Morning Walk – January 23, 1976, Māyāpur

We are debtor to you. Please take it

Tamala Krsna: ...last month?

Prabhupada: No, they gave it, account up to December 12, week ending on December 12.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, there was a six-day period when they sold 650,000 pieces of literature, six days.

Sastriji: My God!

Jayapataka: [Transl. That's a huge amount of rupees!]

Prabhupada: Recently we have published abridged edition of Bhagavad-gita, 350,000... Three hundred and fifty hundred thousand.

Gopala Krsna: Three and a half lakhs.

Prabhupada: Three and a half lakhs.

Tamala Krsna: Already, though, over half of it is sold out. In one month we've sold over half the printing.

Subhaga: Even among Indians it is so popular, Prabhupada. I have seen.

Prabhupada: Which one?

Subhaga: Your Bhagavad-gita. All the Indians, in meeting they all come. Two or three times I have met. Some of them say, "You have got more? You have got more Bhagavad-gita?"

Prabhupada: [Transl. I named it "As It Is." That makes people inquisitive.] No commentary.

Subhaga: [Transl. So much demand.]

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] Cent per cent cheater, beginning from the top. They have lost their own culture, Vedic civilization, and they are not competent to earn properly. They must be cheater. Beg, borrow, steal. They have lost their own culture; therefore they have no one honest. Formerly Indians were so honest that after one man's death, his son comes-even we have seen it in childhood-"Sir, my father took from you the five thousand rupees. So now he is dead, so I have come to pay you." So he says, "I never seen my account that your father has taken five thousand rupees from me. I cannot take it." This is India. One man is offering him five thousand, that "We are debtor to you. Please take it." And he says, "No, I don't find in my account that your father took five thousand. I cannot take it." And now they are cheating. This is India's position. Even in our childhood I have see that Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent some lakhs of rupees. So when he became a big barrister he called every one of them, that "My father died insolvent. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India. And now they have become cheaters. This is svaraj, independence. Even in British times there was C. R. Das who liquidated the debts of his insolvent father. "My father died insolvent. He could not pay, so he declared insolvency in the court. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India.

Tamala Krsna: That is the need of a son.

Prabhupada: Huh? Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Duty of a son.

Prabhupada: Therefore rna-karta pita satruḥ [Canakya Panḍita]. A father dies insolvent, debtor, he is enemy, because the son has to pay according to Manu-samhita law. Because he inherits father's money, why he shall not pay if the father is debtor?

Jayapataka: He also inherits the debt.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is India's law. You cannot simply inherit father's property and no debt. You inherit father's debt also. So a father dies debted, indebtor-he is supposed to be enemy, because the son has to pay. Rna-karta pita satrur mata satrur vyabhicarini. And mother, if she marries for the second time in spite of presence of children, she is enemy. And in Western countries it is very common affair.

Tamala Krsna: Divorce and remarry.

Prabhupada: All enemies. Mother enemy, father enemy. And then? Rna-karta pita satrur mata satrur vyabhicarini, rūpavati bharya satruḥ. And if the wife is very beautiful, she is also enemy. And putraḥ satrur apanḍitaḥ. And the son, if he's a rascal, he is enemy. That's all. This is family enemies. In the family nobody expects enemy, but Canakya Panḍita says that these are enemies in the family: rna-karta pita satrur mata satrur vyabhicarini, rūpavati bharya satruḥ. Now everyone is hankering after very beautiful wife, and Canakya Panḍita said, "Then you are bringing one enemy." Just see what is the type of civilization. Because if you become too much attached to wife, then you'll never be able to go out of home and take sannyasa.

Tamala Krsna: Andha-kūpam.

Prabhupada: Andha-kūpam. You shall have to die. Grham andha-kūpam. Hitvatma-patam grham andha-kūpam vanam gato... [SB 7.5.5]. You'll never be able to leave the home if wife is very attractive. Of course, everyone's wife is very attractive. [laughs]

Tamala Krsna: Even if ugly.

Prabhupada: Yes. That... One, our Sanskrit professor used to... "My dear boys, even there is beauty amongst the Negroes." He used to say. And it is my... It is one's eye that she is very beautiful. It does not recommend others' recommendation. Yara sahge yara maje mana, kiba haḍi kiba doma. [love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind-Bengali proverb]. It doesn't matter whether she low caste or high caste; if she is attractive, then it is all right. Therefore rūpavati bharya satruḥ. Canakya Panḍita's instruction are very, very nice. You know my story? My father's instruction? Yes.

