Room Conversation
about Mayapura Attack
Talk with Vrindavan De

July 8, 1977, Vrndavana
Prabhupada: Broken.
Tamala Krsna: Finished. I remember we were walking with you. So it was near the... You know, near Bury Place there's a little park.
Prabhupada: That is very nice.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah. There was one building that they were constructing, and before finishing the building they were living in it, and you said, "This means this British Empire is finished. They cannot even afford to finish the building before living in it. This is a sign that they are not opulent at all." I remember you said that. They're not very opulent, the British.
Prabhupada: No. Their opulence finished. Actually they're poor country. Simply by exploiting other countries they became rich. Otherwise they are... Naturally they are poor.
Tamala Krsna: Peasants. Didn't Hitler say something about that?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: I think Hitler said they're...
Prabhupada: "Shopkeeper's nation." Yes. Naturally they are very poor. They cannot produce anything. It is so cold.
Tamala Krsna: They produce coal.
Prabhupada: I do not know what is they produce... What is called?
Tamala Krsna: Moss.
Prabhupada: Moss. When there is moss and waterpot.
Tamala Krsna: Moss.
Prabhupada: Moss, moss.
Tamala Krsna: They produce that.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Everywhere you'll find, even on the trees, because there is no sunshine, all rainfall.
Tamala Krsna: Right.
Prabhupada: Very wretched place. I told some television reporter. "Here is hell."
Tamala Krsna: When you landed there you said that?
Prabhupada: No. There was television girl. "What is the description of hell?" "Now, here is, London."
Tamala Krsna: Whew! That must not have been a very popular statement.
Prabhupada: No, he stopped immediately. Simply outwardly decorated, and it is hell. I told him. Actually that is, everywhere. No... Only cloud and that mist.
Tamala Krsna: They say that the sun never sets in the British Empire.
Prabhupada: But is always sets in London.
Tamala Krsna: It never rose.
Prabhupada: Setting of sunshine is monopolized by London.
Tamala Krsna: There's a description in the Bhagavatam about the setting of the sun. It's described that when the day..., that the water is darker by day. The ocean water is darker by day than by night. And the reason given is that the daytime, the daylight goes into the ocean at night. The ocean absorbs the light of the day, and therefore when you look at the water at night, it's lighter than it is during the day. That's a fact. The Bhagavatam explains why, that there's some power within the ocean to attract the daytime. And in the daytime, the nighttime goes...
Prabhupada: It is absorbed.
Tamala Krsna: And the opposite is true, in the daytime the night goes into the water, so it appears a very dark color. This is... Every explanation is given in the Bhagavatam, and it's all in contradiction to the so-called scientists. They say that the reason we experience day and night is that the earth is rotating on its axis and at the same time circumambulating the sun.
Prabhupada: Double. Double motion.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. So they say, therefore, when you're on this side and the sun is here, you won't see, but when it turns around, then you'll see the sun. But the Bhagavatam does not agree with that description. The Bhagavatam says that you don't see the sun because it's blocked by the Meru. The sun is moving, and Meru is blocking. And they never even heard of Meru. What is their knowledge? Such a big mountain and they don't even know about it. That means they never left the earth's sphere. They never went more than a few hundred miles in the air, Srila Prabhupada. It's all lies.
Prabhupada: All. That I am speaking from the very beginning. Now it is proved. They are also saying.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, about the moon hoax.
Prabhupada: Yes. They could not answer this, "Why Sunday first, Monday?"
Tamala Krsna: I was with you when that reporter came in Los Angeles. Prabhupada said, "Then answer to this one question, 'Why all over the world, Sunday comes before Monday?' "
Prabhupada: They could not answer.
Tamala Krsna: No, they thought that that was a childish... They thought that was very childish to say...
Prabhupada: Yes, first of all answer this child. Then become scientist. So there is no professor.
Tamala Krsna: Actually, to them, some of our statements seem very childish and innocent.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Some of the things that we say. Just like why is the water darker at daytime? Because the night has entered the water. They say, "Oh, that is..."
