Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.7.22–25 – March 19, 1971, Bombay

Maharaja, you are very charitable

Prabhupada: The [indistinct]

Mataji: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That, fall down.

So Prahlada Maharaja is indicating that by analysis of the body and soul under the process of sahkhya-yoga system. One should try to distinguish soul from the body.

There are two kinds of bodies, moving and not moving. Dehas tu sarva-sahghato, this body is combination of all the above elements, the five elements. And the 10 senses and the sense objects in this way 24 elements and one has to analyze which of them are material and which of them are spiritual. Or which of them is the original cause and which of them are byproducts of them. The original cause is the spirit soul. Without spirit soul... Just like the seed of a tree that is the original source of the tree. Within that seed the whole tree is there impregnated. When there is facility for growing, the seed fructifies in a big tree. In a big tree. That is the nature study of how the potencies are there in Krsna.

Sometimes it becomes bewildering how Krsna has produced this creation from His body. So we can study from nature that it is possible. Even a very small seed just like a mustard seed there is a big banyan tree, that potency is there. Now how the material scientists can explain that from a small seed, like a mustard and if you, you get sufficient nursing. Nursing facilities then it will grow into big tree. Not only big tree it produces many millions of seeds also. A big tree means there are millions of fruits and each fruit has got so many seeds and each seed has got so many seeds. This is the growing of creation

[aside:]... What is this?

Devotee (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: So when Krsna says: aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvam pravartate [Bg 10.8]. So how we can believe that? But those who are mūḍhaḥ, rascals they disagree. How it is possible that Krsna has produced such a big gigantic material world it puzzles them. They cannot accommodate in their brain. Therefore they deny that Krsna the original cause of all causes can be perfect. That is their misfortune.

So as we have to find out the soul within this body. Similarly we have to find out the Supreme Cause of all these fields. This body is a factification of the desires of the soul. Yam yam vapi smaran loke [Bg 8.6]. We leave aside this body at the time of death but I am the spirit soul one ten thousandth part of the upper proportion of the hair that is my magnitude. But I am covered with desires, mano buddhi ahahkara [Bg 7.4].

And with that desires I am blown into favorable circumstances by which I can again grow a body according to my desires. All these subtle laws can be understood by the gross speculative, speculator. It is beyond their speculation. Therefore sastra says avah-manasa-gocara. But that is happening, that is happening. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhūtanam [Bg 7.10].

And these part and parcel, these small particles is Krsna's part and parcel. Because Krsna's part and parcel, Krsna says: bijo 'ham sarva-bhūtanam. The seed of everything, all these living entities, all different kinds of bodies, Krsna says, "I am." Bijo 'ham sarva-bhūtanam. Because He is the original, just like the original wheat.., the original seed there is a tree and in the tree there are millions of fruits and each fruit there are several hundred thousands of seeds. Again in each seed there is hundreds and thousands of trees. So the original seed is Krsna. Original seed is Krsna. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhūtanam. [Bg 7.10]

What is the difficulty to understand? Let us discuss these are very important points. You have to preach. What is difficulty to understand that Krsna is the cause of all causes? Eh? Is there any difficulty? When Krsna says that, "I am, I am the...": aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvam pravartate [Bg 10.8].

"I am the cause of all causes, everything emanates from Me." The Vedanta says Parabrahma the absolute truth is that from whom everything emanates. What is the difficulty? Hm? The materialist, materialistic science, scientist, material scientists they say, "There was a chunk." But a chunk is the cause or Krsna is the cause? Just try to understand. How they explain a chunk is the cause? And our explanation is there, just like a father. A father impregnates with a seed and a child is born. That child, child is the father of man. He becomes father, he also produces so many. You see so many things are going on practically. So original person, original father He is the cause of all causes. What is the difficulty in understanding? Eh? Why do they say that there is no personal God, there is no cause, the material world has come into existence by chance, by cracking one chunk. So is that very good explanation?

