Room Conversation with Mr Arnold – August 7, 1971, London

710807R1-LONDON [93:50 Minutes]

Oh, the Britisher has given me so much land

Mr. Arnold: …takes the name of the nearest town.

Prabhupada: So where is that town, eh?

Mr. Arnold: Near the island of Zetland.

Devotees: In the Orkneys.

Prabhupada: Zetland.

Devotees: In the Orkneys.

Prabhupada: But, he was, he was known as Lord Ronaldsay when he was Governor, in Bengal. And later on, when he was seen one of, by one of my Godbrother, he came about thirty years ago, 1935, at that time he was known as Marquis of Zetland. So, the same person, perhaps he was known in India as Lord Zetland, because India, the governors and the viceroys, they're mostly Lords. They are not accustomed to know marquis or this.

Mr. Arnold: Marquis is a, is a higher title.

Prabhupada: [aside: Keep it there, I shall… Keep it.] So this Lord Ronaldsay, he was invited by our principal, because he also happened to be Scotsman. So I was at that time a boy. So he's elderly. At least at that time he was our father's age. He's still alive? No.

Mr. Arnold: The older Lord Zetland, m'lord?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Arnold: No, I don't think so. No. I think he died, and consequently Lord Ronaldsay, and his son, take on the title of Marquis of Zetland.

Prabhupada: He immediately inquired, "How many you have philosophical students?" So our principal replied that this is I.A., I.A. class. So I.A. means Intermediate Art.

Devotee: There's a phone call for Syamasundara.

Syamasundara: Oh, it's Mr. Ambuja.

Prabhupada: So you can call him to come here. We can talk. So our principal said that this is I.A. class; they haven't got philosophy, but most of them have got logic, preliminary philosophy. So he was interested also. "All right, how many you have taken, logic?'' So I was also student [laughing] of logic. In this way we were introduced. But I know, he was very nice gentleman, and fond of Indian philosophy and culture. He studied them. And the Gandhi, during Gandhi's movement, there was a great leader in Calcutta, Shealdah, he was a big lawyer.

So government ordered that he should be arrested. So before arresting, Lord Ronaldsay called him at his house, that "It will be very much painful for me to arrest you. If you kindly give up this movement." So he said, "No, you can arrest me. I cannot give up." So later on he was arrested. But before arresting, he called him at his [laughs]…

A very nice gentleman, but government ordered, what can he do? Another governor, he was Indian. He was the first Indian governor, Lord Sinha. So when he was requested to arrest Gandhi, he immediately resigned: "So you are asking me to arrest? Why not ask some English governor to arrest him?" So he resigned.

Mr. Arnold: I think there's still two Indians…

Prabhupada: Hm?

Mr. Arnold: …who sit in the House of Lords.

Prabhupada: Hm? Indians?

Dhananjaya: Two Indians, MPs.

Mr. Arnold: No, they're titled Lords; they're peers. They sit in the House of Lords.

Prabhupada: Maybe son of Lord Sinha.

Mr. Arnold: Maybe. I wouldn't know.

Prabhupada: Because this is hereditary title.

Mr. Arnold: Yes, m'lord.

Prabhupada: They deposit some money to the government.

Dhananjaya: Someone was saying that the head of the Liberal…

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dhananjaya: The head of the Liberal department was an Indian.

Prabhupada: He may be domiciled here. There are many Indians domiciled.

Dhananjaya: Yes.

Prabhupada: Because, I don't think anyone with the title "Lord" in India, they can become member of the Parliament. Because…, because India is not now… But he may be Commonwealth. But is it, is there any rule that Commonwealth member can become Parliament member?

Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes, there's various people sit in the House of Lords, m'lord, who are not British at all. We've got Australians, New Zealanders.

Prabhupada: But Australia is in, now in, still in touch with England. The Australians, in the stand, the Queen's picture is there.

Mr. Arnold: Yes, oh, yes, but even so, the, their…

Prabhupada: Canadian, they're in touch.

Mr. Arnold: Yeah.

Prabhupada: But India, now, at the present moment, it is simply in name Commonwealth member. Actually, in the matters of governing, there is no…

Mr. Arnold: No, but these people have received their titles for service to the British Empire in the past.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Arnold: And of course it's a hereditary title.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Mr. Arnold: So naturally it hands down from father to son.

Prabhupada: Then how you can be elected?

Mr. Arnold: You can't be elected to this house. It's quite impossible.

Syamasundara: That was Mrs. Ambuja, and she said he'll be back about eight o'clock, and either they'll come directly over here, or they'll call first.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: 6:30 now.

Prabhupada: So we can talk at that time.

Syamasundara: Yeah, okay. [break]

Prabhupada: …Saha. You know him?

Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord.

Prabhupada: Heh?

Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord.

Syamasundara: I don't think he trusts him.

Prabhupada: Oh, it's not…?

Syamasundara: That was pure gold, practically. His, that jewelry is practically pure gold.

Prabhupada: He tested it?

Syamasundara: They had it tested, yeah.

Mr. Arnold: He's off.

Syamasundara: I don't think he trusts him.

Mr. Arnold: He says one thing, and then a few days after he says something else which completely refutes what he said in the first place.

Syamasundara: That's the problem. We have to really work with trustworthy people.

Prabhupada: No, that kind of man cannot help us.

Syamasundara: No, we have to work with very trustworthy men, because it's too big, it's too important.

Dhananjaya: I think he's out for prestige.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: He's out for prestige.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Arnold: Known in this country, m'lord, as a social climber.

Syamasundara: Social climber.

Prabhupada: Oh. Hm. So decide like that, then when he comes, I shall talk with him.

Syamasundara: Ok. I think that…

Prabhupada: We try for that.

Syamasundara: Meanwhile, I could find out where George is. I have a few numbers I want to call to try and find him.

Prabhupada: George, being out of [indistinct], don't count upon him.

Syamasundara: No, but he'll be back soon.

Prabhupada: So, when he comes then we'll… That is different.

Syamasundara: Yeah, and if I know when he's coming, I'll be prepared to see him.

Dhananjaya: We're going on this Bhagavata-saptaha. Should we still…, should we still?

Prabhupada: What? That Bhagavata-saptaha, that is attractive to the Indians, but the Indians have no cooperative feeling. Then what is the use?

Syamasundara: Let us this week find out from different Indian men if they're going to be willing, and next Saturday I'll know for sure.

Dhananjaya: Yes, that's…

Prabhupada: And another thing is that the Indians, they're inclined to keep their Hindu element, hodgepodge-demigods, this, that…

Syamasundara: After they've seen our Deities they'll want to install Radha-Krsna only; that's right.

Dhananjaya: Well. [laughs]

Syamasundara: After they've seen our temple, now they all want to install Radha-Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is out of sentiment.

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupada: They thought that "If Radha-Krsna is there, people will come."

Dhananjaya: Yes. I went, I went to visit them…

Prabhupada: Here is a different atmosphere. That they cannot create.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: That is not possible.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: That requires sincere devotion.

Dhananjaya: Yeah. I went to an installation ceremony.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: I went to an…, I was invited with some other devotees to go to an installation ceremony in a temple in the East End of London, and they were installing Radha-Krsna Deities there, and at the same time they were having a marriage ceremony was going on.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: A marriage ceremony was going on, along with the installation ceremony.

