Room Conversation – May 15, 1976, Honolulu

That is very difficult, to deny Personality of God by reading Bhagavad-gita

Prabhupada: ...she still upstairs?

Radha-vallabha: No, Prabhupada. Palika is up there now learning how to cook from her.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Radha-vallabha: Palika has gone up there to learn cooking from her, and then she will come back and instruct the cooks in L.A.

Pusta Krsna: She wrote... Palika wrote one letter saying that she wanted... Her husband took sannyasa, isn't it?

Radha-vallabha: Yes. Bhavananda.

Pusta Krsna: She wanted to stay at that farm. She knew it a long time ago.

Radha-vallabha: She is staying at the Press now.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Radha-vallabha: She works at the Press, Palika.

Prabhupada: Palika.

Radha-vallabha: Yes. She is transcribing all of the tapes of you lecturing back from 1966, all the way to the present. We are going to have an archive. They want to get every word that you say while you are here.

Prabhupada: So Yamuna's asrama, how far?

Radha-vallabha: Asrama?

Devotee (3): From Los Angeles?

Radha-vallabha: A thousand miles maybe.

Devotee (3): It's closer to San Francisco-very far.

Pusta Krsna: Perhaps a thousand miles, because Los Angeles is on the southern portion of California, the southern half, and Oregon is… Remember we went to Portland?

Prabhupada: Hm.

Pusta Krsna: It's Portland, and then we went to…, we drove across to Eugene that one day, you did a program there. Syamasundara was driving very fast.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Pusta Krsna: I was in the car that day, and it's more or less in that area of Eugene, I believe. So it is somewhere in between, around there, that area, Portland.

Prabhupada: Near Portland?

Pusta Krsna: Yes. It's Oregon. Portland is... It is a horizontal state.

Prabhupada: Yes. Oregon I remember. So...

Pusta Krsna: She mentioned that she would like to come, but because there is only two of them there, and they are taking care of the Deities and they don't have much money, they may not be able to. She would like to come and see you.

Prabhupada: Money-we can send some money.

Pusta Krsna: Hm. But then she was wondering who would take care of the Deities.

Prabhupada: No, we can go there.

Pusta Krsna: [laughs]

Prabhupada: See how they are doing.

Pusta Krsna: [laughing] I don't know if they're... I don't know what kind of facilities they will have there, though, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: No facilities. [devotees laugh] Just what facility? We are not for facility; we are for service.

Pusta Krsna: I know that.

Hari Sauri: At least you'll get some good cooking.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari Sauri: At least you'll get some good cooking.

Prabhupada: Not necessary.

Pusta Krsna: We don't know if there is a road up to the house or anything, really.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: Some farms, you know, they don't have roads up to the houses. We just don't know what the situation is. We have to make some inquiry first. [to other devotees: Do you know anything about it? I don't know.]

Radha-vallabha: Jayatirtha was there, I think. Now he is in England.

Pusta Krsna: We can perhaps find out in Los Angeles a little bit more. I can write one letter to Yamuna.

Radha-vallabha: Palika will be back. We can find...

Pusta Krsna: So I will write and ask them what the situation of their farm is.

Hari Sauri: Revatinandana has been there.

Prabhupada: No man is allowed there, right?

Pusta Krsna: So far I know. They are trying to remain completely free from any men whatsoever.

Prabhupada: That's good.

Radha-vallabha: You know, in Los Angeles, Palika and Jadurani have both cut all their hair.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Radha-vallabha: Palika and Jadurani have both cut all their hair off. [break]

Prabhupada: That's good.

Radha-vallabha: Ha. Jaya.

Prabhupada: That is the Vedic system. Those who are husbandless, they should not dress attractively to attract the attention of another man. It is very difficult civilization for the Westerners.

Radha-vallabha: Visakha will be coming here to…, for photography for BTG. She will be here soon.

Pusta Krsna: It appears, though, that her farm is not growing very much.

Prabhupada: There is no need of growing.

Pusta Krsna: Because there was two of them before, and still two. They are not expanding at all.

Hari Sauri: Prabhupada wrote to them not to expand.

Pusta Krsna: But they haven't expanded at all.

Prabhupada: What is the use of expanding?

Pusta Krsna: No women perhaps want to stay there? I don't know.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is tapasya, austerity. But she is maintaining?

Pusta Krsna: Apparently.

Prabhupada: Deity picture is nice.

Pusta Krsna: Yes. Flowers, everything.

Prabhupada: Tapasa brahmacaryena. This is the beginning of spiritual life. Yesterday I have explained one verse, how Lord Ramacandra comes... You have transcribed?