Harikesa: What was that?

Prabhupada: [chuckles] My wife was never beautiful to my sight, so I wanted to marry again, and my father advised, "Don't do it. She is your friend, that you don't like her." [laughs] Just see.

Tamala Krsna: But still, Prabhupada, you said that your school work was a little impeded...

Prabhupada: Huh? No, that is natural. In young time, when there is young girl... That is also said, yauvane kukkari sundari. When woman is in full youth, even she is like dog, she is beautiful. [laughs] Yauvane kukkari sundari.

Tamala Krsna: Who said that? Whose statement was that?

Prabhupada: No, that was also... I do not know, but this is going on. [laughs] [laughter] Yauvane kukkari sundari. It is by nature's arrangement the woman is given one chance at the time of youthfulness. Otherwise how she will be given protection by a man? They require protection. If somebody is not attracted, then how she gets protection? This is natural.

Tamala Krsna: Nowadays, though, even if she is attractive, the men simply take advantage.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Harikesa: And they call this liberation.

Tamala Krsna: And the women want it.

Prabhupada: Want means as the social practice is there, everyone becomes victimized.

Tamala Krsna: So it's not their fault.

Prabhupada: The social system in India, that a boy, say, twenty, twenty-five years, and a girl, twelve to sixteen years, must be married. Must be married. And before marriage the girl should not see any boy, and the boy should not see any woman. Then the life is all right. Even in U.P. still, the system is that before marriage the boy should not see, the marriage takes place. Nowadays it has been practiced that boy goes to see the girl, but formerly it was not. She should not see. She should see the girl when the marriage actually takes place, not before that. The psychology is that when they require a man or a girl, so whatever she is or he is, they accept and they remain chaste, so there is no separation. This is the psychology. Whenever you are hungry, whatever nonsense foodstuff is offered to you, it is palatable. Is it not? Because, after all, it is the appetite which eats, not the foodstuff. Foodstuff may be very, very nicely prepared, but if you have no appetite, it is finished. [chuckles] You know the history of Ramakrishna? Did I say? Yes. So he had no appetite, and he very tactfully said, "Oh, you are not my wife, you are my mother." And he became Bhagavan.

Tamala Krsna: So if he had no appetite, it means he was transcendentally situated?

Prabhupada: No, no. Not transcendentally. In his young time he used so many women that after marriage he was impotent. So he could not use, and he made a tact that "I see all women as my mother, even my wife." And that made him famous, this jugglery. Uḍo khai govindaya namaḥ. [To make a virtue of necessity. Bengali proverb.] Flying..., what is called? Puffed rice flying: "All right, govindaya namaḥ. I offer to Govinda." Uḍo khai govindaya. Where is in the history that a saintly person has called his wife "mother"? The saintly person give some home, that's all. And where is the..., such instance-a saintly man calls his wife as "mother"? He is the only man. "Ma."

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, there's another thing I noticed, that in the pictures very often of Ramakrishna and his mother, his wife, whichever one she is, they show...

Prabhupada: No, they show that "This is husband and wife. Ramakrishna was so advanced that even his wife, he left her, considering, 'She is my mother.' By worshiping mother Kali he has become so perfect that sees all women as mother." He does not require to become Bhagavan. Canakya Panḍita says that matrvat para-daresu. Para-daresu, not your own wife. Huh? Others' wife should be treated as mother. That is our Indian system. But he wanted to overcome that, that "I call even my wife mother."

Tamala Krsna: That "I am better than..."

Prabhupada: Ah, better than all others.

Tamala Krsna: The question I've had is that in the pictures they always show her head. She is bareheaded. She doesn't cover her head. And I noticed the thing that when we're sometimes passing in a car in Bengal I notice that the women, very often, they don't... It's more in this state than anywhere else, they don't cover their head. Is that due to her influence?

Prabhupada: No, no. The system is when the woman is at the care of father she does not cover. But when she is under the care of husband she must cover. By dress you can understand what she is, whether she is widow, whether she has got husband, whether she is prostitute. Everything by dress you'll understand. Nowadays the fashion is the woman has the bahka sihthe: [hair-parted on the side, not in the middle], not here.

Tamala Krsna: Prostitute.