Prabhupada: What is that ceremony? Merge?

Syamasundara: Marriage.

Prabhupada: Marriage.

Dhananjaya: Right.

Prabhupada: This hodgepodge, they…

Dhananjaya: Yes, and there was this, this one, they had this one, like a professional priest was there.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Dhananjaya: And he was saying over again, om bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi, and again and again he'd be saying the first line of Gayatri mantra, like he was chanting japa. And he would start to sing it, and he'd sing louder, and he was cavorting with this microphone, and it was all so…

Prabhupada: Oh. [chuckles] So, how it is going on so that…

Dhananjaya: The same one that…, who gave us these Deities.

Syamasundara: Gave us these Deities.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Dhananjaya: So when Radha and Krsna came here, they ordered more Deities from India, you see, and this was the installation ceremony for these…

Prabhupada: When it was held?

Dhananjaya: This was about two years ago.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: Two years ago.

Syamasundara: It was right after we left, I think.

Dhananjaya: About two years ago.

Prabhupada: How it is going on now?

Dhananjaya: Oh, I don't know. I've never been back.

Syamasundara: They don't have much.

Devotee: It is simply sentimentality.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: Sentimental.

Prabhupada: That's all. Who will go there?

Syamasundara: We went there for a durga-pūjaone night, too. I remember. They dance around the room.

Prabhupada: They take it as recreation.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: There is no philosophy.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: There is no seriousness. Then our is different. We are training people how to become real devotee.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is different.

Dhananjaya: Yes. They're also, they were garlanding the Deities with beads. They were giving Krsna japa beads, [laughs] putting on.

Prabhupada: They're not guided.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Just like they are chanting Gayatri mantra loudly. That is another rascaldom.

Syamasundara: Yeah. Mr. Goyal is a self-appointed guru.

Prabhupada: Oh! He, he wants to become a guru?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Oh, then it is.

Syamasundara: They have ambitions, to be guru.

Dhananjaya: And all these meetings, all these meetings I've been to, they're all saying, "We must remain Hindu. We must not forget our culture. We may be in England, but we are Hindus.'' Like this. "India, she is our real mother, not this England. India, she is our real mother. We must be thinking of India, and to become always thinking of Hindus."

Syamasundara: How to, how to get rupees out of India.

Prabhupada: So therefore it is very difficult to get their cooperation. They're mentality is, they don't want to understand this Krsna philosophy. They want to remain Hindu. Hindu means hodgepodge, that's all. Hindu means hodgepodge.

Dhananjaya: And at the same time…

Prabhupada: Hindu means Sahkara philosophy.

Syamasundara: Sahkara.

Prabhupada: Yes, that God has no form, and you can imagine any form and worship for your material benefit. This is at the present moment. And we said that we are not Hindus. Hindu is a Muhammadan title, given.

Dhananjaya: Muhammadan? [laughing]

Syamasundara: That startles you. You didn't know that?

Dhananjaya: No! [laughing]

Prabhupada: Hindu, there is no such word in the Vedic literature. You won't find this word in Bhagavata, or Bhagavad-gita. The Muhammadans outside India, they used to call the sindhus, sindhu. There is a river, Sindhu river. From Sindhu to Hindu. They cannot speak "s," they call "ha." In this way it is a hodgepodge word, but it has come that Vedic followers as "hindus," but this word is not found in any authorized scripture, no.

Our, our system, culture is varnasrama-dharma. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita, catur-varnyam maya srstam, varna [Bg 4.13]. Varna means four sections: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra. That is real Vedic culture. That Vedic culture can be all over the world. Why in India? We are trying for that, to get the Vedic culture, which is acceptable by everyone. It is meant for everyone.

Syamasundara: So actually Sahkara introduced this five gods…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: …system.

Prabhupada: Sahkara had no universal idea, but still the Sahkarites, they won't accept outside brahmana caste. They won't allow sannyasa unless he's a caste brahmana. It is still going on. That is their strict principle. Now it is dwindling-that is a different thing. But we Vaisnavas, we, according to Bhagavad-gita, whatever one may be, if he takes shelter of Krsna consciousness he's eligible to go back to home, back to Krsna.

Syamasundara: At the Hindu Center they, the only symbol they have is an om, a big omsign, and at the beginning they have a prayer to the omsign.

Prabhupada: Impersonalist.

Dhananjaya: Yes. And their arati ceremonies are terrible.

Syamasundara: Their what?

Dhananjaya: Aratis are terrible.

Prabhupada: Terrible?

Dhananjaya: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: Why is that?

Dhananjaya: "Jaya, om jaya jagadisa hare."

Prabhupada: Oh, that, cry like anything.

Dhananjaya: Yes, and at the end they sing omsanti omsanti santi santi om.

Prabhupada: So, that determination, "We want to remain Hindu," that is the basic principle of their defect. We cannot get any cooperation from them.

Syamasundara: They're…, those are mostly women. There's not many men at these ceremonies.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: Mostly those are women also.

Prabhupada: Must be women, because these men, if they could not understand the philosophy, they are rascals. So now religious sentiment expressed by these women, that's all. That is, that is not our purpose. We want to spread Krsna consciousness throughout the whole world. If we say that "We are Hindus," we may be Hindus, but it is for everyone.

Syamasundara: There's one or two Hindu leaders that are with us.

Prabhupada: Therefore, in India, there are many enemies for me, because I am making brahmanas. They do not like that.

Syamasundara: Oh, then it won't be their property anymore…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: …if it goes out of India.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore, this, I think this Devananda was bright. There are so many things, you see, I don't want to discuss publicly. So I am becoming popular on my own strength. Nobody is helping me.

Syamasundara: That's a fact.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: That's a fact.

Prabhupada: Rather you are helping me; from India I am not getting any help.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: Neither by the government nor by the people.

Syamasundara: So many big men we went to see. Even, even our own American government is helping us more than…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: …the Indian government.

Dhananjaya: Also the BBC. I think BBC is like a father. British Broadcasting Corporation.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dhananjaya: It's very, very helpful. Very much in favor of Krsna consciousness.

Syamasundara: BBC.

Dhananjaya: Yes.

Prabhupada: That's an important organization?

Dhananjaya: Oh, yes.

Syamasundara: Either that or they were…, they're spying on us.

Prabhupada: No, any sane man, he will appreciate.

Dhananjaya: Yes, it's a very intelligent organization.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: BBC, very intelligent.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is government is coming here.

Syamasundara: They acknowledged that they came to Nairobi to take films of you.

Prabhupada: Yes?

Syamasundara: Yeah, they did.

Dhananjaya: And these two radio programs yesterday. They're very important also.

Prabhupada: So, actually we're very important. What is your impression?

Mr. Arnold: Of the, of the programs, my lord? Or…

Prabhupada: No, our, this mission, Krsna consciousness.

Mr. Arnold: I think it's, it's just the thing that is needed at the moment.

Prabhupada: Yes, actually it is so. The, what United Nations could not do, we can do that-provided people agree to our terms. These four terms: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. But that is very difficult.

Mr. Arnold: Very difficult. [laughter]

Prabhupada: We put these terms, that is thunderbolt. That is thunderbolt.

