Room Conversation – May 30, 1976, Honolulu

Every one of you should become guru. But why immature attempt?

760530R1-Honolulu [60:59 Minutes]

Gopala Krsna: …also.

Prabhupada: So, little distant, no?

Kirtanananda: It's a little distant is the only problem.

Gopala Krsna: And there are several other advantages.

Kirtanananda: But I suggested that Jayatirtha would be responsible as GBC.

Prabhupada: He was responsible.

Kirtanananda: Well, I agree. Well, I can come… I have never been GBC for Hawaii.

Prabhupada: No?

Jayatirtha: I've never been GBC here. Bali-mardana was GBC, and then after that time it was never resolved who would be GBC. But Sudama was here, and you told him to go direct with you. So I never suggested that I become the GBC, because it was [indistinct], more and more territory. Otherwise I would have been more concerned. [break]

Prabhupada: Anyway, do something. Nothing happening, that is not very good.

Devotee (2): Now they have a responsible president…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee (2): There is a responsible president here, who will not be so whimsical… [indistinct]

Gopal Krsna: [indistinct] ...once upon a time.

Jayatirtha: Hawaii was never part of the western zone; it was always separate. Gaurasundara was here, it was separate. And then Bali-mardana was here.

Ramesvara: No, Gaurasundara was the GBC secretary.

Devotee (2): No, before his time.

[indistinct conversation between devotees] [break]

Prabhupada: Don't sell the bigger one.

Ramesvara: The question is, if it is to be distributed in India, should we insert the Sanskrit, because in India, if it does not have Sanskrit, it may not be taken as authority.

Prabhupada: No. No. That is not.

Ramesvara: That is not necessary?

Prabhupada: No. Sanskrit is meant for the scholarly person, not for general public. And especially in the Western countries, if they see Sanskrit and the transliteration, they take it very seriously. [break]

Ramesvara: Just as it was, without any Sanskrit or any transliteration-just the verse and the purport?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: And some pictures.

Ramesvara: And we will include pictures, in color.

Prabhupada: I think there is no purport…, or verse. You have no copy of Gaura-lila?

Ramesvara: Copy of the original? Abridged edition?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Yes, we have copy.

Prabhupada: So there is no verse?

Devotee (2): There is verse in English.

Ramesvara: In English. There is translation and then purport, some purport.

Gopala Krsna: Yeah, but no verse. There's no verse in there. The verses are not there. There is straight translation and purport.

Ramesvara: Oh, I see, yes. Straight translation and purport.

Gopala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, you want me to have traveling sahkirtana party in India now?

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …Bhagavatam the family members are compared with the foxes and jackals.

Gopala Krsna: They are all a liability?

Prabhupada: No. In the forest, when you are attacked by foxes and jackals, they take away your flesh and bones. The white children are like that. And the senses are compared with the-what is called-dacoits, plunderers. Actually that is a fact. The senses… Suppose a man is born in a rich family. To take birth in rich family is due to past pious activities. So pious activities means performing sacrifices, rituals-these are pious activities. So as a result of pious activities…

[background noise-fan?]

It is sounding too much. Why? How before it was not sounding?

Devotee (2): We'll keep the curtain open. [break]

Prabhupada: In Swiss bank.

Devotee (2): No, no, no. That is in the German bank. Seven hundred thousand.

Prabhupada: Seven hundred thousand. Marks?

Devotee: Right. Two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Approximately.

Prabhupada: So we cannot withdraw that?

Devotee (2): No. It is in a fixed deposit in a bank account, but we can't withdraw it, but there's things to show that we can be able to get it.

Prabhupada: Oh. We cannot spend it?

Devotee (2): Not yet. But at least the police are not holding it any more.

Gopala Krsna: But in our name, ISKCON's name in India you can fix it.

Prabhupada: So at least the money is safe now.

Devotee (2): Sounds that way. But if it is in a fixed deposit, then we can also use it actually.

Prabhupada: No. Fixed deposit for month, one month, so that we are not losing the interest. Fixed deposit means there is interest.

Devotee (2): Right.

Ramesvara: Also credit from the printer. He will see that we have the money in the bank. He will give us credit again, so we can print books in Germany.

