Lunch Engagement – August 8, 1971, London

710808LE-LONDON [50:03 Minutes]

By pleasing Visnu, one can immediately become liberated

Devotee: [introducing tape] Lunch engagement, 8th August, London.

Prabhupada:

In the Visnu Purana there is a statement that a person who is executing properly the rules and regulation of varna and asrama… According to the Vedic system, there are four varnas.

[aside:] Yes, it can be closed.

Four social order and four spiritual order. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sūdra, this is social order. And brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa, spiritual orders. Asrama, brahmacari asrama. Asrama means cultivation of spiritual life in a suitable position. One may remain a brahmacari or he become a grhastha, householder, living with wife, children, family. Then vanaprastha, then sannyasa.

So all these processes are meant for pleasing Visnu, Lord Visnu. Varnasramacaravata. By executing this varnasrama system one can please the Supreme Personality of Visnu. And nanyat tat-tosa-karanam: He is very much pleased [by] one who executes all.

And by pleasing Visnu, one can immediately become liberated. There are different processes of liberation: severe austerity, penances, practice of yoga, and many other processes. But if we can please Lord Visnu, then liberation can be immediately attained, even in this life. This is the sastric injunction.

Unfortunately, people do not know what is the Supreme. There is no education. Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Visnu has got many forms, diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya dipayate, visnutaya vibhati [Bs 5.46]. Visnu has many forms. Some of the forms are personal forms, and some of the forms are separated forms.

So far the living entities are concerned, they are separated forms of Visnu, vibhinnamsa. In the Varaha Purana you will find that eko bahu-syam: Visnu, Lord Visnu, has become many. Out of those many, those who are personal expansions, they are visnu-tattva. And those who are separated expansion, they are jiva-tattva.

So jivas, the living entities, they are part and parcel of Visnu. Krsna says… Krsna and Visnu are the same. Krsna is the original Visnu.

Krsna is the original Visnu. So we have to satisfy Visnu. That is the mission of life. The human form of life is a chance by going round the 8,400,000 species of life. This human form of life, by evolution we get the developed consciousness for understanding Visnu. Na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. Unfortunately, there is no educational system, and they do not know, people do not know that their real interest of life is to approach Visnu. Na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum. They do not know.

Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Persons, they are trying to be happy by this material civilization, bahir-artha. Those who are trying to get some profit out of material activities, they are called bahir-artha-maninaḥ. They do not know that self-interest is Visnu. They think, "My self-interest is to have some money" or a nice building or nice family, friends, like that. But this is called mohaḥ, illusion. Janasya moho 'yam aham mameti [SB 5.5.8].

So,

They are enamored by the external energy. This material world is manifestation of the external energy of Krsna, Visnu. Whatever we are seeing in this material world and whatever we are hearing about spiritual world, they are all manifestation of different energies of Visnu. Parasya brahmana saktis [Visnu Purana 1.22.53]. Just like the sun is manifested by light and heat, or the fire is manifested by light and heat, similarly Lord Visnu is manifested by His different energies, of which three are principal: external energy and spiritual energy and marginal energy.

This material manifestation is the action of the external energy, and spiritual world is manifestation of internal energy, and we, the living entities, we are manifestation of marginal energy-marginal because we are between the spiritual world and material world. If we like, we can live in the spiritual world, and if we like we can remain in the material world. We have got a little independence to make our choice.

So those who have chosen to live in this material world, they are called conditioned soul. Conditioned soul means they are living under many conditions of this material nature, and all these conditions are not very happy; they are all miserable, actually miserable condition. In Sanskrit it is called trikala yantra[?], threefold miseries.

So the living entities, because they are part and parcel of Visnu, so originally they are spiritual sparks, but somehow or other they have fallen down in this material world, just like a spark from the fire falls down on the ground and the brilliant, I mean to say, appearance of the spark becomes extinguished. As soon as a spark falls down from the fire it becomes extinguished, and if it falls on water it becomes too much extinguished, very moistened; very little chance of blazing. But if it falls down on dry grass, then that spark immediately creates some fire. And if the spark falls down simply on ground, it is via media between falling down on the water and dry grass.