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Syamasundara: Most young people think, "Well I've tried it…"

Prabhupada: The whole Western civilization is based on these principles, and we say break these four pillars [laughing], then come to me. That we don't get many followers. There is this condition. If that, like Maharishi, if I would have said, "Oh, no, you can do whatever you like."

Syamasundara: Oh, you would have millions.

Prabhupada: "Simply pay me 35 dollars, and I give you special mantra." This bluff…

Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell…, sell you a free pass into heaven.

Syamasundara: Indulgences.

Mr. Arnold: In the old, in the old days-indulgences.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: Indulgences. The Catholic Church, they, they used to sell passes into heaven, for you or your family; you pay so much, you get to go to heaven.

Prabhupada: Just see. The Muhammadans also they do. [laughter]. The Aga Khan. He was doing that. If the man dies, so Aga Khan will give a draft. You know draft?

Mr. Arnold: Yes, we know draft.

Prabhupada: So draft will be also within the coffin. So when he goes to hell or heaven…

Syamasundara: He'll have some money.

Prabhupada: He'll get money. Draft. [laughter] And people are paying. You know this Aga Khan's business?

Mr. Arnold: Aga Khan? Yes.

Prabhupada: Aga Khan. He was doing this. He was a guru of a section of Muhammadans, very rich section.

Syamasundara: Nairobi they…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: In Nairobi they were…

Prabhupada: Ah, yes. So… And all the money he was spending in racehorse. Aga Khan had special horse.

Devotee: He has become one of the richest men in the world.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: I used to ski with him in Switzerland.

Prabhupada: And all his officers are Hindus, in Bombay. He never trusted Muhammadans [laughter]. Not only that, Aga Khan, even Muhammadan emperors that…, their all important men were Hindus. Just like Rūpa-Sanatana.

Syamasundara: Ah.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: They were Hindus.

Prabhupada: Rūpa-Sanatana. Huh?

Devotee: They were Muhammadans.

Syamasundara: They were Hindus.

Devotee: Muhammadan government.

Syamasundara: They were brahmanas.

Prabhupada: No. They were brahmanas, but because they accepted ministership from Nawab Hussein Shah, they were rejected from the strict brahmana community: "So you are now servant of a Muhammadan, your, you cannot call yourself a brahmana." That's a fact. So they were rejected. Their names were also changed: Dhabir Khan or Dhabir Khas, and Sakara Mallik.

And they were mixing with big, big Muhammadan chiefs and landlords and, therefore about them Srinivas Acarya has written, tyaktva tūrnam asesa-manḍala-pati-srenim sada tucchavat [Sri Sri Saḍ-gosvamy-astaka 4]: "He gave up the aristocratic society as very insignificant and preferred to become a mendicant." This is the picture. So.

[aside: You can sit down.] They were very big ministers, Caitanya Mahaprabhu made them Gosvami.

They were thrown by the Hindu society, or brahmana society, rejected them, that, "They have become Muhammadan." And actually, just like in our younger days, in our father's time, if one should come to England for education, he has to pass through some prayascitta: shaving the head, and have some big ceremony, and feed the brahmanas and spend so much money-then you will be accepted in the society. Otherwise you cannot enter the society. He went to mleccha-desa, mleccha-desa, and he has eaten meat and he has mixed with so many, so he will not be accepted.

Syamasundara: He had to be repurified.

Prabhupada: Yes. So one of our community men, so he became barrister, and when he went back, so he was asked by the brahmanas, that "You must undergo this prayascitta ceremony."

Dhananjaya: Because he had associated with…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dhananjaya: …Muhammadans.

Syamasundara: Englishmen, Englishmen.

Dhananjaya: Englishmen?

Syamasundara: Englishmen.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: He's using an example from his early boyhood.

Prabhupada: So he became so sorry that he went to take bath in the Ganges and drowned himself, committed suicide. Another, he was also college man, he later on became a very big doctor, Dr. R. L. Dutta, M.D. He also came for education, medical education, here. When he went back, all his father-not father-mother requested, "My dear boy, you have to do this otherwise you will be extricated from the society."

So he decided that "I shall leave this society." So, to… Mother unwillingly granted him permission: "Then you go out. Otherwise our whole family will be extricated." So he simply asked his wife, "Whether you want to go with me or remain here?" She said, "I am your wife. I must go where you go."

So the husband and wife went away, and later on they accepted…, they rejected Hindu religion, they became Brahmo. At that time Brahmo religion was going on. Brahmo religion means… Ramananda, he was also Ramananda Raya, so he introduced a system of Brahmo religion on the basis of impersonal worship of Upanisad. Same church, Rabindranath Tagore's. You know Rabindranatha Tagore's name?

Mr. Arnold: Tagore?

Prabhupada: Tagore, the big poet.

Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: His father, his father introduced. So he became a Brahmo. They don't worship deities. Impersonal. And they can eat anything, whatever they like. The real facility was that they want to eat meat, pigs, or wine. That would not be allowed. You see? Indians, they did not know how to drink. It was either Hindus or Muhammadans. Amongst the Muhammadans, drinking is a great sin, is it not?

Mr. Arnold: Still.

Prabhupada: Yes. Still. They don't drink. That's a great sin. Similarly Hindu.

Dhananjaya: I believe this is introduced by the English.

Prabhupada: Huh? Yes.

Dhananjaya: This drinking is introduced by the English.

Prabhupada: Yes. They did not know how to drink tea even. Yes.

Mr. Arnold: Gosh.

Prabhupada: Society girls or meat-eating or drinking tea-these things were introduced by the Englishmen. They did not know.

Devotee: This is Clive?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: This is Lord Clive?

Prabhupada: No, after Lord Clive. Lord Clive was in the beginning. He established the British rule there, by cheating Nawab Siraj Daula. So after Lord Clive, then Lord Hastings.

Devotee: Hastings.

Syamasundara: Hastings Street in Calcutta.

Prabhupada: Yes. He was, what is called, Hastings, that big speaker, Burke? When a man is chastised in Parliament, what is called?

Dhananjaya: Chief Whip.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: When a man is chastised.

Mr. Arnold: No, no, not whip, not whip. A man's…, Mr. Speaker, you mean?

Prabhupada: Not Speaker.

Syamasundara: If a man is chastised in Parliament, what is the name?

What is the term they use?

Mr. Arnold: They withdraw the whip. If he's chastised.

Prabhupada: There is a technical.

Mr. Arnold: Well, they call it…, it's chastised, which means to say that when they withdraw the whip, he then has to leave the house for so long until the whip is restored. They're not allowed to sit without the whip.

Prabhupada: Impeachment, yes.

Syamasundara: Impeachment.

Prabhupada: Impeachment of Warren Hasting. That's a big book.

Syamasundara: Oh. The American president.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: There was an American president named Warren Hastings.

Mr. Arnold: No, there was this Lord Hastings in India.

Syamasundara: Oh, Lord Hastings.

Prabhupada: Impeachment of… He was Warren Hastings, Lord Hastings. He was impeached by one Mr. Burke. So his writings we read, we had prescribed.

Syamasundara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: Burke's speeches, some Englishman's speeches, out of them.

Syamasundara: Edmund Burke.

Prabhupada: Edmund Burke, yes. So he impeached this Warren Hastings for his misbehavior in India.

