Conversation in Hindi – April 6, 1976, Vṛndāvana

Devotee: [annoucing] [Transl. First of all I offer my humble obeisances to my guru.]

Pusta Krsna: Outside the St. Francis in Vrndavana, during lunchtime.

Indian man: [Transl. We don't want to quarrel with anybody in Vrndavana dhama. To worship the Supreme Lord devotess come here and spoil things. But from our childhood we are attached to our own guruji. So it is not possible to...] [indistinct]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That's not a fact. tasmat sastram pramanam te [Bg 16.24]]

Indian man: [Transl. It will create quarrel between each other.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What quarrel?]

Indian man: [Transl. That I cannot tell you.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. The scriptural evidence is there.]

Indian man: [Transl. It is not a question of scriptural evidence. This disciple of yours went to Karapatriji. Ask him what sloka he quoted.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What did you say?]

Yasomatinandana: [Transl. I just told him that Naradaji instructs Yudhisthira Maharaja that if the qualities of a particular varna are foung in a person belonging to another varna then he is to accepted as belonging to that particular varna. If sūdra-qualities are found in a brahmana then he is a sūdra, not a Brahmana. This you had spoken to me. It is the 35th verse of the seventh canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. He said that there are three types of lions. The first type of lion is the real lion. The second type of lion is a lion-like man. And the third type of lion is a drawing of a lion. Similarly, the word is the same but there is difference. So the statement has…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. Only he understood the difference and none else? Why didn't you say that only you know the difference? Others like Sridhara Svami, Viraraghava acarya, Visvanatha Cakravarti, none else could understand the difference, only you?]

Yasomatinandana: [Transl. His two or three disciples were there and they did not allow me to speak saying "He is too big a personality and we are too tiny. Don't talk more."]

Indian man: [Transl. In India there are always differences of opinion. It is nothing new.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Why difference? Whatever scriptural evidence is there….]

Indian man: [Transl. Even in our society there are differences of opinion between sannyasis. In Mahaprabhu sampradaya, in Ramanuja sampradaya, everywhere there is conflict of opinions.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Mutual disagreement might be but why scriptural disagreement?]

Indian man: [Transl. They even say that what we speak is sastra. Recently in Haridvara some acarya, head from Madhva sampradaya came and said that he would give discourse on sastra on the condition that the audience should pay him five thousand rupees. These things go on. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam [Bg 10.41] Wherever there is vibhūti there is the presence of God. So all of you are oppulent, my obeisances to you all. [sarcastically]

Yasomatinandana: [Transl. I told him that may be there is 1 fault, but you ignore 999 qualities. You pick the fault and reject them. It's possible that their behaviour is different than that of yours, but you can clearly see how this movement is being spread all over the world.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What we are preaching is not our own statements. Big, big acaryas like Sridhara Svami, Viraraghava acarya, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Jiva Gosvami, big, big acaryas have written these things in their literatures. They didn't say that there are three kinds of lions. One lion is my gurūji and another lion is your gurūji. They didn't say that.Our point is that somehow things are going on no matter how many lions are out there. We don't care. And things will go on. This is the very reason for India's present pathetic condition. Artificially making some issue out of nothing. Vaisnnave jati buddhi, is according to sastra, hellish. Arcye, arcye visnau sila-dhir. [Padma Purana] Just like people from all over the world come here to have darsana of the Supreme Lord's Deity form. And if someone comes and says "This is stone only. People are so foolish that they come to take darsana." They say like that. Followers of Arya samaja say like that.]

Indian man: [Transl. We believe that as soon as prana-pratistha: invoking life in the Deity is done the Supreme Lord is directly present.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. If by prana-pratistha the stone can become God then can't sūdras become brahmanas by prana-pratistha? Prana-pratistha is performed on the stone and for a living person vaisnava-pratistha is not possible. Just see what kind of arguement? Are these valid arguments? In stone prana-pratistha is possible, but in a living person prana-pratistha is not possible. As if he is worse than the stone. Is that a reasonable consideration?] If you can give life to a stone then you cannot give Krsna-bhakti to a living being?

Indian man: [Transl. No one can check Krsna-bhakti.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Then what remains?]

Indian man: [Transl. Bhakti is a far superior thing.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Your argument is like "One becomes a Krsna bhakta and at the same time remains a sūdra."]

Indian man: [Transl. They say…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, they don't say, you say.]

Indian man: [Transl. In the book Bhaktamala it is stated that Rohidasa was a great devotee, but was a cobbler.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Forget Rohidasa, we have our Haridasa Thakura. He was a Mohammdan.]