Prabhupada: But that was meant for prostitute. If the woman has sihthe here, then you should understand. Then you can freely talk with her. She is advertising, "Yes, I am prostitute. You can talk with me." Without that signboard, no man is gentleman if he wants to talk with another woman. He can talk only with that woman. Neither you can talk with widow. That girl, our Sivasakti's mother? She is dressing herself as widow. That is very nice. Very nice. That simple dress will not attract men.

Bhavananda: In America, Srila Prabhupada, sometimes when I preached in the schools I used that example, that how by looking at a woman's part of her hair you can tell what she is. And so many of the girls in the class, they had their hair parted on the side. So I when said a woman who has her hair parted on the side is a prostitute, oh, they all laughed.

Prabhupada: "And what is the wrong to become prostitute?" They accept it, "All right, we are prostitute."

Bhavananda: Right. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Now there is no distinction between prostitute and chaste.

Jayapataka: That was published in the Bombay Illustrated Weekly, that the prostitutes are having difficulty because women are so freely available that no one is coming to pay for them.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is the position.

Tamala Krsna: Unemployment.

Prabhupada: Because everyone is prostitute. Gaddalika-pravaha: [blind following]. You know gaddalika-pravaha? This nyaya, logic? Gaddalika-pravaha. One brahmana was taking bath daily in the Ganges. So as a brahmana's regulative principle, they take kosa-kusi [copper vessels used in worship] to offer oblation to the forefathers, sraddha. So one day he found there are so many kosa-kusis, so he could not understand which is his own. So next day, just to find out his own, he put one, I mean, earth ball in his own kosa. Kosa you understand?

Jayapataka: Some plate.

Prabhupada: One plate, yes. It is placed like this. So when he came from..., after bathing, he saw that so many kosas are..., everything is containing that ball, gaddalika. Then again he was puzzled that he put a ball in his own kosa so that he can find out, but when he came back from bathing he saw that all the kosas... Then he asked all other brahmanas, "How is that, that there are so many balls in everyone's kosa? I put it to recognize my own." So they said, "I thought that it is a fashion now. It is an occasion to put a ball in..." Gaddalika-pravaha. The same difficulty. At Bombay there was some news like this, that prostitutes are not doing well in their profession? Who told me that?

Harikesa: He said it was in the Illustrated Weekly.

Prabhupada: Oh. When it was?

Jayapataka: About one year ago. There was a big article on prostitution.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, we understand that in the Satya-yuga one hundred percent of the population was God conscious. But then again, we see many times it is stated that, for example, there were always prostitutes or there was always this or...

Prabhupada: No, there were no prostitute in Satya-yuga.

Tamala Krsna: No meat-eaters.

Prabhupada: No meat-eaters.

Tamala Krsna: None whatsoever.

Prabhupada: All paramahamsas. In the Satya-yuga they are all paramahamsa.

Tamala Krsna: Every single person.

Prabhupada: Every person was perfectly, spiritually...

Harikesa: On the earth.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then in Treta-yuga, one-fourth diminished. And then Dvapara-yuga, half diminished. And in Kali-yuga, three-fourth diminished. Seventy-five percent are all rogues, and twenty-five percent... That is expected, but that is now diminishing. They are all rogues with the advancement of Kali-yuga. Mandaḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutaḥ .

Therefore there is no other method to save them. Harer namaiva kevalam . This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's gift. Incorrigible. Everyone will be incorrigible. Only hope is Hare Krsna. The whole Vedic system is to make human being correct. Being incorrect, they are suffering in this material world repetition of birth, death-sometimes man, sometimes dog. So to correct him so that he comes to his original position, Krsna conscious, and go back to home. This is the whole Vedic civilization, to correct him. Therefore it is called samskara. Samskara means correction. Samskarad bhaved dvijaḥ. Veda-pathad bhaved vipro brahma janatiti brahmanaḥ. To correct him and bring him to the brahminical stage. From pig stage to brahminical stage. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone is like pig in this material world. Therefore Rsabhadeva says, "Now don't live like pig." Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate viḍ-bhujam ye [SB 5.5.1]:

"Now you, My children... " He was advising, instructing His son that "Now this life is not to live like pig." This is the first instruction, because everyone is more or less pig, living like pig. Pig means he has no discrimination of eating and he has no discrimination of sex. That is pig. And everyone is like that. No discrimination of eating, especially in the Western... And no discrimination of sex. Pigs. Big pig or small pig, that's all. So Rsabhadeva says, "Now, My dear sons, don't spoil your life living like pigs." Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke. Nrloke means "In the human society you should not live like pig and very hard labor." So the whole civilization at the present moment they want to live like pig, and to live like pig they are working like an ass. And that is civilization, working like ass to become a pig. You tell them!

