Room Conversation with Rāmakṛṣṇa Dāsa, formally Mr. Myer – July 10, 1977, Vṛndāvana

Sai Baba has been challenged in so many ways

Prabhupada: So Krsna has sent you to look after this Institution. And they are giving very good report that "Bhaktivedanta is..., is very big organization," and we have got land. Kindly try to improve it. So your wife is here?

Ramakrsna Dasa: Yes. She is also with me.

Prabhupada: So how do you...? Things there are?

Ramakrsna Things are... I think it will be matter of one month's time before we'll be able to centralize everything. Just now, at this moment, of course, we are operating slightly in different areas. But next month by this date we should be able to...

Prabhupada: Never mind.

Ramakrsna ...know exactly what is happening, once we commonize the kitchen, the office, accounting chain and everything. At present we are slightly under capital, small space, but... Gurukula is coming out very well. In fact we met the contractor yesterday. So we're hoping that by next month this time the whole thing should be shifted and so many more guestrooms will be released for people coming here for the festival. Possibilities are very good.

Prabhupada: Everything is there by Krsna's grace. Simply if it is nicely organized, things will... Tamala Krsna is very much appreciating.

Ramakrsna: Nothing is done by us.[?]

Prabhupada: So gradually...

Tamala Krsna: There was a letter from Sridhara Swami from Hyderabad temple. Would you like to hear it?

Prabhupada: You have read it?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. More or less, just a report about things going on there. [to Ramakrsna:] Did you say your brother has a press?

Ramakrsna: Actually my brother is doing a lot of printing work in Bangalore. What he does is similar to what Bibili[?] does. He has got his own equipment, this IBM typewriters. He makes all the stencils, and then the photo film, and then it is printed on special paper. So he's got two presses, one in Bombay and one in Madras. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: What is his name in Bombay?

Ramakrsna: Bombay, there's one gentleman, he is... The name of the press where he's...

Tamala Krsna: Your brother owns the press?

Ramakrsna: No. He's getting a contract. He doesn't invest very much money in that. He wrote a very nice directory of India. It's the most beautiful directory. It took him about seven years to make. All the manufacturers in India, all the different economy of India, the various festivals.

Prabhupada: Oh, directory.

Ramakrsna: Whole things is done in one. I'll bring a copy when I come next time. It was done on very special paper made by Triveni Tissues in Calcutta. And whole thing is just so thin, and it covers everything, whatever, all Indian bases, all foreign embassies, Indian banks, newspapers. He's an economist basically. So this is really a hobby. He's working for a company, and part of that is doing that. Bombay this gentleman is working with him there. He's got a very big press. But he has a problem in managing it. So my brother is trying to give him some business. They have got very good facilities, offset. People don't believe such good printing can be done in India, five color, six color. Very good job.

Tamala Krsna: Your brother is a printer by trade? No.

Ramakrsna: He is publisher.

Tamala Krsna: He's a publisher by trade.

Ramakrsna: He is actually doing agency business and publishing as his hobby. He's trying to bring out a few books.

Tamala Krsna: Where does he live?

Ramakrsna: He lives in Bangalore.

Prabhupada: So why not bring some samples?

Ramakrsna: I'll bring. I'll bring it myself. And also I think if you want to print Back to Godhead issue, he can easily do it. He's got a very good mind for it.

Prabhupada: No, if your brother has got good press, we can print so many books.

Tamala Krsna: You say he has a mind for editorial.

Ramakrsna: Very good. I'll show you some of the work he's done.

Prabhupada: In press we are very much interested. Our twenty-five, yes, fifty percent activities on press.

Ramakrsna: He can definitely help you. He knows Hindi, Sanskrit also.

Tamala Krsna: Your brother.

Ramakrsna: Hindi is good. Hindi, English. In fact, he's now very obvious data.[?] He's very well connected. He's known to local governor and people each end in Calcutta. In fact, [indistinct] recommended with a view to starting a center there. But trouble is, you see, that so many faiths people start believing in. He has been believing in Sai Baba sometime. So I was not wanting... But he'll change. It's just a matter of time. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: The Sai Baba has been challenged in so many ways.