Pusta Krsna: On the tape? I am not quite there yet. I have only done about a third of it so far. I am on that verse where Krsna's, His body is described, I think it's the twelfth or thirteenth verse. Krsna's body is described as the universe. He is the oldest, and.... There was one word, dat-te.

Prabhupada: Hm. Datte, datte.

Pusta Krsna: What is that? Because I couldn't pick it up on the tape.

Prabhupada: Datte means "maintaining."

Pusta Krsna: Datte asya?

Prabhupada: Hm. I am describing... There is one verse how the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to teach the human society as Lord Ramacandra, as Krsna, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu. You have come to that?

Pusta Krsna: Not yet. I'll be doing that today, finishing.

Prabhupada: I think one copy of that explanation may be given with the letter of Bajaj.

Pusta Krsna: OK.

Prabhupada: These rascals are manufacturing. Now they are holding this conference on account of me. Because there are so many rascals, they have interpreted Bhagavad-gita in so many ways, but they could not do anything, and here our propaganda is going on all over the world.

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: So they are a little ashamed. [devotees laugh]

Pusta Krsna: Are they genuinely ashamed, or are they...

Prabhupada: Genuinely. Because they see, "Who cares for us?"

Devotee: Who is this?

Pusta Krsna: There are some men in Bombay, they have a conference, Gita pracar conference.

Prabhupada: That Bajaj is a very rich man, and the son of very important man of Gandhi's contemporary, Vinoba Bhave, and his father, Gandhi, they were working together. His father's name was Jamnalal Bajaj. A very rich man, he joined Gandhi's movement and was financing the movement. So this man is also very big, rich man in Bombay. Very big factory of electrical..., what is it called?

Pusta Krsna: Light bulbs?

Prabhupada: Ha?

Pusta Krsna: Light bulbs?

Prabhupada: No, no. Electrical, this fan, plug...

Pusta Krsna: Appliances.

Prabhupada: Appliances, yes. Very big factory in India. Table fan, ceiling fan, all kinds of appliances. Stove. They have got very big factory, and he is the proprietor. He is our life member. He came to see me: "Is it not possible to call that? I am ready." The same thing, "I am ready."

Pusta Krsna: Your Divine Grace is already doing.... Why don't they just join our society?

Prabhupada: And they have got this rascal interpretation. Even Gandhi did. That is individuality.

Pusta Krsna: Why do they want to develop a separate society, Gita pracar conference, or their separate work, when they can simply support our work, which is doing it already?

Prabhupada: He is organizing. He is trying to organize. But why not combine? Any moment it can be done, but these rascal will not agree. They stick their own foolishness. It will never be successful. Misinterpreting on the words of Krsna, how much offensive it is they do not know it, and they want success. They do not take seriously that it is Krsna's instruction. They think that somebody has written a, what is called, allegory.

Pusta Krsna: Mythology?

Prabhupada: Mythology, yes. They do not believe there was battle of Kuruksetra and Krsna instructed... Krsna is God and... They all these things...

Radha-vallabha: At the most they will admit that Krsna was a great personality.

Prabhupada: That's all. All this Cinmayananda and this Vinoba Bhave and Gandhi and Dr. Radhakrishnan, and all rascals, Aurabindo... They have taken it.

Pusta Krsna: The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: The evidence is there in the Vedic scriptures, but it seems that they have developed this Mayavadi philosophy, to "the within of Krsna," that Radhakrishnan's philosophy. People have come to accept that.

Prabhupada: Radhakrishnan has accepted, "That is very difficult, to deny Personality of God by reading Bhagavad-gita."

Devotee: He wrote that? [laughter]

Radha-vallabha: He tried.

Prabhupada: He tried his best, but it is [indistinct].

Pusta Krsna: Rascals.

Prabhupada: One after another.

Pusta Krsna: They didn't at all want to serve the purpose of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Impersonalists. "How God can be person?" They compare with themselves: "But I am a person, what can I do? How can I experience the sky?" They are in perplexity.

Pusta Krsna: So why do they touch Bhagavad-gita then?

Prabhupada: Because it is so authorized and popular. They take the advantage, proving their foolish rascal idea.

Radha-vallabha: Maharishi also did one translation...

Pusta Krsna: The first six chapters.

Radha-vallabha: ...very nonsense. He talks about Bhagavad-gita as if it were some sort of high school physics course.

Prabhupada: What?

Radha-vallabha: He speaks of Bhagavad-gita in the terms of physics, energy, so much nonsense. It's impossible to understand it.

Prabhupada: Now they are becoming entrapped. "As It Is."

Radha-vallabha: By Your Divine Grace.