Harikesa: They will get very angry.

Prabhupada: Angry... With shoes. We beat them with shoes, that "You have created a civilization to work like ass, and ideal is to become a pig. What is this civilization? Sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ puru... [SB 2.3.19]. And for their votes you become a president. What you are better than a pig? A pig votes for another pig, big pig. That's all. How people will be happy?"

Harikesa: You told them that in South Africa.

Prabhupada: Yes. Did I say?

Harikesa: Yes.

Prabhupada: But they clapped.

Harikesa: Yes. [laughter]

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. They appreciated. Although they do not take Indians very seriously...

Harikesa: "Third-class citizens."

Prabhupada: Third class. But they attended my lecture, they purchased my books, and they clapped.

Tamala Krsna: Oh. South Africa is a...

Prabhupada: Yes, South Africa. That I... Very much I was astonished that how these...

Tamala Krsna: Many of them?

Prabhupada: Oh, many of them.

Tamala Krsna: Oh. I thought only Indians attended.

Harikesa: Oh, no.

Prabhupada: No, no. White men. Yes. And in Melbourne the priests also appreciated. So any sane man will appreciate our, this Krsna consciousness. These are very strong words, that "You have created a civilization of pig, and for making perfect that civilization you are working like ass." So what is the advancement? A ass is trying to become a pig. What is that civilization? So ideal is to become a pig, and for that, fulfillment of that idea, they are working like ass. Is it not? Just see. Think over.

Tamala Krsna: If we speak like that in the classrooms, whew!

Bhavananda: They like it.

Tamala Krsna: Very strong.

Prabhupada: This is the fact. Therefore Bhagavata says, sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ. They are very much proud: "I have got ninety-nine per cent votes, and I have become President." But what you are? You are another big pig only. Who has voted you? The voters are pigs and asses and camel and dogs. So if these animal vote for somebody, then what he is? Is there... Are... Their votes are calculable at all? Votes by the dogs, pigs, camels, and..., sva-viḍ-varaha. Sva-viḍ-varahostra-khara, and asses. So what is the value of these votes? And that is going on, democracy.

Tamala Krsna: How can they vote for human beings?

Prabhupada: There is no human being. A big... I gave that a big animal, lion, is fearful to the small animal. But because he is lion, very strong, does it mean that he's a human being? That is going on. Sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. If one is not Krsna conscious, he's nothing but animal. So if other small animals praise him, "Oh, you are..." This Gandhi or Indira Gandhi or..., and the Hitler and... What is the value? He's a big animal, that's all.

Harikesa: You were saying in Vrndavana they tweak each other's ear.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: Churchill was tweaking the ear of Hitler, and Hitler was tweaking... Like in school the two children?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Jayapataka: Yesterday you mentioned to the Secretary that the members of legislature should all be Vaisnavas. They should all be brahminically qual...

Prabhupada: Brahmana-vaisnava.

Jayapataka: Brahmana-vaisnava. Then they could give true advice.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is this nonsense asses and pigs and dogs and cats? What they will do?

Jayapataka: So that one goal we could have is that they would pass a law that no one could be a member of a legislature who didn't follow the four regulative principles.

Prabhupada: Who will do that? That can be possible if you spread Krsna consciousness movement very widely and they become convinced that "We shall not vote anyone to these rascals. We must have a Vaisnava." Then everything will be changed. That is the only opportunity, that if people become Vaisnava and they decide that "We are not going to vote anyone who is not a Vaisnava," then everything will be all right.

Tamala Krsna: Sometimes the devotees question that the Kali-yuga is advancing, and in that sense the standards are deteriorating. Yet you are preaching that "Get everyone to the position where everyone is Krsna conscious." How in the Kali-yuga advancing can everyone become Krsna conscious?