Dhananjaya: So he was so notorious.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: He was so notorious.

Prabhupada: Everyone was… I think it was so in the Parliament.

Mr. Arnold: But Hastings, my lord, surely was trying to be a decent fellow, wasn't he, and uh… [someone laughs] No, he really was, and I am, how I understand it, first of all the whole Indian subcontinent was being sort of taken for a ride by English people out there, you know. They were really trying to make themselves very rich, very quick, and the, and the Parliament in London, they got so scared that they, they first of all removed many of these people, and replaced them by…

Prabhupada: That is natural, if you are in important post, then you take bribe.

Mr. Arnold: Yeah, this is why they put Hastings there. But Hastings…

Prabhupada: Well Hastings, all the governors used to do it.

Mr. Arnold: Yeah.

Prabhupada: The system was, if some presentation was given to the governor or viceroy, it was to be not his personal property. It was kept as government property. So, these governors made a trick that the presentation may be given to his wife. So it was not government's property; it was the governor's wife property. [laughter] These things are going on.

Syamasundara: I remember the story you told us once about an Englishman, and that man wouldn't let him sit on his bench.

Prabhupada: Yes, in our childhood we have seen it. Even Lord Clive. Lord Clive, at that time there was, when he cheated Siraj Daula. Now he wanted to establish, he wanted to construct Calcutta city. So he wanted some money. So he approached one Indian banker, Sukhamaya Raya. Sukhamaya Raya, at that time Clive was giving facilities, who were helping them. The modern aristocracy in Calcutta was practically made by the Britishers.

They used to give titles, that's all. And give land, and that land is Indian land. So if I, if I say, "You can go and take as much land as you like," well what is the loss of the Britishers? But that man became very obliged: "Oh, the Britisher has given me so much land.'' [laughter] This was false. I take from Mr. Arnold's pocket, and I pay you. You think, "Oh, Swamijiis so liberal." [laughter] You do not care that I have pick-pocketed your own man. This was going on.

But they did not take any money from England. Rather, they brought all the money from India here. Yes. So the foolish person, they thought that "As soon we meet any Englishmen, I become rich." Sahib subha. Sahib subha. Sahib subha: As soon as you become a friend of any nice Englishman, your fortune is start. And that was being done [laughter]. That was being done, because they wanted men. That anyone knew, every city, he's immediately given some important post.

Syamasundara: Civil Service.

Prabhupada: Yes. A little English knowledge.

Dhananjaya: And a title.

Prabhupada: Some title and money. But they want some clerks, they want some helper. So people began to learn English, and… But they didn't want to give high education. No. Simply to become clerks. So one gentleman, Motilal Sil, he was very rich man, so he saw that "Now English education is very important." So he wanted to start a college, for free education, so that poor man may take English.

Because India was poor, so they could not pay for education. The government stopped: "No, you cannot give free higher education.'' The government did not want, because the government knew that as the, as soon as these people will be highly educated, they will read history, [laughter] and they will know how to…, they will know how to revolt, how to fight. And actually that became.

Devotee: That happened. That happened.

Prabhupada: They did not want to open the secret.

Syamasundara: Yeah, I'll bet they…, I'll bet they didn't know England was a small island, either.

Prabhupada: Ah. [laughter] And, and somebody goes, he goes, he's near some village, he becomes Lord [indistinct], Lord this, Lord that, but "Where is your Lordship's…? You have got so small village." But they wanted to keep their prestige. That was the point. That Gandhi broke this prestige, false prestige. Otherwise, "Oh, Englishmen, they're coming from heaven." [laughter] And they maintained that prestige, somehow or other.

Devotee: Chums for a little village.

Prabhupada: Ahah. [laughs] So, and Indians, and there was a Lord Macaulay's note, what is called, that "If you want to keep these Indians in their original culture, you'll not be able to rule over them." Therefore they wanted to kill the Indian culture. And they did it.

Syamasundara: Dr. Radhakrishnan?

Prabhupada: Yes, that such a fool, you see.

Syamasundara: Made President, wasn't he?

Prabhupada: They regularly maintained this, I mean to say, standard, that "Anything Indian is, it is primitive, it is useless. Now we are becoming civilized, under our country." That impression was created. So they liked. Then you must drink. You must drink tea, you must drink wine, you must become, dress like European.

Dhananjaya: Refined. You must become refined.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: You must become refined, like an Englishman.

Prabhupada: Yes. That was in India. Anyone who becomes, imitate, a respectable Englishman, he's considered gentleman.

Syamasundara: Imitate.

Prabhupada: Imitate. Others, Parsis-you know Parsis-they imitate cent per cent.

Syamasundara: Is there a white, whitish color.

Prabhupada: Yes, they are whitish color also.

Devotee: [enters room] Hare Krsna. There is a Dr. Sharma.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: A Dr. Sharma

Prabhupada: He's here?

Mr. Arnold: Or Shah?

Devotee: I'm not sure.

Syamasundara: Who is he?

Mr. Arnold: There were…, I don't know a Dr. Sharma, but there were two Doctors.

Devotee: Not Dr. Sharma, Mr. Sharma.

Mr. Arnold: Mr. Sharma, ah.

Syamasundara: Probably Mrs. Sharma's…, you know Carl Road? Anyway.

Mr. Arnold: We have one hundred and eight people, so I don't know them all personally.

Syamasundara: Mr. Arnold has started a guild, Hare Krsna Guild?

Dhananjaya: Guild of the Radha-Krsna Temple. I sent you a lotus badge.

Prabhupada: Oh, I think that you sent me one.

Syamasundara: Yes, he sent one badge for how much, they charge? One pound?

Dhananjaya: At least one pound.

Syamasundara: So we're building up many supporters.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Syamasundara: They don't pay much, but at least they're…

Prabhupada: So you are distributing among Indians or Englishmen?

Dhananjaya: Everyone.

Mr. Arnold: Everyone.

Dhananjaya: Anyone who wants to.

Mr. Arnold: The, the main idea, my lord, is so that we can find out exactly what they can do.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is a good idea.

Mr. Arnold: Whether they can paint windows, or wash floors, or then consequently when we do get a very nice little temple.

Prabhupada: And our real point was that, how the, in the beginning, the Indians treated the Englishmen. The Lord Clive, he wanted some money. So he approached that Sukhamaya Raya, he was very rich man, banker. So his secretary or his doorman informed-he was upstairs-that "Some Englishman has come to see you." "Oh, Englishman? Don't allow him to enter the house." [laughter] "Let him sit down on the door. I am coming. I am coming. Don't bring him here." That was the position. So he came. He came down. He was very rich man.

This Lord Clive wanted to go and see him. He said his doorman, "Don't allow him to enter the door." [laughs] "Let him sit down on the door; I am coming." So he came. So he introduced, that "I am Clive." At that time he might not have been Lord Clive; anyway. "Yes, yes. I have heard your name." He was speaking in Bengali, interpreted.

"So what do you want?" "Now, we want some money. We shall return you very soon with interest." So he said, "Yes, I'll give you money. I know you are good man." Because at that time people were not very much satisfied with the rulings of Siraj Daula. So this Siraj Daula was killed by Clive's intrigue. So some of the people, they liked.

Dhananjaya: So he wasn't a Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: He wasn't Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Who?