Devotee (3): Also interest? [break]

Prabhupada: If he surrenders, then there is no question of arrest.

Devotee: Yes, that is what they are arranging.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee (3): He said there won't be any problems. They can arrange it. They are going to talk to the prosecuting attorneys and set up a trial date and then leave it up to him. As long as he agrees to come back for the trial date. One of the questions that he had was that he wanted to know exactly what he and Brahmananda should do. Should they… He knows that you want joint management in Europe, and he wants to know whether… He is going to call back on Monday. He wants to find out by that time whether he and Brahmananda should take full charge of London, Paris and Germany, or what should be done.

Prabhupada: What is Hamsadūta's desire?

Hamsadūta: Well, I thought I would go back and go to Germany and see the situation with Brahmananda.

Prabhupada: Yes. He has to go. So, when he has to go?

Devotee (3): He said it wasn't fixed yet. But he was meant to let Hamsadūta know as soon as it was fixed up.

Prabhupada: Until we think of the proper situation, they should remain there. Then let Hamsadūta go and see the situation is in Germany. Then we decide.

Devotee (3): He said that Brahmananda's willing to stay there and manage if you want him to. He said in that report that he was ready to come to Los Angeles immediately if you wanted him to stay there.

Prabhupada: That I know what I have said. First of all, let Hamsadūta go there.

Devotee (3): And then I can discuss.

Hamsadūta: Srila Prabhupada, do you want me to… I get the impression from Paramahamsa that you wanted me to travel with you for some time.

Prabhupada: Yes. That I want for everyone.

[pause]

The tendency for becoming guru is there. But after all, every one of you should become guru. But why immature attempt? That is my question. Everyone will become guru when he is expert disciple, but why this immature attempt? Guru is not a thing, imitation. When one is mature, he becomes guru automatically. What is the answer to this, there have been some attempt to become guru? I am training you all to become guru in the future. Now the Krsna consciousness movement, the properties and everything, I will not take with me. They will remain where they are. It requires very mature treatment. But there has been some attempt to become guru immediately. Am I correct or not? Hm? We are also acting as guru. My other Godbrothers, they are also doing that. But we never attempted during the lifetime of our Guru Maharaja. That is not the etiquette. It is an immature attempt. And it is not the thing that by artificial attempt one becomes guru. Guru is accepted by etiquette, not by artificial attempt. Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc Madhya 7.128]: "Follow My order and become guru." Not that you become guru.

Hmm? You have to follow the parampara system, order. That is guru. Not that I declare myself as guru. No. That is not guru. Guru is he who has strictly followed the order of the spiritual master. He can become guru. Otherwise he is disqualified. Artificial attempt is not good.

[pause]

Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado [Sri Sri Gurv-astaka 8]-we are singing daily, hundred times. Guru means kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya [Sri Sri Gurv-astaka 7]. Do you understand all these lines? You sing daily, thrice. Do you understand the meaning of these words? Can anyone explain?

Devotee (3): Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya-"The spiritual master is very dear to Krsna."

Prabhupada: Yes. First of all one has to become very dear to Krsna, then automatically he becomes guru. And when one becomes very dear to Krsna, then he becomes guru, and by the mercy of such guru Krsna becomes merciful. These are the statements of the sastra. Ara na kariha asa. What is that, guru-mukha-padma-vakya?

Devotee (3):

Prabhupada: Ara na kariha mane asa. Simply whatever you hear from the guru, try to execute it. Ara na kariha mane asa. Do not expect anything more. So whatever we are chanting, we are reading, we must realize that. The Gauḍiya Matha institution became a failure on account of disobedience and not following the orders. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's statement about the verse vyavasayatmika buddhir-find out this verse from the Bhagavad-gita. The Caitanya-caritamrta statement, amara ajnaya: one can become guru by the superior order.

Devotee (3): Shall I read it?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (3):

"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolved is many-branched."

Prabhupada: And the purport?

