Lecture on Saṅkīrtana – November 30, 1969, London

691130LE-LONDON [84:01 Minutes]

Release from material entanglement

[microphone is moving around]
[aside: you can bind it, some, something]

Ladies and gentlemen I thank you very much for your participating in this...

[aside: finish it; that's all right]

...the sahkirtana movement. Today's subject matter is kirtana?

Devotee: Yes, sahkirtana process.

Prabhupada: Sahkirtana. This word sahkirtana is a Sanskrit word. Sam means samyak, "complete," and kirtana means "glorifying" or "describing." Kirtaye. So this complete description means complete glorification of the Supreme, of the Supreme complete whole.

Kirtana does not mean that you can describe anything or glorify anything, that will become kirtana. From grammatical point of view, that may be kirtana, but according to Vedic scriptures, when you speak of kirtana, that kirtana means describing the supreme authority, the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is called kirtana.

Sravanam kirtanam [SB 7.5.23]. This devotional service begins from the method of sravanam. Sravanam means "hearing," and kirtana, and "describe." One should describe and one should hear, or the same man himself can describe and hear himself. He doesn't require any other's help. Just like if you chant Hare Krsna, you chant and you hear. This is complete. This is complete method. Sravanam kirtanam. But what is that chanting and hearing? Visnu. Not of anything else.

Godhead, by these methods. What are these? Sravanam, hearing. You have to hear. If you hear simply, that is the beginning. You don't require any education; don't require any development of knowledge. In any position. Just like this child, you have seen many times. As soon as she hears, immediately she response and dances.

So by nature God has given us this nice instrument, ear. You can simply hear, that's all. But you must hear from the right source. That is said in the Srimad-Bhagavatam:

Satam prasahgat. Satam means "devotees," those who are devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are called satam.

Tat-josanat. If you hear from the right sources… Right source means one must be realized soul; then it will act. Bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanaḥ kathaḥ. This katha means these wordings of God, or Krsna, they become very relishable, palatable. Bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanaḥ. Rasayanaḥ means "relief."Kathaḥ taj-josanad.

Now if you are intelligent enough, if you give your thought also, what is spoken by the realized soul, taj-josanad asu. Asu means "very soon," "immediately." Apavarga-vartmani. Apavarga means "release from material entanglement"; pavarga means "entanglement." In Sanskrit there are pa, pha, ba, bha, ma. Each word conveys some meaning. So they are called pavarga.

So apavarga-vartmani. The human life is meant for advancing on the path of liberation, apavarga. That is called apavarga, "not entangled." We are always entangled. To accept this material body means we are already entangled. Don't progress in the process of entanglement. That process is karma. So long the mind will be absorbed in karma, you will have to accept this material body. Yam yam vapi smaran loke [Bg 8.6].

At the time of death if your mind is absorbed-"Oh, I could not finish this work. Oh, I am dying. I had to do this. I had to do that"- that means Krsna will give you another chance for doing that. You have to accept. You have to accept. He will give you time, "All right, you could not do it. Now you do it. You get this body."

Therefore Bhagavata says,

These rascals, they have become mad, pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means "mad," "intoxicated."Kurute vikarma, by intoxication they are acting something which they should not have done, but they are doing it. Why? Indriya-pritaya. Yad indriya-pritaya. Just like there is very good example, Maharaja Dhrtarastra.

Maharaja Dhrtarastra was planning some intrigue how to cheat the Panḍavas in favor of his own son. So Krsna sent His uncle to advise him not to do that. He understood, but he said, replied, "My dear Akrūra, whatever you are saying is quite all right, but it does not stand in my heart. So I have to. I cannot change my policy. I'll have to follow this policy and let whatever it may, come."

So people become, when they want to satisfy their senses, they become mad, pramattaḥ. So in this madness they do everything. Just like we have got many instances in this material life that sometimes, when one is too much after something, he commits some criminal action, commits even murder. He cannot check himself. Similarly, we are being accustomed to sense gratification. We are mad, and therefore our mind is full absorbed in karma.

So Rsabhadeva says, na sadhu manye: "This is not good." Why this is not good? Because yata atmano 'yam asann api klesada asa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. This body, although temporary, it is the result of all, I mean to say, misfortune, miseries, klesada. Klesada means always giving trouble.