Prabhupada: And they accept it. [laughter] And this is becoming very popular; therefore they are perplexed.

Radha-vallabha: Bahulasva Prabhu goes to the colleges...

Prabhupada: Hm?

Radha-vallabha: Bahulasva gives lectures in the colleges, and he hands out Gitas to all the students, and during the lecture he says, "Turn to page such-and-such and you will see where it talks about karma," and then, "Turn to this page..." And they are all going through the book, going through the book, and after the class he usually sells about five books, because they are so impressed that someone is so well versed in the Gita and can explain it so nicely, and they take the book because they have never seen this before.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is...

[pause and sipping noise, Prabhupada puts cup down on table]

Prabhupada: Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam [Bg 7.25].

Radha-vallabha: Sometimes the scholar accused that your translation has a Vaisnava slant. [laughter] They say that although the translations are slanted towards the devotional side, still it is a very nice book.

Pusta Krsna: That means they have some preconception already, of...

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: That means they have some preconception already, what to expect from Bhagavad-gita. They have been contaminated.

Hari Sauri: The library party was saying that...

Prabhupada: Who?

Hari Sauri: The library party, one of them was telling me that when they present... The scholars, they get the books, and they like the layout and the Sanskrit and everything like that, but they are not so keen on the purports because they can't speculate on anything. It's so clear and direct they've got nothing left to say themselves. [laughter]

Prabhupada: So we cannot allow any speculation. [laughter] Just see the audacity-they are speculating on the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such rascals, and we have to accept them as authorities. In Bengal it is called jethamo [imitating the behavior of one's father's elder brother] Jethamo. Just like if a small boy speaks authoritatively before his father, superior, it is called jethamo. What do you call it in English?

Radha-vallabha: Upstart.

Prabhupada: Upstart, impudent. So all these rascals are jakam.

Radha-vallabha: You describe that in the Third Canto, where Vidura was referred to Maitreya by Uddhava, because Uddhava was afraid to speak; although he was qualified, he didn't want to speak while Maitreya was still present, because Maitreya was older.

Pusta Krsna: It is an offense: maryada-vyatikrama. Maryada-vyatikrama. Is that it?

Hari Sauri: You say in the purport that you mention that if one to speak in the presence of a superior, then that's an offense.

[child crying]

Prabhupada: Who is this particular child, always crying?

Hari Sauri: These children, it's the children from the karmi side that make all the noise. Most of our children are all pretty quiet.

Prabhupada: No, he is...

Pusta Krsna: This is a devotee.

Hari Sauri: This is one of the devotees, but…

Prabhupada: …I am speaking of. He is always crying.

Pusta Krsna: They could use a gurukula here, I think.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: They could use a gurukula on this island.

Hari Sauri: I think all of those children in the morning, though, they are from the other island.

Radha-vallabha: There are many devotees on the island of Maui.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Radha-vallabha: There are many devotees on the island of Maui, the next island. They don't live in the temple. They also have many children.

[child is still crying]

Pusta Krsna: Ramesvara said that Jagadisa is taking very seriously to expand the gurukula program.

Radha-vallabha: In Los Angeles one of the neighboring ladies, a karmi lady, she was passing by, and all the gurukula children were running around outside, and she said, "These are the nicest children I have ever seen."

[child is still crying]

Prabhupada: This child is a little disturbing.

Pusta Krsna: Yeah, suffering.

Prabhupada: In the temple, no grhasthas allowed. [laughter]

Pusta Krsna: Jaya.

Prabhupada: Temple is meant for brahmacaris, sannyasis. Grhasthas may be engaged in worshiping, taking care, managing, but families should remain outside.

Pusta Krsna: The problem is most of these women with children, they don't have any husbands-unmarried.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: One woman, she came the other day, she has one child, no husband. She was living here, and she was asked to leave because there was no space. Now she is living in the back of a car with her baby.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: She is living in the back of a car with her baby. She has no blanket even to take care of the child. No husband, just a baby living in the back of a car.

Prabhupada: Here?

Pusta Krsna: Nearby. She's coming each morning to your lectures. Many of these women are unmarried with babies.

Prabhupada: This is the social problem: women without husband. And how scientific it was that the girl, as soon as she is above ten years, the father's responsibility: how to get her married. All my sisters were married from nine to twelve years. And the twelve years old, my second sister, she was belated...

Pusta Krsna: Belated?

Prabhupada: It was lately.

Radha-vallabha: She was old.

