Morning Walk – September 23, 1972, Los Angeles

720923MW-Los Angeles [33:22 Minutes]

This Maha-Visnu is only a portion. Is a plenary expansion of Krsna

Karandhara: Like night is only night in relationship with today. Big is only big in relationship to small.

Prabhupada: So they accept that there is small and there is big?

Karandhara: Relatively.

Prabhupada: Yes, relatively.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes it is delivered by time and space. Recalled five seconds or ten seconds it's relative so nothing is absolute.

Prabhupada: Why do they not understand relativity of brain?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. They're also trying to understand that. That they haven't proposed that.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarūpa Damodara: They haven't proposed, so far.

Karandhara: The formula is, what is it? Energy=.

Svarūpa Damodara: E=mc2 ?

Karandhara: Five time's the.

Svarūpa Damodara: Mass times the square of the velocity of light.

Karandhara: indistinct].

Svarūpa Damodara: Of the velocity of light.

Prabhupada: In psychology there is study brain substance. Brain substance of all men are not equal. Is it known to the scientist? Brain substance?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. I think it is known because when Einstein died they tried to preserve the brain of Einstein. Thinking that his brain was different from others.

Prabhupada: If it was not different then how he became distinguished?

Svarūpa Damodara: The brain substance is different just like everybody intelligence different.

Prabhupada: Yes. According to the brain substance there is difference of intelligence.

Karandhara: They attribute a lot more factors too like environment, the government.

Prabhupada: Anyway, so relative brain, relative life [indistinct] just like the duration of life of Brahma is different from the duration of life of Hitler. So relatively there are so many different species of life living entities, do the scientists agree or not?

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Eh? Then why they are [distinct] the perfect brain which is God's.

Karandhara: Well the atheists they say.

Svarūpa Damodara: It is not a question of atheists

Prabhupada: Eh? It is a question of science.

Karandhara: They say that the scientific conclusions that relativity extends for infinity.

Prabhupada: Yes, that infinity that infinite brain is God's.

Karandhara: Well they say there is no need for one infinite.

Prabhupada: No there is need because you are operator in the laboratory, hydrogen, oxygen you can make one glass of water. Why not the biggest brain can make the Pacific Ocean? How can you deny it? If you accept the law of relativity then as, just like an ant it can go hole small in the room but you can make a tunnel, similarly one can make the biggest tunnel.

Karandhara: Well they say that you are just material energy and water. Everyone is material energy.

Prabhupada: Everyone is material energy but it is working relatively according to the relative brain in body. So ultimately the infinite brain must be there.

Svarūpa Damodara: That empowered brain is absolute.

Prabhupada: Yes. He is not dependent on anyone.

Karandhara: They see, they see because the small relativity just like we are relative our capacity just like everything is relative.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: God also has to be relative.

Prabhupada: Yes God is relative, you're small He's big.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That's all. What is the use of. You're teeny and he's infinite.

Karandhara: Well on that basis also we can say that we are God over the ants.

Prabhupada: Yes, that we have explained every time but we are not supreme but in comparison to the ants, I am God.

Svarūpa Damodara: Relatively.

Prabhupada: Similarly the ant is also God in comparison with the microbe.

Karandhara: Well they say that as relativity extends there is no supreme supreme.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: Just relative supreme.

Prabhupada: Relative supreme indeed. Just like you are supreme, you're God to the ants similarly he is supreme to [indistinct].

Karandhara: Well that. On that point they won't agree.

Prabhupada: Why they shall not agree? Eh? Why they shall not agree?

Svarūpa Damodara: Because they are after complete information.

Prabhupada: Then there is no question of information it is a question of knowledge and philosophy. As I see relative, this is small, this big, this is bigger than this, this is bigger than this, this is bigger than this bigger than this. When you find the no more bigger then that is God.

Karandhara: They say that relative scale of small and bigger that goes on forever it never stops.

Prabhupada: Yes that's all right, that's all right but you have to accept somebody bigger than you.

Svarūpa Damodara: So in the, in the, in the material time scale there is no. Absolute.

Prabhupada: That is explained in the Vedas, nityo nityanam. God means that He is also eternal, we are also eternal everything eternal. As they say everything is existing but the operation is different. Operation is relative. God means His operational activities must go higher in importance than yours.

I have a small body like this if you are asked to pick up something from the midst of the ocean you cannot do it. But if one can assume very big body so that in the midst of the ocean the water is like this, up to this. How can you deny it?