Upendra: They say it's mythology.
Tamala Krsna: Mythology or childish. "Only a child would believe such a thing." But it's common sense. They have no faith, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hm. Go and take rest. [break] Because I am very much fond of traveling, touring, they might have caused some danger. So Krsna has detained me. What do you think?
Tamala Krsna: I think you're right, Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Actually the GBC, we all were thinking that it might be dangerous for you...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: ...to travel.
Prabhupada: They would have been very glad that "Here is the old rascal who has spoiled our children." They could charge, and drag me to the courts and give me trouble. Therefore a restriction on me.
Tamala Krsna: What, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Restrict, that instead of myself, he has to restrict: "Do this way."
Tamala Krsna: Including go to the court. This boy writes further. He says, "They claimed I was brainwashed by Srila Prabhupada and the devotees, and they were here to get me to think for myself again. They kept me up for ten hours at a time for so-called deprogramming, just blaspheming Srila Prabhupada and Krsna and telling lie after lie. Finally they let me go to sleep, and in the morning it was time for more blaspheming and lies. But by Krsna's mercy I was able to escape out the front door of the house," he says, "which was unguarded. I ran down my block barefoot and was able to get to my friend's house. I told him the story. He gave me enough money to get to a nearby temple. There I served Radha and Krsna and had the association of my Godbrothers, who are most dear to me. There I spent the happiest time of my life as a devotee with the association of the Brajabasis. Being a devotee of Lord Sri Krsna, there's nothing like it-singing, dancing, taking prasadam, being happy and free from anxiety all the time. It is just a blissful life. All Krsna wants is for us to be happy with Him. I called my parents and told them that I was doing fine and that I had even gained seven pounds in weight. They had the police looking for me all over the place in only a minute, and they finally showed up. Maharaja felt it was best that I go back and clear things up with my parents and with their consent come back. But they refused to let me go, and instead put me through a one-month deprogramming session. This time I was unable to escape. But now Krsna has pulled me through, even though I'm forced to live with my parents. They are nice people, but they just don't understand about transcendental life. But they will come around sooner or later. I cannot keep any Vedic literature at home, so a friend lets me keep it at his house, and I read it during my school lunchtime. I am not able to keep japa beads to chant on, so I chant Hare Krsna on rosary beads. I'm sixteen years old now and going to school, where I am taught little of any value. It is sometimes difficult to remain Krsna conscious out in the material world, but I pray to Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda to help me become strong and desire to serve Krsna more and more every day. I will be able to join the Hare Krsna movement in person in two years, which isn't very long considering that I have waited to serve Krsna for millions of lifetimes. If you have the opportunity to serve Krsna, don't waste it, because you may wind up in my shoes in your next life. Hare Krsna." This is...
Prabhupada: If one man is turned by this, the movement is successful. So there is good prospect, good hope. And you all combine together, try. Push this movement more and more.
Tamala Krsna: A lot of encouraging... I mean, everywhere there's victory.
Prabhupada: Now I am assured. If I die or live, this movement will go on. Is it not?
Tamala Krsna: This movement cannot die. Too many... Implanted in so many people's hearts now. We cannot get it out anymore.
Prabhupada: Then?
Tamala Krsna: A very nice magazine.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: I can just show you some pictures. [break]
Prabhupada: There is no danger at Vrndavana-candra's... Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pra... [Bg. 9.31]. So now they are printing, huh?
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, this is on their own press, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Oh!
Tamala Krsna: Look how nicely they've done. It says, "Serving Krsna in the Land of Transcendental Bliss." Ox cart, cooking, Kuladri cooking in a big pot, cows, milking. Here they have all the people working on it.
Prabhupada: Very nice.
Tamala Krsna: "Light of the Bhagavata." It's a lecture by you. These are original illustrations.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, do you see what this says, Srila Prabhupada, on this past page? It says... This is the verse. "The small rivulets, which were almost dried up during the months of May and June, now begin to overflow, transgressing the banks of the river, just as the upstarts addicted to uncontrolled sense enjoyment overflow the limits of expenditure all of a sudden." And then they show a picture describing it. Sense enjoyment. They're going verse by verse and drawing original illustrations to depict. Vedic recipe page: rasagullas. It says, "Agni-hotra on Lord Nrsimhadeva's Appearance Day."