Indian man: [Transl. Yavana Haridasa. He was also delivered.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. Advaita Acarya, the then president of the brahmana community of Santipur, selected him to be the first recipient of the sraddha offering ceremony. So Haridasa Thakura humbly replied "Advaita prabhu, you are respecting me and placing me in a highly exalted position. That you are offering me the sraddha-patra: the first plate of prasada from the sraddha ceremony , for this you will be in great trouble in the society." So He challanged that "let any brahmana come forward and argue with Me. I know that by feeding you I would be receiving the benefit of feeding one thousand brahmanas." Was Haridasa a Mohammedan then? Or was Advaita prabhu a fool? Advaita Acarya was the president of the brahmana community. This was His verdict. He said, "Haridasa Thakura, by feeding you one receives more benefit than feeding one thousand brahmanas." But he was a Muslim by caste. He himself admitted "Maharaja, you are elevating me to such a high position, you are offering the sraddha-patra to me first, but you will be condemned for this in the society." So He said "let anyone dare to come and talk to me. I will prove that the benefit of feeding you is more than feeding one thousand brahmanas." Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took Haridasa's dead body and put into Samadhi and chanted in ecstasy. So we have to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu's consideration. He Himself said,

This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Whether one is a brahmana or a sūdra, whether he is a grhastha or a sannyasi, if he knows the science of Krsna then he is guru. Kiba vipra kiba sūdra nyasi kene naya, therefore just to set an example Caitanya Mahaprabhu awarded the title 'Namacarya' to Haridasa Thakura. He was the acarya for holy name. The Supreme Lord descended to spread the holy name, but He Himself did not become the acarya. He made Haridasa Thakura the namacarya. Therefore we glorify him, "Namacarya Srila Haridasa Thakura ki jaya." These considerations are there in India, but are being kept locked. Now between India and ….]

Indian man: [Transl. Now it appears like a miracle….]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What's miracle? Caitanya Mahaprabhu had already predicted,

"In every town and village on this earth the glories of My name will be chanted."

Indian man: [Transl. Maharaja, I haven't seen those times with my own eyes. So I don't know. What I have seen in front of me that I am telling.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. These are all written in the books. It's all there in the sastra.]

Indian man: [Transl. I am not saying about the sastra.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. The secret is…since you are saying all this, you are saying, hence I say this, I never said this before, the secret is that I was always thinking. When my Guru Maharaja asked me to preach in the Western countries in English, I was always thinking how these people will accept it? As soon as I will say you give up illicit sex, meat eating, gambling, who will accept it? This actually I was thinking. But I had a firm faith that since Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said that My name will be preached all over the world, so how can it be false? That was my conviction. Therefore at the age of seventy, in Vrndavana, my Guru Maharaja had ordered me, Caitanya Mahaprabhu has predicted, so I decided let me try once.]

Indian man: [Transl. Trying. You are still trying.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. And I have been successful only by their blessings.]

Indian man: [Transl. That's true.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I was hopeless. How is it possible?]

Indian man: [Transl. You may say, I was hopeless, but your Guru Maharaja dreamt about it.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. This firm belief. The firm belief was that since Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said, it's definitely going to happen. Take a chance.]

Indian man: [Transl. He used your body as an instrument. This is a fact.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. But I always had unshakable faith that since Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said that the whole world will take it, though I was hopeless, I thought let me try once.]

Indian man: [Transl. One time you were telling me that for one full year you couldn't do anything there. No success. Your one year…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. My strong faith was as it is stated in the Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, sraddha'-sabde-visvasa kahe sudrḍha niscaya, sraddha refers to firm conviction and confidence. Krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. [Cc Madhya 22.62] That much full faith I had. If you want to know the secret of my success, this is it. Why wouldn't it happen? Did Caitanya Mahaprabhu say something useless?]

Indian man: [Transl. My feeling is that you must have been inspired from within.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. Inspiration.]

Indian man: [Transl. That's what we say. Yesterday I went to Govardhana at Gaya Prasada Maharaji's place and we were talking about you. He too agreed that you are a very great vibhūti. I told him so many vaisnavas have come and all that. So he said that nobody became successful. Even Maharishi Mahesh Yogi failed. Many persons tried but only you became successful. None else succeeded.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That's a fact.]

Indian man: [Transl. Mahesh Yogi's followers came here one time from Rishikesh and I told them…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. This Mahesh yogi, his personal secretary who lived with him always, once asked him "Maharaja, I want Bhagavan." So replied, if you want Bhagavan then you go to Bhakti Vedanta Svami. He said that.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Maharajaji, he had a personal legal advisor, He left him and came to me.]

