Now they have got sacred thread, they have become brahmana.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: And they're acting as actually brahmana. There are many Muhammadans also. They came from Muhammadan. So it is the process of presenting the perfect educational system. Then everyone will accept. Any intelligent man will accept. It is a science.

So you have to push this scientific movement throughout the whole world. That is our program. It is not a so-called Hindu cult or a Indian cult. No. It is a science to be accepted by everyone if he at all wants to, I mean to say, purify or make his life perfect. Otherwise, he's in darkness. He does not know what he's going to accept another body. He has to accept another body. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg 2.13]. It does not say that this kind of body. Dehantaram, another body. Not it is up to you to select what kind of body I am going to accept. I am going to become a cat or dog or a demigod or a big man or a... They do not know yet.

This science is unknown to the whole world. We are trying to push on this scientific movement. This is our position. So if you want to cooperate with this scientific movement, then we are prepared. But if you have some other idea, that is different thing. But if we take it seriously as a scientific movement, then we are prepared to cooperate. And if should do. Simply formality will not help us.

Scholar: I think we think our stage has not yet come to that level, because Bhagavad-gita only, still very few who understand it.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Scholar: Even, Bhagavad-gita, still very few understand it.

Prabhupada: People are in darkness. You mean to say when you said that we have not come to that stage, that means that you want to remain in darkness? Does it mean? You don't want to take this light. You have not come to this stage. Does it mean you want to remain in darkness?

Scholar: Well, not really. But step by step we have to enlighten ourselves.

Prabhupada: But step by step... You have to know it. Step by step is there. First of all you have to fix up that we have..., this is the goal. Then we get step by step. But if you don't accept the principle, then you remain in darkness.

Scholar: I think the principle is the same, but by the way to perform, to go...

Prabhupada: No, no. Your principle... If you teach the principles of Bhagavad-gita, then you have to take the principles of Bhagavad-gita. If you want to read Bhagavad-gita, you remain in other atmosphere, then it will not help. It is simply waste of time. That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah janayati [SB 1.2.7]. Therefore Bhagavad-gita is also there. "I'm talking to the most confidential part of this knowledge." Sarva-guhyatamam. What is that?

[aside:] Find out. The Eighteenth Chapter. I think sixty-three verse. Where is that verse sixty-three?

Srutakirti: Iti te jnanam akhyatam, "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge"?

Prabhupada: Before that verse, what is that? Sarva-guhyatamam. [devotees look for verse] Ah, yes, yes. Sixty-three. Just open to sixty-three.

Scholar: Sixty-three.

Prabhupada: Read it. [break]

Scholar: ...probably do...

Prabhupada: "Whatever you like."

Scholar: "Whatever you like."

Prabhupada: Yes. "Whatever you like." That independence is there always. But he has... Just like we are speaking, "This is the aim of life." Now if you like, you can take, you'll not take-that depends on your independence. So that independence is all... Before that independence is there, therefore we are sometimes degrading from this human life to cats' and dogs' life.

So it is the duty of the human society to save the human being to degrade, from becoming again cats and dogs, or to elevate him higher and higher. Does it mean that we are..., we shall be satisfied with our present stage of life without knowing what we are going to accept? Is that very nice proposal? Or we shall try to elevate the human society, that is higher?

Scholar: Our aim is the same, to elevate the human being, but...

Prabhupada: But if aim is the same, then you have to accept the means.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: If you do not accept the means, simply expecting that our aim is the same will not act. You have to accept the means. That means, it is explained in the next verse, sixty-four: sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. What is that? Sixty-four?

Scholar: Sixty-four, sarva-guhyatamam bhuyah.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Then sixty-five,

This is Krsna consciousness.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: So one has to become... If one is actually eager and serious for fulfilling the aim of human life, then he has to take to this principle of Krsna consciousness:

This is Krsna consciousness. So one has to become, if one is actually eager and serious for fulfilling the aim of human life, then he has to take to this principle of Krsna consciousness,

So if you do not teach this lesson to the human society, then he will remain in the darkness. This is the purport. This is the purpose of Bhagavad-gita.

Scholar: Mam here means Krsna?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Scholar: Or Brahman.

Prabhupada: Why you bring Brahma? Then you have not understood Krsna.

Scholar: We are asking.

Prabhupada: Why you are asking? Because you do not understand what is Krsna.

Scholar: There is distinction here.

Prabhupada: You are asking because you do not understand Krsna.

Scholar: Because it's mentioned here.