Devotee (3): "A strong faith in Krsna consciousness that one should be elevated to the highest perfection of life is called vyavasayatmika intelligence. The Caitanya-caritamrta states:

"Faith means unflinching trust in something sublime. When one is engaged in the duties of Krsna consciousness, he need not act in relationship to the material world, with obligations to family traditions, humanity or nationality. Fruitive activities are the engagements of one's reaction from past good or bad deeds. When one is awake in Krsna consciousness, he need no longer endeavor for good results in his activities. When one is situated in Krsna consciousness, all activities are on the absolute plane, for they are no longer subject to dualities like 'good' and 'bad.' The highest perfection of Krsna consciousness is renunciation of the material conception of life. This state is automatically achieved by progressive Krsna consciousness. The resolute purpose of a person in Krsna consciousness is based on knowledge [vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhaḥ] [Bg 7.19] by which one comes to know perfectly that Vasudeva, or Krsna, is the root of all manifested causes. As water on the root of a tree is automatically distributed to the leaves and branches, in Krsna consciousness one can render the highest service to everyone-namely self, family, society, country, humanity, etc. If Krsna is satisfied by one's actions, then everyone will be satisfied.

"Service in Krsna consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Krsna, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Krsna consciousness. As such, to be well versed in Krsna consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Krsna, and one should accept the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master as one's mission in life. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura instructs us, in his famous prayers for the spiritual master, as follows:

"'By satisfaction of the spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied. And by not satisfying the spiritual master, there is no chance of being promoted to the plane of Krsna consciousness. I should, therefore, meditate and pray for his mercy three times a day, and offer my respectful obeisances unto him, my spiritual master.'

"The whole process, however, depends on perfect knowledge of the soul beyond the conception of the body-not theoretically, but practically, when there is no longer chance for sense gratification manifested in fruitive activities. When one is not firmly fixed in mind… One who is not firmly fixed in mind is diverted by various types of fruitive activities."

Prabhupada: The thing is the artificial attempt to become guru is not the platform of guru. Do you all realize this or not? Hm?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupada: Just like this Bal Yogi Guru Maharaja. That kind of Guru Maharaja anyone can become; it is not very difficult. But really guru is not like that. That is evam parampara viduḥ. Evam parampara…Eh?

Devotees:

Prabhupada: Imam rajarsayo viduḥ. Through the parampara. Hmm? Imam vivasvate yoga proktavan aham [Bg 4.1]. So the training period to attempt to become guru, that is not very good attempt. That is artificial. At least officially during the lifetime of guru, nobody should attempt like that. The disciple should always remain as perfectly subordinate and be disciplined. Disciple means one who is being disciplined. That is disciple. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He is God, Krsna; still He said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila sasana : "My guru, seeing Me a fool number one, he has chastised Me." Now who can chastise Krsna, Caitanya Mahaprabhu? But that is the way of disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, guru more mūrkha dekhi. Who can be guru of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and who is that foolish guru who will say Caitanya Mahaprabhu is a fool? But He said that guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila sasana: "My Guru Maharaja found Me a fool number one, and therefore he has chastised Me." This is the position of disciple. So one who is always prepared to be chastised by guru, he is eligible to become guru.

So these attempts are being done, just like Gaurasundara thought, that "Why shall I live under the subjugation of these people? Let me go away, become a guru." Similarly Sudama. This attempt will not be successful, but there is some attempt like that. What can be done? Such attempt will never be successful, but there are some attempts like that.

[break] What is your answer?

Gopala Krsna: I think that everybody should resolve not to do it in any form at all. I have heard similar… I have heard this type of complaint from other places also, where some other devotees have tried to call themselves some type of a guru. Whenever I heard that, I have been very disturbed.

Devotee (2): Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (2): Caitanya Mahaprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. So for him to desire to be guru, that is not in line with Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Gopala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, I am just trying to clarify-I don't want to offend anyone-but no disciple of yours should call himself diksa-guru or siksa-guru. Am I right?

Prabhupada: Well, everyone is engaged to become siksa-guru, but one should become perfect. The attempt is-what is called?-probationer. When probationer period is finished, when he is mature, automatically, one becomes guru. Not in the probationer period. That is immature attempt. That will be failure. Amara ajnaya [Cc Madhya 7.128], Caitanya Mahaprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become siksa-guru on my order, not by his own order. That is meaning I am giving sannyasa, I am sending you to different places, so this means that you have to carry out the order of the guru very strictly; then you become mature fully. Otherwise it will be artificial attempt, and that kind of guru will not help. Just like there are so many gurus and avataras and yogis are coming. For time being there is some halchal [commotion], and what is the effect? Just like this… What is that?