Prabhupada: Twelve years. So my mother said to my father that "This girl is not being married, I shall commit suicide." [devotees laugh] This is, I have seen. She was elder than me by three years, my second sister. So then hastily, somehow or other, she was married to my brother-in-law as second wife. Second wife… The first wife died. Formerly the boys and girls were married earlier. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He was married at the seventeen years old. He married for the second time at the age of twenty years. First wife death. So formerly this was the practice. Girl utmost ten to twelve years, and boy sixteen to seventeen or utmost thirty.

Pusta Krsna: As soon as your sisters were married, did they remain in the same house, or did they live with the other family's house?

Prabhupada: Then, because she was twelve years old, so after one year, because generally in Bengal twelve to thirteen years is the age of puberty. My wife gave birth to first child when she was fourteen years. [devotees exclaim] She was married at eleven years old. So anyway, the idea is that it is the father's duty to get the daughter married somehow or other within thirteen years.

Pusta Krsna: Before they reach puberty?

Prabhupada: This is Vedic system.

Pusta Krsna: Very good system.

Prabhupada: Not necessarily the boy should be all well equipped. Simply to see that he is good health and he can work hard. That was all. No education, no money-nothing. Then depends on the fate. "I have given to you a boy who is healthy and he can work hard." Then they are fortunate. This was the system.

Radha-vallabha: They also used astrology, didn't they?

Prabhupada: Hm? Yes. My mother's grandfather was very, very rich man, and his daughter was given to a boy whose family was rich, but they became poor, bankrupt. Practically poverty-stricken. Ah, that boy. So my mother's grandmother preferred that "This boy is hard-working and coming from a respectable family; now they have become poor." So he gave her daughter to him, and later on my mother's grandmother gave him five hundred rupees to start some business. So that is at least 150 years ago, my mother's grandmother. So with that five hundred rupees he started a business, and he flourished in such a way that in Calcutta there is a place, it is called Chetla. Chetla, that Chetla, he purchased the whole Chetla. Now there are two big roads. One road is Govinda Chandra Auddy Road, that is the husband of my mother's aunt, and another road, Rakhal Chandra Auddy, that is my maternal uncle. So with that five hundred rupees he made a great fortune. And he had no money. It was given secretly by the mother-in-law, that "You do something with that."

Pusta Krsna: What kind of business did he…?

Prabhupada: His... Later on he did a, started business, some lace, lace-making. Not very lucrative, but still. So Indians still believe that that is the [indistinct], the verdict of all Vedic literature, tal labhyate duhkhavad anyatah sukham [SB 1.5.18]. You cannot create your fortune unless God gives you; but you can make honest effort, then depend on God. Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana [Bg 2.47]. That is Indian philosophy. Therefore they did not make too much endeavor-easy-going-but do something; don't be idle. That is the philosophy. So still there is no problem. The boy is married, and he works honestly, and the wife also works honestly as householder. They live peacefully. Not that "I must have this comfort, that comfort." Just like our, that rascal...

[break] No. All this Western wife means, they call it "white elephant." In India they call it.

Pusta Krsna: You…? White women?

Prabhupada: White elephant, to maintain. Because formerly people were…, boys were coming in the Western countries, sometimes they married European wife, and later on, after going back, they found it is a white elephant. [devotees laugh]

Pusta Krsna: That's great.

Prabhupada: White elephant, I mean, if you cannot maintain properly, then there was divorce.

Pusta Krsna: These women are never satisfied.

Prabhupada: Therefore they found it "white elephant," to maintain an elephant, white in color. [devotees laugh]

Hari Sauri: A white elephant is particularly useless?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari Sauri: A white elephant is more useless than another elephant?

Prabhupada: No, elephant nobody can maintain. It is very difficult to maintain, and he has to be given forty kilograms food daily, and kilo, what is called, forty kilos?

Pusta Krsna: Hundred pounds.

Hari Sauri: I was just wondering why white...

Prabhupada: You have seen elephant?

Pusta Krsna: Yes, in India.

Prabhupada: Ha. For them such big chapatis are made. [devotee laughs] A whole family's wheat flour will be given, and that is also not sufficient. So many chapatis should be given. Only the kings. Now the princely order is finished, now there is no transaction for elephant, horse. No customers. Formerly there was a market yearly held: horse, elephant, all animals, cows, they were being sold, near Patna. Big. Now since last twenty years it is stopped. Nobody is going to purchase horse and...

Hari Sauri: That, er, so... [break] ...diminishing, they can't afford to keep them.

Prabhupada: Twenty is maintaining in this age; that is also to his credit, and dowry.

Pusta Krsna: They want to do away with that also.