So the spirit soul, when he comes down to this material world from Visnu fire, then it contacts three kinds of material modes of nature: sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they have got the brahminical qualification: satya sama damaḥ sucih titiksa arjava, jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.42]. And those who are in contact with the modes of passion, they are called ksatriyas. And those who are mixed up with passion and ignorance, they are called vaisyas. And those who are in completely darkness, they are called sūdras. And less than sūdra, they are called pancamas or canḍalas.

Therefore human civilization should be conducted how to bring people on the standard of modes of goodness, or on the brahminical platform. That should be the aim of human civilization. Because as soon as one comes to the brahminical platform, then everything becomes manifest, prakasa. Just like in sunshine you can see the whole city of London very nicely. In darkness you cannot see the same London city. Similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation and Lord Visnu we cannot see unless we come to the platform of goodness, sattva-guna.

So this Krsna consciousness movement is going on to bring a certain percentage of the human society to the platform of modes of goodness. In another place it is stated that the brahmanas, or those who are in the modes of goodness... When we speak of brahmana, it does not mean that a person born in brahmana family. We don't mean that. Brahmana means by qualifications.

Lord Krsna says that "The four divisions of social order is made by Me." How? Guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ: by division of quality and work. Not that because one is born in a brahmana family, as it is going on in India. No. In the sastra there is no such thing, janma-karma-vibhagasaḥ. No. Guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ.

In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna personally says, guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ. One must have the brahminical qualifications: truthful, clean, sattva, sauca. Sama-controlling the mind; damaḥ-controlling the senses; sattva sauca sama damah, titiksa-tolerance; arjava-simplicity; jnanam-full knowledge; vijnanam-practical application in life; jnanam, astikyam-and full faith in Vedas, that is called astikyam. This is brahma-karma svabhava-jam.

So the highest perfection of human life is to attain the brahminical qualification, then everything will be clearly understood: what is God, what I am, what is my relationship with God, what is this world. So many questions. But they are not interested. At the present moment people are not interested in these things, na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum. They are interested in animal propensities: how to eat nicely, how to sleep nicely, how to defend nicely, ahara, nidra, bhaya, and how to have sex life nicely. That's all.

But this is not the occupation of the human life; this is animal life. Simply to be busy with these four principles of life, ahara, nidra, bhaya, maithuna [Hitopadesa 25], that is animal propensities. A man has to go beyond that. Of course, so long we have got this body, the animal propensities will remain there, because the human being is defined in logic; a man is rationalist. I think this is not the proper definition. Rationality there is in animals also. The sastric definition, dharma, dharmena hinaḥ pasubhiḥ samanaḥ [Hitopadesa]. Therefore in every human society there is a certain type of religion, faith, and the purpose of religion is to understand Visnu, Krsna, the Supreme Lord.

So actually, at the present moment... Not only the present moment; this is the nature. People forget their relationship with Visnu, or Krsna, and they therefore drag on this material existence. Dragging on material existence means repeatedly take birth and death, and in different species of life. Not that after death there is any guarantee that we shall get human form of life. There is no guarantee. Any form. There are 8,400,000 species of life forms. We can get any form according to our work.

Now suppose this is the truth, and if this life I waste and next life I become a tree, standing up for seven thousand years, ten thousand years in one place. Is that very good proposal?

Guest: No. Ignorance.

Prabhupada: But people have taken this..., to this life. They do not know how by nature's way we are changing our body according to our karma, and there are so many different types of bodies, we can get any one of them. We can become god, we can become dog, according to our karma.

These are the statement in the Bhagavad-gita, that you can prepare your next life, you can promote yourself to the platform of the demigods like sun, moon, Brahma and others, Indra, Candra. There are many. Their duration of life..., you cannot calculate even their one day's duration. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

These things are there.

So you can elevate yourself to the platform of becoming demigods.

You can elevate yourself to the Pitrlokas or you can remain here in this planet. There are similar other planets also. Bhūloka, this is called Bhūloka, and above this there is Bhuvarloka, and above that there is Svargaloka, and above that there is Janaloka, and above that there is Satyaloka, and above that there is Brahmaloka. Seven upwards, seven downwards.