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: The law of creation. Just take the part of the material scientist and argue, make it clear. What is the creation, the law of creation. What does it say? Creation? Nobody can say?

Devotee (1): They have that chunk theory.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (1): They have that chunk theory.

Prabhupada: So chunk is a matter.

Devotee (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Gurudas: [indistinct] father give birth to child so a chunk would give birth to matter. So how could.. even if we accept that Krsna is a personality. How could Krsna give birth to not a child but some globe, some planet? Chunk would give birth to a planet and father would give birth to a child.

Prabhupada: So what is the answer?

Devotee (1): [indistinct] father [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No give answer to this question. He is intelligent.

Devotee (3): Then how do you get a father impersonal and chunk?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (3) How does a father a person [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hm? I do not follow. What is? Hm?

Gurudas: He was saying what comes first the father or the chunk?

Prabhupada: Yes that is nice. Yes. That is very intelligent answer. Whether the chunk comes or the father comes first? What is the answer? Hm?

Gurudas: The father is greater he can give birth to chunk and someone [?]

Prabhupada: Yes. The chunk is a development, matter is a development from spirit. Chunk is matter.

Devotee (1): Fingernail.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (1): Fingernail [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Ah. So this body, this body has grown because the soul was there. If the soul. If a dead child is born immediately the growth stops. You cannot receive that body, dead body it will not grow. Therefore naturally we conclude that the material growth takes place on the basis of spirit soul. A chunk is matter as such chunk cannot because of creation but the spirit soul is the cause of creation. And Krsna is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. He is completely spiritual. There is no matter. So if that small particle, atomic portion of spirit can develop into such gigantic body. Develops the body of an ant, develops the body of an this elephant. Sometimes He develops the body of big mountain also. The mountains they are also growing. That is also the body of a spirit soul. There are many mountains they are growing. There is many mountains. So we should not be astonished by seeing the gigantic body of a mountain but the cause is spirit soul. So as you experience from this material world that spirit soul is the cause.

So Buddhist theory is that there is no spirit soul. That is being followed at the present moment by the material scientists. That the matter, combination of matter produces at a certain stage living condition. Is not that?

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Hm? So is that very sound theory? Eh?

Gurudas: No because matter always uses a catalyst. There is a chemical theory that matter always needs a life giving force to happen. Matter alone cannot produce life it needs a catalyst. It's not a sound theory.

Prabhupada: The scientists believe in that? Do they believe?

Devotee (1): [indistinct] chemical [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (1): [indistinct] chemicals.

Tamal Krsna: [indistinct]

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Tamal Krsna: They have [indistinct] introduced this vocabulary they are inventing [indistinct] something material and that they can find it out.

Mataji: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hm?

Mataji: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: They take help?

Mataji: No.

Prabhupada: And produce life?

Devotees: [Laughter]

Mataji: [indistinct] somehow [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That is not living, that is interaction of matter only. Just like acid and alkali mixed they become agitation, what is called? Effervescence? That is not life that is chemical interaction. Life, even a small germ it has got eyes, it's moving. It is moving, sometimes we find a pulse of light, insect in the book moving. There is hands and legs and heart and everything is there. Eh? So on account of presence of the soul he has got that small body. So that body is also production, by product of the soul and the gigantic elephant body is also the same or the gigantic mountain or hill. The process is the same. The bija-seed there is. There is identical study Prahlada Maharaja recommends it. That:

Neti netity-you analyze whether this is life, whether this is life. Atat, atat means-which is superfluous matter. Matter, set aside the matter try to find out where is the soul, where is the soul? That is meditation, so actually that is meditation to think over where is the soul, where is the soul? Atat tyajan. That requires intelligence. So modern, some modern scientific point of view they are accepting that the heart is the source of all energy. Is it not? Do they not say like that? Heart? Eh?

