Room Conversation with Psychiatrist – October 3, 1972, Los Angeles

721003R1-Los Angeles [50:52 Minutes]

Philosophy and life, of Krsna

[noisy recording]

Prabhupada: Where is Syamasundara? He's not here.

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: He's downstairs packing. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You have seen our books?

Guest: I haven't read any of them. [indistinct] …various Bhagavad-gita's, but not ah... I haven't read any.

Prabhupada: Show our books.

Devotee: [indistinct] …Bhagavad-gita, Teachings of Lord Caitanya.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No.

Devotee: This is [indistinct]

Prabhupada: My picture is backside.

Devotee: Srimad-Bhagavatam [indistinct] this is Srimad-Bhagavatam by Srila Prabhupada and published in 1960.

Guest: Who founded the Society?

Prabhupada: Yes….

Pradyumna: The Nectar of Devotion, this tells about psychological aspects of Krsna consciousness.

Guest: [indistinct] psychological [indistinct] philosophy [indistinct]

Pradyumna: Tells about the symptoms of devotional service. [indistinct] the symptoms of having a pure relationship with God.

Guest: Could you, could you not [indistinct] this whether or not you have a pure relationship with God.

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: [indistinct] Krsna.

Devotee (2): [background] Krsna Krsna Krsna Book.

Guest: You showed me.

Pradyumna: This is Krsna Book [indistinct] an essential part of the Srimad-Bhagavatam with 18,000 versus, where the Bhagavad-gita leaves off. This is the essential part [indistinct] sublime knowledge [indistinct] tells directly about Krsna, where He lives [indistinct] who His associates are, what His activities are.

Guest: This is very beautiful. So many stories.

Prabhupada: Ah. Stor… Philosophy and life, of Krsna.

Guest: That's nice. [indistinct]

Devotee: Stories [indistinct]

Pradyumna: [indistinct] Bhagavad-gita [indistinct] is the elementary book for spiritual life [indistinct] get into the science of God with Krsna's instruction [indistinct] engaged in devotional service and be liberated and this Bhagavatam it starts where Bhagavad-gita leaves off.

Bhagavad-gita begins and then the Bhagavatam starts where the Bhagavad-gita leaves off with the last instruction it goes on to expand and develop devotional service. Just the pure side of devotional service. Up to this point of Krsna Book. Krsna Book is the full realization of who the Personality of Godhead is.

Guest: Hm. The Krsna Book is a synthesis of what?

Pradyumna: You see, it is a combination of the Srimad-Bhagavatam [indistinct] Krsna.

Guest: Do you have classes?

Prabhupada: There are daily classes. At six, quarter past six in the morning.

Guest: How do you, do you see people or do you mostly speak with priests?

Prabhupada: No, we speak to our students. But outside, there are many outsiders that come.

Guest: When one of the... When one of the... When one of the people here are feeling, ah... Not in touch with themselves or the world... out of grasp, out of tune with nature.. Is it God after or is... An elevation of the spirit away from the body and away from that problem and you go into that problem and then you work on it or.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest: I'm curious as to whether you... When there is a problem and the principal players around me with the person in society then and the way that person feels about themselves in society. Do you help that person by transcending that plane by going above it and becoming more in tune with em….

Prabhupada: No we speak on the transcendental platform not on the bodily or mental or intellectual platform. We speak directly on the spiritual platform. Do you distinguish between mind and body mind intellect, and spirit? Do you have any such distinction? Different platform. What do you care for? Sensual? Then above that mental platform above that intellectual platform above that spiritual platform.

Guest: And do you go in those steps in the training or in the...

Prabhupada: Yes these are the four platforms. Body, indriyani parany ahur [Bg 3.42]. First of all our direct perception is on the sensual platform by sense perception. Just like seeing directly and seeing directly this special. And then I am seeing by hearing from others. These two visions are different, a child is seeing this machine and a mechanic who has heard about this machine he's seeing differently.