Dhananjaya: This Siraj Daula

Prabhupada: Siraj Daula was a Muhammadan.

Dhananjaya: Muhammadan?

Prabhupada: Yes. His only fault…, he was a good governor, a good ruler, but these Muhammadans are very much woman-hunter. As soon as there is some beautiful woman, "Bring him…, bring her." This was going on. So this Sukhamaya Raya advanced money to Lord Clive, and when everything was settled up, he was given vast land and the title "king."

Syamasundara: The banker?

Prabhupada: Huh? The banker, yes. [laughter] Similarly, Raja Nava Kumar, he was a clerk of type, but he helped, so he was also given land and the title "king." Raja Nava Kumar Raya. They so [indistinct] their family. So in this way the Britishers created the Zamindars, land…, land…, landholders.

Syamasundara: Oh, they created them.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Before that there was no…

Prabhupada: Lord Cornwallis.

Syamasundara: Before that there was no kings or small…

Prabhupada: No, there were kings…

[break] …that is Lord Curzon's advice, that India, send one of the Royal Family member and become King here.

Dhananjaya: That didn't happen though.

Prabhupada: Oh, no. This Parliament interfered. They wanted to bring all money from us. If the Britishers would have ruled, that rule, their administration was very much appreciated, but later on it become exploitation.

If the king of England would have ruled the other parts of the world as King, for the benefit of the local people, the British Empire would have continued for long. That was their mistake. It was very nice program, the British Empire. They had very good administration; that everyone admits. But later on the administration became too expert for English people.

If they had ruled over the area for the benefit of the people…. That is the king's duty. As King, as it is Vedic principle, King should give protection to the citizens, make them religious, make them upright. That is King's duty, not that simply collect tax and think that "This property's mine," and spend it as he likes. Of course, in England also, because when the king was doing like that, that Cromwell introduced this parliamentary system.

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Prabhupada: And the king James, he was…

Mr. Arnold: Executed.

Prabhupada: Executed. Now it is by simply name, "King," it has power. His Majesty, Her Majesty has no power. So this British Empire was very nicely planned, and it was desire of God, but later on they make this policy, exploitation; therefore it failed. That is my opinion.

Syamasundara: The only, the only thing I could see that they did good is that they gave English, so that you could come to us in the West-so Your Divine Grace could come here and give us Vaisnavism, Vaisnava philosophy.

Prabhupada: So, that was possible even at that time. But they would not accept.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: When India was dependent, they would not accept anything from India; then their prestige is gone. Here, as I told you, when my Godbrother came, Lord Wellington, his wife, Lady Wellington… Lord Wellington, he was Viceroy. So there was some introduction later. So Lady Wellington challenged our Godbrother, "Swamiji, your men come here. We educate them, give some title, and they go to India, become very big man, important man. So what you have got to teach us?'' She challenged him like that. They are not prepared to take anything Indian, or give any importance.

Dhananjaya: They're thinking you're second or third class.

Prabhupada: No. They knew they're first class, but they would not allow to become first class. Otherwise their prestige is gone. They were teaching that "Anything, whatever you've got, that is all third class. Take from us. That is first class." This was the impression.

Syamasundara: Indians are so mild mannered and gentle that they didn't resist.

Prabhupada: No. There is another illusion. If you become supporter of the British rule, you get profit. The British say, "We'll give you land-your land," [laughter] "give you title." So the British businessman, he'll make him chief salesman. [laughter] Chief salesman means any way, they will sell their goods.

The chiefs are just like Motilal Sil, he was chief salesman of seven British business houses, but they cannot approach the local customers; they require the help of a broker. But the broker thinks, "Oh, these Englishmen has made me big man."

Syamasundara: Like Sir Padampat Singhania? He got "Sir" title from the British.

Prabhupada: Yes, that he got because he contributed large sum of money during war fund. So in the commission, not only he, many rich men, got this "Sir" title, because they contributed enough money for prosecuting this war affair.

Devotee: Was the Indian government in agreement with this?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: The Indian government, did they agree with this? All this?

Prabhupada: The Indian government is British government at that time.

Syamasundara: There wasn't any Indian government.

Prabhupada: The India was forced to join the war, by British, British government.

Syamasundara: Pakistan…

Prabhupada: And then they utilized Indian soldiers, the Sikh soldier. The India had no hand. And this Mr. Singhania, he supported this, so he was made Lord. So these are politics.

Syamasundara: Actually, I think that even the word "Sir" comes from Sri, doesn't it?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: The word "Sir", English word "Sir," doesn't that come from Sri, Sanskrit Sri?

Prabhupada: Now, that I do not know. "Sir" means gentleman. "Sir" means knight.

Mr. Arnold: "Sir" is a knight. Monsieur. It comes from French.

Syamasundara: I thought it came from Sanskrit, Sri.

Mr. Arnold: It could possibly come from… But "Sir" was being used in the West for centuries.

Prabhupada: So where is that Sharma?

Devotee: Oh, they went down to arati.

Syamasundara: Yeah, but the original inhabitants of Britain came from India.

Mr. Arnold: Well, this is a… [laughs] But, uh, there's two, there's two…

Syamasundara: Is that right, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: The original inhabitants of Europe and Britain came from India? Aryan, Aryan tribes?

Prabhupada: No, no.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: No. Originally Aryan came from India.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: That is in Greece, Turkey, and then gradually I think…

Syamasundara: Hun?

Prabhupada: …Romans came to England.

Syamasundara: But there was Huns. Before that there was Huns, and you mentioned others from Bhagavatam, Pulinda, Huns, Mongols, Saxons and…

Prabhupada: So Europe, mixed up. Not pure Aryans.

Syamasundara: Yeah, but they, they came from that part, didn't they, India, the…

Prabhupada: No, no. Huns were in this side, European side.

Dhananjaya: We were also…

Prabhupada: North, north of Russia, still they're Huns. Kirata-hūnandhra. Kirata means the Africans. So the Europeans, originally Indian ksatriyas, some of them came to this side, being afraid of being killed by Parasurama. Ksatriya-rudhira-maye jagad-apagata-papam [Sri Dasavatara-stotra 6]. He was, twenty-one times killed all the ksatriyas.

Hamsadūta: What does that mean, twenty-one times? You mean they took birth again, and then He…

Prabhupada: No, no. Twenty-one times there's seven years war.

Hamsadūta: Seven…, twenty-one wars. Campaigns.

Prabhupada: Yes. So at that time some of them fled from, and settled up here.

Syamasundara: Because they call our English language an Indo-Aryan language. That means they find many of the roots in Sanskrit words.

Prabhupada: Sanskrit. Sanskrit, the Professor Rowe, he was Professor in Sanskrit, in Presidency College. He has his grammar, Rowe and Wade. We read that grammar. In that grammar he has written that "Sanskrit is the mother of all languages." He has written. And your European language, from Latin, Latin is also originated from Sanskrit. Just like matri sabdha, this is Sanskrit. Like Latin mater.

Dhananjaya: Mother.

Prabhupada: Pitri sabdha.

Dhananjaya: Father.

Prabhupada: Father. Pita.

Dhananjaya: Pata.

Prabhupada: Pata. Like that.

Dhananjaya: Pata, patri.