Prabhupada: And just see, when Krsna's mother was married to Vasudeva, dowry: so many hundreds of chariots, so many horses, so many elephants, so many maidservants. Who will be able to keep them? Apart from ornaments, jewelry, saris to the girl, these things were also given, royal, royal family. Then if he can't maintain, then he'll not… Otherwise what is the glory there, if he maintains only a tin car? This is a tin car, canister. As soon as he is stuck up: brr, brr, brr. He has got experience, tin car. Where is elephant?

Radha-vallabha: If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Radha-vallabha: If the president just takes a little bit of money, they kick him out immediately.

Prabhupada: President?

Radha-vallabha: If the president of the United States…

Prabhupada: Ha. Ha.

Radha-vallabha: …if he tries to use his position for a little bit of, ah, like kingly enjoyment, then they just kick him out, because he's not a king.

Prabhupada: All of them are doing that. They are taking so many women. At least that Kennedy was, before.

Pusta Krsna: Yes, that's been exposed.

Prabhupada: And this Nixon was also doing that. They take advantage.

Pusta Krsna: There seems to be no solution, though, because in the Western society there is no protection offered by parents, so these people are coming to become devotees. So what do we do? How can we arrange our society? This is always a point of discussion.

Prabhupada: We have to maintain them. They have come to Krsna. How can we refuse them? Some arrangement may be made. The government must help. Approach the government, that these unprotected girls… But they are… Ha?

Pusta Krsna: That's a very good idea.

Prabhupada: Yes, welfare society, they must pay. How we can maintain? But we cannot refuse them. Are they not getting welfare, money?

Radha-vallabha: Some of them. With children they usually get welfare.

Prabhupada: So that money, they are giving to the society?

Radha-vallabha: Usually they keep it for their apartment and food. It is not so much money; it is just enough for them to maintain.

Prabhupada: So they do not take prasadam in the temple?

Radha-vallabha: Depends on where it is.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Radha-vallabha: Depends on the location. In Los Angeles the householders get food stamps from the government, and they purchase their food like that, and they...

Pusta Krsna: They…, they are not really trained up, though. Pradyumna, he's a little bit sick, so some of the girls, they were wanting to help him, like Kusa. So they had some food stamps, so they went out and bought the most nonsensical medicines.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Pusta Krsna: They went out and bought the most nonsensical modern medicines. Clorofil and so many things like this, and the price was $22. They bought with food stamps. Rather they could have bought so many things for offering to the Deities. Even the food stamps can be used, but no management.

Prabhupada: So this is a problem, to maintain these husbandless women.

Pusta Krsna: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: And also grhasthas.

Pusta Krsna: Many of the grhasthas at least are doing saṅkirtana.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: Many of the grhasthas are doing saṅkirtana, going out and distributing books, preaching.

Prabhupada: They are giving some service.

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is wanted, grhastha. Just see the foolish law, that there is no sufficient boys to keep wife at least, and they have made laws: one wife. Why one wife?

Pusta Krsna: In this philosophy of democracy there is not supposed to be any discrimination. They would say that this is discrimination against women, because in the Western countries actually the women have this concept that they are just as good as men. They are thinking like that, and the men are thinking also the women are probably just as good. They don't...

Prabhupada: Then why are they in difficulties, without husband?

Pusta Krsna: The women argue that the men are also in difficulty.

Prabhupada: But they like that? This neglected position, lying down at the back of the car without any husband, without any provisions, they like it?

Pusta Krsna: These white elephants are very crazy.

Prabhupada: If they like it, then let them be like that.

Pusta Krsna: Western women are... They have no training at all.

Radha-vallabha: They say that because they have been trained in the past that they are less intelligent and that they are weaker, therefore it has ruined them in their old age. They have to defeat all this.

Pusta Krsna: They have to prove their independence by living without man's protection.

Prabhupada: They cannot appreciate that?

Pusta Krsna: Man's protection? Not so much any more. There is a whole current of thought with this women's liberation.

Radha-vallabha: There's no protection anyway.

Pusta Krsna: Yes. The men run off anyway.

Radha-vallabha: They are, in one sense, they are right, because the men do not protect them; they exploit them for sex life. So that is one reason why they are becoming successful in this philosophy.

Prabhupada: There is reason, but the man does not marry because there are so many implications.

Pusta Krsna: But by nature's way women like to be protected.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore called svami, svami. Husband is called svami, means protector. [dogs barking] Where are these dogs?

Pusta Krsna: That's outside, next door.

Radha-vallabha: We find that in our society practically none of the brahmacaris want to get married because they see that the women are not so chaste.