Devotee: Guru Maharaja?

Prabhupada: No, no. Guru Maharaja is later than that. Before that?

Devotees: Maharishi Yogi!

Prabhupada: So what is the effect?

Gopala Krsna: No one talks of him now.

Ramesvara: No. He is making big business.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Ramesvara: He has made his guru into guru business, big business. His men go to the college wearing tie and suit, and they initiate the students for one hundred dollars. He is making millions of dollars by cheating, and making it into a big business. He gets one hundred dollars, and he gives them a special mantra, which is just one line of…

Prabhupada: That he was giving beginning by thirty-five dollars. Now he has made it one hundred?

Devotees: Inflation! [laughter]

Jayatirtha: The cost of being a guru has gone up. [laughter]

Ramesvara: We have one devotee named Bahulasva, and his friend is working for this guru, this Maharishi Yogi. So he just got one letter saying that this cheating yogi, he went to Europe, and he has made millions of dollars by initiating students in the colleges there.

Jayatirtha: Thirty-five thousand people.

Ramesvara: He said the letter-we do not know if it is true-the letter reported that thirty-five thousand people paid one hundred dollars to get some…, to be cheated.

Prabhupada: So who wrote you that letter?

Ramesvara: One friend of our devotee Bahulasva.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Gopala Krsna: The world of the cheaters and the cheated.

Ramesvara: He is very famous, because he presents his method as very scientific.

Jayatirtha: You get a million-dollar grant from the government…

Prabhupada: Huh?

Jayatirtha: Their group got a one-million-dollar grant from the US government, so they presented research showing how Transcendental Meditation helps one to relax. So there is a big problem in America, because everyone is very much in anxiety, and the government recognizes that, so anything that will help them relax, they think is very good.

Gopala Krsna: It helps them get off drugs also. That's what the research showed.

Jayatirtha: Yeah, one million dollars. He is very active on the college campuses; he is making great headway there.

Ramesvara: He is making millions of dollars just from the colleges.

Devotee: Every college has got very big displays.

Ramesvara: Posters. Posters of his Transcendental Meditation process.

Jayatirtha: Very professional.

Gopala Krsna: Harvard University did some research on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation, and they found out…

Prabhupada: What is that Transcendental Meditation?

Gopala Krsna: We don't know.

Devotee (3): It is just a mantra.

Ramesvara: Bahulasva's friend told him that they are giving one line of the klim gayatri mantra. He teaches them to chant the word klim over and over again.

Prabhupada: The chanting is there.

Ramesvara: For one hundred dollars they give you that word.

Devotee (3): Do they chant silently?

Ramesvara: They chant silently.

Prabhupada: Hmm? What is that?

Devotee (3): They chant for thirty times in a day for a few minutes. They chant silently this mantra.

Prabhupada: The chanting is there. So where is the difference between ours and theirs?

Devotee: Theirs is not given by a bona fide guru.

Devotee (4): They are also advocating meditating on void.

Ramesvara: The difference is that he does not give them Krsna. He does not mention Krsna. He tells them that they are all God. He has written a commentary on Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Then why meditation if you are all God?

Ramesvara: He is in the line of Sahkaracarya. He claims that he is coming from Sahkaracarya's disciplic succession.

Prabhupada: Sahkaracarya says, bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mūḍha-mate.

Ramesvara: They have a story that Sahkaracarya was not healthy when he said that. [laughter] That is their story.

Prabhupada: God becomes unhealthy sometimes. [laughter] So what kind of God is he? If he is subjected to become unhealthy, like ordinary being, then what kind of God he is?

Ramesvara: But the reason it is popular is because each student gets to think that he can become God.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee: You don't have to take it seriously. You don't have to give up anything.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: There is no sacrifice involved, just a little money. They think it will help them develop something.

Gopala Krsna: I have met several people who have left him and who have realized that he is a cheat. They make the initial commitment, but after finalizing they all realize that he is a cheat.

Prabhupada: There are some like that?