Prabhupada: The original "father" and "mother," that is derived from Sanskrit.

Syamasundara: And in the Teutonic languages also, German languages, like atma means to breath, still. Atma, "to breath."

Prabhupada: And there is one book, Aquarian Gospel? There it is mentioned that Christo, this is a Greek word. But krista is a perverted representation of krsna. In India also, still, we call, if one's name is Krsna, we call Krista, still. My younger brother's name is Krsna, so we we were, we were calling him by the name Krista.

"Krista!" Not Krista-"Kesta." And from this word krista, the Christ has come. So this Christian religion has got a link with Krsna. And Jesus Christ went to India. He remained there for twelve years. That Aquarian Gospel writes; I do not know. You have read that book?

Mr. Arnold: Not at all.

Prabhupada: He resided in Jagannatha temple.

Hamsadūta: I've read it.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Hamsadūta: I read that book.

Prabhupada: You have read it, that's it. But there was some misunderstanding; therefore left Jagannatha temple. He went to Buddhist temple in Katmandu. So at that time he received one letter, his father and mother died, when he was staying in India. So Jesus Christ remained for a considerable years in India.

Syamasundara: Yeah. There's a whole period of his life, where there's nothing known…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: …about him, about his movements.

Prabhupada: Then he started his preaching here. And in the beginning of his life, he was horrified when the Jews were killing birds in the Synagogue. He was horrified. So how Jesus Christ will allow animal killing? And therefore he said, "Thou shalt not kill." From his life, from his other information, he was not for killing. He was not for killing.

Mr. Arnold: He did…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: …on two occasions cause the death of fish, my lord.

Prabhupada: One thing is, might have done when there was no other means of eating. This is one point, so far I study. Another thing is that what was the purpose, or even there is no purpose, he was so powerful, he could do that. But we should follow the instruction of Jesus Christ; we should not imitate him.

Syamasundara: There's some doubt whether that word has been translated from the original language properly.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: There's some doubt whether our word "fish" is the proper translation for that word in the original.

Prabhupada: Many…, but in the common men, it is clearly said, "Thou shalt not kill.'' That is, that you have to accept. That even Jesus Christ ate some fish or some…, that maybe some special circumstances.

Mr. Arnold: The breaking of the bread; the feeding of the five thousand-two small loaves, fishes, certain fishes.

Dhananjaya: Five loaves and two fishes.

Syamasundara: I read a book put out by the Vegetarian Society that said that, that word was translated from the Greek copy of the Aramaic, and in the Greek, that word means a loaf of bread made of some kind of seaweed that grows in Galilee, a kind of sea…

Prabhupada: That may be interpretation. But without interpretation, if you have to accept the Ten Commandments, how you can kill? There is no such chance of killing. And other statement that he gave, that the animals are given under the…

Syamasundara: Dominion.

Prabhupada: …dominion of man. That does not mean they are meant for killing. Just like Nanda Maharaja, Krsna's foster father, he was maintaining 900,000 cows, giving protection. And it is the duty of the vaisya community, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg 18.44]. There are three different types of occupation: agriculture, cow protection and trade.

That is called vaisya. So, giving the animals under the human being means protection, not for killing. Suppose if you give…, you give your child to some gentleman, that "I am going; you take care of this child,'' it does not mean that the child has to be killed. So I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed. I don't.

Hamsadūta: In the very, very first pages of the Bible it says when Lord created the Earth and everything, and then He says, "The seed-bearing plants of the earth shall be your meat, and strictly forbidden to eat other things." It says very clearly what they shall eat.

Prabhupada: Besides that, Lord Jesus Christ says that you should…, well-behaved with your neighbor, what is that?

Mr. Arnold: "One should love thy neighbor as thyself."

Prabhupada: Thyself?

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Prabhupada: So, in broader sense now, there are many animals, they're also our neighbor, the domestic animals. So Lord Jesus Christ cannot say that your human being are neighbors; they are not your neighbors. And he was horrified when animals and birds are being killed in the Jews' Synagogue. That is… So one who is horrified for killing, and he specifically accepted, "Thou shalt not kill." I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed.

Mr. Arnold: But it's such a long-accepted practice now, my lord.

Prabhupada: That is different thing.

Mr. Arnold: Very difficult.

Prabhupada: That is different. That is different. You are practiced to something; that is different thing. But when you talk of Christian religion, I don't think killing can be allowed. And besides that, any religion, killing is barbarian. Killing is barbarian. When you talk of religion, there cannot be any killing.

Syamasundara: Krsna says, "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come."

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: Krsna says, "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come."

Prabhupada: Yes. So far Muhammadan religion is concerned, that is also killing restricted, and they had no other ways. It is desert.

Devotee: But that's a very…

Prabhupada: Another thing, even killing of animal is required for sacrifice, the Vedic religion also allow-but not cow. These goats, they are allowed. The meat-eater, under restriction, they can eat goats. But not the higher caste. The brahmana, ksatriya, vaisyas, they would not. The lowest class, the sūdras, or lower than that, they used to kill. But not cows, because cow is very important animal.

Dhananjaya: I remember once also…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: …on a walk in Mr. John Lennon's estate, you were speaking about how when the old cows and old bulls die, then the mucis, the cobblers, after taking off their skin…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dhananjaya: …then they could take.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dhananjaya: But not before.

Prabhupada: No, no, no, no.

Dhananjaya: Not before.

Prabhupada: No, it is not very wise to kill cow. But if you want cow's skin, there is guarantee. Anyone will die; you get the skin. And if you want to eat, then at the time when it dies, you can eat. So why you should kill? Killing means economic loss. The cows, while living, is giving the nicest food-milk. And so long you get nice milk, you can prepare so many nutritious foodstuff, from cow's milk.

Hamsadūta: Fertilizer you can get, too.

Prabhupada: Fertilizer. Cow dung. Cow's urine is also so, I mean, antiseptic. So the meat-eaters may, if they're insisting. First, first of all, nobody should eat meat. All right, if there is a class of men, they want eating meat, but they can eat. Just like they're eating hogs, or goats.

Hamsadūta: Hunting for things.

Prabhupada: Hunting other animals. But cow especially must be protected, for society's good. Must be protected-from gratitude. We are drinking milk of cow. How we can kill our mother? From all considerations, especially cow protection must be there. That is the duty of the vaisyas, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam.

Cow protection is especially mentioned. And the cow blood, the milk is nothing but blood. So you get more vitamin value by drinking milk than eating, drinking, cow blood. From all points of view, cow protection must be there. That is human civilization. From all points of view.

Syamasundara: And they eat garbage. They don't eat…, it's not that they're going to eat very much. They eat garbage or any grass.

Prabhupada: No, that is our…, because of want of food. They should be given nice food. One nice food.

Mr. Arnold: Grass.

Prabhupada: You take the paddies of the wheat, and you give him the grass. You take the pulp of the fruit, and you give the skin. You take the plantain, banana, the inside pulp, and you give him the skin. So there is always share, and the cow, taking the rejected portion, is supplying you milk. You cannot avoid milk, but on account of this sinful activity, milk supplies will be stopped. There will be no more milk. That is stated in the Bhagavatam.