These things are to be studied. We should not be mad. Human life is not meant for that. That is the defect of the present civilization. They are mad after sense gratification, that's all. They do not know this value of life-neglecting the most valuable life, human form of life.

And as soon as this body is finished, there is no guarantee what kind of body he is going to take next. Suppose in my next life, by chance, I get the life of a tree. For thousands of years I'll have to stand up in one place. So they are not very serious. They even say, "What is there? Even if I stand up, I shall forget." Actually, forgetfulness, unless one forgets, he cannot stand up.

The tree, if it is not in forgetfulness, it is impossible. Suppose if you are asked, "You stand up for three days here," you will become mad, because you are not forgetful. So by nature's law, all these lower grade of life, they are forgetful. Their consciousness is not developed. Even you cut, just like when you cut the tree, it does not like, but its consciousness is not developed, does not respond. Animal.

So this life, human form of life, we should be very careful. This movement, Krsna consciousness movement, is meant for giving perfect sense to your life. It is a not a thing to bluff, or exploitation. But unfortunately people are accustomed to be bluffed. There is a verse by Indian poet, sacca bole tomare lattha, jhūtha jagat bhulay: "If you speak nice thing, 'Today will be with loggerhead,' what nonsense you are speaking?"

And if you give them bluff, and cheat them, oh, they will be very glad. Yes. Jhūtha jagat bhulay. So if you bluff, that " You make this, and you become within six month God, and you give me my fees," oh, they will be agreeable: "Yes, you take this fees, and I shall become within six months God." No. These things will not solve your problems. If you want actually to solve the problems of life in this age, then you have to take to this process of kirtana. That is the recommendation, kirtana. In this age, Kali-yuga: kalau nasty eva, nasty eva, nasty eva gathir anyatha

You cannot execute any other process of self-realization or perfection of life except this: harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam. The same thing: sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. Visnu and Hari, the same thing. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ, and harer nama eva kevalam. You will find in Vedic literature all the symmetries. There is no difference of opinion.

So this kirtana, our subject matter, is essential in this age. In all sastras, all Vedic literature, it is confirmed, kalau tad dhari-kirtanat, krte yad dhyayato visnum [SB 12.3.52] Meditation of the Supreme Absolute Truth, Visnu. The same Visnu, not anything else. Krte yad dhyayato visnum. Dhyana avasthita. Dhyana, dhyana means "meditation."

Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena…yoginaḥ. So dhyana, this dhyana, this meditation process, was possible in krte, in the Satya-yuga-now it is not possible-when people used to live for many, many years. But nowadays will not believe, but sometimes there was, when people used to live for one hundred thousands of years.

At that time it is called Satya-yuga, and then meditation was possible at that time, because it takes them very, very long time. Just like Valmiki Muni. Valmiki Muni, he meditated for sixty thousands of years. So that is a long-term process, and it is not possible to execute in this age. If you make one farce, that is another thing. But actually if you want to meditate, it takes a very, very long time to make perfection.

So,

And in the next age by performing various kinds of sacrifices, ritualistic sacrifices, as recommended in the Vedas, that was possible. And dvapare paricaryayam, the Dvapara-yuga, next age, by temple worship, paricarya. Kalau tad dhari-kirtanat [SB 12.3.52]. The same result you can achieve by this process, hari-kirtana. Not other kirtana. Because this hari-kirtana was inaugurated, started… Of course, hari-kirtana is there always, but officially it was started five hundred years ago, from Bengal, by Lord Caitanya.

So in Bengal there is a competition between the Vaisnavas and the saktas. The saktas also introduced a certain type of kirtana, which is called kali-kirtana. But according to sastra, there is no recommendation of kali-kirtana. Kirtana means hari-kirtana. Kirtana means visnu-kirtana, no other kirtana. You cannot say, "You are Vaisnava; you can perform hari-kirtana.

I shall perform siva-kirtana or devi-kirtana or ganesa-kirtana."No. Sastra does not say any other kirtana. Sastra says hari-kirtana. Kirtana means hari-kirtana, hari-kirtanat. Similarly, in the Srimad-Bhagavatam also it is said that krsna-kirtana. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the Twelfth Canto, you will find Sukadeva Goswami says,

Specifically mentions,

If one simply takes to this kirtana process, krsna-kirtana, kirtanad eva, "only." This eva, this word is used to stress "only."Kirtanad eva krsnasya. Just like harer nama eva, eva means "only."