Prabhupada: They do not understand. If I say, "The epidemic is increasing. You take this injection, then you can be saved. If you don't take vaccination, then you'll suffer," this is our propaganda. "You take this vaccination; you'll be saved. The epidemic is very strong." But if you think, "Now, because there is epidemic there is no other way. What is the use of taking vaccination?" this is no argument. The epidemic is there; the vaccination is there. [aside:] This is tulasi? Tell them. The disease is there; the medicine is there. So intelligent man should take the medicine, precaution, and then he'll be saved. Two things are there. Kalau nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha. In Kali-yuga, if you don't take this, then there is no means of your save, safety. The two things are there. Why you are taking one thing? You take this thing or... [break] Everywhere two things are there: do's and don't's. So in order to make the process of do's you have to accept the process of don't's. That Nectar of Instruction, Rūpa Gosvami? He's instructing both the do's and the don't's. Huh? You have read it?

Harikesa: Atyaharaḥ prayasas ca... .

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: Atyaharaḥ prayasas ca.

Prabhupada: Ah. That is don't's.

Harikesa: Utsahan niscayat...

Prabhupada: This is do's. That is instruction. Why should you take one side? Take both sides.

Tamala Krsna: One thing is that in those two verses, one is don't and one is do, but the...

Prabhupada: You have to take.

Tamala Krsna: There is still a statement in the do's which is a don't, where it says, "Don't associate with nondevotees." Utsahan niscayad dhairyat tat-tat-karma-pravartanat... .

Prabhupada: Sato vrtteḥ sahga-tyagat.

Tamala Krsna: Sahga-tyagat sato vrtteḥ. So that's a don't.

Prabhupada: No, no. There is don't's and do's also. Sato vrtteḥ. This is do's. Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Because it's translated as "Don't associate with the nondevotees."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. All the slokas, they are... In some sloka the do's are prominent, some slokas don't's are prominent, but in every sloka there is do's and don't's. Everywhere there is. In the Bible also: "Thou shall not do. Thou shall not kill." The don't's. [break] You are learning sabda-rūpa, dhatu-rūpa?

Hiranyagarbha: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Every sloka there is sabda, dhatu, everything. Nominative, objective. [break] ...some you are going to say, just study yourself, whether it is not the civilization of asses and pigs. You have to understand first of all. Is it not? They are working hard like an ass just to become an ideal pig. Is it not this civilization?

Harikesa: Having sex with mother, daughter, sister...

Prabhupada: Yes. How sastra has picked up the example, just see. Sva-viḍ-varahostra. Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate... [SB 5.5.1]. What is that?

Harikesa: Viḍ-bhujam ye.

Prabhupada: Viḍ-bhujam ye. This is not civilization. This is civilization, tapasya: no meat-eating, no this, no this, that, and become perfect, ideal brahmana life, satya sama dama suci jnana vijnana. [Bg 18.42] This is civilization. Athato brahma-jijnasa. Unless you become civilized like this, there is no opportunity of brahma-jijnasa. And so long you do not inquire about Brahman, that you remain, that pigs and hogs and asses. If human civilization is simply wasted to cultivate the pig civilization, nature, "All right, you come here. Become a pig now. Take this body." Krsna will say, "Nature, prakrti, he got this chance to become human being, but has misused. Kindly give him a body of pig."

Then you get this yantra, how you can become perfect pig, whole day and night eat stool, and as soon as you get another opposite party, have sex. Doesn't matter whether it is daughter or mother or sister. That's all. Take Freud's philosophy and become highly advanced in civilization. Now the Freud's philosophy is being translated in Hindi and so many other languages. We are advancing in civilization, Indians. They are translating this Freud's philosophy, pig civilization. People therefore do not come to us. [chuckles] They avoid us because "They are not pigs."

Harikesa: Pigs don't like to live in a clean house.

Prabhupada: Yes. There is a story in Bhagavata that Indra was cursed to become a pig. So after some time there was mismanagement in the heavenly kingdom. Brahma personally came, "Indra, anyway, you became pig. Now you come with me." "Huh? How can I go? I have got so much responsibility." Then he was killed and took to heaven. So any life, any abominable condition, everyone is thinking, "I am perfect." This is called maya. Any abominable condition, he is thinking, everyone is thinking, that "I am perfect. I have nothing to advance." This is called maya. They do not know what is perfection. Na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. The ideal perfection they do not know. They are trying that "We shall make this pig life adjusted to civilized life." Is it possible? Pig life and adjusting to civilized life?

[aside:] Hare Krsna.

So we shall get down?

