Room Conversation Kavirāja Visit – November 2, 1977, Vṛndāvana

Parikrama must be there

Prabhupada: What is the news? Tamala Krsna?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: What you are going to say?

Tamala Krsna: What are we going to do?

Bhakti-caru: Going to say.

Tamala Krsna: What am I going to say?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Well, the real factor is Your Divine Grace's desire. I mean, it seems like... You know, our, as your disciples, our duty is to help you fulfill your desire. It seems like your desire is to die in Vrndavana. But it's very hard for us to execute that service. It's very hard-because we love you-to assist you in dying. It's a paradox. You want to die in Vrndavana, and we want you to live, and yet we have to do whatever you want. I mean, the kaviraja, he is giving some... He feels a little confident. Probably from medical point of view, there's no doubt, he has far superior knowledge than any of us.

Prabhupada: Visvambhara has not yet...?

Tamala Krsna: No. Visvambhara has not come yet, Srila Prabhupada. I mean for the past few days you've been saying that you want to live. Now suddenly you say that you want to die. Maybe that's simply to discourage us from... Because you feel too weak now. There's so many conflicting...

Prabhupada: [Transl. to Kaviraja: I am telling them so much that you are simply giving me medicines, you take me on parikrama one time and then just leave me here whole day.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Today?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. No. Like ...]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Now?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. every day.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Now, I mean as a doctor what I am going to say sincerely is that he should not go on parikrama for ten days now. According to the treatment being given by a Vaidya he should not be taken out.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What?]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Keeping in mind the nature and strength of your body, you should not undertake any kind of traveling.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Han.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Since you have a strong desire to go, I can try to give medicines in such a way that you can atleast reach there without any difficulty. But I can not give you permission to go in this condition. Do you understand Caru Svami? Just like, the day before yesterday Maharaja was very eager to go and said I will go with you. In about ten days he will gain strength. This is certain. So after ten days he can go safely. For ten days the medication will continue, the diet will go on. Meanwhile medicine for the heart is given two times a day. Weakness is there, blood has to increase in the body. Now you are in the anemia situation. If we make your blood test now we won't get more than 45% haemoglobin. Simply by the power of our medication and your self confidence can we allow you to travel. But as a patient I cannot permit you to go.]

Prabhupada: Hun?

Prabhupada: [Transl. These people won't agree.] [Bhakti-caru laughs.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. These people won't agree. Oh. The hand, the swelling in the hand is less.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Yes. It is less.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. He is saying, you all won't agree to send him. After ten days I will come back to take you.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Whatever you will order I will follow.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Svamiji, for you I am ready to sacrifice all self interest. You have done so much and so important work in your life that I can surely leave behind all my work and come for two days to take you. You need not worry for me. If you call me from London I will come to meet you. Even if there is some loss I don't care. May your health be sound all the time and you complete the rest of the work. I have already prepared the ark. The medicines I will arrange which will be enough for one week. After all, on the tenth day from now I will return here and find you in good health. This I am saying from the medical point of view. But you have got so much self confidence, and you are a devotee of the Lord. I have faith in my medicine, I won't let any risk come in the way. I will make sure you reach there safely. Now whether you want to go or not you decide. What do you say, Caru Svami?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Yes. That's right.]

[whispering by Svarūpa Damodara as he tries to explain what kaviraja is saying]

Bhakti-caru: [to Tamala Krsna:] Do you understand? He's saying that "As a physician, in this condition, I wouldn't advise you to go. But if you desire to go there, then I have enough confidence on my medicine, and since you have the will, so I can assure you that I can take you over there safely. Now it's up to you whether you want to go or whether you want to stay." He's saying that "If you stay here for ten more days, then you'll become strong enough and you can travel." And he's willing to come back again after about a week, and then he'll stay here for a day or two and then take him.

Svarūpa Damodara: I think that's a good idea. Don't you, Maharaja?

Bhakti-caru: Srila Prabhupada is saying that... Srila Prabhupada wants to stay here, but we want him to take...

Tamala Krsna: He wants to stay here, that's a fact.