So you will find everywhere. So this simple process, krsna-kirtana: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Sixteen words. Actually there are three words, Hare, Krsna, Rama, but they are very nicely arranged for chanting. So everyone can take and chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, and that is practically proved. Since we have started this movement in the Western countries, all foreigners-Europeans, Americans, the Africans, the Egyptians, the Japanese-everyone is chanting.

There is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. They are chanting very gladly, and they are getting the result. So what is the difficulty? We are distributing it without any charges, and it is very simple, and simply by chanting you realize yourself, self-realization, God realization. And when there is self-realization, God realization, then there is this nature's realization also, tasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti.

Just like if you try to learn one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten-nine and zero; one is already there-then your all whole arithmetic is studied. This ten figures. Because arithmetic means simply changing this place of one, two, three, four, five, six, eight, nine, that's all. Similarly, if you simply study Krsna, then your all knowledge is perfect. You don't require any other endeavor to exert, to understand. Tasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. And that Krsna can be understood simply by chanting this mantra, Hare Krsna.

So why don't you take this opportunity-the great opportunity offered to the human society. It is very scientific, authoritative, old, purana. It is not that it is something concocted, introduced, say, for three or four years. No, don't think. Just like I have several time repeated this Krsna philosophy. Krsna Himself says,

This is avyayam yoga. Avyayam means inexhaustive, indestructive, never lost, never destroyed. It may be covered for the time being, but it is never destroyed; therefore it is called avyaya. Avyaya means "inexhaustible," just like vyayaḥ means "expenditure." Just like you have got hundred pounds. Hundred, if it is spent one after another, then one day it comes to zero. That is bought, expended. But this is not that. If you cultivate this knowledge, Krsna consciousness, it will increase.

That is the recommendation by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu: anandambudhi-vardhanam. Ananda means "pleasure," "transcendental bliss" and ambudhi, ambudhi means "ocean." In the material world you have seen the ocean, but it does not increase; but here, if you culture this Krsna consciousness, your transcendental bliss will simply increase, anandambudhi-vardhanam. And the process is… I shall always remind you that the process is very simple. Anyone can chant, anywhere, without any tax, without any loss; but the gain is very great.

So, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu explains about this kirtana movement…

[break] …called Siksastaka. Siksa means "instruction," and astaka means "eight." He has given us eight verses to understand this Krsna consciousness movement, and I shall try to explain. Please hear attentively. The first instruction is, the Lord says, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12].

I think I explained this several times, again, repeatedly. Just like we chant Hare Krsna repeatedly; there is no, I mean to say, tiresomeness. These boys, they can chant Hare Krsna mantra twenty-four hours, they will never get tired.

They will dance and they will chant. And you also, you try it. You will never get tired, because it is not material. In the material world, if you chant anything, any favorite name, for three, four or ten times, you will get tired. Yes, that's a fact. But because it is not material, if you chant this Hare Krsna mantra, you will never get tired.

The more you chant, your heart will be cleansed from all material dirty things. Ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam [Cc Antya 20.12]. And the problems of your life within this material world… These are simple words, but it requires lots of explanation.

What is the problem of our life? That you do not know. The modern education never gives enlightenment what is the problem of life. That is indicated in the Bhagavad-gita, that those who are educated, advancing in knowledge, they should know what is the problem of life. The problem of life is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

One should always feel the inconvenience of taking birth, janma; mrtyu, inconvenience of death; jara, inconvenience of old age; and inconvenience of disease. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. So nobody is taking care. When one day they are diseased, they think, "All right. I am diseased. Let me go to the doctor, and he will give me some medicine. It will be cured."

But he does not take seriously, "But I did not want this disease. Why this disease is there? It is not possible to make me free from the disease?" He never thinks. That means the intelligence is very low grade, just like animal. Animal, it is suffering, but it has no sense. It is brought before the slaughterhouse.

If the animal is seeing that another animal is being slaughtered before him, but still he is satisfied with a morsel of grass. He'll stand there eating the grass. This is animal life. He does not know that "Next moment my turn. I shall be slaughtered." I have seen it. In a Kali temple I have seen the goats are sacrificed. So one goat is already there for being sacrificed; another goat is very happy eating grass. That's all.