Karandhara: Well they won't deny that. They simply deny the existence of an absolute supreme.

[Loud engine noise in the background]

Prabhupada: There is no question of absolute you have to accept bigger than you. Just like this small bird, it is walking in the water on the beach. The water may be up to his. And somebody may come in the midst of the water and the water goes away after the animal. How can you deny it?

Svarūpa Damodara: It is making a lot of noise.

Karandhara: No they wouldn't deny that.

Prabhupada: And therefore if you accept that then it is all right. That is God. He is greater than you that's all. Same example combine hydrogen and oxygen, hydrogen and oxygen is there you mix you can make a glass of water in the laboratory. The hydrogen and oxygen is there but you cannot mix big quantities of hydrogen and oxygen and make a sea. But one who can do that he is bigger than you.

Karandhara: But because that relativity extends on.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: Then that discounts the importance of any one person.

Prabhupada: Yes important, you cannot make the sea. You can make a glass of water, therefore one who has made the sea he is much more important than yourself. How can you deny it?

Karandhara: They say that then there is someone more important than the one who has made the sea.

Prabhupada: Eh? That's all right but as long as you accept that there is somebody bigger than you who can make the sea. There may be somebody bigger than you that's, that's all right but you have said that you smoke [indistinct].

That we have explained in the Brahma-samhita that the Maha-Visnu from his breathing millions of universes are coming and again they are; yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad. visnur mahan sa iha . kala-viseso [Bs 5.48]. This Maha-Visnu is only a portion. Is a plenary expansion of Krsna.

Svarūpa Damodara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Maha-Visnu is also nothing, that we have said. Relatively, more more more more.

Karandhara: You see their point is. Of arguing would be that they don't accept that there is a transcendental energy that exists.

Prabhupada: Never mind but you have to accept that you are not even insignificant ant before Him. That you accept then our proposition is finished.

Karandhara: Well then.

Prabhupada: You are, you are nothing but an insignificant ant in comparison to His power.

Karandhara: But they think just like the ant may have [indistinct] power but the ant is not increasing his power but human beings are increasing their power.

Prabhupada: You see, for the time being you are nothing but an insignificant creature. When you agree, just like everyone is trying to become a very big businessman but not that before becoming a Rockefeller he can claim that I am a Rockefeller. That is nonsense. You become Rockefeller then you become.

Karandhara: Just the, just the possibility of becoming one intoxicates them.

Prabhupada: Yes the possibility is not a fact everyone has got the possibility of becoming Rockefeller but that does not mean that everyone is Rockefeller. That is another thing.

Karandhara: But the possibility puffs them up, intoxicates them.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: The possibility intoxicates them.

Prabhupada: Then you can think that all the banks belong to me, that is another intoxication. If you want to be happy then all the banks of Los Angeles they belong to me. I am the proprietor, if that intoxication gives you some relief [laughs] enjoy that. But actually you are a mad man, if you think like that.

Karandhara: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: Some human beings have done that.

Prabhupada: But you're not, first of all you accept. Some may have done some maybe later but you're not, first of all you accept that. You have not done that.

Svarūpa Damodara: The, the, the problem of relativity is all right. Say for example I can make five balls and one ball is smaller than others. So like that I can make five different kinds of balls but these are related with other but I'm, I'm making these balls, you know. So there has to be a, a, a person who can make these relative things.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Otherwise there is no question of relativity if there is someone who is operating this relative things.

Karandhara: Well they will say the relative energy creates relative manifestations. The energy which is making the balls is still relative.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes but there has to be a, a person who is engaged in making these relative things otherwise there would be no relativity.

Karandhara: That is still a relative energy.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be somebody is operating the relative law. We explained many times that everyone is God that's all right but relative God.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Karandhara: In modern, in modern physics one school of thought is everything that happens even a manifestation of personality, intelligence, everything is simply a different combination of material energy.

Prabhupada: That's all right that is relative.

Karandhara: So there is no, no necessary question of who is the person, if it is simply atoms.

Prabhupada: Because you are person therefore everything must be person. You are studying as a person you're not a dead person. Activities.

Karandhara: They say that person, that personality is also just atoms in different orbits.

Prabhupada: That's all right we agree, we agree we therefore we say see God, karunaḥ, a person.

Svarūpa Damodara: We are like atomic particles, of God.

Prabhupada: We accept that. Everything person [indistinct]

Karandhara: If everything is atoms and atoms are not persons.

Prabhupada: Why not persons? We say that within the atom there is.