Prabhupada: Very good.
Tamala Krsna: Sanskrit is given. It's very nice. "Spiritual Psychology: Going Beyond the Sex Impulse."
Prabhupada: They printed in their own press.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Very good advancement. What is this?
Tamala Krsna: It says, "Asrama Stems." It's describing the construction of your palace. And here's a picture of the two salagramas which they now worship. Look how elaborate!
Prabhupada: Very good.
Tamala Krsna: Sri Hiranyagarbha and Sri Sudarsana in jeweled thrones. This is making the top of the domes. On your Palace there's... The top domes have lotus petals coming under them. So over that will go the domes. This is very big. The devotees are making the whole thing themselves. This shows devotees. See, this is a form, and into this form they'll pour concrete and other things and make shapes like these lotus petals. It's all hand done. "The Hare Krsna Movement." This is pictures of sankirtana in Pittsburgh and Wheeling, West Virginia. "Istagosthi: Questions and answers discussed between His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami and members and guests of New Vrindaban." "Cow-Katha." (laughter) Like krsna-katha, cow-katha. "Seeking Refuge from the Kali-yuga." This is from your old Back to Godheads. I remember in the first printings in America this appeared-Narada-Bhakti-Sutra. This boy writes an article every week"Deep in the Woods." He's the woodman there, wood cutter. He tells about different... He relates it to the sastra. "Color photographs available of Radha-Vrndavana-candra." They send it in the mail, "Non-profit organization, US Postage Paid." So it goes in the mail just like this. Very nice. I think it's time for your massage, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: I'll take.
Tamala Krsna: Okay. I thought it was good to read all these things to you.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. [break] ...underneath a tree.
Devotees: Yes. [break]
Tamala Krsna: ...telephone call from Gopala Krsna. He got a call from Mayapura, and in our Mayapura temple there was some difficulty there from dacoits.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Three hundred dacoits attacked our temple, and there was fighting, and five of the devotees were in the hospital. Bhavananda Maharaja, he was arrested 'cause he fired a gun. He shot two of them and put them in the hospital, so they arrested him. And that's all he told me. Three hundred dacoits attacked. He said Jayapataka is now there. Jayapataka wasn't there. He was traveling and preaching. So he's there now. He's sending a report to you, a more detailed report. And they want... Jayapataka Maharaja wants Satadhanya Maharaja to go immediately there because Bhavananda is in jail, arrested. And they want Prabhasa to come, because the gun, the gun that Bhavananda Maharaja used is in the name of Prabhasa. And Gopala Krsna is going there tomorrow. He's also going there.
Prabhupada: So why attacked?
Tamala Krsna: Well, the only thing we could guess is that now the government is Communist. So it may be that these were Communist-inspired dacoits. I mean, three hundred, if there was actually... It must have been quite a huge number. That means they were organized. It's not some ordinary village dacoits to have such a huge number of them. So the Communists, maybe they did this. It's hard to understand until we get the report from Jayapataka. He said he's sending it.
Prabhupada: And police did not help?
Tamala Krsna: Well, it was in the middle of the night. So probably by the time they informed the police, you know, by the time the police came, whatever was done was done. I mean, Gopala didn't have the full information, and he's going there. And, of course, we were only talking over telephone, so even if he knew... He told me as much as he could over the telephone. But I asked if anyone was killed. He said no. But five devotees were in the hospital. You know that teacher who was here? Hiranyagarbha? Remember the gurukula teacher? He was stabbed. I think that's about the most serious that anyone was hurt. No one was killed or anything, but... The government now is very precarious there. It's all Communist government. I mean, I remember when Bengal was with the Communists in 1971. It was horrible there. So many marches, and so many of our members were being attacked. So maybe it was the Communists who did this. I don't think the Gaudiya Matha could have organized such a thing. They would not do that.
Prabhupada: No.