Ramakrsna: I went one day. I was sitting. I watched him, and he said "Come with me," and... It was a while back. So like that, he's... But then when I told him about ISKCON he's definitely interested to know all about that. Because my eldest brother, he became a member first in Mayapur about four or five years ago.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada said Sai Baba has been exposed in so many ways now.

Ramakrsna: Yes. Biggest problem with him is, see, that he has some sort of a charm over people. Mainly people who go to him, they want some miracles. People who want some...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramakrsna: They want some quick profits. That's why they go to him. But if anybody is interested in spiritual advancement, he cannot help. Somebody wants to get a son, somebody's son is sick, he wants to get cured, such things...

Prabhupada: Material.

Ramakrsna: All material things only. He is not able to guide people. He does some different things, but basically he's not able to take people for any spiritual advancement.

Prabhupada: Neither he has any philosophy.

Tamala Krsna: No. None at all.

Ramakrsna: Actually South is full of it. They have got the Theosophical Society, there's the Aurobindo Society, there is the J. Krishnamurti Trust, [indistinct]. Many, many things are there. But each one of it is just a very shallow... No one really gets around to... J. Krishnamurti has never written a book himself. Always another person writes about him, his thoughts, his speeches. So only thing is that they started many, many years ago, fifty years ago. So they have bought some piece of land and started some schools, and like that they have created certain systems. But basically it's very difficult. One cannot make any advancement with such people. But all, everywhere in India today tendency is people just go and ask for some personal gain. In Tirupati people go there, they say "If I get a son, I will come and pay some money." And some people say, "If my husband gets all right, I will come and do something." Some women go there, they just take off all their diamond necklaces and pour it. In one day they will sometimes collect a crore of rupees. It's unbelievable. So that is the type attitude Indian people developed. And then the legend also says that Lord Visnu married, and for a marriage He has taken a big loan. So whosoever is helping Him to repay it, he gets a boon from the...

Prabhupada: Lord Visnu. Who is that?

Ramakrsna: Lord Vehkatesvara. That is one insult. They say that for a marriage He has taken so much money, and He's to pay back...

Prabhupada: A person, man?

Ramakrsna: I beg your pardon?

Prabhupada: A man has said?

Ramakrsna: It is a form of Visnu. They call it Vehkatesa-ji.

Tamala Krsna: He's talking about Balaji Vehkatesvara. He says that there's a legend that Visnu took a loan for... What?

Ramakrsna: For getting married. So that loan He has to repay now. So anyone who is helping Him to repay is given some... Therefore they say it is very natural for people to go and...

Tamala Krsna: Visnu doesn't have to take any loan. Anybody who believes that means they don't know the philosophy. How can God be wanting?

Prabhupada: Laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambrahma-sevyamanam [Bs 5.29]. He's worshiped by many thousands of goddess of fortune. Why He is taking your help?

Ramakrsna: So this is how the people are made to believe the entire thing. And now they've started collecting money through banks. People are sending deposits through banks to get pūjas done. And prasadam is being sold in all the places. This is just basically. But if anyone wants to go there and...

Tamala Krsna: So our temple should be ideal here.

Ramakrsna: Oh, yes. This actually will be the largest, Krsna-Balarama. We think that now we have made all possible efforts for people to know about it. In fact, if we could have a base in Mathura-that's where all the people come from-and one on the highway, then I think we can attract people both sides.

Tamala Krsna: Everybody knows about this. Anybody who goes to Mathura comes to this place. Oh, that's sure. People go to Mathura to come to Vrndavana anyway. Anybody that comes to Vrndavana has heard about Krsna-Balarama. It's a fact.

Ramakrsna: So next two months are very, very busy starting from August. The books definitely, for printing and publishing, I'll get some samples. He has done good work. And in case you want to do some editorial work, he can definitely do.

Tamala Krsna: But then he has to be... To do editorial work requires that he understand the philosophy.

Ramakrsna: Quite right.