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Therefore it is soul is the cause of all creation and we are finding out that from the heart all energies are coming to maintain this body. Then it shall be concluded that the soul and the Supersoul is there in the heart. And from the sastra we understand: isvaraḥ sarva-bhūtanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg 18.61].

The controller, the individual soul controller, isvaraḥ, isvaraḥ means. [indistinct] isvaraḥ that I have explained several times because you are controlling our bodily actions. Just as I am sitting here but if I like I can go from here. So I am controlling the bodily actions, walking. So I am isvaraḥ and I am in control but why I am willing to. Not to sit down here but go away. That is being controlled by Supersoul. Simply my willing will not do. Just like if I am willing that let this finger work but if Krsna does not like then your finger is paralysed you cannot work. Therefore you are not supreme controller. You want to control, you want to act something with your finger but if Krsna does not like then you cannot. Although you may claim that it is my finger I can use it as I like. But if Krsna does not like then you cannot use. Therefore the Supersoul is also there. That is explained by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita; sarvasya cahamhrdi sannivisto [Bg 15.15].

He also says hrdi, hrdi means-in the heart. "I am staying in everyone's heart." Eh? Hrdi, hrdi means-in the heart. Sarvasya cahamhrdi sannivisto, "I am sitting here." Mattaḥ smrtir jnanam apohanam. Mattaḥ, just like we are sleeping, you forget everything but as soon as I am awake. Krsna gives me smrti, now you have to do this. You have got this, you have got this so watch yourself, so many things. So as soon as I rise up early in the morning I immediately turn and pick up my beads, mattaḥ smrtir jnanam. And sometimes I forget when there is paralytic of the brain. Ah, no more, I cannot do it. But the materialist they are thinking that this construction of the brain. What is called? Cerebral.

Devotee (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Cerebral. That is being inspiration. No. This is only a mechanical, this is mechanical. Just like you're typing, you're typing. You are taking help of the typewriter. But there is spirit, who is, who is cognisant, sat cit. Cit. That cit means-living force. That is type. Sometimes we will find electric, electronic. You type here-and other typewriter also it is going on. But that is not being done automatically because somebody is taking help from the electronic, typing here therefore it is working in another type. So anyway you study atat nirataḥ, this Prahlada Maharaja says that the superfluous things should be rejected. You find out the ultimate cause-purusaḥ. You find out the ultimate cause.

If you make an analytical study then you will find-this is not ultimate cause. This is not ultimate cause, this is not ultimate cause. You come to the spirit soul. This is intelligence.

Svarga-sthana, svarga means-creator and sthana means-maintenance. Svarga-sthana-samamnayair, so we have to make analytical study how the structure of the body, the material world is created. How it is being maintained. Eh? So vivekenosatatmana, that requires intelligence-vivekena. Who can distinguish, usata. Who can distinguish what is actually eternal and what is simply temporary thing, osatatmana. So anvaya-vyatirekena, anvaya, anvaya means-directly, vyatirekena-indirectly. By analytical study vivekena also good conscious and intelligence. Those who are elevated they can find out, svarga-stha..., svarga-sthana-samamnayair..., asatvaraiḥ-very soon, they can find. That the soul is the cause of this body and the supreme soul Krsna is the cause of all creation.

Just like, we, when there are three stages-jagaranam susuptiḥ and svapnaḥ. There are three stages, one stages is jagaranam that is we are all awaken. Another stage is sleeping, sleeping but I am working. I am working, I am dreaming, that means I am working. And another stage is no dream, practically unconscious. That is called-susuptiḥ. Just like when you are in the womb of the mother there is susuptiḥ, practically. But as some of you might have some experience if you had undergone surgical operation. You are made unconscious by anaesthetics. Anaesthetics, and in that condition you are practically unconscious. You forget, then gradually you come to the dreaming stage. Then you come to the awakened stage. Three stages.