And then one actually mechanic is thinking to improve it and that is another vision. So even on the material platform there are three visions and above all these material, means bodily... material mean sensual, mental and intellectual. Above that there is the spiritual platform, so we speak on the spiritual platform.

Guest: And if someone who is having problems on another platform, say at the physical platform...

Prabhupada: Then he can be treated physically.

Guest: Do you treat him physically?

Prabhupada: No.

Guest: No. Okay.

Prabhupada: We, we take it that if spiritually one is sound then intellectually mentally and physically he will be sound.

Guest: Yeah.

Prabhupada: That is our proposition. Just like if you have got a $100 then you have got $50, $10 and $25, that includes, but if you are got $10 then you haven't got $100. But if you have $100 then you have automatically $10, so we train our students spiritually, just like for spiritual understanding they have to rise early in the morning, they have to take bath. They have to take krsna-prasadam they are forbidden to take so many things, so in this way automatically their physical hygienic problem is solved.

We don't pay very much doctor's fees, I'm here for the last seven years, I did not pay doctor's fees, mostly our students they haven't got to consult for their physical disease. Mostly they are immune from disease. So actually your body is healthy in sound bodily... I mean to say health, mental, I mean to say what's it called? Fixity, everything is there because the spirit soul is there, because the spirit soul is there your body looks healthy, as soon as the spirit soul is gone from the body it will immediately begin to decompose, is it not?

Guest: The body will in the end.

Prabhupada: The... Within your body you are-the spirit soul, I am the spirit soul so as soon as I the spirit soul, you the spirit soul go-leave this body immediately the body begins to decompose.

Guest (2): How do you feed the spirit soul?

Prabhupada: That I shall say; first of all because the spirit soul is there you are healthy. You take out the spirit soul, immediately your this lump of matter begins to decompose. Dead body and living body this is the distinction so long the spirit soul is there it is called living body, as soon as the spirit soul is not there it is called dead body.

Dead body means it has begun decomposition, therefore the conclusion should be that so long the spirit is there, …as long as the spirit is there so long the mind and body is in sound condition. You see? Therefore if you keep yourself always spiritually fit then you will keep mentally and intellectually and bodily fit. Now so far the spirit soul is concerned. You have no conception of spirit soul?

Guest: Some conception.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Guest: Ah... em… My words don't do very well ah... In essence that inexpressible ah… Ineffable… ah…

Prabhupada: But that is negation. That is not experimental.

Guest: That essence of me which is the same as of you and everyone.

Prabhupada: Now for section of the spirit soul, the spirit soul is existing within your body. I am enquiring whether you agree to this or not?

Guest (2): You're asked us whether we agree that it exists within our body, ah…. As I conceive of it, I am not used to thinking in terms of... The terms that you've derived, ah….

Prabhupada: No we accept, unless we accept or accept means unless we perceive and know it there is no question of spiritual education if I cannot understand what is that spirit soul then where is spiritual education and that is the basic principle of spiritual education.

Guest: I thought that I understood what you meant but I'm not sure now but what I feel when you talk about the spirit soul is that part of me that I feel most when I am not using my physical senses and I am not contemplating talking.

Prabhupada: No, physical senses are working due to spiritual presence, you are moving your hand because the spirit soul is within you, as soon as the spirit soul is gone from the body it is simply a lump of matter.

Guest (2): The matter is separate from the spirit soul?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: Does the spirit soul... Is my spirit soul any different from anyone else's spirit soul?

Prabhupada: No, no.

Guest: Yeah. I can understand that.

Prabhupada: The vital force, the moving force that is in you and that is in me that is in ant that is in elephant that in everywhere.

Guest (2): Is it in the matter? Is it in the decomposed matter? Is it in the wood?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Is it in our bodies after we are dead?

Prabhupada: Yes. You are dead, 'you' spirit gone but other spirit is there.

Guest: But are the cords the same?

Prabhupada: There are innumerable individual spirit souls.

Guest: Individual spirit soul's?

Prabhupada: You are individual, I am individual, he's... everyone.

Guest (2): And there is not a cord spirit soul that is the same with all of them?