[break] Nobody will accept. But if you explain that "You are no better than pigs and hogs and asses," then they will accept. So we have to take the idea from Bhagavata and explain it for their understanding. That is wanted.

[break] People are working so hard. Is it pleasure? But why they are working? They are working with the only hope that "Night, I shall go home, eat nicely and have sex with my wife." That's all. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Otherwise why they will work so hard?

[aside:] Hare Krsna.

[break] ...Los Angeles we have got a plant like this next to my window. That land for others, but it comes to my window. What is this?

Bhavananda: Bougainvillea.

Harikesa: Srila Prabhupada? What about the point, in certain places in Bhagavatam it distinctly says that the human being's food is creatures of four legs with cloven hoof?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Harikesa: It distinctly says in some places in Bhagavatam that the human being's food is four-legged animals with a cloven hoof.

Prabhupada: Yes, if you remain animal. But that is not the ideal, that you remain animal. That is culture. If you want to remain animal, then it is all right. If you want to remain pig, you eat whatever you like. But if you don't want to remain a pig, then you have got to make discrimination. You have to take krsna-prasada. Because it is Bhagavatam, it is written that one animal is food for another animal. That is for the animal. And I have already said that this Vedic civilization is meant for making the animal a perfect person.

Harikesa: In the Manu-samhita also there is many, many rules about what kind of meat to eat.

Prabhupada: That is gradually. Gradually. If he cannot give up meat-eating, so, "All right, don't eat cows' flesh. You eat hogs. That's all." But the real purpose is to stop meat-eating. But that is also under restriction. "You can eat one goat. Sacrifice it before Goddess Kali under such and such rules and regulation. Then you take one piece of meat at night." So any sensible man-"Why I should undergo such rules and regulation for eating a little piece of meat? Better give it up." That is the idea. It is not that encouraging him. What is the meaning of encouraging? He is already eating meat. Why sastra should... The real way, nivrtteḥ... Pravrttir esam bhūtanam nivrttes tu maha-phalam [Manu-samhita 5.56]. The pravrtti, the inclination, is there. Now train him to give it up. That is wanted. Therefore Rsabhadeva says, tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1], that "Tapasya is your business." Tapo divyam. The human life is for tapasya-athato brahma-jijnasa-only discussion on Brahman, to understand Brahman, and tapasya. Therefore you find in India so many saintly persons, highly educated brahmanas, high literature, everything.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? One time you were explaining that Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when He was speaking with the Kazi, He convinced him about that the Koran does not actually advocate meat-eating.

Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact. Because the Muslims, they also cannot eat meat unless it is sacrificed in the mosque. There is no recommendation that you purchase from the market and the animal be slaughtered in the slaughterhouse.

Tamala Krsna: Is there some mention not to eat many animals but eat one...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Tamala Krsna: That's what I... I couldn't remember.

Prabhupada: Yes. In Arabia they were to eat animal, but to save him from so many dangerous and sinful life-he has to kill so many goats-better kill one life, a camel or a cow. Camel is big animal. So if you kill one animal, camel, it is equal to fifty goats.

Tamala Krsna: What about a cow?

Prabhupada: A cow is also big animal.

Tamala Krsna: So they say like that?

Prabhupada: Yes... They don't say cow. They say better kill one big animal. So "Instead of becoming sinful for killing so many animals, you better kill..." And that is also sacrificed in the mosque, and that is called koravani. Restriction is there.

Tamala Krsna: So there's no... The karma for killing many goats is more severe than killing one cow.

Prabhupada: No, no. You become responsible for each and every animal.

Tamala Krsna: Irrespective of what kind of animal.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now if you can serve the purpose by killing one animal, why should you take the risk of killing many animals?

Tamala Krsna: Even if that one animal is a cow.

Prabhupada: Yes. Animal is animal. And we say protect cow from economic point of view, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg 18.44]. Without saving cows you cannot get good food. Not from the animal point of view. You require milk and milk preparation.

Tamala Krsna: And the cow dies anyway.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Tamala Krsna: Cow is going to die naturally, anyway.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then, if you want flesh, take that dead body and eat.

Tamala Krsna: Why don't they see this, that just by killing a cow you don't get more cows. They're going to die anyway.

Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is going to die, but they are so voracious, they do not wait up to the death, and they have theorized that "Dead animal is dangerous to health. Now kill while it is in life."