So similarly, Maharaja Pariksit, er, Maharaja Yudhisthira was asked by Yamaraja, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world? Can you explain?" So he explained, "Yes. What is that?"Ahany ahani lokani gacchanti yama-mandiram: "Every moment we see that our friends, our relatives, our fathers, our family members, our he or she died," sesaḥ sthitam icchanti, "but the others, they are thinking, 'I shall live for ever.' He never thinks that 'I shall die.' He is satisfied."

The same animal, he never thinks that "At the next moment I will be slaughtered." He is satisfied with the grass, that's all. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam [Hitopadesa].

He is satisfied with the sense gratification. He does not know that "I am also going to die. My father has died, my mother has died, my grandfather has died, he has died, she has died-so I have to die. Then what is after death? Oh, no." So this is the problem, but they do not take it seriously. But Bhagavad-gita indicates,

That is real education. That is real education, to see that "I do not want to die. Why death comes?" That is real inquiry. "I do not want to become old man. Why old age comes upon me?" But they do not take it seriously. But Bhagavad-gita says that this is the process. So we have got problems, many problems, but this is the sum and substance of all problems,

In order to solve the problems of your life, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam [Cc Antya 20.12]. Immediately, the blazing fire of problematic life is extinguished. As soon as your heart is cleansed by chanting this Hare Krsna mantra, the blazing fire of material existence immediately… How it is immediately extinguished? Because cleansing of heart means you understand that "I do not belong to this material world."Brahma-bhūta [Bg 18.54].

That is ceto-darpana. Now I am identifying with this material world: "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," because I am identifying with this material world. But if you chant this Hare Krsna mantra, you will realize that you are not…, you are not this body. You do not belong to this material body or this material world, but you are spirit soul. You are part and parcel of the Supreme.

You are eternally related with Him. You have nothing to do with this material world. This is called liberation, knowledge. If I haven't got to do anything with this material world, then that is liber… This knowledge, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannatma [Bg 18.54]. Then I have no duty. Actually I have no duty. Because now I am identifying my existence, this body, with this material world, I have got so many duties.

So Bhagavata therefore says that so long there is no self-realization, we have so many duties and debts also, devarsi-bhūtaptam nrnam pitṝnam [SB 11.5.41]. We are debted to the demigods. Demigods means… Don't think it is fictitious; it is fact. Demigods we accept just like the sun, moon, the air. They are all demigods. Just like you have got director of a department. Similarly, for heating department the sun god is there; for air department the Varuna is there.

Similarly, there are departmental demigods. In the Vedas they are stated, they are controlling deities, so you cannot neglect them. Devas, rsis. Rsi means the great sages, philosophers, who have given us the knowledge. You are debted to them. And bhūta, ordinary living entities. So there…, we are debtor. As soon as we take birth anywhere, we are debtor to so many things. But it is impossible to liquidate all these debts.

Therefore sastra recommends,

"My dear King, anyone who has taken shelter to the lotus feet of Mukunda," saranyam, "who is worthy." We take shelter. We take shelter of an officer. We take shelter of a physician. We take shelter of a lawyer when you are in trouble. We take shelter. Without shelter we are not existing, because the three-fold miseries are there: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. We have to take shelter. But the real shelter is Krsna. Therefore Krsna says that,

"If you take shelter unto Me, you haven't got take shelter of so many things." So one does, sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.3]. So this stage they taking shelter of Krsna, the beginning is this chanting and hearing. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. So our fervent request, humble request, to everyone who is present here and who is not present here, that is our very, very humble submission: padayor nipatya krtva ca aham kaku-satam bravimi [Caitanya-candramrta]. "I am flattering you. I am just falling down unto your feet. Please accept this," he sadhavaḥ.

This is a verse by Prabhodananda Sarasvati, a great devotee of Lord Caitanya. He submitted this verse, that dante nidhaya trnakam padayor nipatya: "My dear sir, I have taken a grass in my mouth, and I am falling down on your feet, and I am flattering you hundreds of ways,"aham bravimi, "I am submitting something to you."