Svarūpa Damodara: Soul. God.

Karandhara: Well that they cannot see.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: That they cannot see.

Prabhupada: But they cannot see so many things, rascals. What seeing power they have got? [laughs] They cannot see what is there within the ocean. That does not mean there is no living entity. Your seeing power is defective…. A small microbe [indistinct] microbe small [indistinct] within that microbe body there is all physiological machine, you cannot see.

Karandhara: [indistinct] practical.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: A crazy man comes up and and says [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Practical means you have to accept that you are small insignificant and there is very very big. That is the answer. How you can deny it? As you can create a glass of water by mixing hydrogen and oxygen. So another person who can create the sea by mixing hydrogen and oxygen. He is greater than you, you have to accept.

Karandhara: No they just say it is all the same thing anyway.

Prabhupada: That's all right but you cannot operate it. Energy is there the material is there. The solution is that if we accept the law of relativity we have to accept God. That is the.

Svarūpa Damodara: There's, there's there's no question about it… In other words God is infinite and we are finite particles of… small living fragments.

Prabhupada: Yes. [indistinct] smaller than the smallest bigger than the biggest. Parasya saktir vividhaiva srūyate svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca. [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8] You are creating one glass of water by mixing hydrogen and oxygen God is creating millions of trillions of Pacific Ocean's simultaneously.

Just like the seasonal changes, as soon as the season changes millions of trees immediately grows leaves, immediately. When there is seasonal change of seasons immediately millions of trees without leaves. This is God's plan.

Karandhara: Well they don't.

Prabhupada: And energy is working in the same way. You can also create one leaf, it will take at least three days, artificially one who is. but that is also not perfect. But God is creating millions of trees and millions and trillions of leaves within a second. That you can see.

Karandhara: But they won't credit that to a person.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: They wont give any credit.

Prabhupada: But that is their foolishness.

Svarūpa Damodara: [laughs]

Prabhupada: But therefore they are rascals. Eh? You kick him with shoes, "[indistinct]? No I'm all right."

Karandhara: They'd say, just like you build a big fire that makes the heat 100° and a small fire produces 5°, it is still fire.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Karandhara: It's all the same [indistinct].

Prabhupada: You are also living entity, He is also living entity. That we can know. You're also fire He is also fire but you are spark He's big fire. That is the difference. A spark is also fire.

Karandhara: Ah.

Prabhupada: Who denies it?

Karandhara: They say it is all one.

Prabhupada: All one, then why there is not in consciousness? That is our philosophy.

Karandhara: They say it is the whole material energy as being.

Prabhupada: That's all right but...

Karandhara: They don't accept anything beyond that.

Prabhupada: …the presence of quantity is there that is relativity. That I am trying to convince. You can make a glass of water that quantity and if I can make a Pacific Ocean that quantity is not the one. The water is one that's all and the process of manufacturing is also one but the quantity is different.

Karandhara: Because the Vedas… energy saying then there is no need for God.

Prabhupada: No, there is need of God, you cannot make the Pacific Ocean, your God is needed.

Svarūpa Damodara: We simply say that God's power is inconceivable.

Prabhupada: Yes it's inconceivable to you but it's not inconceivable to Him.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: He knows His business.

Svarūpa Damodara: Because our brain is so teeny.

Prabhupada: Ah.

Svarūpa Damodara: Compared with His.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: So He cannot conceive His power.

Prabhupada: That is inconceivable. [break] It is described the distance of the Sun, let them create a small Sun, so that at night there is no need of.

Svarūpa Damodara: Electricity?

Prabhupada: Electricity light.

Karandhara: Actually, the thing that has created the sun has created us.

Prabhupada: That is one after another. This creation of something, by that energy another thing is created, another thing is... That is going on. That is the law of creation: one after another.

Karandhara: They won't…, they don't see anyone behind that.

Prabhupada: What power of seeing? That is their foolishness. What they can see? How far they can see? The so-called seeing is useless. The scientist, what he can see?

Devotee: Dr. Frog's philosophy.

Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Frog's.

Svarūpa Damodara: We see that so-called..., the scholars and scientists are nothing but an imitation, just like… [break] …for example, discoveries like airplane, they discovered because they imitated the flying of birds.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Svarūpa Damodara: They saw how the birds are flying, so they imitated: two wings and then like shape of a bird. This is not their creation; this is imitation from nature's…, work of nature. Same thing, all discoveries are just imitations.