Syamasundara: If they have no mercy for the cow, what to speak of other humans, now they're killing the…

Prabhupada: They have no mercy. There is no question of mercy. And they cannot be devotion also, animal killers. According to our conception, every living entity is part and parcel of God. So suppose God…, in Christian religion also it is accepted, "father." So the father has got so many children. Some of them are animals, some of them are trees, some of them are human beings, some of them are insects, some of them… Like that-8,400,000 species.

Krsna claims sarva-yonisu kaunteya: "In all species of life, as many forms are there," sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yaḥ [Bg 14.4]. Mūrtayaḥ means "forms." In all species of life. He does not say simply human form-all forms. And Krsna's picture, you see, is…, as loving… Where is that picture you showed me?

Hamsadūta: He's always with the cow.

Prabhupada: Ah, He is embracing.

Hamsadūta: The cow in the back

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Arnold: I have one also.

Prabhupada: So He has personally taught us how to treat with cow. He began a cowherds boy, and His business was go early in the morning to take care of the cows and go in the forest.

Dhananjaya: And also, of course, when He was, when He was in danger after, after killing Pūtana, then all the women came, bathed with urine…

Prabhupada: Yes, the ladies, Yasoda and other ladies took Him to the cow dung, and cow's tail, like that, so that inauspicity may go. So cow has been given very importance position. And practically we see, we are drinking cow's milk still. Still also many dairy farms are going on. So cow killing in human society cannot be supported.

Cannot be supported. In…, during Emperor Akbar's time, one poet wrote a poetry presenting to the emperor about the cow's appealing, that "I am doing this, I am doing this, I am doing this. I am simply eating grass, and I don't encroach upon your foodstuff, but still I give you so nice food that your children lives on this, and when I die, I give my skin, I give my hoof. I am so serviceable. I am willing to serve you, and still you are killing me.'' The substance of the poetry is there, and when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped cow killing: "No. No more cow killing."

Hamsadūta: Which king was that?

Prabhupada: Huh? Akbar. The first Mogul emperor. He simply presented this poetry, had the cow appealing, that "I am giving so much service-not only living time, even after my death. Still you are killing me. And you call yourself civilized." So when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped. In Afghanistan still, there is no cow killing. Afghanistan.

Syamasundara: That's a Muhammadan country, isn't it?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. And long ago I was coming from Kashmir, one Muhammadan gentlemen was my fellow passenger, so when he called for that restaurant man, so he was whispering, "Don't…, is it cow's flesh?'' "Well, no, no, no, it is not.'' So there are many Muhammadans, they won't touch cow's flesh. Still, in India. There are many vegetarian also.

Syamasundara: Many signs in the restaurants, "No beef."

Prabhupada: Yes. So for civilized society, cow killing must be stopped. It is a great sin. From all points of view-from economic point of view, from religious point of view, from social point of view.

Dhananjaya: That's a big task.

Syamasundara: Everybody thinks that there's no, we have no reason to not kill cows, that we're simply sentimental, the Indians or the Vaisnavas.

Prabhupada: Sentiment, yes. Do you think this sentiment is bad? You are drinking milk, and cow is accepted as mother. Is this sentiment? Is it sentiment? You drink one's milk, and you consider that animal as ordinary animal. How you are civilized? According to Vedic civilization, even, just like Krsna, because He drank the milk of Pūtana, He took him as mother, although she came to poison Krsna. Krsna took the bright side, that "Whatever he" [laughter] "she, she might have done, I have sucked her breast. Oh, she has become My mother. She should get the exact position like My mother.'' This is sentiment.

Hamsadūta: You know one of their arguments is that if we don't kill the cow, there'll be over-population. They say.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Hamsadūta: Yes, they say about the cows that if we did not have slaughterhouses to kill these cows, there would be so many cows they would take up everything. This, this is the kind of argument. Really. I'm serious. They say.

Dhananjaya: That's demonic thinking.

Prabhupada: The rascals, they do not understand they will be oversupplied of milk, he will be happy. [laughing]

Syamasundara: Everything will be adjusted.

Prabhupada: You'll get more rasgullas. [laughter] Ghee.

Dhananjaya: Cream.

Prabhupada: Cream, so many things.

Syamasundara: They're actually bred anyway, the cows. Artificial insemination is what makes so many cows. Our cows at New Vrindavan are born from artificial insemination. They take the sperm…

Prabhupada: They, they want for food. They want to kill.

Hamsadūta: The people are not…, they don't…., they don't even like milk, these people, at least in Germany. They give the milk to the hogs in Germany. They give. But we sometimes go to a farm, you know, and they say, "Oh, and we have just given all the milk to the hogs."

Mr. Arnold: They take the cream off first.

Hamsadūta: They said, "We ourselves, we don't, we hardly ever drink milk. We take a little for our coffee, for the cream, but the rest we give to the hog, or we sell to the dairy."

Syamasundara: They make it into cheese that tastes like meat, smells like meat. Make it into cheese.

Hamsadūta: Most people don't drink too much milk. The younger children, the children drink the milk, but once they get past sixteen years old, they don't take much milk anymore.

Prabhupada: That means beginning of life is from milk. If there was no milk, how your children would live?

Syamasundara: Even in Russia the babies were drinking milk.

Prabhupada: So still you're killing. No. There is no reason for cow killing.

Syamasundara: In fact, a cow that eats grass, it only bites it off; it doesn't pull the roots. The grass grows back, and it's harmless. But the goats, they pull the grass up by the root. No grass can grow there anymore.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Syamasundara: So actually in North Africa, it used to be very verdant, very fertile land, and from so many thousands of years of grazing goats-I read an article in a science magazine-it's depleted the soil. No grass grows there now. It's desert, desert country mostly. The Muhammadans introduced goats, and those goats have eaten all the grass. It won't grow back.

Dhananjaya: But before them there were cows, because that's when Maharaja Pariksit was traveling in his kingdom, and Kali personified was…

Syamasundara: North Africa?

Dhananjaya: Yes.

Syamasundara: Yeah, originally it was very fertile, even in Roman times. Carthaginian.

Prabhupada: Cow dung is a fertilization. Any, any stool is fertilizer. So passing stool in the field, that is, stool is utilized for some purpose. Now in the cities, we are passing so much stool, it is being spoiled. [laughter] No, there was scientific estimation, that we are losing so many, so much quantity of fat and hypophosphite, and this, like that.

Mr. Arnold: Did you see the article today in the paper, my lord, that uh…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: …one borough council was giving farmers, and all the various people, free fertilizers that was in fact, was made from the human's excreta, and the scientists were finding that there was vast deposits of mercury and lead. In fact it was killing the land, and it was being taken from humans.

Prabhupada: In stool?

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Prabhupada: No. In Germany they attempted to extract fat from stool, and they did it. They collected all stool, and by chemical process extracted fat from it. And from practical experience stool is very substantial food, vitamin A, B, C, D. [laughter] You see the hogs, they eat, they become very quickly fat. [laughter]

Because human being, eating all valuable foodstuff, they cannot digest; so that is passing into stool. So all the feed values are there. So better the scientist make some research. And they made, German scientist, and they extracted fat from stool. I do not know if they're still doing. [laughter] You know, you know better.

Hamsadūta: I don't know about it.

Mr. Arnold: Then the scientists, the German scientists anyway, have made very fine meat from wood. Hauptsfleisch they called it.