Tamala Krsna: It sounds like... I don't know if there's any... Probably they won't attack again immediately. Now there must be police all the time there. I remember, in Calcutta once we had some trouble. Immediately they put a police guard all the time. The question is, of course, how much the government will protect us if the government is Communist and these were Communists who attacked. That we'll have to see.
Prabhupada: No. It has to be taken to the Central Government.
Tamala Krsna: That's what I thought also. I suspect that Gopala wants to get the full information firsthand. Then he has to come to Vrndavana-Delhi anyway, so probably he'll come from Calcutta to Delhi directly to deal with the Central government. At that time, we should take the help of Bhakti-caitanya Maharaja's friend, Mr. Gupta. This is the proper occasion.
Prabhupada: But if the dacoits attack, we used gun, what is wrong?
Tamala Krsna: Self-protection. The question is it may be that the gun may only be allowed to be used by the licensed holder of the gun.
Prabhupada: That does not...
Tamala Krsna: Sometimes, you know, when a person is arrested, it doesn't mean he's guilty, but they have to arrest him. Then, later on, it's taken up in court whether or not he's guilty.
Prabhupada: Gun is kept for protection.
Tamala Krsna: Anyway, it will come up in court. That's a formality, that when you shoot someone they arrest you. Whether you're right or wrong, they have to take you to court. Probably the dacoits pressed some charge also. Who knows? Jayapataka's report will be coming with..., more fully... Actually I would have waited to tell you, but because Satadhanya will have to... They want him to go, so... They want Prabhasa there right away. It may be that they want to say that Prabhasa was there.
Prabhupada: So both of them are going?
Tamala Krsna: Well, Gopala... His point... He said Jayapataka wants Satadhanya Maharaja and Prabhasa to go.
Prabhupada: Then let them go.
Tamala Krsna: That was his whole point in calling, because they cannot call from Mayapura to Vrndavana. The telephone line will not do that. So Mayapura called Bombay and Bombay called here.
Prabhupada: So some of the dacoits are arrested or not?
Tamala Krsna: He didn't say. I'm certain that some of them must have been arrested. They couldn't have all gotten away. I mean, some of them are in the hospital. The ones that Bhavananda shot are in the hospital.
Prabhupada: So one is in the hospital.
Prabhupada: Two.
Tamala Krsna: Bhavananda shot down two of them.
Prabhupada: No, no. From their? Dacoits?
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, two. Bhavananda shot with a gun two dacoits, and they're in the hospital.
Prabhupada: So then there is clue. Then others should be arrested.
Tamala Krsna: Actually... I'm actually speculating... Gopala said Bhavananda shot two of them, and he's in jail for shooting two of them. I'm saying that they're in the hospital. Maybe they're not. He's arrested for shooting two of them.
Prabhupada: Unless they are in hospital...
Tamala Krsna: How could he be arrested? Right.
Prabhupada: Bengal has become ruined.
Tamala Krsna: They're the only place in all of India that elected a Communist government. Everyone else was so happy to elect the new party. But they elected Communists. Most amazing.
Prabhupada: Where is Vrindavan?
Devotee: He's resting.
Tamala Krsna: You know, what I'm thinking is that that Mr. Arora, he wanted to go to Jyoti Basu.
Prabhupada: He talks too much.
Tamala Krsna: I don't think it's going to have much consequence. If they want to give us the land, they'll give it. It's not that...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Regarding that land, if they want to give it, they'll give it. It's not that somebody's going to come, like Mr. Arora, and by his coming suddenly they're going to give us the land. It's a big political matter. It's not friendship. We just have to become very much prepared now for such occurrences. Those gurukula boys, as they grow up, they should be trained to protect Mayapura.
Prabhupada: Therefore I say ksatriya. Some of our men should be trained as ksatriya.
Tamala Krsna: This is required.
Prabhupada: Catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13]. There must be divisionbrahmana, ksatriya, vaisyanot that all one class. That is all wrong.
Tamala Krsna: Some people are inclined in that way. Guna-karma.