So those who are going to preach this philosophy, they have to adopt this means. Humbly, most humbly, submissive, padayor nipatya krtva ca kaku-satam aham bravimi. He sadhavaḥ: "You are very nice man. You are very honest man, sadhu." Sakalam eva vihaya dūrat! "You give up all these nonsense things! Any nonsense, give up. Simply,"sakalam eva vihaya dūrat caitanya-candra-carane kurutanuragam, "simply you submit unto the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya and chant Hare Krsna." Thank you very much.

Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada! [devotee offer obeisances]

Prabhupada: Any questions?

Tamal Krsna: [addressing audience] If you would like to ask, you may ask any questions of Prabhupada that you may have to ask. Just please stand up and ask him; that is very nice.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Guest: Why is it that you have not approached the politicians of your own country, Mrs. Gandhi, and [indistinct], and told them of the mantra, and asked them to implement sahkirtana throughout India and throughout the Eastern world before coming to the Western world?

Prabhupada: Because you are a great politician; therefore I have approached you. [laughter] Is that all right? Do you think [laughing] that politicians will be able to help us? Yes. So we…, I also approached Gandhi. I approached Mahatma Gandhi, that "Mahatmaji, you have got some influence over the world. Now we have got svaraja, independence. Now you give up politics. You preach Bhagavad-gita.

Wherever you go, you take this Bhagavad-gita, and your picture is there. Now you take seriously Bhagavad-gita and you preach." You see? But the disease is so strong that even Mahatma Gandhi, in his later days, he was not liked by his disciples like Patel and Jawaharlal Nehru. He was interfering, and-it is a great story-and perhaps he was killed for that purpose. So the material attachment is so strong that even Mahatma Gandhi could not give up politics, and he died for it. That's all.

So this Krsna consciousness movement is for everyone, but it is for the fortunate person. Yesam tv anta-gatam papam. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that one who has been freed, anta-gatam, "ended,"yesam tv anta-gatam papam, "sinful life":

And one who is simply engaging in pious activities. So, te dvandva-moha-nirmukta: he can become freed from all kinds of dualities and engage himself in Krsna consciousness. He can. So it is very difficult also to accept this Krsna consciousness, because this is the condition. Yesam tv anta-gatam papam. Papam means… What do you mean by papam? Sin. Just like what is criminality?

Criminality means disobedience of the state law. Just like even if you do not know what is the regulation. Just like in America, the cars are driven on the right side; here on the left side. So even without knowing that cars are to be driven on the left side, you drive on the right, you become a criminal-knowingly or unknowingly.

Actually, we commit sins by ignorance. So it does not mean a sinful man is always sinful knowingly. No-unknowingly. Similarly, people are engaged in so many humanitarian works, so-called humanitarian work, but they do not know that they are engaged in sinful activities. They do not know. They do not know that they are engaged in sinful activities. Anything in the karma jagat is sinful. That is… It is not that I am manufacturing.

You see in the Bhagavad-gita: yajnarthe karmanaḥ anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9]. Simply you can act for yajna, or Visnu. Otherwise you are criminal. That's all. Either you become mahatma, this atma, that atma, if you do not act for Visnu, or yajna, you are criminal. Therefore Krsna says, yesam tv anta-gatam papam [Bg 7.28].

So this Krsna consciousness movement is not easy also. It's very difficult. But it has been made easy by the grace of Lord Caitanya. He has simply given us this chanting process: "You chant." So any fortunate man who takes this seriously, he becomes freed from all sinful reaction and takes Krsna consciousness seriously.

Devotee: Haribol.

Lady guest: You said in this Krsna consciousness [indistinct] chant the mantra, and also that you can be [indistinct] fallen in this material world. Well, don't you think that you're mixing emotional…, people being emotionally aroused and being spiritually aroused?

Prabhupada: For a Krsna conscious person there is no material world. Do you follow? For a Krsna conscious person there is no material world.

Lady guest: Why is there this material world then?

Prabhupada: Yes, that you have to understand.

Lady guest: But why?

Prabhupada: Yes, I will say you. I will say you. For a Krsna conscious person-try to understand me-actually there is no material world. Just like the sky. The sky is one. There is no second sky. But when the sky is covered, that is called clouded sky. Try to understand me. The sky is one, but somehow or other, when the sky is clouded, it is called clouded sky, and you cannot see the sun. Similarly, there is no material things. Īsavasyam idam sarvam .