So these informations are there in the sastras, in the Vedas. Unfortunately, we are not interested in the sastric injunctions. We are simply interested how to eat nicely, how to sleep nicely, how to defend nicely and how to have sex life nicely. That's all. This is going on. But this is very dangerous civilization, andha yathandhair upaniyamanas [SB 7.5.31]. The example is just like a blind man is leading several other blind men. So what will be the result? All of them will fall down in the ditch.

So many leaders are coming, they are misguiding people and they are going away in due course of time, being completely under the stringent laws of material nature. 'Pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhaḥ. 'Pisa-tantryam, by the rope made by isa, or the Supreme Lord; uru-damni, very tightly knot.

So these things we do not know, although these informations are there in the sastras, in the Vedic literatures. But we are not interested. So it is not very good civilization. It is misleading civilization. Therefore there is need of this movement, Krsna consciousness. There is need in order to give right enlightenment to the people, because they do not know.

Na te viduḥ. Na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya. They are hoping something wonderful, which is impossible. What is that wonderful hope? They are trying to be happy within this material world. That's all. They do not know anything more. After death what is there, they do not care to know it. This is not very good civilization.

Therefore our… We have taken this task under superior order, to enlighten people in Krsna consciousness. The method is also very simple. Unfortunately that people are not at all interested; they are so much under the clutches of the external energy, durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ. So the progress is very slow, but our duty is to go door-to-door and inform them that "You be Krsna conscious. Try to understand the value of your life."

That is our duty under the order of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]. Lord Caitanya says that "You become a spiritual master under My order." And what is the business? "Whomever you meet, you just try to inform him about Krsna." 'Krsna'-upadesa. It is not very difficult.

So to become spiritual master-not bogus, but genuine-is also not very difficult, because Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, "Under My order." The order is there, and the business is also there. What is the business? Simply speak about Krsna, simply inform about Krsna, whomever you meet.

So we can speak about Krsna because there is Bhagavad-gita. Krsna is speaking about Himself.

"I am the origin of everything." Vedanta says that Absolute Truth is the origin of everything. Janmady asya yataḥ, that is Absolute Truth, wherefrom everything is coming down. There must be something origin. You are born of your father, your father is born of his father, his father, his father, go on. So when you find the original father, then He is God. So there must be some original father. Otherwise, as there is no possibility of your appearance without father, similarly there is no possibility of the appearance of your father, his father. Then there must be. In the Vedanta-sūtra it clearly says, janmady asya yataḥ: the first person from whom everything is emanating.

So how can you deny God? Is that very reasonable proposal? You may not know God, but there is God. That you have to accept-the original person. So if you go on researching who is that person… You can do that. That is called ascending process, aroha-pantha. Aroha-pantha. By... Just like modern science, they want to search out the Absolute Truth, the empiric philosophers, but there is another method: inductive. This is called inductive.

And there is another method, deductive, avaroha-pantha, the message coming from higher level. Just like you understand in our childhood from father, parents, from teachers. So this is one knowledge, one process of knowledge. Another process: you search out. But so far God is concerned or anything is concerned, inductive process, aroha-pantha, is not perfect. The best process is to know from the authorities.

So you can know about Krsna from Krsna Himself, the best authority. Why should you make research what is called Krsna? Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita about Himself, so take it. Then you can understand Krsna, and then your human life, your interest for human life, will be fulfilled. This is Krsna consciousness movement. Simply try to understand Krsna, then your life will be fulfilled; otherwise it will be failure.

Thank you very much. [devotees offer obeisances]

Indian man: [indistinct] How shall we protect ourselves, and what are the benefits to one who can control the anger of mind and senses?

Prabhupada: In the sastra it is recommended that sahisnuta-tolerance; and karuna-mercifulness; and maitra-friendship; and samata-equality. There are different kinds of men in the society. Some of them are envious. Just like we are preaching Krsna consciousness, some of them are envious. For such persons we shall be tolerant. Then karuna-mercifulness. Those who are actually innocent, do not know very much about Krsna consciousness, we shall try to convince him about Krsna consciousness.

That is mercifulness. And those who are already in Krsna consciousness, we shall keep friendship with them, maitra. And to the general public, all living entities, we shall treat them equally, because a devotee should know, or knows, that every living entity is the part and parcel of God, but he is, by his karma, in a different form of body. Panḍitaḥ sama-darsinaḥ [Bg 5.18].