Tamala Krsna: And if he's following Sai Baba now, how will he...?

Ramakrsna: Actually he's not following. I think it's just that at that point of time, nothing else is there. Like most people...

Prabhupada: The professors challenge him... What...?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. There was a challenge?

Ramakrsna: Yes, one of his disciples was recently caught. He had lot of vibhūti inside, hidden inside his body. So when he lay down they say that lot of vibhūti was coming out. So when they opened the shirt it was just filled with whole thing inside. That is one of his very close disciples there. But he is still managing to get away. His argument is that there are two types of people who come to him. One who is spiritually advanced, for them he does not show any miracles. But there are some poor people who do not believe in God unless you show the miracle, so therefore he gives all these mūrtis and... I told, once [indistinct] with him last year. So I was sitting there and suddenly, you see, he just did something and...

Tamala Krsna: Let's see him save himself from death. Let's see him make the miracle that he can save himself from dying. That he cannot do.

Ramakrsna: Whole thing is, in the last four, five years. Once they tried to buy my chairman's car, they want to buy. It is said he must have big car. It is big Chevrolet car he has got.

Prabhupada: I have heard that he's a big drunkard.

Ramakrsna: No, he wanted buy a car from my chairman.

Tamala Krsna: What did you say, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: That man is a big drunkard.

Tamala Krsna: Who?

Prabhupada: This Sai Baba.

Tamala Krsna: Sai Baba is a drunkard.

Ramakrsna: He is chewing pan twenty-four hours a day. His teeth are all red. Most of the time, when he goes there, he is...

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada said he doesn't just chew pan, he drinks. He's a heavy drinker.

Ramakrsna: But these are all nothing. It is all temporary. When the sun shines, then all these little glows, they just automatically go off.

Prabhupada: You are leaving when?

Ramakrsna: Today evening. Tomorrow morning I'll return to Madras, leave the day after, morning, then come back next week.

Tamala Krsna: When will you be coming back?

Ramakrsna: Next week. Wednesday or Thursday.

Prabhupada: Jaya. [break] Any intelligent person can understand this is all Communist propaganda. And the Central Government is seeking an opportunity to drive them away.

Tamala Krsna: To drive away the Communists.

Prabhupada: If they can find out the snake behind the earthworm, then they'll be finished. [laughter] That there is. There is no case. Simply it is maneuver. Communist government wants to drive away the Americans. This is the plan. And the government is anxious to keep good relationship with America. And the Communist wants to drive them away.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Now the American Consulate is also involved. That makes it very jeopardizing for the Communists. If they act the wrong way, then the Central Government will lose its position with the American Embassy. It will look very bad for the Central Government. They're not going to let the state act in any way that will jeopardize their position. The two acting together, Central Government and the American Consulate...

Prabhupada: It is very clear that it is a plan of the Communists.

Tamala Krsna: Would you say that even, I mean, initially it was a plan in the sense of the cow going on the land and...

Prabhupada: No, no. This is all plan to make a case.

Tamala Krsna: No, but I mean just like the cow...

Prabhupada: It is insignificant. What is that? There was a cow, and...

Tamala Krsna: So I mean... I'm just trying to understand. Just like the Muslim, he got the cow.

Prabhupada: This is plan.

Tamala Krsna: That was planned.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Oh. I see. Even from that point it was planned.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhakti-caru: And the purpose [indistinct] outsider coming into our [indistinct].

Tamala Krsna: How could they take our grass?

Bhakti-caru: At night, you know, they take the grass inside. [indistinct] Maybe at night there were some kind of people around them. Just like at [indistinct]. And then when they caught this man...

Tamala Krsna: They shaved half his head, they said.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, this is all...

Bhakti-caru: [indistinct]

Tamala Krsna: They shaved the Muslim's head. [laughter] Like with Rukmi. Same punishment was meted out by Lord Krsna to Rukma. We have to follow our predecessors. Krsna is the original predecessor. So far, I have not written anything to them because I think they should first send their report. You've been speaking... Actually, what you've been saying is very encouraging. Just like yesterday you said that they have done right, but I'm not communicating any of this to Mayapur.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. This is not to...