But when you forget Krsna, that is material world. When you forget. Just like when you forget your state laws you are criminal. Otherwise there is no criminality. So this forgetfulness without Krsna consciousness means material life and sinful life, and with Krsna consciousness means there is no material life, there is no sinful life.

Lady guest: Well if everybody, when they come to the material world, and they all join your religion…

Prabhupada: Material world means forgetful of Krsna consciousness, that's all.

Lady guest: What happens to all the suffering, [indistinct] suffering because it's part of the material world.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Tamal Krsna: She says what about all the suffering. If everybody sings and dances, what about all people who are suffering?

Prabhupada: Those who are singing and dancing, they are not suffering. You may be suffering. That's all. They are not suffering.

Lady guest: Well what do you do about the suffering?

Prabhupada: No. Nobody is suffering in Krsna consciousness.

Lady guest: What about us then?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Lady guest: Well you are not suffering, but what about the other people?

Prabhupada: Other people, let them take to Krsna consciousness, that's all.

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupada: Why they are suffering? Let them take to Krsna consciousness. We are canvassing for that. Why don't you take it?

Devotee: Is there anything you want, materially?

Prabhupada: The only thing is forgetful of Krsna consciousness, that's all.

Lady guest: Is the material world beautiful?

Prabhupada: No, I told you. Just try to understand. Material world means forgetfulness of Krsna consciousness. That's all.

Lady guest: No, Krsna consciousness can come in… [break]

Prabhupada: Where is material world? You do not understand what I explained. Actually there is no material world. When you are in forgetfulness of Krsna that is material world.

Guest: Krsna consciousness makes the material world more wonderful. Why God created the material world in the first place?

Prabhupada: You answer.

Tamal Krsna: Try to understand what Prabhupada is trying to explain is simply that everything to a personalized being everything is spiritual but it is due to forgetfulness that things become material. Just like the rays of sunshine but to those people clouds are up there it seem that the sun is not shinning but factually the sun is always shinning.

Similarly God or Krsna, He is always there and to a person who chants the mantra and takes to spiritual understanding he erases the dust or the clouds away so that he can always see Krsna and his life becomes perfect and happy. The reason that it appears to you that there is a material world is simply because the clouds are in front of you. The material consciousness is still there. It is something that takes chanting, if you start chanting you will begin to see that the dust will disappear. The misery, the material consciousness will go the more you chant.

Guest: But [Indistinct.]

Tamal Krsna: No. Try and understand, try and understand that the point is not that there is not physical. There is physical, there is form but there is spiritual form and material form. You should understand that we do not say that there is no form. We say there is form but we say that form is spiritual, you see and it only becomes material when you forget Krsna and you use the form to satisfy yourself.

Just like this microphone that Prabhupada is using it is spiritual because it is being used to glorify Krsna but it can become material if it is used simply for someone's own sense gratification. Everything is spiritual when it is used in the service of God, or Krsna but it becomes material when it is simply used to satisfy your body or your mind.

Guest: Yes, I see that. So you are saying that material things are spiritual really.

Tamal Krsna: Yes but it is misused. Everything has become misused in this world so now it has become material. When it is properly used again it will regain its original spiritual position.

Guest: [Indistinct]

Tamal Krsna: If the use of each thing must be used spiritually for Krsna.

Guest: So it still exist in a spiritual form to us because that's how we see it?

Tamal Krsna: Yes. The way to help people who are miserable is to teach them who they are so that they will understand who they are and who God is and what their relationship with the Supreme is then he will be happy, not simply by beating their body.

Guest: Yes sure but [indistinct].

Tamal Krsna: Yes that is what Prabhupada is explaining. We are spirit soul. We are servants of God, parts and parcel of God. We are spiritual by nature but we have forgotten our original position and we think now that we are material or this body. Therefore we are unhappy because we only try and satisfy our bodies. So if we will remember that we are spiritual then we will learn to satisfy our soul. That is understanding who Krsna is.

Guest: [indistinct] spiritual?

Tamal Krsna: Yes then it becomes spiritual once again.

Question: [indistinct]….

Prabhupada: What is that?

Tamal Krsna: She says what will happen if she leaves here now and sings and dances on her way home, some policeman will her see her and think that she is mad and will take her and lock her up.

Prabhupada: So you better dance with us. [Laughter.] The Policeman will not touch you. You dance with us.