Prabhupada: Oh. He says mam. He says everything mam: man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65], mam eva. Everything mam, "I." So why you should bring Brahma? Krsna says everything "I." You are asking about Krsna.

That means you do not understand Krsna. But it is clearly said mam, "Krsna." We have, therefore, given the name "Krsna consciousness," nothing else, neither Brahma consciousness, nor God consciousness. "Krsna consciousness." The whole concentration is to Krsna.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the fact.

Scholar: The explanation here is that from this sloka to the seventy-two...

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Scholar: From this sloka...

Prabhupada: Which this sloka?

Scholar: From sixty-four.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Scholar: To seventy-two.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Scholar: Krsna gains[?] or speaks as a guru, guru-sisya-samudbhava.

Prabhupada: Well, Krsna is the original guru, guru for everyone.

Scholar: So here is as a guru.

Prabhupada: Guru is the representative of Krsna. Therefore guru will also teach to surrender to Krsna.

Scholar: From this movement, what has been..., what is the plan, and what is the...

Prabhupada: Everyone should become a devotee of Krsna. That is the plan. That is the whole plan. That is stated: man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]. Just like this chanting of Hare Krsna, this is man-mana, always thinking of Krsna. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. This Krsna chanting means thinking of Krsna immediately, man-mana. Mad-bhaktah, there is in the temple, Radha-Krsna Deity, they are worshiping.

Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji, they are regularly, according to the rules and regulations, from morning call to up to ten, there is worshiping method. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]: "Offer your obeisances. So then you come back to Me." That is perfection. They do not know where they are going, other they are going to be cats and dogs. But here, by this process, you go back to home, back to Krsna. Therefore this should be adopted. Why should you spoil your energy to become cats and dogs? This is it.

Scholar: And for real life.

Prabhupada: That is real life. That is real life: to go back to Krsna. Otherwise you do not know where you are going. After all, you're preparing for something next. But your energy is being spoiled because do not know. But if you become krsna-yaji, always thinking of Krsna, is it very difficult? Man-mana.

To think of Krsna, to worship Krsna, you are going to the temple, you're offering some prayers. That's all right. What is the difficulty if you offer the prayer to Krsna? You have to do the same thing in a systematic way. Then mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam [Bg 9.25], then you go back to Krsna. Next life is to go back to home, back to Krsna. That is perfection of life.

Scholar: Well, I think the Bhagavad-gita also mentions that many ways lead to God.

Prabhupada: Yes. Many ways, that is all right. But the best way He suggests, "Who comes back to Me." [chuckles] Many ways, there may be. You can go to hell, that is also another way. Therefore He says in the sixty-..., seven, sarva dharman pari... "I have already suggested many ways. You give up, kick up all these ways. You simply surrender unto Me." That is the most confidential part of knowledge. So intelligent man should take it. And still if he likes many ways, let him do that. Let him go to hell. Who can check it? Yanti deva vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr... [Bg 9.25].

He has suggested. You can go to the higher planetary system, you can remain here, you can become cats, you can become dogs, you can become bhuta, ghost. You can become anything you like, but "If you become mad-yaji, if you become a devotee of Me, then you come to Me." Now it is up to..., our position to make choice whether we are going to be a ghost, or become..., going to become the associates of Krsna. It is up to us.

Scholar: What is His Divine Grace idea about Kali-yuga?

Prabhupada: Kali-yuga means degraded age.

Scholar: It's the time for that.

Prabhupada: Degradation.

Scholar: It's the time for that.

Prabhupada: Yes. It has begun for the last 5,000 years. It's going on.

Scholar: And how long it will be?

Prabhupada: And it will remain for another 427,000's of years. The whole duration is 432,000's of years, out of which we have passed only 5,000 years. That means the balance is 427,000 years. So at the end, people will forget everything about God. There are descriptions of this Kali-yuga. So if we again come back to Kali-yuga, it is not very good for us.

The symptoms have already begun. So actually, we must do something by which people may derive some benefit. Simply for formalities there is no value. And that, things are already mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita. You have to simply follow the program, then life will be perfect.

[aside:] [Hindi] Fruit. Give them this prasadam, this fruit.

Scholar: How long this movement has been started?

Prabhupada: This movement started from since 5,000 years, since Krsna appeared. We have not start..., manufactured this movement. We are just pushing on the same movement, rightly, that's all. We can say how long this movement has been started rightly.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: [aside:] Prasadam means little.