Gopala Krsna: Oh, many!

Ramesvara: They do not consider him their spiritual master. The do not accept him as spiritual master. They do not surrender their life to him.

Devotee: It's just a business.

Ramesvara: It is a business where they are paying money to get a mantra. They do not accept him completely as spiritual master. And he is happy that way. No responsibility. He just takes their money. How old is he?

Devotee: He is old. He cannot even enjoy anymore.

Ramesvara: He has his own jet plane.

Prabhupada: Jet plane?

Ramesvara: He has his own jet plane. Yet he tells the college students that if you take this process of Transcendental Meditation then you will become more intelligent, your efficiency will increase, you will be able to get better grades. When you go into the business world you will be a big success. So he is holding that out in front of them, and they are all buying it. And that is his…

Kirtanananda: It is compatible with sense gratification.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: He uses it to increase your sense gratification.

Prabhupada: Well that is very encouraging for materialistic person. If one is giving assurance that you will be able to gratify your senses very nicely, then he is pleased.

Devotee: It appears he has some mystic power to make everyone…, make them believe in him.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that he has.

Gopala Krsna: Like that Sai Baba in India. I don't know about him but I met a lot of people who think that he is an incarnation of God. They say that he has done some mystic…

Guru-krpa: We met one fellow, he said he is Bhagavan. We said, "Bhagavan means all beauty." He said, "Yes." I said, "You call him beautiful?" [laughter] He didn't look very beautiful to me. [laughter]

Gopala Krsna: About four days ago there was one devotee, Santosa. He is a Sanskrit editor. He was distributing books at Kennedy Airport, and one man walked up to him and said, "Hey, Krsna is sitting in the Air India lounge!" So he went to the Air India lounge and there was an old Bengali sadhu. He did not even speak one word of English or Sanskrit. He had big beard and some ten, fifteen followers next to him, and one Indian businessman, and he was distributing chocolates to his followers. So Santosa went and sold him a book.

Ramesvara: Haribol!

Gopala Krsna: They were calling him to be Krsna.

Prabhupada: How many Krsna? Bala Yogi also said he was Krsna.

Gopala Krsna: But now his wife is suing him in the court. It was on television.

Ramesvara: Bala Yogi's wife?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Gopala Krsna: Yes. Bala Yogi is being sued by his wife in the court. I don't know. Someone told me they seen on television. And also various other people had financed him earlier; now they are filing claims against him for the money. And I read in an Indian newspaper that the city of Lucknow has filed a claim against Bala Yogi because they put up his posters all over the city, and they ruined the city property. So they filed an eleven-thousand-rupees claim against him, otherwise they will take him to court.

Ramesvara: He is not considered seriously, but this other, Maharishi Yogi, they take him as an important teacher. And with all the money he has made he has purchased one university in America.

Gopala Krsna: Oh. Really?

Ramesvara: What is the name?

Devotee (3): Parsons University, in Iowa.

Ramesvara: He has purchased the whole university to teach his nonsense.

Gopala Krsna: But the sincere soul realizes that your movement is the only genuine movement.

Prabhupada: They say?

Gopala Krsna: The sincere person realizes that your movement…

Prabhupada: But how many sincere persons I have got? [laughter]

Devotee: All your disciples!

Gopala Krsna: Even our sympathizers are advanced.

Prabhupada: Do they speak anything about our movement? It is already known. What do they speak?

Ramesvara: They do not understand it.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Ramesvara: They do not understand it.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna movement?

Ramesvara: They do not understand our movement, the purpose of it.

Devotee: Balyogeshwar made one comment about our movement.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Devotee: He said that "They are actually my best disciples." [laughter]

Prabhupada: Accha?

Devotee: He said that "They love me so much, and they don't even know who I am."

Ramesvara: Yes, he said that. I remember reading that in the newspaper. He claimed that Hare Krsna devotees are his best disciples.

Devotee (5): They are his best devotees, but they don't know it yet.

Guru-krpa: He thinks he is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Best disciple does not know him? [laughter] And still he is best!