Prabhupada: The quality is the same, the quality is the same. Just like you are human being, I am a human being, you have got your two hands I have got my two hands, you have got legs I have got legs, but still you are different, that is individuality. Because we agreed to have two hands two legs one head that does not mean we agree on everything.

Guest: But at the basis at the essence our spirit soul.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: Is there any difference?

Prabhupada: No.

Guest: No. Okay.

Prabhupada: No. That is Krsna consciousness.

Guest: What happens when someone comes to... ah hear and they are caught up or having a problem in say a physical or mental plane and can't understand the spiritual plane how do you tie them into that so they can transcend the problem?

Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness movement. If one comes to the Krsna consciousness platform then there is no more any problem bodily mentally or.

Guest: But what I am, what I'm curious about is how you tie someone into the Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: We have got our process.

Guest: It's not.

Prabhupada: We have got our process. We…

Guest (2): A healing process?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (2): A healing process? Healing.

Prabhupada: Healing. Yes it is healing process. It is healing process, just like you also heal by some psycho-theist process similarly we also heal by this Krsna consciousness process.

Guest: Could you say a bit about that process?

Prabhupada: Yes this chanting Hare Krishna, mantra. Just like there is a process of snakebite, have you seen a snake charmer? In India we have got still, if one is bitten by a snake he is unconscious by chanting the mantra you will gradually come to consciousness.

So this is material, similarly we are spirit soul we are now-everyone of us-either psychologically, mentally or bodily, we are all diseased, all diseased. So by this chanting process he comes to his consciousness and all this material, bodily mental intellectual diseases are cured.

Guest (2): It would seem that someone would have to be on a certain mind for that to be of assistance.

Prabhupada: No, we create that situation, simply by chanting. We are chanting and he joins in chanting, all our students do that. Then he becomes cured, mentally intellectually and bodily.

Guest (2): See we meet people who would not do that, they seek healing from other individuals more than from themselves and what they can bring up by concentration by chanting. They seek assistance more from outside than from within by chanting and they are not used to looking within or delving within by chanting.

Prabhupada: No we have got so many students and simply by chanting they are cured. Mental, bodily and intellectually, we have so many students, you can talk any one of them.

Guest: After going through the process to get their Krsna consciousness then would the students stay in the movement as far as like at the temple, in the temple or would they go out into the community and... And do regular jobs and that type of thing?

Prabhupada: Yes, there are many professions, he is... he is a Dr. of chemistry. He is doing his job but he is a Krsna conscious and there is many professors, many workers. It is not that one has to live in the temple, no. He can live outside. But he keeps his Krsna consciousness. But within the society it is easier because association has got some influence.

Guest: It's easier to stay with the discipline.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes.

Guest (2): Do you teach ah, control over the body?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): In relation over the body.

Prabhupada: Yes, as we say no meat eating, no intoxicants, no illicit sex, no gambling, there are so many no's. And so many yes so they have to do that. Do's and do nots, that is control. Do this and do not do this, so this is control.

Guest (2): You mentioned…

Prabhupada: The… Our students do not even smoke, do not drink tea coffee nothing. They do not go to cinema, no club, no restaurant.

Guest: No what?

Prabhupada: Restaurant. We have no such expenditure and probably no doctors bill. So at least we save so much expenditure.

Guest (2): You said, "no illicit sex," what is permissible sex?

Prabhupada: Permissible sex means married wife. One must be married and with married wife he can have sex once in a month after the menstrual period and when the wife is pregnant no more sex life. This is control. If he wants sex life he can have another wife but not to the pregnant wife.

Therefore we allow but not in your country but in India polygamy is allowed. One man can marry more than one wife but he cannot have sex life with the wife more than once in a month and that is stopped when she is pregnant. This is control of sex and [indistinct] against this that is illicit sex.

Guest (2): Which [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Even with your wife when she is pregnant if you have sex that is illicit sex.

Guest (2): Do you conceive of punishment?

Prabhupada: Punishment it will be already there automatically by nature's way…

Guest: Are women and...