Syamasundara: When was this?

Mr. Arnold: They were selling this during the war, in tins.

Syamasundara: Out of wood?

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Syamasundara: The Germans?

Mr. Arnold: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Then why not take vegetable?

Mr. Arnold: Yes, but, you know the American Spam stuff? Well, when we were in the army, of course, we got cut off, you know, and we was eating anything.

Prabhupada: So, that Mr. Sharma can come. Let him come in. Yes. He wanted to see me.

Mr. Arnold: Well, can I be excused, my lord, for a little while? Go and see my wife? She's downstairs.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: Can I be excused?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Syamasundara: She can come up here.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Syamasundara: Later.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Let her come. Oh, you can, you can go, bring her. [to new guest:] You sit down. He is going, he is going.

Mr. Arnold: Well, I'd like change, my lord, too, because I've out since…

Prabhupada: All right, all right, all right.

Dhananjaya: Should I bring his wife?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Hamsadūta: He's just coming. [break]

Prabhupada: …be introduced to the human society. They will be saved.

Dhananjaya: There's, there's some very nice land still in England that could be used for, for a nice asrama, country asrama. There's some very nice land still. In Devon, in the West Country of England, in Wales. Scotland also.

Prabhupada: When people understand that we are doing something very important, they will cooperate. It is our duty to convince them.

Syamasundara: Intelligent men like Mr. Arnold are many. They can understand through philosophy, if we just give it.

Prabhupada: Mr. Arnold can preach amongst…

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: …gentlemen-class men.

Syamasundara: When he becomes more and more…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: …convinced. He's a wonderful man.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Very logical, and cool-headed.

Prabhupada: [knock on door; people enter and Prabhupada greets] Yes?

Dhananjaya: Would you like the fire on, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhananjaya: Would you like the fire on?

Prabhupada: What is that? You should come.

Syamasundara: Fire, do you want the fire on?

Prabhupada: I don't want. [Hindi, talking with guest]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupada: We want a big hall.

Guest: [Hindi] and I have to buy another hall, big place in Kingsway, for few months back.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Guest: Few months back.

Prabhupada: Jaya.

Guest: But I think they were wanting much more money. We could not afford to pay that much.

Prabhupada: [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi] Actually I started coming only few months back.

Prabhupada: [Mrs. Arnold enters] How are you?

Mrs. Arnold: Very well, thank you. Very nice.

Prabhupada: [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi].

Prabhupada: If Pakistan [Hindi] and we can make the whole world Hindustan. [Hindi]

Guest: Tikhe.

Prabhupada: [Hindi]

Guest: Tikhe.

Prabhupada: [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupada: And why don't you take this opportunity to make the whole world Hindustan?

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupada: I'm doing that.

Guest: Hindi

Prabhupada: I'm claiming the whole world is Bharata-varsa. Last night's…, you were present last night?

Guest: Actually, I'm staying over thirty miles from this place.

Prabhupada: Oh. I told that, that whole world was Bharata, Bharata-varsa.

Guest: Yeah.

Prabhupada: You remember?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: So I'm claiming the whole world Bharata-varsa, and whole world Vedic culture.

Guest: Tikhe.

Prabhupada: And whole world's God is one-Krsna.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupada: So why don't you help us?

Guest: Yeah.

Prabhupada: I do not know why the Hindus, they are not, they are not coming, in my cooperation. They are so much downtrodden.

Guest: That's right. [Hindi]

Prabhupada: [Hindi]

Guest: [Hindi]

Prabhupada: [Hindi] I can challenge all these rascals. They come to earn some money. These so-called Bhagavata reader, and these, and Swami, and… They come to earn some money. They do not want that this culture should be spread, neither they know how to spread it.

Guest: Yes. That's right.

Prabhupada: [Hindi] I've used some strong word, but it is with great regret. That so many Indians there are, they are not coming to my cooperation.

Guest: That's right. [Hindi] Not so much as we should.

Prabhupada: That we have contested. We want immediately. We cannot expect monetary help from others.

Guest: Actually.

Prabhupada: You see.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupada: But they are still giving us so much help, these European boys and American boys.

Guest: Yeah, they are doing a lot more.

Prabhupada: Not a single Indian coming.

Guest: Yeah. That I do realize, because I started coming this temple about six months back. So I went through some of the literature which I got from Oxford Street in the beginning, before, when I came from India.

Prabhupada: That is my plight, you see.

Guest: And I was…

Prabhupada: I don't get any Indian, Hindu cooperation, in such a big movement.

Guest: So I thought that we Indians who should have much more, sacrifice much more devotion, much more donation to this city and this…

Prabhupada: Now immediately we require a big place.

Guest: Yeah. Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: And so, so many Indians, rich Indians are there; they are not coming forward.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupada: [Hindi] How many Indians are here in London?

Dhananjaya: Around 200,000.

Guest: How much?

Prabhupada: 200,000. If they, if contribute one pound each.

Guest: One pound each will be with one…

Prabhupada: Immediately we can purchase a nice place.

Guest (2): Today, the United Kingdom is about ten thousand, uh, ten lakhs.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (2): Ten lakhs.

Guest: Ten million.

Dhananjaya: One million.

Guest (2): One million, that means ten lakhs of people living here…

Prabhupada: So we can immediately raise ten lakhs.

Guest (2): In London there are only about two lakhs now.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (2): In London there are two lakhs. In whole of the United Kingdom...

Prabhupada: Oh. [Hindi].

Guest: [Hindi] we went to all the temples of the world and…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (3): The thing is a great achievement.

Guest: In this century, I would say…

Prabhupada: They…, you simply speak on your lips but don't come forward to help me.

Guest: Hm. That's right.

Prabhupada: It is a great achievement, undoubtedly. Whole world will accept. That's a fact.

Guest: [Hindi] I have been going through [Hindi].

Prabhupada: [Hindi]. But I don't want to become proud. It is my duty I have done. But you should know it. You should help me. Neither the government is helping, neither the Indian people is helping, and neither the foreign… Subhas Bose, he raised fund and established one iron fleet. But I cannot do that. Why this non-cooperation? I do not know what I have done. [Hindi] Why this non-cooperation spirit?

Guest: Oh, nahi, I would say not non-cooperation; it is ignorance.

Prabhupada: Yes, I don't get their cooperation.

Guest: It's ignorance, that they…

Prabhupada: But ignorance-that, that it is foolishness.

Guest: The foolishness I would say.

Prabhupada: It's not ignorance. It is foolishness. [Hindi] …immediately for a nice place. And so many English boys are coming. I can keep thousands of them…

Guest: Thousands of…

Prabhupada: …if I get a proper place.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupada: [Hindi]

Guest: When Kesava from USA-he came here about two months back…

Prabhupada: Who?

Guest: Kesavananda.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. He's my disciple, Kesava.

Guest: 455 Valencia, San Francisco. And at that time they went to have some place, but they said we could not have money, that's what the…

Prabhupada: The money, you can, you can contribute.

Guest: Hm.

Prabhupada: I came in America with seven dollars only.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupada: Nobody gave me money. Neither government, neither big men.

Guest: No, that I know. It was all you alone, personally and all great continuous perseverance.

Prabhupada: [Hindi] [end]