Indian man: [Transl. We heard the secret of Mahesh Yogi from someone. He was a disciple of Sahkaracarya's follower. He was Vaisya by caste. Later he separately and made his own mission. It's only business there and nothing else.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. His philosophy is…These Europeans and Americans are very much fond of yoga and things like that. And these people go to their countries and cheat them. Those that are cheated they never go back to him. This is his philosophy. Because these fools are cheated by the so called yoga, should we just cheat them and make some money? This is the position.]

Indian man: [Transl. I went to Haridvara and saw many foreigners as well as Indians in Svargasrama. Mr. Somani was there. He said to him, teach us some yoga so that we may have peace of mind. So he said, sit down. And we sat down. Nothing special about him. He did say some good things for a very short time. It was summer and the whole place was crowded. I heard he fought with his own guru and poisoned him. There was a big group behind this. When he died then he took charge of the whole thing.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. First he goes to Sahkaracaryas then later he becomes their enemy.]

Indian man: [Transl. He was not successful.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Maharaja, there are two amazing histories of two communities. One is Musselmans and the other is Christians. The Musselmans behaved very badly with us. The Christians were always after money. And you flowed the Ganges upside down. You not only brought money but also converted them to Hindus with shaved heads. [laughter] You did the opposite.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I gave initiation to Mussalman. Yesterday.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Musselmans are also in your society.]

Indian man: [Transl. Yesterday? Here? Really? When they are converted the Hindus become delighted.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That too from Iran.]

Indian man: [Transl. You said you had one Svami whose name was Ayatulla…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. He is there.]

Indian man: [Transl. Maharajaji, I read some history about the…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. In Hyderabad there is one Mayavadi Svami. He writes "Jagadguru" before his name. So some people of Hyderabad challenged him that you write your name Jagadguru, but have you ever seen the jagat: the whole world? Have you ever travelled outside India? Then why do you write Jagadguru?]

Indian man (2): [Transl. He is right.]

Indian man: [Transl. There was one man here I wouldn't quote his name, he also used to write "Mahamanḍalesvara": a leader of a religious province, before his name. So one officer approached him and asked how dare he uses the title. So the man plainly replied "Sir, no big deal. Printing press is there. I just threw ten rupees and printed some pamphlets and letterheads." [laughter] This is going on. The officer told him "Maharaja, you are directly a miracle! This is not good at all.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Actually our philosophy is not to convert someone as Hindu or as Mussalman. That is not our philosophy.]

Indian man: [Transl. They are becoming automatically.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. See for example, when someone asks me that can one attain God from Christian religion? I say, why not? You follow correctly what Christianity says. Now Jesus Christ said "Thou shall not kill." But you are very expert in killing. So how you are…What kind of Christian you are?]

Indian man: [Transl. Right. You are absolutely right.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. If one is genuinely a Christian then he too can go back to Godhead. If a Mussalman properly follows the techings of Mohammed… Because they are all Saktyavesa-avataras: empowered incarnations, they preached the name of God to so many persons. He made the Musselmans who abominally misbehave with their own mother, bow down their heads and offer prayers to God in the Mosque five times a day. Is that an ordinary task?]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Not an easy job.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. So according to place, time and candidate some differences will always be there. That you cannot remove. But how far a preacher can explain about God to these types of people? This should be praised. As far as the Christians are concerned, Jesus Christ gave them the 10 Commandments, and the first is thou shall not kill. And after hearing all that the first thing they did was to kill him. Now imagine what kind people they were. He prohibited them. Don't kill. And they decided to kill him first.]

Indian man: [Transl. Maharaja, once the chief of the Ford company came to meet you. What did you discuss with him?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. His wish is that here religion is already present, therefore you should go to those places where there is no religion, and preach. So I indirectly told him that here also there is no religion. Because, Christ says, thou shall not kill. And everyone kills. So where is religion here? He told me as a devotee that religion is already here in India. There is no need to preach here. Go where there is no religion.]

Indian man: [Transl. Now, Maharaja, there is no complaint that religion is absent here. Since the Musselmans…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. I told him that here also no religion. Where is religion here?]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Are Musselmans in majority in religion? They are the first.]

Indian: No. First Christian, second Mussalman, third Hindu. I mean fourth Hindu ...

Prabhupada: The fourth who?

Indian (2): Fourth Hindu, Maharaja. First Christian, second Mohammedan, third Buddhist. Fourth Hindu.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Okay then.]

Indian man: [Transl. Maharaja, we are grateful to you for coming over here.]

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] [end]