Guest: I feel, I mean [indistinct] with the area in which I [indistinct] and several of the people [indistinct]. They will not consider [indistinct] spiritual, [indistinct] you have taken on Hindu religion [indistinct] ignoring they are material parts of the world [indistinct]…….

Tamal Krsna: Excuse me Maam, then what you should do the best thing if you are interested in chanting this mantra is that you don't need to dance. Like for instance when we come here sometimes we are chanting quietly to ourselves so that it does not appear, perhaps it will appear strange if we dance.

And then when we come into our temple or into a hall such as this then we dance where it would not be considered too much strange. But it is very strange on your way home when you are in your neighborhood. Then you simply chant softly to yourself and no one will take offense.

Guest: ….take in to account the material world.

Tamal Krsna: No, ma'am. I am simply saying that if you feel that you need to take into account then you can do so but just as we chant in the middle of a street day in and day out and people are very much happy to see us and the police they go, "Oh Hare Krsna." So they do not think that we are mad at all. In fact. Many people say, "What are you doing?"

And when we explain we are chanting Hare Krsna and preaching Krsna consciousness to all mankind they say, "That is very nice. Where is your temple so that we may come and find out more?" So, on the contrary neither do they think we are mad but they are interested to find out more. And I think if you would take to this you will find out that yes people will ask you what you are doing but if you have the answers, if you study carefully our philosophy they will be very much convinced and impressed by your condition.

Guest: Anyway, why are you afraid of the chanting Hare Krsna in this way even if you are taken to prison. What does it matter? Jesus Christ prayed to his Lord prayed to his God and he was crucified. He was killed for it. What is there to [indistinct]? How many followers has he got? [indistinct]

Tamal Krsna: Yes but you needn't be killed for it simply dancing and singing.

Guest: …you will have all the followers. You will get a reward for it. If you are really convinced about Hare Krsna, really convinced go and do what you like.

Prabhupada: So you can chant peacefully now.

Guest: [Indistinct.] [break]

[Kirtan by Yamuna dasi begins.] [break]

Tamal Krsna: So you are all very kind for coming here today. And it is very nice that you have come. Because just see. There are so many millions of people living in this big city but only twenty-five of all have come. But, in Krsna consciousness just one sincere person will come forward and take fully the learning about Krsna then we can understand….. [indistinct]

[aside conversation between Prabhupada and Yamuna]

He will benefit so many millions of people thoughout the world. So in two weeks from today on the fourteenth. On the fourteenth of this month we will be officially opening our Radha Krsna Temple on 7 Bury Place. And at that time the Deities with be installed in our Temple and there will be big feasting all day long. And we are inviting all of you to come at that time to join with us. For the most fourtunate celebration.

14th, of December. And, I must say we have still much to do in our temple and it is very much at the mercy of Krsna that we will get everything done. And similarly we have many temples throughout the world and we wish to open many others. And because all of you are so sincere that you have come here today I am going to put this big request upon you all. If there was more of you then it would be easier but now, very direct upon twenty five of you. You must come forward if you can to help us in this Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: People like this... [side coversation with Yamuna] there is no more, there is no more?

Tamal Krsna: Just today I was told that if a person is very poor and takes to this Krsna consciousness there is a chance that he might fall away. And if a person is very weathy and take to this Krsna consciousness there is a chance that he may fall away. But, if a person is both happy, has the money and takes to Krsna consciousness there is a good chance he will last and never fall. So all of you seem very happy people and you also seem so very, very wealthy people. Therefore I would like to put the following request upon you. That you will all take part in this Krsna consciousness at this time.

I will come around and I'm asking each of you to give large sum, a donation of [indistinct] one pound. And you may say that, that is very great and many time they come in here and this. But, I'll state to you that we have so many temples and we are teaching fifty of people to become God consciousness in this age. Once you people we are all the people teaching so simply by chanting Hare Krsna and we need your help.

We need the financial support, so please I'll come around and see if you cannot give ten shillings to one pound at this time which will help us so much in constructing a very beautiful temple that will be open to the public 24 hours every day. So please take this chance to take an active part in our Krsna consciousness movement it is for all people after all so we wish you to take part in it.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much.

[aside conversation in English and Hindi]

Guest: Can I come some time?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: In the evening.

Prabhupada: Come after five. [aside conversation with Indian man] [end]