Prabhupada: That is the psychology. That is the psychology. They know that "The girl whom I am going to marry, she will never be faithful." That is the impression. "So why shall I marry and take charge?" This is the psychology. I know in the beginning, 1965, one carpenter boy he was coming to me; he gave me some benches, secondhand. So I asked him, "Why don't you get yourself married?" because I did not know. So he replied, "Swamiji, I know that I'll not get a faithful, chaste wife," he said. Then I could understand the psychology why the boys do not get married. No husband wants an unchaste, unfaithful wife. That is a shock to him. And here you have to allow the wife to go out with her friends. You cannot object.

Pusta Krsna: Wife to go with?

Prabhupada: With her friends.

Radha-vallabha: To go out with her friends; just do whatever she likes.

Pusta Krsna: Oh, in the Western countries.

Prabhupada: I saw that John Lennon. He was maintaining her former husband or friend, the wife's...

Pusta Krsna: In the same house.

Radha-vallabha: Yoko Ono.

Prabhupada: She already had a friend, and John Lennon wanted her.

Pusta Krsna: So he took him also?

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughter] And he was working as his garden manager. Now that boy has kidnapped the girl. Not the…, the daughter, and he has went away, and now John has gone after him.

Hari Sauri: They've split now, anyway.

Prabhupada: Ha?

Hari Sauri: They've split up now, anyway.

Pusta Krsna: He wrote one song, that John Lennon, very blasphemous.

Prabhupada: Ha?

Pusta Krsna: He wrote one song on a record album. It was called "God is a Symbol," and he mentioned George. He said, "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in that, I don't believe in Gita. What has Krsna got on you, George?" Like this. And he went on. At the end he says, "All I believe is in Yoko and me-that's reality." [laughter]

Hari Sauri: He put all these things that he don't believe in: "I don't believe in heaven, and I don't believe in Krsna, and I don't believe in this, and I don't believe in that. There's just Yoko and me."

Prabhupada: Who cares for you?

Hari Sauri: That's what I thought when I read it. I thought, "Well, who cares for him anyway?" All these things are going on.

Radha-vallabha: Another one of them said, "Hare Krsna doesn't have anything on me."

Prabhupada: He said?

Radha-vallabha: I think it was Paul that said that. Right?

Pusta Krsna: No. It was John.

Radha-vallabha: Rascal.

Pusta Krsna: Actually, they are very low-class people. They came from Liverpool, low class.

Hari Sauri: Everyone is low class.

Prabhupada: Everyone low class. What they have got? Simply they got some money and became respected. That's all. Everywhere money is everything. Only on account of; otherwise what qualifications they have got? George, suppose he has got some money, but he has got qualification; he has done something for Krsna. He has taken. I asked him first of all $19,000 for paying the bill of Krsna, and he paid. You know that?

Radha-vallabha: Oh, yes. In America for a long time when we would distribute the books we would say, "George Harrison paid for this," and immediately they would take it.

Prabhupada: Hm. He actually did pay-$19,000.

Hari Sauri: On the strength of that foreword that he put in the inside cover, that must have sold hundreds of thousands of books, just by showing them that.

Prabhupada: Yes. I asked him to write it. And I have acknowledged his money.

Devotees: Yes.

Radha-vallabha: We show that to people when we distribute the book. We say, "See, here the author is thanking George Harrison for the money. He has paid for it," and they go, "Aha," and then they buy the book.

Prabhupada: He is a good boy.

Radha-vallabha: Srila Prabhupada, when Lord Nrsimhadeva appeared, did He appear in India? Or was it Indra-loka?

Prabhupada: I told you, [indistinct].

Hari Sauri: It describes in the Bhagavatam that Hiranyakasipu, he was seated in the throne of Indra, in Indra's palace, so then we were wondering, well, did Lord Nrsimhadeva appear on the planet earth or was it in Indra-loka?

Prabhupada: It was not in this planet, so far I... But we are not concerned about the history; we are concerned about the pastime.

Radha-vallabha: Lord Nrsimha is very popular in the West. When people hear about Him… Because in the West everyone is brought up with so many violent stories, so when they hear the story of Lord Nrsimhadeva, they become very attracted.

Pusta Krsna: And everyone's father is a great demon also.

Prabhupada: So why not publish a chapter from Bhagavatam? I think Seventh Canto is full of Prahlada's...

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Radha-vallabha: We actually did that. One time we published the Teachings of Prahlada Maharaja, a little pamphlet. That was very popular.

Prabhupada: So you are not printing now?

Radha-vallabha: No. We have not printed it for many years. We can print it again if you like.

Pusta Krsna: I think the Seventh Canto will be very popular. That can be reprinted.

Hari Sauri: There are so many violent stories in the Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Ha?