The others may come, why you give such and such? Again you have to bring, if somebody comes.

Srutakirti: We'll be going shortly.

Prabhupada: That's all right, but if somebody comes, again you have to go, bring back. People are not come here to fill up their bellies. [laughs] Little prasada, that will satisfy. Only one piece.

Scholar: This movement started all over the world now.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Scholar: How many countries, for instance?

Prabhupada: Whole world. Especially in America. America, Europe. From here been in New Zealand, Australia.

Scholar: Are they in the Arabic countries?

Prabhupada: Arabic countries also, our men from Jerusalem. Jerusalem. That is an Arabic country. We send to Pakistan also, but due to this war, the American Embassy, they asked us to go away. They are going again, Bangladesh. We have got Russia, and we are negotiating with China also. So because you are here, you have taken the importance of Bhagavad-gita, why not do it rightly and propagate nicely? That is our proposition.

Scholar: We will think about it.

Prabhupada: Yes, think over it. [indistinct to devotee] When you have to go?

Srutakirti: [indistinct] around seven. [indistinct] Around six-thirty.

Guest (2): What is your opinion of life after death?

Scholar: Life after death?

Prabhupada: Yes. No, bring Kaumaka[?]. Call him.

Devotee: He has left.

Prabhupada: Oh, he has left. All right. You come here, near.

Scholar: Life after death, he is asking.

Prabhupada: Yes, there is life after death. This is your question?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: That whether there is life after death. What is your question?

Scholar: Is there life after death. Is this body [indistinct]?

Prabhupada: What is your opinion? It is a fact. Just like you are a child, now you are a young man. So you have changed your body. Similarly, when you change this body, you get another body.

Scholar: Life after death.

Prabhupada: That is life after death.

Scholar: Is there any world or any...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Scholar: Any description of the worlds...

Prabhupada: World is vast. So according to your karma... Just like you have got a particular type of body. You are young man; there is another young man also. Still, his body and your body is not exactly the same. His bodily feature, your bodily feature, his intelligence, your intelligence, they are all different. But a child grows to become young man, that's a fact. You are a child; another child was there. So they have got now different body.

Just like you have got a different body from your childhood life. Is it not? But you know that you had a childhood body, although the body is not there. This is transmigration from one body to another. Just like a dream at night: You change this body; you accept another body. And although you're lying down on your bed, you've gone to some other place. Subtle body. Take for... This is a fact that we change our body so many ways, but I, the soul, I remain.

So therefore, when this body will not exist I'll exist in another body. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, that na jayate na mriyate va, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20]. We can experience this, and it is confirmed in the sastra, that after destruction of this body we are not destroyed. I, as living entity, I remain; I accept another body.

Scholar: Maybe the question is that whether the life after death is the same like our life here...

Prabhupada: But, but, that is not [indistinct]. If you get another body, naturally the same way of life. Same way of life means this life... This material body means four functions: eating, sleeping, sex intercourse and defense. So as soon as you get another body, it's the same business [indistinct]. It may be dog's life, it may be cat's life, or it may be human life. But the business is the same: eating, sleeping, sex intercourse and defense.

Scholar: And the idea of nirvana, and soul...

Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is another. Then you have to prepare. That is not for the cats and dogs. That is meant for really human beings, yes, those who are actually executing life as human beings. That is not for the cats and dogs.

[pause] [indistinct comments by guest to other]

All right. Thank you.

Scholar: Thank you for this time.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now my request is that you have got some... You are so many, you're interested in Bhagava... Do it right, that's all.

Scholar: Yes. [indistinct comments with others]

Prabhupada: What he's asking?

Scholar: About what we are planning.

Prabhupada: Planning, but you're not prepared for the planning. Otherwise I could have given you the plan. But you are not prepared.

Scholar: We are thinking about that.

Prabhupada: You say you think of. Then you think of, what can I do?

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupada: I was prepared to give you the plan. Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg 18.63].

Scholar: I hope next time when this..., you'll come here when the..., we think we are prepared already. We hope so.

[pause]

Indian lady (1): [Hindi]

Prabhupada: [Hindi conversation] Prasada? We have prasada? [Hindi]

Guest: [indistinct] ...spiritual statements... [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You chant Hare Krsna. Everything will be all right. Chant Hare Krsna.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Everything will be all right.

Guest: Is there nothing more [indistinct] than all this?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the duty of everyone.

Guest: It's very easy.

Prabhupada: Very easy. And read these books.

Guest: Yes, I will buy these books. Thank you. [end]