18--Room Conversation with Śyāmasundara

Prabhupada: …without spirit. Therefore when the spirit soul goes away, the body does not grow. A child is born, but if he dies then the body will not grow. If a dead body grows also, then his theory is alright. A dead body does not grow...

Syamasundara: Their theories that cells, cells, the building blocks of these bodies, living body, they form themselves in certain combinations in order to perform certain functions, and if they get to a certain point and the conditions prove themselves unfavorable, then those cells will...

Prabhupada: How it becomes unfavorable? If it is... Cells grow, cells come in contact, so they are taking on accidentally?

Syamasundara: No...,

Prabhupada: Then?

Syamasundara: ...there is some arrangement that they get together, one group of cells...

Prabhupada: Then how the arrangement stops?

Syamasundara: Well, the conditions become unfavorable.

Prabhupada: How? That we say: the conditions become unfavorable because the soul is not there.

Syamasundara: Mm. They say just like one group of cells decides to be the digestive organ; another group of cells decides to take over...

Prabhupada: Decides?

Syamasundara: Well, there is some decision. There must be.

Prabhupada: Who decides?

Syamasundara: Hah. That's the point.

Prabhupada: Who decides?

Devotee (2): Daiva [providence].

Prabhupada: [laughs]

Syamasundara: Yeah, that's the missing point. The scientists, they see that the cells, certain cells ingest food, certain cells digest food, certain cells excrete food, but they don't understand what arranges these cells, why these cells decide…

Prabhupada: Therefore there must be God. That is the proof that there is God.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Prabhupada: One case it is decided; one case is not decided.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: That is the answer in Bhagavad-gita, mattaḥ:

He's taking it mattaḥ, with Paramatma. The Supersoul is there. He decides. He decides, He wills. He arranges, paras…, parasya saktir vividhaiva srūyate [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8], by His subtle energy. His. He does like that. Prakrti, nature. Nature is directed by God.

Syamasundara: The closest the scientists can come is that they have found a substance, chemical, called DNA. And they say this chemical substance stores up memory, so that in the offspring, the cells automatically arrange themselves in a certain way according to the memory pattern which is produced by this chemical, DNA.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Syamasundara: So what they are doing now is they are experimenting with this chemical. They are imprinting different memories on it to see if the offspring will be changed, and they are producing mutations. They can produce rats that have…, that are not rat-like, that they have lost memory of their rat pattern of life by changing their DNA factors.

Prabhupada: So?

Syamasundara: So it would seem that these cells have some kind of intelligence if they are going to arrange themselves in certain ways.

Prabhupada: That is another nonsense. This is nonsense. Therefore they are rascals. The cells have no intelligence. The intelligence is of the Supersoul. He is arranging.

Syamasundara: Hah.

Prabhupada: We get this information in Bhagavad-gita, mattaḥ smrtir jnanam [Bg 15.15]: "By My arrangement."

Syamasundara: They think it is all accidental, just like...

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. As soon as you say "accident," then you are a fool. You do not know the cause-you take it as accident. That means you are fool. As soon as you say "cannot explain," "accidental," that means that you are fool number one. We say immediately that you are fool number one.

Syamasundara: Yeah. They explain it like this: Supposing there is one cell; he is able to digest a little food and live a little time, but he finds out accidentally by connecting with another cell that his life is better improved if he takes over the function of eating and the other cell takes over the function of digesting. Then it becomes a combination of two cells. And then they hook up with some other cells and find that life is easier for all of them if some of them eat and some of them excrete and some of them digest. So that combinations gradually build up of more complicated forms of life.

Prabhupada: Then why some of them willing? They are living entities. They are willing shelter? Willing?

Syamasundara: They must be.

Prabhupada: Then you have to accept the living entity, which is beyond matter. The cells are matter, but the living entity is arranging. So the living entity is superior.

Syamasundara: Supposing you have one cell that's a living entity and another cell is a living entity and another cell-many cells, each living entities-and they decide to combine to one living entity?

Prabhupada: That can be decided. Just like we, I mean to say, lift some heavy thing combinely-five, six men take this table. So the table is not lifted automatically; five, six men has agreed to lift it, and I say put it here.

Syamasundara: But then is there one soul?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: Is there one soul, then, that becomes one soul?

Prabhupada: No, there are many souls.

Syamasundara: I mean if there is a combination in one body, suppose my body. Now some people would say my body is composed of millions and billions of individual living entities.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: So where is the one soul? If there are millions of souls in this body, where is the one?

Prabhupada: So I am prominent.

Syamasundara: Oh, there is a prominent soul?

Prabhupada: Yes. I am prominent. Just like there may be thousands of workers, but they are all working on my order…

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: …on my desire.

Syamasundara: So each cell in my body is an individual living entity?

Prabhupada: That may be. But within my body there are many living entities. Many. Everywhere there are many living entities. Because my body is the reservoir of many living entities, and in spite of having many living entities, when my body is dead, or when the whole structure is…, stops functioning, although there are many living entities, they cannot give life to this body.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Because I am…, as the individual chief has left. Therefore in spite of so many living entities, it cannot be brought into life. That is the proof. That body potency to create living entities is already there. They say something is missing-that is rascaldom. Nothing is missing. Everything is there, but the particular living entity, he has left. It was his body. It was given to him. Now he has been given another position; he has gone there.

Syamasundara: So the chief living entity gathers all the other billions of living entities into one body. Oh, I see. So if he leaves, then none of them can function.

Prabhupada: Just like if the manager leaves the…, there are so many workers, they cannot work. So work stops.

Syamasundara: Okay. Sometimes they say when a body dies, a man dies, his nails and his hair continue to grow for some days. So they are like independent living entities, the cells of the nails and the hair…

Prabhupada: These are theories.

Syamasundara: ...and they continue to grow for some days.

Prabhupada: Maybe. But remember, the ingredients for growing, not dried up. So it is going. There is some substance which I cut my hair and it still grows. There is some substance. The same example: Just like the fan is moving. You stop it, it is still moving. That will go for a few seconds to a minute. Similarly, it may grow.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: That is you cut-one small leaf is growing-you cut it. It may grow a little more, then no more. The energy stopped, but the already reserve energy may help. That is [indistinct].

Syamasundara: Just like a flower. You can cut it and put it in some water, and it will grow a little bit more.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right.

Syamasundara: So the cells-there are millions of living cells-they continue like momentum doing their function.

Prabhupada: There are so many living entities within my intestines, within my stool.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So many. Within my cup. Even in eyes. Why these eyes are itching? Yes. There are living entities. Yes. There are some germs, so when they move it becomes irritated, that's all. [end]