Prabhupada: But everyone can be utilized if you organize it rightly. Three hundred dacoits there means government is very weak.
Tamala Krsna: That's just in one little area, Nadia District. Imagine how many dacoits are in all of Bengal now. It will get even worse than it was in 1971. I'm sure, as the Kali-yuga progresses, it will only get worse. And it was very bad. I remember when we were living in Bali Ganj. Every day there was march. People were marching, Communist slogans.
Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Bhakti-caru was saying that one of the reasons Bengali people are by nature... They're intelligent. They're always intelligent people, not so much physically hard working. So without so much physical work to do and without proper employment, this intelligence now has become misdirected. 'Cause nowhere else in India do the Communists have such a foothold as in Bengal.
Prabhupada: Intelligent and lazy.
Tamala Krsna: Intelligent lazy. I looked on the medicine bottle of this cough medicine that you took.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: This cough medicine that you took, that Expectrin? One fourth of it is chloroform, and it says that in some persons it will cause sleepiness, drowsiness, due to the chloroform.
Upendra: He's coming, Prabhupadaji. He's just finishing breakfast. He said he's coming. [break]
Prabhupada: ...in the world, the most disturbing element.
Tamala Krsna: In Russia, it seems from Harikesa's letter, that they are admitting it is a failure.
Prabhupada: It is... It must be failure.
Tamala Krsna: Now in Russia they seem to be tending more and more to give up all of this false philosophy. They're allowing churches again.
Prabhupada: Lenin, Stalin, they were gundas. Gunda philosophy.
Tamala Krsna: What about Marx?
Prabhupada: He was a rascal. What is his philosophy?
Tamala Krsna: Economic philosophy.
Prabhupada: No, no, what is that, basic principle?
Tamala Krsna: Basic principle is that the...
Prabhupada: I do not care to read this nonsense, never. What I hear from you, that's all. I tell them, "Mudhas, naradhamas." That's all.
Tamala Krsna: You don't spend any time studying their philosophy.
Prabhupada: Why shall I waste my time? I never read all these.
Tamala Krsna: Sometimes devotees say, in order to defeat... This is their philosophy.
Prabhupada: They are defeated, already dead. Few days they can quack. That's all. Who asks for Marx now? Gandhi, Marx, Tolstoy, who cares for them? Vivekananda? Now Krsna's Bhagavad-gita is taken.
Tamala Krsna: Even in the law court it's quoted.
Prabhupada: So what is the Marx philosophy?
Tamala Krsna: He says that the people are suffering at the hands of the capitalists. One or two people...
Prabhupada: That's a fact. That we admit, but not to adjust in that way.
Tamala Krsna: He said everything should be taken out of the hands of the few and given to the many.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: By violent revolution.
Prabhupada: Why violent revolution?
Tamala Krsna: He says the few will not give up without forcefully taking it from them.
Prabhupada: But you'll also not give up. You want to take it by force.
Tamala Krsna: He says...
Prabhupada: So if you have got right to take by force, others have got the right to take by force.
Tamala Krsna: He says, "We represent everyone except the few. And we want to make the few part of us, but they should not be special."
Prabhupada: But if you are so able, then why you are few? You must be many.
Tamala Krsna: No. His revolution is the revolution of the masses against the few. Just like in Russia they overthrew the Czars.
Prabhupada: Not the masses. The gundas. Russia was never joined by the masses. It is wrong. That I have studied. Gundas, some gundas... Just like three hundred gundas came. That does not mean that the mass of... The gundas' party, Lenin gundas... He had some few men. They attacked. They killed. That's all, not the mass. It was not a mass movement.
Tamala Krsna: In China it was the masses.
Prabhupada: No. The same, the same few.
Tamala Krsna: Well, they said that the few represented the masses.
Prabhupada: How? Who elected you? Who asked you? Gaya mane napni mora:(?) "Nobody cares for me, and I have become beautiful." There are many Bengali... Danle tarale nija ram salda.(?) (chuckles) Mass people never joined. That I have studied.
Tamala Krsna: Well, they say that they represent the...