Therefore those who are in knowledge of the condition of the living entities in this material world, they do not help them; try to elevate them… The four principles we shall follow: tolerance, mercifulness, friendship and equal treatment. Then he will make advance, and Visnu will be satisfied. If you practice these four principles, immediately you satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead and you become liberated. Simply you have to practice this, that's all.

Indian man (2): What is the true principle of human life to make success in this life?

Prabhupada: To become Krsna conscious. That I explained in the beginning. They do not know the real self-interest, na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum. These people, ordinarily they do not know that their target is Visnu. They have taken something else as target of life. That is called durasraya.

So success of life means to understand Visnu, or Krsna. That is success. Anything else, all failure. Therefore we are preaching to make them successful in their human form of life. All other, simply srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8], simply waste of time and labor. Without understanding Krsna, anything. Eh?

You can execute a particular type of dharma, but if you do not develop your Krsna consciousness by executing such dharma, then srama eva hi kevalam, simply waste of time. Life is wasted, finished. Therefore we are giving the best contribution and the most efficient welfare activities, the Krsna consciousness movement. Try to understand this.

Indian man (3): Could you explain karma philosophy?

Prabhupada: Karma philosophy: if you touch fire, your hand will be burned. If you eat poison, you'll die. What is the difficulty to understand? That is karma.

Indian man (3): No, talking about Krsna and karma.

Prabhupada: Yes, karma is as you work, so you get the result, that is karma. Karma, vikarma, akarma. These are explained in Bhagavad-gita. Karma means… Therefore sastra gives you guidance that you act in this way.

If you don't take the direction of the sastras, and if you go on working according to your whims, na sa siddhim avapnoti, you will never get success, na sukham, neither happiness.

And what to speak of going back to Godhead?

Karma means just like a good citizen means he is acting according to the law of the state, and a bad citizen, criminal, who is violating the laws. Similarly, karma means, real karma means that-I began my lecture-varnasramacara-vata purusena paraḥ puman. For regulating the karma these four divisions are: if you are brahmana your karma is like this; you are ksatriya, your karma is like this; you are vaisya, your karma is like this; you are sūdra, your karma is like this; you are brahmacari, your karma is like this. So this is very scientifically divided. You can put yourself in any division, and if you execute it perfectly, sa karmana manasa vaca. And if you by your karma you worship Visnu, then you're successful.

In another place it is stated that,

The karma is divided according to varna: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra, or brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha. So varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ.

Everyone, either brahmacari or grhastha or brahmana or sūdra, svanusthitasya, following the regulative principles in each and every status of life, svanusthitasya dharmasya samsiddhir, perfection. How? Hari-tosanam. Whether by your karma you have satisfied Krsna, never mind you are a sūdra or a vaisya or a brahmana or a brahmacari, it doesn't matter; everyone can do. Everyone, by his karma, can satisfy the Supreme.

So the test is you may be engaged in any karma, it doesn't matter, but the success of that karma is tested whether by such karma Krsna, samsiddhir hari-tosanam, you have satisfied Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That's all. Just like in an office you may be engaged in any type of work, but by your work if you satisfy the head boss, then you are successful. It doesn't matter whether you are a peon or a clerk or a salesman. It doesn't matter. The only point is whether by your karma you have satisfied the boss. That is success.

So you can be engaged in any karma. It doesn't matter. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a military man. So he satisfied Krsna by his military work; therefore he is successful. So that is the test. There are so many divisions of karmas or dharmas. Karma and dharma, the same thing. Dharma means prescribed duty, and duty means working. That is karma. So you can be situated in any position of different grades of karma, but if you are able to satisfy by your karma the Supreme, then you are successful. Otherwise you are bound up.

You will be entangled. You will never be liberated if you are entangled; simply enjoy. If you do not try to work to satisfy Yajna, or Visnu, then it will be karma-bandhanaḥ.

Indian man: [Hindi]

Prabhupada: [Hindi with guests]

[break] [Prabhupada leads kirtana] [prema-dhvani]

Devotees: All glories to you Srila Prabhupada. [devotees offer obeisances] [end]