Devotee: He is saying that someday we will realize that he is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Does anyone become disciple without knowing his spiritual master? Then how we become best disciple without knowing him? [laughter] And these things are published. You see: people are so foolish. They have no brain to understand a sentence. He says, "They are my best disciples but they do not know me." Is this very good argument?

Ramesvara: Nonsense. But his whole movement is nonsense.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Ramesvara: No one takes him seriously anymore.

Devotee: There was a fight between his mother and his brother on one side and him on the other side. His mother says he was becoming too Westernized and wanted to take him back to India, and he said… Because he married that Western girl.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Ramesvara: His secretary.

Devotee: And so they had a big fight. And his mother… His mother is actually the power behind him. She has organized everything, and the brother, the older brother. So I think they went back to India, and he remained here. But there's big disagreement…

Prabhupada: He did not go. Somebody said that he will be arrested.

Gopala Krsna: Yes, I have heard he can't go back because he ran away. They caught him smuggling about a year and a half ago. In fact there was an enquiry about this, how did he run away.

Ramesvara: The college students are a little afraid of us, because when they see us wearing the kurta and dhoti, they think that that we are introducing something that is so different that they cannot relate to it. But these Maharishi Yogi people, they dress up in this Western clothes, with suit and tie.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Ramesvara: That is why Satsvarūpa Swami and his party, they also dress up in Western clothes to distribute books to the colleges. Otherwise they are a little fearful that this is something quite... [break]

Guru-krpa: The first time I ever saw the devotees I was shocked. [laughter] I never saw such a thing. I just stood there and looked for five minutes.

Ramesvara: They are afraid because they think we are monks, and they do not want to be monks. They do not… They are not thinking how to become monks when they go to college. So when they see us, they are a little afraid. So we are distributing lots of literature on the campuses to give them the philosophy of the Vedas; then they will appreciate us. But just by our appearance they are afraid that we are a threat to their Western way of life, sense gratification.

Prabhupada: The Ramakrishna Mission, they also dress like that, their sannyasis.

Devotee: Only the sannyasi generally dresses in Indian style, in the West.

Prabhupada: No, no. They came to request me in the beginning, that "This dress will not appeal to them." If you dress like… When I was in New York they told me.

Kirtanananda: Nikhilananda?

Prabhupada: Nikhilananda's men came to me, one Mr. Mukherjee. So he said that "This dress will not appeal. You dress like an American gentleman." So I said that "I am prepared to dress, but where is the dress? I am poor man. I cannot purchase." [laughter]

Gopala Krsna: He wanted you to wear a suit?

Prabhupada: Yes. I told him that "If you can give me at least four nice suits, I can accept." [laughter] I can change one every alternate day. Must be nicely ironed. I know how to use this dress. In my young business life I used to have it, [laughter] but now I have no money. But since the very beginning I never dressed like… I mean, Kirtanananda Maharaja knows The same dress as I am putting now. You are not afraid of, of this dress.

Ramesvara: No. But to distribute our books sometimes, in order to approach people so that they will not…

Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is another thing.

Gopala Krsna: Devotees are now wearing suits and wigs and going to campuses and airports. They have already started doing that.

Prabhupada: Hm. Silk?

Gopala Krsna: They wear suits…

Prabhupada: Ah.

Gopala Krsna: … and wigs to go to airports and places where they don't want to be recognized.

Prabhupada: Hmm. There is no harm.

Gopala Krsna: Going very nicely.

Prabhupada: [someone enters] Mangoes? Good mangoes are coming nowadays.

Devotee (2): It is hot. Pretty good!

Guru-krpa: Every morning there is a mango feast here.

Ramesvara: Hamsadūta is the king. [laughter]

Jayatirtha: King of the mangoes. [laughter]

Prabhupada: "King of mangoes" means?

Devotees: He eats the most.

Prabhupada: He is controlling the mango market? [laughter]

Jayatirtha: No, Guru-krpa controls the market.

Devotee: It seems a little warm in here. Shall I open the window a little bit?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Because we dress in the dhotis, if they do not hear our philosophy, they think we are renouncing the world completely and have nothing positive to offer them. That is why we can introduce… If our writers for Back to Godhead become more expert, they can…

Prabhupada: We are not renouncing. We are actually accepting. You are renouncing.

Devotee: We are accepting the real world.