Hari Sauri: There are so many descriptions of fighting in the Bhagavatam, and they by far excel anything the mundaners can even conceive of. Like where Jarasandha gets torn in half, or where his army was defeated and it describes how the bodies were floating like islands...

Prabhupada: Krsna is killing so many demons from Vrndavana.

Hari Sauri: Yes. They can't conceive of anything like that at all. It is amazing to them.

Prabhupada: Their idea is God cannot kill anyone. No?

Hari Sauri: Hm. If He's God.

Prabhupada: Isn't that the idea?

Hari Sauri: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: They have that materialistic conception of goodness.

Radha-vallabha: When we used to distribute the Back to Godhead magazine that had Balarama killing Pralambasura on the back cover, the black people would ask why the white person is killing the black one. So it was very difficult to sell that magazine to black people.

Prabhupada: You worship black Krsna. Why did you not say? Black is not neglected. We worship, you see our Deity, black Krsna.

Radha-vallabha: You are actually the best book distributor.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Radha-vallabha: You are the best book distributor. You know all the good lines.

[pause]

Radha-vallabha: The sign on the front of the Press is ordered now.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Radha-vallabha: They have ordered the sign for the front of the Press with your name, and we are going to try our best to have it up by the time you get there. Generally it takes one month for them to carve the letters, but we will try to have it up when you get there. Ramesvara said he is very, very sorry that when you originally told him about the sign he had already purchased the other letters, and he did not want to displease you by spending more money, and he is very sorry. He has immediately ordered the letters for you.

Prabhupada: That was two years ago he said that it should be taken.

Radha-vallabha: Actually, the devotees at the Press, they are…, it is wonderful how dedicated they are. Whenever a book is coming out, I give an istagosthi, and I tell them that Srila Prabhupada is desiring very much to have this book out, and they will do anything. They will stay up all night...

Prabhupada: One girl wrote some articles.

Hari Sauri: Hm. In the Back to Godhead... It was a one-page article from that girl who joined.

Prabhupada: She is working still?

Radha-vallabha: Yes. She was… I went to Princeton University Press to study some of their methods...

Prabhupada: Yes. Your name is also.

Radha-vallabha: Yes. Unfortunately. And she was there. She was the type composer.

Prabhupada: She is still with us?

Radha-vallabha: Oh, yes. Now she is transcribing Jayadvaita's and Hayagriva's tapes, the editorial tapes. She will work all day and all night also, whenever is necessary.

Prabhupada: She is married or not?

Radha-vallabha: No. Very few devotees get married now. It is very, very rare.

Prabhupada: If one is fully Krsna conscious, this marriage problem does not disturb.

Radha-vallabha: We're too busy to get married. [laughs] No time.

Prabhupada: Brahmacari… Man can remain without sex. It is not very difficult for him to. But women? Man can be trained up. He can remain throughout the whole life without sex. But it is a little difficult, unless they are given special protection. Special protection means strictly not to intermingle with any boy. Then they do. That is not possible in the Western… Otherwise she can remain brahmacarini under the protection of elder brother, or father and mother-not to allow-strict-mix freely to the boys.

Radha-vallabha: In this country if they are left under the protection of their father and mother, then their father and mother will order them to have sex life.

Prabhupada: They make the girl prostitute to bring money. I have got experience. They do not like their young girls to marry. Better find out boys, and bring money. And once woman is trained up to prostitution, she will never become faithful wife. It is impossible. She is spoilt.

Radha-vallabha: In America, if the woman is not like a prostitute, then she is ridiculed. All her friends ridicule her. Most of the degradation actually occurs in schools. When you go to school, the grade school, the elementary school and the high school and then college, this is where you learn all of this sex life, all of the intoxication. This is where you learn it. You learn it from the other children. Actually, that's the source of all the degradation. The meat-eating is taught by the parents, but everything else is school...

Prabhupada: Not only the parents. At the school they distribute contraceptive ingredients, tablets. In India it is also a problem.

Pusta Krsna: In movie screens also, cinemas.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: Cinemas. They see all the things going on on the cinema screen.

Radha-vallabha: And the filthy literatures also.

Prabhupada: Literature?

Radha-vallabha: Filthy literatures, everywhere.

Pusta Krsna: Magazines.

Hari Sauri: Every newsagent sells pornographic literature. Every newsagent.

Radha-vallabha: In a large city it is not possible to walk down a main street without seeing magazines with naked women-everywhere. That's all they have.

Hari Sauri: Even the advertisements for so-called respectable goods now, they also feature naked women and so many things. It's just not possible, in the West, to avoid it.

Prabhupada: Not only that, on public streets they are embracing, kissing.