Prabhupada: As soon as you violate nature's law you will be punished. Suppose you are eating, if you eat a little more you will be punished. That is nature's law. If you have more sex life then you become impotent. That is nature's punishment is there…

And if you indulge in all these prohibited things then you will never understand what is spiritual consciousness. That is the greatest punishment. If you do not understand what is spiritual life you remain as an animal, that is the greatest punishment, because animal cannot understand what is spiritual life.

So in spite of getting the chance of a human form of body if we keep ourselves like animals, is it not the greatest punishment? If I cannot improve as a human being, I remain on the animal platform, is it not the greatest punishment? So if you do not follow these principles then we cannot understand what is spiritual life, that means we remain animal.

Guest: Is there an endpoint to the growth process?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: Is there an end point?

Prabhupada: Yes as soon as you understand God then your knowledge is perfect. If you do not understand what is God then your knowledge is imperfect. The animals cannot be educated about God, a human being can be educated what is God therefore there are so many books, literatures, scriptures in the human society so if you don't take advantage of this human life to understand God then you remain animal.

Guest: Have you seen people who have understood God and who have ah… Who have been in Krsna consciousness that have been regressed or gone back into the other platforms?

Prabhupada: That one can go because there is relapse, you become released from disease and again there may be relapse.

Guest: I'm sorry.

Prabhupada: Any disease, you are for the time being, being cured but again you infect so you became again diseased, that is possible, but if you keep yourself quite fit always there is no fall down.

Guest: So then... Sort of in essence the path to the Krsna consciousness is.

Prabhupada: Is to understand God.

Guest: To understand God and to do what is most natural, to follow the natural laws.

Prabhupada: The essence is to know God and to love Him, that is our propaganda. The human life is meant for understanding God and love Him.

Guest: I can follow easily what you're saying as far as the discipline and the path to your Krsna consciousness and to do the what... What is the most natural... And that overeating overindulging in anything, sex... Anything is not natural but what I don't understand is how it is decided what is most natural?

In other words if I am ah.. If I go back to the point about sex because it is a concrete easy thing to talk about and for instance is it... is it just natural to have sex twice a month than once a month? It seems like the cut-off point is where I would have problems mostly accepting what is the most natural.

Prabhupada: The... First of all the basic principle of understanding is that I am spirit soul. I am not this body and because I have accepted this body I have to accept so many bodily troubles...

[Loud noise of truck outside]

Guest: So many what?

Prabhupada: Bodily troubles.

Guest: Yeah, yeah.

Prabhupada: The treatment is required body mind, because we have got this body and mind. So my problem is why I have contacted this body and mind?

Guest: Why you have?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because I go to treatment for my body because I have got this body... But if I don't possess this body then there is no question of treatment.

Guest: I missed the last bit. If you don't have this body then..?

Prabhupada: Our proposition is as I have already told, spirit soul is different from this body. Somehow or other the spirit soul has contacted this material body and all our troubles are due to this material body, therefore this material body is my problem.

Guest: Since the spirit soul in the body are different...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: …can the body come up with a disease that is completely separated from the spirit soul. In other words could someone on the Krsna consciousness get a physical disease of their bodies?

Prabhupada: The body is subjected to physical disease, how can you avoid it? But if you know, just like two men are sitting in a car, very nice car, somehow or other the car is damaged the man who possesses the car he is most afflicted and the other man he is not afflicted. Although they are both of them are sitting in the same car, why it is? You are psychologist you can understand.

Guest: Well certainly only from a physical sense, from the the.

Prabhupada: This is physical.

Guest: Yeah the...

Prabhupada: Both you and me are sitting in the same car.

Guest: Right but even if the owner was at that time... If he was away from his body... If he was…

Prabhupada: No not away, even within the car both of them are within the car. Now the car is damaged the owner is afflicted, he is concerned but the friend is not concerned. What is the cause?

Guest: The possession.

Prabhupada: Yes this man is absorbed in possession, "oh my car is gone," and because he has got the sense of possession he is not affected. Therefore the body is different from the soul when he comes to the consciousness of not possession then there is no trouble.