Prabhupada: No. We are accepting the Krsna's society, or Krsna's association. Krsna has got His society in Vrndavana. We are going to become one of the members of that society. But you are avoiding it. So you are renouncing. Our mission is back to home, back to Godhead, to enter into the society of associates of God-but you are avoiding it. You do not want. You want this temporary so-called society, friendship and love, which will be finished within some years. That is your ignorance. This society will not stay. How long you shall remain American? You will not remain for many days. Then where is your position? You will be kicked out. However you may try to remain in this so-called society, friendship and love, you will not be allowed to stay. You will be forced to renounce. We are trying to enter into the society of Krsna, where everything is eternal.

So which is better? Your so-called society will not stay. You cannot stay here, however you may nicely dressed with hats and coats and boots. You will be kicked out. Then where you will go? Ask this question to them. When they say something, you also say something. Why you are silent? Silent means accepting his proposal. Maunam sammati laksanam [Silence is the symptom of consent[. If I say something, if I say you are a thief but if you do not protest, if you remain silent, that means you are thief. This is the conclusion. When they say something, you say also something.

Ramesvara: When we meet individual people, we can easily explain to them our philosophy.

Prabhupada: That individual or collective, it does not matter. The argument is there. Suppose you want to stay in this dress, but you will not be allowed to stay. What is your answer? You will not be allowed. So you can be kicked out at any moment. In spite of your nice dress you will be kicked out. What is your answer to that?

Devotee: The medical doctors are working to extend our lifetimes longer.

Prabhupada: "In future." Then again they say same.

Ramesvara: "There is nothing after death." They will say that… They do not believe in an afterlife.

Prabhupada: An afterlife, that's all right. But you cannot stay in this dress. That is a fact. You will be kicked out in spite of your intention to stay. You, against your will,-you will be kicked out. Then how you are so confident? Nobody wants to be kicked out, but he is kicked out. So what is that force? You may think that there is no life after death, but you want to stay in this life to the last point. Even an old man, he does not want to die, but why he is kicked out against his will? What is their answer? Nobody… Even the pig, in so abominable condition of life, if you go to kill him he will protest, scream, "No, no, no. Don't kill me, don't kill me, don't kill me." Why this protest?

Ramesvara: It is maya.

Devotee (3): Krsna's maya.

Prabhupada: Krsna's maya is better, but what is the answer of this?

Gopala Krsna: Everybody wants to live.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is a fact. But he is kicked out. Then why does he not consider what is that force, that I don't want to die, but I am obliged to die? What is that force? Everything finished after this. They say everything will be... But this force will not be finished. The force will remain. The other living entities will remain back. They will also be forced. The force is permanent.

Devotee: They say it is nature.

Ramesvara: Material nature.

Prabhupada: That nature you may call any by name, but the force is there. So above you there is a force. That you have to admit.

Ramesvara: They will admit that.

Devotee: They will admit.

Prabhupada: Then so why they say that everything will be finished? The force will remain. Why do they say, rascals, that everything is finished?

Devotee: They say it for themselves or everything will be finished.

Prabhupada: That is there, but others will feel the force. The force will remain. Why they say that everything will be finished? What is the value of this statement?

Ramesvara: Their false egos. They have such big false egos that they are only thinking about their selves.

Prabhupada: That is so. They have nothing-insignificant. But the force is very great. That will remain. So why do you say everything is finished?

Jayatirtha: They don't have any experience of anything that's gone out of existence. Actually, in the material world there is no experience of anything going out of existence. Matter is always transforming and changing. That energy is changing into different kinds of energy, but nothing ever goes out of existence. So their theory is that they are going to go out of existence.

Prabhupada: Changing, changing, changing-that is going on in you also. You have changed so many bodies, and still individually you are there. Changing is going on everywhere. That is our beginning of philosophy. The yoga-samyoga-you are getting one type of body; it is changing. In the process of changing, again you get another body; then that is also changing, changing. But you are there, permanently. In spite of all changes, you are there. Otherwise how you can know that my so many changes have taken place? I am there, because I am seeing the changes; therefore despite all changes I am there, therefore I am permanent. This is the conclusion. If you do not see changes, then what is the meaning of changes? [end]