Tamala Krsna: Just see.

Harikesa: Yes, they think like that.

Tamala Krsna: That's the reason.

Prabhupada: Yes, but... They have got so many nonsense philosophy. But if that philosophy is supported, when you kill the animal, he becomes dead. [laughter]

Sudama: Yes, they call it "fresh meat."

Prabhupada: Just see. "Fresh dead." Just see. The rascals are so fools that unless you make him dead, you cannot eat. So why do you theorize that a dead animal is not good?

Harikesa: Well, 'cause he had to die from some cause, and that cause is...

Prabhupada: Cause, all right. It is also cause. You are killing, that's all.

Harikesa: The knife is clean, whereas the germs are...

Prabhupada: That's all right. Formerly the Hindus, they used to purchase meat and cook it in Ganges water. [laughter]

Tamala Krsna: Oh, boy.

Harikesa: Purify it.

Prabhupada: Yes. They thought, "Now it is..." And you will still find in Calcutta, "Hindu butcher." That Hindu butcher is pure. There is a... You have been in Calcutta? So they are going on.

Tamala Krsna: The Jews have that, "Kosher butcher."

Prabhupada: "Mother's prasadam." The rascals say, "It is mother's prasadam."

Tamala Krsna: Durga, Kali-prasadam.

Prabhupada: Yes. The Ramakrishna Mission, they take mother's prasadam. And they call...

Tamala Krsna: And you will also be mother's prasadam.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Sudama: Even they kill fresh, Srila Prabhupada, sometimes they will kill a cow who has some disease in liver, and then they will eat it and they will all die...

Prabhupada: Well, they manufacture so many ways. That does not mean we have to support it. We accept that these are animals, that's all.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada? There's a... I was telling... We were talking this morning that in America they have a custom. The children, when they eat a dead, like a bird or something, a turkey, there is one part, I think it's the breastbone. So the children, after one of them finishes eating the breastbone, they both hold, each hold one end, and they break it, and whoever has the biggest part... Each one makes a wish. Whoever gets the biggest part, they think that their wish will be fulfilled. So this is a raksasa civilization. So I am only amazed how you were able to make such a big movement with so many..., such raksasas as we are. That was what I was thinking, that we were the people who were doing that, and yet you have delivered us.

Prabhupada: And therefore people are surprised that "How this man is doing like this?" They are surprised. Everyone is surprised.

Tamala Krsna: They can't imagine how fallen we were. I don't think they think it's really possible to reform so...

Prabhupada: It is impossible.

Tamala Krsna: But you have done the impossible.

Sudama: Therefore they think that we are hypnotized.

Prabhupada: Even Sridhara Maharaja says that "This prthivite ache yata nagaradi grama , we simply thought that it is an ideal, but you have practically done this." He admits that.

Tamala Krsna: I remember.

Dayananda: In London you said that you were changing crows to swans.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dayananda: It is impossible to change a crow to swan, but you are changing crows to swans.

Tamala Krsna: Actually, in reading the description of Jagai and Madhai, they don't seem as bad as we were.

Prabhupada: [laughs]

Harikesa: That's a fact.

Prabhupada: We shall go this way? No.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, we have time.

Prabhupada: Therefore Kaviraja Gosvami says, jagai madhai haite muni se papistha: "I am lower than the Jagai-Madhai."

Tamala Krsna: "And to utter my name..." I think the next verse he says, "To utter my name will bring all..."

Prabhupada: Yes. Mora nama yei laya tara punya ksaya: "If one takes my name, then whatever little pious activities you have, it is spoiled." Purisera kita haite muni se laghistha , jagai madhai haite muni se papistha. Mora nama sune yei laya tara punya ksaya. How humble he is.

Hari-sauri: Maharaja Prataparudra was also thinking like that.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Hari-sauri: Maharaja Prataparudra, when he was refused interviews by Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: He was thinking, "He saved Jagai and Madhai, but I am so low that He won't come and see...., I am not able to see Him."

Prabhupada: Yes. "Jagai-Madhai was delivered, but I am so lower that I have no chance of being delivered." Prataparudra Maharaja.

Harikesa: It's inconceivable how he could think like that.

Prabhupada: No, every Vaisnava thinks like that. A Vaisnava never thinks, "I have become perfect." Even Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, what to speak of others.

[break] ...are carrying cement? Hmm? [end]