Guest: So someone who has trust in the consciousness may come down with a bodily illness but they won't be afflicted by it... em spiritual.

Prabhupada: Yes afflicted, suppose a man who knows perfectly well that I am not this car, "all right the car is a damaged I'll look some money, it doesn't matter." That is one thing. And another one is too much absorbed, "Oh my car is gone, my life is gone," this is the position.

One who is absorbed he is more afflicted, one who is not absorbed he knows that, "I am not this body", he is not afflicted. So it is a question of consciousness, one who is too much bodily conscious he is afflicted, otherwise one who is not bodily conscious he will not be afflicted, "oh it has come into effect, that's all..., it doesn't matter let me do my duty Hare Krishna and chant." This is the position, it is a question of development of that consciousness.

Guest: If someone comes in and they are preoccupied mentally with what would be a... A bad thought or something that keeps.

Prabhupada: Bad thought cannot come to him because if he is absorbed in Krsna thought...

Guest: Yeah.

Prabhupada: …then there is no bad thought, there is no scope of bad thought. Because you can think of one subject matter at a time so if you are 24 hours absorbed in Krsna thoughts then there is no question of bad thoughts.

Guest: So if someone comes in and admittedly when they first come in they are preoccupied by a bad thought, for say two hours.

Prabhupada: Yes that is cured.

Guest: Then just by... By getting away from it, not by expressing the thought and getting away from it but by not expressing the thought and getting away from it?

Prabhupada: No the same thing, a man comes to our society with bad thoughts.

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: But by chanting chanting chanting he becomes relieved of this burden.

Guest: Oh but he doesn't talk about the bad thought to anyone in the…

Prabhupada: He may talk or not talk it doesn't matter but it goes away.

Guest (2): One thing I don't quite understand, you, you and the people around you often seek to involve and to proselytise, strangers, new people, why is that?

Prabhupada: You also proselytise, when a mad man goes to you, you turn him into sane man. Is it not proselytising?

Guest (2): Yes, if he comes to me.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Your people go out to other people.

Prabhupada: We are better friends, you do not go, we are better friends. You charge fees, we canvass so we are better than you.

Guest (2): Do you.

Prabhupada: First of all answer this.

Guest (2): Am well.

Prabhupada: Don't avoid this question. You charge, we don't charge, we go to the diseased man and canvass, so we are better man than you.

Guest (2): What if he says no to you?

Prabhupada: Well anyone can say no, any canvassing. Suppose this is nice foodstuff, here is fruit the fruit man is canvassing, "here is nice mango," that does not mean everyone will take. The mango is nice. Because one does not take that doesn't mean the mango goes bad. It is his misfortune that he could not take a nice mango.

Guest (2): I was just thinking what you were just saying about charging and how our...

Prabhupada: No you... But charging of course that is your profession but we are not professional we distribute free. We distribute such exalted thing Krsna consciousness, we distribute free.

Guest (2): I think it seems that there is a... There is a giving... There is something that is given by the person to you when he joins you and takes your ideas. He gives you his time, he gives you what.

Prabhupada: He gives everything.

Guest (2): ..they have.

Prabhupada: He gives everything.

Guest (2): Eventually...

Prabhupada: Just like these boys they have given everything. So how do they give everything? We don't charge, we don't ask but they give everything. So do you think they are all fools and rascals? That they are giving everything for Krsna. What is your idea?

Guest (2): They may do what they wish if that is what they want.

Prabhupada: You, you examine each of our students they are not fools and rascals and why do they give everything for Krsna?

Guest (2): They want to.

Prabhupada: Yes that is natural to give everything to Krsna that is sane condition without this insane condition... Just like if you take something from my table, the sane condition is if you return it... The sane condition... Suppose somebody takes this box in his pocket without my knowledge he will be in tribulation, "Oh I have taken this without his knowledge what will he say," so many things but he will be cured from all this trouble when he returns it.