So these three stages one should understand. Vrttayaḥta yenaivanubhūyante so 'dhyaksaḥ. So when we can understand then these three stages the person who is always existing that is atma. That is atma. So similarly take this creation of this material world. This material world is the same process. Just like I remain in susuptiḥ-unconscious state then when creation takes place then my body develops. Then I dream and then when it is fully developed I come out, I walk. The whole process of creation is like that. So as within... In the process of creation dreaming and working-I the soul am existing always. Similarly this material creation also is exactly like that and Krsna is always there, aham evasam evagre [SB 2.9.33].

It is Bhagavata it is said that, "Before the creation I was there. In the creation I am there and when the creation will annihilated, still I am there," prakrtim yanti mamikam [Bg 9.7]. Therefore Sahkaracarya also says, narayanaḥ para avyaktat. "The creation takes place from the avyaktat non-manifested, total material energy. But Krsna is transcendental above this material created energy. He is the director of this energy." That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ sūyate sa-caracaram [Bg 9.10].

The total energy, mahat-tattva is working under His superintendence, under His direction. Therefore He is the cause of all causes. Either you take individually about yourself, you individual soul is the cause of all causes, not all causes of your own body. Not others body. Eh? But Krsna is the cause of all causes. Your body, others body, therefore He is Supersoul, He is Paramesvara. Eh? Īsvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ [Bs 5.1]. In this way you have to make analytical study. Prahlada Maharaja is stating. [break]

Gurudas: Characteristics of real life has the power to chemical interaction's [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Hm?

Gurudas: [indistinct] evacuation what is the...

Prabhupada: Knowledge. Knowledge, resistance. By chemical reaction there may be some movement but there is no knowledge. And another calculation of life is-seeking pleasure. Matter has no knowledge, neither it is seeking pleasure. Therefore it is not life. Even sometimes artificially you see movement. Just like in the sky there is movement of the clouds that does not mean it is living. There must be knowledge, a small ant it is moving-you stop it. It has knowledge, it goes this way or this way.

Devotees: [Laughs]

Prabhupada: It has knowledge. And why that is going this way, ananda, there is a grain of sugar here. Therefore it is going.

Devotees: [Laughs]

Prabhupada: And study nature, how you can say matter and life is the same thing. It is all ignorance, nonsense. There must be knowledge and their seeking after pleasure. There must be resistance. That you cannot produce. In the laboratory you have not produced. Then what is the use of your talking, "That this is the cause, this is the cause, this is the cause."

Devotee (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Resistance-the same end. You try to stop, it will struggle. "Why you are stopping me?"

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: Eh? The child-resistance! Eh? Resistance means the living entity is seeking after pleasure. If you stop, then it will resist. Sac-cid-ananda.

Devotee (1): Could one say that water has the same resistance?

Prabhupada: No. It is not like, it is matter.

Devotee (1): But if you try to stop water, it will…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (1): If you try to stop up the water, like in a dam. It will seek the... seek an alternative..

Prabhupada: That is the water is flowing by gravitation, that is not life.

Gurudas: What knowledge is there?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Gurudas: No knowledge.

Prabhupada: No knowledge. It is simply because it is down flow. Say it is falling down with so much force but it has no knowledge. It has no knowledge that I will have to go to the sea. There is no such knowledge. It is going because it is down towards the sea, vaguely the same. That's all. Gravitation. That is not like. That is called ajagala-stanasyam, aj... The [indistinct]... ajagala-stanasyam. Sometimes we find on the, on the neck of a goat there are so many drop like nipples. You have seen? But that does not mean if you touch it there is a milk.

Devotee (1): [Laughs]

Prabhupada: [Laughs] can you draw milk from that? It looks like milk bag, that is not milk, ajagala-stanasyam. Stana means breast but that is not bread. The milk is there in the breast not in that, on the neck. So many nipples, no. Hm?