Prabhupada: You can say, but who made you representative? You can say all nonsense. That is your business. [break]... who will give something standard, they'll be established. That standard is in this varnasrama. Here is the standard, that leg must be there, the hand must be there, the head must be there, the belly must be... One who has got the qualities to work like hand, he must work as hand. That is natural. These rascals have no education actually. Therefore I always say, "rascals." They manufacture. They are imperfect, and they manufacture. [break] "Probably," "maybe," like that. No standard logic. So, (Bengali)
Vrindavan De: Nandagrama, Varsana, Radha-kunda, Syama-kunda. (Bengali)
Prabhupada: Govardhana Hill?
Vrindavan De: Govardhana. (Bengali)
Prabhupada: (Bengali) So do you know anything about Bengal situation?
Vrindavan De: I think it's okay now.
Prabhupada: What is the Communist view?
Vrindavan De: Communist view?
Prabhupada: They don't want religion? What is this leader? Ajit Bose?
Vrindavan De: No, he's not the man of that sort. He's very serious type of man.
Prabhupada: But Bengal is now full of rogues and rascals and dacoits, everywhere. Practically whole Bengal is full of these elements.
Tamala Krsna: More than other places.
Vrindavan De: The Congress Minister is very much serious person.
Prabhupada: Anywhere you are going, anywhere, you can be attacked.
Tamala Krsna: Any train, anywhere.
Prabhupada: Anywhere.
Tamala Krsna: Any street.
Prabhupada: Nowhere is safe. Some boys may come and attack you and take... Nobody will... Is it not like that? Neither at home, neither on the road... You are not safe.
Tamala Krsna: Imagine, in Mayapura we have 250 devotees, and still they attacked.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: In Mayapura we have 250 people. What family has 250 people? If 250 people and there's danger, then what to speak of a family man with only a few people in the family? That means they're ready to attack any number of people. There are so many dacoits.
Prabhupada: No, therefore they came in number, three hundred.
Tamala Krsna: And it was very organized, they said. At night they came.
Vrindavan De: They can refer the matter to the Home Department. He's the Home Minister, I think, that Jyoti Bose. He is Chief and Home. He's controlling the police powers and force. (Bengali) Take action.
Prabhupada: They must be doing something.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, there's no doubt. With Jayapataka Maharaja there...
Prabhupada: (Bengali)
Tamala Krsna: Yes, there was shooting. Bhavananda Maharaja was shooting. There was shooting. I don't know if they were also shooting, the dacoits, but we had, our boys... This has happened before in small scale, so Jayapataka knows. We've been attacked enough times so that they know that we're going to make full reports and complaints and get action. The main thing immediately is to get protection of the police so that this doesn't reoccur.
Vrindavan De: You can forward a copy to (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: Then we should go... It should be taken to the Central Government.
Vrindavan De: The Chief Secretary.
Tamala Krsna: Another help you can get is from the embassies. American Embassy has to give protection to its citizens. All foreign embassies have to give full protection. Actually that's a very good road to take, because if the foreign embassies put in complaints, then it becomes international thing. Then the Central Government will get very upset and direct the West Bengal Government to stop this from reoccuring "Because we are getting complaints from foreign governments now that we can't give protection to foreigners who are here in this country."
Prabhupada: So give them the instruction.
Tamala Krsna: They should complain to the Consulate, American Consulate, and Consulate will complain to the Embassy. Once we get the full information then we can take action here in Delhi also. At this point we don't have enough information. This is a very good road to take. Go to the American Embassy in Delhi and say, "We want protection. We are American citizens. We want protection. We're being attacked in Bengal. You must put pressure on the government to give us protection." And they'll do that surely. Plus they have to start an investigation to expose who has done this. That has to also be brought up. I'm sure Jayapataka is... Srila Prabhupada, should we go and take our breakfast?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: You want Vrindavan to stay for a while?
Prabhupada: No, he (indistinct). (Bengali conversation about going around Vrndavana) I shall give you car. (Bengali). So if you do business, I'll give you car. Not for luxury. (conversation continues in Bengali) (end)

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