Tamala Krsna: They should first of all send a report before we tell them anything, because we should get the actual facts from them.

Bhagatji: [Transl. In today's newspaper, Srila Prabhupada, some reports about that has been printed. What they have done is right to protect themselves.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Han?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. To protect themselves they have done the right thing.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes? Who says that?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. The contractor was saying that.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Which newspaper reported this?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. I did not ask about that. I will find out and give you the news paper cutting tomorrow.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. In which news paper?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Our contractor read it, he told me. Mr. Ahuja was telling me. May be in Hindusthan Times because he reads Hindusthan Times.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. You did not read yourself?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. No, I did not read it. The contractor was telling me. It was in favor of ISKCON.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. We did not go to their house to shoot them.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Yes, you are right.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. They were wounded in our premises.]

Bhagatji: You have the right, for the protection of your wealth and land.

Prabhupada: We did not go to shoot them at their house.

Tamala Krsna: They attacked us.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Three hundred of them. And nobody got seriously ill. Nobody got seriously injured.

Indian man (1): No. This also came in the paper. Everybody says they know. Nobody sees. It is also coming. He was also telling us.

Tamala Krsna: It seems like another opportunity of Lord Krsna's to make us prominent.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Actually, if we did not get these prominent opportunities, it would take many years to become so prominent, but Krsna pushes us.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Yes. Krsna became prominent by killing Pūtana. [laughter] Immediately. [Transl. Which news paper reported this?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Tomorrow I will show you.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Hmm.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Today he didn't come.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. These Communists should be driven out from India.]

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, I'm still in the midst of doing some work. Is it all right if I continue?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Srila Prabhupada, would you like to eat something now?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Not now.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Won't eat? May I give you some mango and milk?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I am not particulary hungry. I have taken some fruit juice.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. What fruit juice?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Han?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Fruit juice is just like water.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Whatever it is.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. You won't eat anything then?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I have drunk milk.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. That was at noon time.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. At noon time.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Then from tomorrow let us arrange your meal like before?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That I will tell you tomorrow.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Okay Srila Prabhupada. So I won't give you the medicines any more today. Let it be Srila Prabhupada. I was thinking, he supposed to give medicine for seven days and we have already paid for it, so what about that? He didn't give medicine for forty rupees. So should I ask him to return it?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What is the use of asking?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Cannot ask. You tell him. You tell that for now we will stop the treatment. When we go tomorrow...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. There is no need to go.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. I brought the paper from him and told him that I will send it back tomorrow.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Which paper?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. The newspaper which I brought.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Oh.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. I won't go, but I will send it. When someone goes to the market I will send it with him.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Discuss it with Tamala.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Okay Srila Prabhupada. Jaya Srila Prabhupada.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Now everything is quite there.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Yes I think so. Conspiracy. Some conspiracy is going on.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Han?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Conspiracy. Conspiracy is going on.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. If it was serious it would go on.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. No, it was not serious. Someone was saying that in last fifteen days there had been no serious injury to anyone. And what Bhavananda has done was the right thing. Sri Rama was banished. He went to the forest. After He left there was so much talk going on in Ayodhya. Among those topics, one of the topic was that the miscreants began to say that Bharat had a role in the exhile of Rama. The mischieves people spread this rumor. But those who were devotees they could not believe it saying it is just impossible. Bharat cannot do like that. [Laughs]. This is the point. Only miscreants take pleasure in such matters, but the devotees feel sad. They said it is not possible.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Our point is that if an ordinary person can understand that it was a communist plan then can't the government understand it?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. That is it. The government people are also saintly. They are not saintly, but good hearted. They are good people. Their hearts are pure.]

Prabhupada: Hun?

Bhagatji: [Transl. Anybody can tell from his common sense that if someone comes to your house and attack then what will you do? You can only surrender if there is no attack on you.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. In America there is a law that if you enter in my house without permission, I can shoot you. It is so strict there.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Not in India. In India you cannot shoot him, you can insult him.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. There you can kill him.] You have no right to enter my house.