Devotee (1): Comprehend the soul. Seems to be one has to have a spiritual understanding. Comprehend the soul with the mind and you have to have some spiritual understanding of the spiritual blessing and spiritual [indistinct]. How can one perceives the spirit soul by [indistinct] the chemical process.

Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is another illusion. How you can produce chemical process spirit soul?

Devotee (1): No, I mean by sahkhya philosophy you could by analyzing the elements and distinguish between matter and spirit. One can conclude, one can find out the spirit soul. What is the purifying aspect of this sahkhya philosophy?

Prabhupada: Sahkhya philosophy is not perfect. Sahkhya, sahkhya philosophy. In modern sahkhya philosophy by the apex copula. There are two Kapila. One Kapila is incarnation of God, that, that is real Kapila. But in the later days there is another Kapila. People misunderstand this Kapila with that Kapila. He is atheist. Narista 'stan [?] narista [?] Kapila. There are. That is like Buddha philosophy. Eh? Analytical the matter and the theory is that combination of matter creates a living force.

Devotee (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (1): [indistinct] how we could, I mean.

Prabhupada: How you come to India? You have got your father and mother. Why you have come here? Why?

Devotee (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (1): Because we find something more than…

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, as you have come to India. Similarly from the spiritual world you can come to the material world. What is the difficulty to understand?

Devotee (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You have got your loving relationship with your father. Why you have left your father and come here?

Devotee (1): Because [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Is there any scarcity of love, from your father's side, from your mother's side? They are rather unhappy, that you have left them and come here. But why you have come here?

Devotee (1): That is temporary.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (1): So that we can hear you. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Temporary or permanent that is different thing. But you have got the right to leave your father and come, go anywhere. Similarly Krsna is the original father and you have got the independence to give up your father and come to this material world for sense enjoyment. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha [Prema-vivarta, 6.2].

Eh? I don't like my father, I don't like my mother, I must live independently for sense gratification. That is the cause. It does not mean because you have got loving relationship with Krsna you cannot go away from Him. You may stop the function of loving relationship and come to suffer in this material world. That is in your power. Everyone has got the right. Krsna does not interfere in that right.

Devotee (1): Soon after the living entity re-establishs his relationship with Krsna.

Prabhupada: Relationship is already there. You have simply forgotten.

Devotee (1): Is it assumed that we can fall down again?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (1): After we remember our relationship?

Prabhupada: That is the process of Krsna consciousness. Just to remind you. That go back. Why you are suffering here? That is the whole propaganda. A man is sleeping and, another man is saying that. "Mr. John get up, get up, the shoelace, shoelace, get up, get up, get up."

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: The same process, jiv jago, jiv jago, gauracanda bole [Arunodaya-kirtana (part 2)]. It is simply reminding process. Kota nidra yao maya-pisacira kole. How long you shall remain sleeping like this under the influence of maya? Please get up! This is the process... Hm?

Devotee (1): Then one could ask the question if we were ever in, by the course and character [?] of Krsnaloka with Krsna in our spiritual body associating with Him in our particular rasas. Will we still have to be manifested[?] or will we always be non-manifest state and then manifest in the material world.

Prabhupada: No. No, we are manifest in the spiritual world also.

Devotee (1): We are also allowed. We are allowed freedom in the spiritual world. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. We move just like we are sitting together, similarly in the spiritual world also. We will play together as cowherd's boy, as servant, as gopis, like that.

Devotee (1): So we have less [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee : And now we have less [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (2): Then after we chant, after we finish our probation[?] will it be possible, you know, once again following this material creation.

Prabhupada: Yes. We have got, that possibility is there but being experienced we do not like to come back.

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: Being smashed too much and being kicked too much by maya, we may not like to come. You see? Just like in the civil disobedience movement Gandhi's followers they went to jail and they were kicked too much. And next time when they were requested, "No sir, I don't."

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: [Laughs] "No more."