Radha-vallabha: In India you don't even see that at all. It's very nice. Even now. In fact in places like Mayapur and Vrndavana, you won't even see a husband and wife walking together. That's very unusual.

Pusta Krsna: There's not so much emphasis on sex life there. Western society is all sex life.

Prabhupada: Unnatural life. Western society is unnatural.

Pusta Krsna: They're even making surveys that they think that people would work harder if instead of having a lunch break they would have a sex break. So the husband and wife, during lunch hour, they could have sex life and go back to work again.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Pusta Krsna: This is public news. I read it in the Time magazine.

Hari Sauri: Even in the prisons, they allow the wives of the prisoners to come so that…, and stay for the weekend at the jails. They were doing that program in England, because the men were complaining, they were becoming agitated, no sex life. They are prisoners, criminals, so they were allowing their wives to come.

Prabhupada: What if he has no wife?

Pusta Krsna: They become homosex also. Prisons are very bad. Many problems.

Radha-vallabha: One devotee went to prison, and they had to give him a special place just so he would not be attacked by other men for sex life. This was three years ago.

Prabhupada: Homosex?

Radha-vallabha: Yes. He did not want it, so he did not want to be homosexual, so they had to put him in a place where there were no other men, because practically all of them were like that. They become so insane after sex life. He escaped from prison, though. He jumped over the wall, and for three days went through the mountains with no food, and he escaped, then he went to India.

Prabhupada: He escaped, how?

Radha-vallabha: He jumped over the wall of the prison.

Prabhupada: Accha.

Radha-vallabha: Krsna empowered him. I sent books to the prison chaplain, Krsna books, so the prison chaplain would give them to him, but they came back in the mail. It said, "Cannot deliver. The prisoner has escaped."

Prabhupada: He did some service?

Radha-vallabha: The chaplain?

Prabhupada: No. He distributed some book?

Hari Sauri: No, this boy.

Devotee: Who was he? He was a devotee?

Radha-vallabha: Vidura. His name was Vidura. I have not heard of him for many years. Maybe he left. But he was a…

Prabhupada: Vidura, I think he is in Vrndavana.

Pusta Krsna: Brahmacari.

Radha-vallabha: He is thin boy, blond hair? I have not seen him in years.

Hari Sauri: He wasn't there when I was there.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari Sauri: He wasn't there when I was there.

Prabhupada: I heard the name. So he has gone to India?

Radha-vallabha: When he first escaped from prison he went to India. This was around two or three years ago.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Radha-vallabha: Then no one heard of him after that. He did not send any letters, to avoid being caught.

Prabhupada: He jumped over the wall?

Radha-vallabha: Yes. He jumped over the wall, then he went through the mountains of Pennsylvania to escape. He had his striped prison suit on. They give them a striped suit in the prison. And all the neighboring towns, they tell the people if they see anyone like that, then they will give a big reward. So he was very frightened. He was walking through towns with his striped suit, and people were seeing him.

Prabhupada: Sanatana Goswami did.

Hari Sauri: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: He also didn't want to go on the main road. He walked through the jungles.

Prabhupada: He could not jump over. He paid for that. [devotees laugh] What money he had, he paid. But he did all this for Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupada: In those days it was unique.

Radha-vallabha: Unique?

Prabhupada: How he arranged for getting free from prison.

Hari Sauri: It wasn't a very common thing to bribe the jailer?

Prabhupada: Heh?

Hari Sauri: It was not a very common thing to bribe the jailer?

Prabhupada: He had money, he bribed. But who has money?

Radha-vallabha: It was from his brother? It was Rupa Gosvami's money?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Radha-vallabha: Rupa Gosvami left one fourth for family expenditures.

Prabhupada: Fifty percent for Krsna, twenty-five percent for family, and twenty-five percent for personal emergency.

Hari Sauri: I remember when I joined the temple, I gave all my money to the temple, and then my parents found out; one friend told them. So they wrote a letter demanding to know why I hadn't sent them the money.

Radha-vallabha: The one fourth. [laughter]

Hari Sauri: No, not the one fourth. But they wanted to know why I had given all the money to the temple. They said, "You could have given it to your brother, or," he'd just got married, "or you could have given it to us, or..." Like this, very upset.

Prabhupada: When was?

Hari Sauri: They are in England.

Prabhupada: Oh. In England, you gave to our temple?

Hari Sauri: No. I joined in Sydney, so I gave to the temple in Sydney.

Prabhupada: That's all.

[devotees offer obeisances] Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Pusta Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, I remember I…, we were speaking in India… Did you want to use the Dictaphone in the afternoon or not? I don't know. [end]