Bhagatji: [Transl. But Prabhupada, how do they enter anyone's house? From where will they take permission if they have to go to someone's house?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. Permission... I mean to say that the laws are so strict.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. It means usually they don't do. If someone does so under the circumstance there is no fault.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. There is no fault. This happened one time. One of our devotees went to somebody's garden to get some flower and they shot him.] Trespass.

Bhagatji: [Transl. Did that devotee get hurt?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, he was frightened. Such laws are there in America. They keep signboard] "Beware of dog" "Do not trespass". It's a big country so without strict laws how will they maintain? There the dogs are trained in such a way that if anyone comes even near the gate, they begin to bark.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Here also there are trained dogs in the houses of the big people. They bark at strangers.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. They have a company to train dogs. They leave the trained dogs in the banks, in the shops at night, and in the morning they bring them back. The dogs are ours. You pay us and our dogs will proptect your shop and banks, etc. At night they let loose the dogs and in the morning they again take them back. Scary dogs. I have seen so many in Europe also. Horrific. The thieves are horrific, the government is horrific, the public is also horrific.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Prabhupada, you have done a marvelous job in these horrific countries. But in India still there is some discipline. In the blood of people in India...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Here they are all fools. They simply imitate. This is a matter of regret.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Yes. But the jewel of India is to show respect to the devotees. This is the gem of India. Even the children show respect to the saintly persons.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Now that is being dimished.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. God is in our side.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. People there were saying that the way you are speaking, especially in the beginning, you should be killed. But the Supreme Lord has saved me from so many types of great dangers in all respects. And as far as my health is concerned, it has been bad from the time I went to abroad at the age of seventy. I suffered heart attack three times, and since then something or other is always happening to my body.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. So in unhealthy condition you have been preaching in this whole time.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. All along I have preached in unhealthy condition. I went through such condition, one time I was traveling in a motor car and suddenly I felt like I will die now.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Why is so? Is it because of fear or something else?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. No. Just my health condition was so bad, that's why.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Ill health. Fear of accident?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. No accident. Because my health was so fragile. Imbalance of wind. When I was returning to India in 1967 for the first time, these people took care of me very nicely, but my condition became so bad on the way, I didn't tell them anything, I thought I will not survive. I arrived at the airport. As I was sitting my condition became very serious. Immediately, I came to India by force. I was prepared. If I have to die, then let me go to Vrndavana.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Then you went back again.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I went back again. But when I thought that there is no alternative left for survival, then I came back to Vrndavana. Actually my health has been down for a long time. From 1965 to 1977. I was never healthy.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Yes. I also noticed that. From last four or five years I have also seen that.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Does anyone start any work at the age of seventy?]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Impossible. Sometimes we sit down and chat and everyone says what you have done is simply impossible. It is not possible. Who can be so brave? We can not even imagine Srila Prabhupada. This is a fact.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. When I got my ticket from Scindia Navigation, at that time all the secretaries and other people there made fun of me. This old man is going to die.]

Bhagatji: [Laughs]

Prabhupada: [Transl. At such an advanced age he is going to preach! This old man is simply going to die. This was their idea. On top of that he is alone and with no money! Nor there is any friend nor any address or anything with him.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Srila Prabhupada, when you first went there you had no money and there were no devotees so how would you manage?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes, from the books.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Those were your beginning days. [laughs] You also travelled around with your books?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Hmm. Three volumes of Srimad-Bhagavatam I had printed here in India. Some of those three volumes of books I took along with me. From those books everything was going on. There also I saw two, three shops where they sell religious books about oriental culture. There is one big shop called Paragon store. In that store I sold some of my books. And another oriental store also purchased some books. I made some friends and sold them some books. They used to buy. Sometimes I would go to the church and they would buy some books.]

Bhagatji: [Transl. Even in the church they bought? [Laughs] Prabhupada, the Lord went with you to the church.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Hmm. From the beginning, from the ship I started...]

Bhagatji: [Transl. From Airport?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, From……..]

[end]