Prabhupada: Still they cannot imitate. Just like a small bird also flying here.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So what machinery is there? If they can invent that machinery, then this [indistinct] question is over. But he cannot see that. This bird is also flying and aeroplane is also flying, but you are flying the aeroplane on the strength of petroleum, and in the bird there is no petroleum. The bird is creating his own energy from within. Machine is so made that he is flying without petroleum. Why don't you do that? You see?

Svarūpa Damodara: Because the living force… In the bird there is a living force.

Karandhara: They think they can.

Prabhupada: They have not done it. Again the same thing.

Karandhara: "In the future."

Prabhupada: "In future." [laughs] That is nonsense. When you do it, then you claim.

Svarūpa Damodara: So, for example, a computer, a computer is just like human brain. And it's different to a degree, but it works like a human brain. But of course it does not operate inde…

Prabhupada: No. The human brain is there; he is pushing the button. Without human brain it cannot work. The human brain is there. It is not human brain. The machine itself is not human brain. The human brain outside the machine works it.

Karandhara: They are convinced that they can make a human brain.

Prabhupada: That's all right. You again take future. This foolishness is going on, but we don't accept such foolishness, "in future." Everyone can say, "In future I shall become..."

Svarūpa Damodara: That's why in one branch of science so-called trying to solve "in future," so for example they are already trying to tell what is going to happen in two thousand years. So they say in two thousand years, for example, what type of [indistinct] is going to happen today, so let us...

Prabhupada: But he cannot say what is going to happen to him two thousand years.

Svarūpa Damodara: He cannot say even, I mean, tomorrow what's going to happen.

Karandhara: He must be existing, as much as he is existing now, because the energy will all be...

Prabhupada: The energy is already existing. We don't require to think of what will happen. The energy is existing; why you bother yourself? Let the energy do this work. And actually it is being done. Just like that Mr. Johnson, he was president; he was always busy, "What will happen? What will happen?"

Now [indistinct] is over, and still the government is going on without him. The government is going on without him, but when he was in the government he was thinking, "Oh, how to do this?"

Karandhara: You might say the government is going on because he was conscientious like that when he was the president.

Prabhupada: Yes, but without him the government can go on. Why does he not think like that?

Karandhara: [indistinct] think like that.

Prabhupada: Hah?

Karandhara: Just like if I thought…, if I think I don't have to do anything because everything will go on anyway...

Prabhupada: No. If you accept that energies are already there, then why should you bother? The energy will act automatically.

Karandhara: But I am also that energy, so I am acting because...

Prabhupada: But when you are not acting, the energy is still going on. So your acting or no acting, it doesn't matter.

Karandhara: What if I say that, "It doesn't matter whether I chant Hare Krsna or not, because the energy is the same"?

Prabhupada: Yes. They are same. But we do not belong to that; we belong to-what is called-discriminating human being. We want to create something for advancement of the living entities. We want advancement. Advancement means I have to do that. Therefore if I want to go, advance, I have to work. Your working will not do. My working is there-if I want to advance.

Karandhara: [indistinct]

Svarūpa Damodara: So planning, planning for something is necessary. Without planning, thinking that there are energies everywhere...

Prabhupada: Planning...

Svarūpa Damodara: We cannot just...

Prabhupada: Planning is necessary. But that planning should be within the big planning. You cannot plan anything independently.

Svarūpa Damodara: Hmm.

Karandhara: In relation.

Prabhupada: Yes. [pause] So prove existence of God by this law of relativity.

Svarūpa Damodara: Actually, everything is working under the laws of nature. Nothing remains stopped. Everything works.

Prabhupada: Nimitta-matram bhava savya-sacin [Bg 11.33], that is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gita. When Arjuna was declining to fight, Krsna ultimately says that "Don't think that all these men who have gathered here, they'll go home. It is already planned they have to die. You fight or not fight, they'll die. That plan is already made." [indistinct Sanskrit] We have to endeavor for Krsna consciousness, and nothing else. Everything is there.

Svarūpa Damodara: Hmm.

Prabhupada: That is required. Because we are living entity, we have got a little independence. By misuse of independence we have become out of Krsna's appreciation. So we have to try for that, to again go back to the association. Nothing else. Other things will go on. We don't require to become a scientist or physist or this or… We don't require. We simply require to chant Hare Krsna. That's all. That is your only business.

[break] ...scientists. [laughing] Scientists, they are trying to create this [indistinct]. I think them[?] going on. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66].

You simply surrender-that is your business. No other business.

[end]