Similarly everything belongs to Krsna, everything belongs to God, nothing belongs to me even this body. Therefore everything offering to Krsna is the same condition... So when they come to Krsna consciousness they return everything what they received from Krsna, this is sanity. Others are thieves they enjoy other's property and claiming my property. Just like, take for example your country, USA. Is it actually your country, your place? Do you think?

200 years ago it did not belong to you it belonged to the Red Indians and now you are claiming your country. Why? Maybe after 200 years it may go to others. So where is your country? Suppose we are sitting here say for half an hour or one hour does it belong to you, this room? If you claim, "now I have sat here for one hour it is my room," is that claim is all right?

Guest: That is, that is all right, what still bothers me is not that the sanity is giving everything to God or giving your life to God which I...

Prabhupada: God has given you the life.

Guest: Yeah.

Prabhupada: God has given you the body, God has given you the mind, God has given you wealth, everything. So therefore everything belongs to God to come to this consciousness is called Krsna consciousness.

Guest: Yeah. I thin... What bothers me is that…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: …other consciousness is also…the path of giving everything to God or indeed giving everything to God or the spiritual...

Prabhupada: No we are talking of the philosophy.

Guest: Yeah, yeah.

Prabhupada: We're talking now.

Guest: But whether Krsna consciousness versus other consciousness in other ways of achieving the same philosophy.

Prabhupada: Actually by philosophical study you have to understand that everything belongs to God.

Guest: Which is basic to the philosophy of many religions and ways of understanding God.

Prabhupada: Yes that is the original philosophy that is; isavasyam idam sarvam , "everything belongs to God." We also belong to God, we are children of God therefore we have the right to use God's property but not more than what you require.

Guest: But not more than.

Prabhupada: But not more than what you require.

Guest: Yeah what you require.

Prabhupada: Now you're God's sons, I am God's son, he is God's son and everything God's property, so you enjoyed your father's property, I enjoy but when you encroach on my property I take more you starve or I take you starve my starve-that is irreligious.

If we accept that everything belongs to God, we are sons of God every one of us, even animals, insects, birds bees trees they are all sons of God. So God's property, we are sons of God we have got the right to use but not more than what you require, then it is nice. That is God consciousness.

Guest: I would certainly agree with that but again my own conflict is whether the Krsna consciousness versus other consciousness is…

Prabhupada: Other consciousness is partial and Krsna consciousness is full. Just like other consciousness is.

Guest: Other consciousness partial.

Prabhupada: Just like American national consciousness but that is partial but when you speak of Krsna consciousness that is complete.

Guest: How is it more complete than... Than Hinduism?

Prabhupada: We are talking of God there is no Hindu or Christian. God is for everyone for Hindu Christian for everyone. God is neither Hindu nor Christian.

[break] …and love God it doesn't matter whether you're Christian or Hindu or Muslim or this or that.

Guest: [indistinct] thank you for seeing us.

Guest (2): Thank you for talking to us.

Prabhupada: [aside] give them prasadam. You have got your cards?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Guest: Thank you.

Prabhupada: Give them some.

Svarūpa Damodara: Some? ….

Prabhupada: Whatever you like…

Thank you very much.

Guest: Thank you.

Guest (2): Thank you.

Guest: Hare Krishna. [break] [pause]

Prabhupada: This psychiatric... I have never seen a patient cured by a scientist.

Devotee: [indistinct]

Svarūpa Damodara: I [indistinct] more than that. I think scientists are better than psychiatrists.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarūpa Damodara: [Laughs] they do something good, psychiatrists they just take money from the fools.

Prabhupada: There are many patients who regularly attend psychiatrists.

Svarūpa Damodara: Especially in this country, generally it's a married couples they take their problems so the psychiatrists they just take money from these... people.

Devotee: Very large [indistinct]... Very expensive.

Prabhupada: So no lunch today. [indistinct] 4 o'clock.

Devotee: That strawberry, did you have the strawberry?

Prabhupada: Yes very nice.

Devotee: That was nice? That will keep for a long time, we can have some more of that. Very simple… [end]