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: [Laughs] When Gandhi could not find out anyone to go to jail. Then he. Once he, to save his honor he said, "All right anyone who likes he can have it, I don't take." But if he says, nobody will care to obey. Because they have very bad experience. I asked some of my friends who went to jail. "What is your next [indistinct] you are going?" [Laughs] "No, I'm not going."

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: Somebody died. The punishment was so severe. That after coming out that C. R. Das and many leaders they could not suffer so much. The effect was that they died. Actually the Britishers they wanted to kill. All the leaders were... Gandhi was very intelligent. He would not accept any jail food. He would take his goat and he fraught[?] the goat for the milk and he would take little milk. It was a hard struggle, Gandhi's movement, you see. And C. R. Das died, Motilal Nehru died, all his lieutenants all died. They were given poisoned food. They... And as soon as they came out from jail died.

So similarly the maya is like that. Kicking, kicking, kicking, kicking, kicking-those who are too foolish they cannot understand that. Why I am being kicked up? 'Ke ami', that Sanatana Gosvami'ke ami', 'kene amaya jare tapa-traya' [Madhya 20.102]. "What I am? Why I am suffering?" So the animals cannot say. So unless one is the.., on to this point that I am suffering, he is an animal. He is not a man. Whole day suffering, working hard, mūḍha. They have been called mūḍha, mūḍhaḥ means just like ass. The ass is bearing load, huge load of the washerman. For others, all these men they are working but when they go home they will take only the same two capatis-or three capatis. But they are working, very big businessmen, R. D. Birla.

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: Accumulating money. And as soon as he goes away the whole money is there. He goes to become a cat and dog. Therefore they are mūḍhaḥ's. Most foolish these karmis. They are simply satisfied temporarily having a very good [indistinct] house and some [indistinct] bank balance. Nice apartment, nice wife, but he has no knowledge. That I am eternal, I have got this particular body due to my good work or pious action and I am enjoying. And next what is? What is I simply do not know. So why I am in this business, changing body in a different situation? That is intelligence. Otherwise they are simply mūḍhas, rascals. If I say Mr. such and such, you take all these rasgullas. You are eating, "Well it is very nice." But after eating rasgulla I will take you there and I beat you with shoes. Eh? Will you accept those rasgullas?

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: You will say, "No, no I don't want any."

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: "I don't want." [Laughs]. On this condition I give you rasgulla that you take it and after taking it as soon as you go I shall beat you with shoes. Will you like to take rasgullas? Yes. The karmis are like that. Just like animals. Animal you give him some grass but his next step is with slaughter. But he does not know. He is satisfied, "Oh I have got so much grass, let me eat."

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: This is the position of the karmis. Therefore they do not believe in the next life. That is it becomes horrible. They do not believe in the next life. Because if there is next life, if there is God then everything becomes topsy-turvy their programme. Why I am committing so much sinful life? If there is God, if there is nature then I have to suffer. They don't believe. But you believe or not believe the law is there.

Devotee (1): Yeah.

Prabhupada: So to understand all these things is impediment. Otherwise I don't, that's all.

Devotee (2): [indistinct] relationship with Krsna [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Complete means you have got the independence therefore it is complete. But you can misuse your independence that is your business. Complete because you have got independence, that is complete. If I make condition that you cannot do at any circumstance. Then these are not complete. You are not complete. The freedom is there but when you misuse that freedom, you fall down.

Just like every citizen of your country they are independent but he is not completely independent. If he makes... If he violates the law of the state he is to be punished. But there is independence, you can do, you can become a very great man like George Washington and you can become a hippie.

Devotees: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: Completely independent. Now it is your choice. [Laughs] If... Just ah... If we... If the state, if the state says that you cannot become otherwise-except this hippie or George Washington. That is not complete. The state gives independence you can become George Washington or hippie. What is that? That is complete, independence. Now if you make your choice to become hippie, you suffer. What can be done? But to become George Washington, the door is open. [End]