Kaviraja: [Transl. One thing is sure that your illness will be cured. There is no doubt about it. The way the medicines have worked on you so far, I am very pleased with that. I have full faith that you will get back to good health very soon. The energy level has gone down so much day by day. We have no glucose that we can give you through intravenous dripping so that you get strength instantly.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What?]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Just like the Doctors give glucose reduction and the patient gains strength instantly, immediately. But the strength you get from the medicines is enduring. Whatever improvement will come that will come gradually and will stay permanently. Did you have appetite to eat something today?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Not very much.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. More appetite will come from tomorrow. But today, did you give him kichri?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Yes. We gave little kichri. He didn't eat much. He tasted very little.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Like this he will eat little by little and that way his appetite will increase and he will start eating.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Now he asks, now he wants to eat. But before...]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Water, how much water did you give him? Have him drink water as much as possible.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Water he doesn't drink. He takes fruit juice and a little bit of water along with medicine.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Then you give him more quantity of fruit juice.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Let me show you.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. This swelling when it reduces or when the water subsides, then the body will require water.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Six hundred milliliter.]

Tamala Krsna: What is that?

Bhakti-caru: Water intake, liquid.

Tamala Krsna: How much urine has he passed since six o'clock this morning?

Bhakti-caru: Since six this morning.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. Six o'clock this morning.

Prabhupada: Brahmananda.

Brahmananda: Yes, Prabhupada?

Bhakti-caru: Two hundred and twenty. [Transl. To kaviraja: Two hundred and twenty, urine.]

Tamala Krsna: The whole day?

Bhakti-caru: No, since six.

Tamala Krsna: And the whole day?

Bhakti-caru: The whole day it's 320.

Kaviraja: [Transl. Now it is 320?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. From last night 12 A.M. up until now it is 320.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Today is less.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Yes. Today is less.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. When the water will go out from the swelling, the intake of the water will be less and so the urine will be normal.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. It is not 320, it is 445.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. 445, The cause of more urine now is that the water from the swelling is coming out. It is coming out, when there is no water left, no more swelling, no intake of water, then from where the urine will come?]

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Brahmananda: Just translating what the doctor is saying.

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Everyone wants to hear]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Now the important thing for me is to go and learn English. This is the only trouble in me. I think I have to keep a teacher for me to learn English.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. You come and stay with us.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. How? I have tied the noose around my neck. Family life.]

Brahmananda: If there's any risk, Prabhupada, in traveling, then you shouldn't take that risk. The doctor will come back here next week, and then we can see.

Prabhupada: In the morning the symptom was that.

Kaviraja: [Transl. The best course would be now is to keep him here for ten days. According to medical treatment this I told the day before yesterday and I am telling now also.]

Bhakti-caru: He's saying, from the treatment point of view, it's best if Srila Prabhupada stays here for ten more days here.

Tamala Krsna: Tell him that the only reason we had any reservation about that was because if some side effect develops, then he is not here to help, and we have to take the help of this other person, who we do not trust.

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. The main reason behind our going is dependence on you.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. See, my medicine has started working. There will be no disturbance at all. This is my convinction. It is good you have faith in me and I have faith in my man. I will give him necessary guidance so that there will be no mistakes on his part.]

Bhakti-caru: He's saying that now his medicine started working. So he'll give one day's medicine, and that he's confident that that medicine will work.

Tamala Krsna: One day's?

Bhakti-caru: Seven days. And apart from that, he's saying that that boy, he has got confidence in him that whatever instruction he gives, he will follow. He is going to follow that, not like other physicians. He wouldn't try to administer his own medicine.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, but supposing there's a symptom which he has not predicted at this time?

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. If suppose there are some side effects in your absence then.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. There will be no side effect.]

Adri-dharana: [Transl. What if symptoms appear?]

Kaviraja: [Transl. No symptom or anything will come. If it was to come it would have come by now. This I am telling you.]

Bhakti-caru: He says that nothing will happen.

Adri-dharana: [Transl. What will happen when he is not there?]

Bhakti-caru: He's saying that the main thing... He found out the main defect in the body.

Kaviraja: [Transl. And if there is any problem at all, if you telephone me even two o'clock at night I will get up and come.]

Bhakti-caru: He's saying that if anything is wrong, then we can ring him up and he'll come immediately.

Adri-dharana: [Transl. Take the next flight.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. I will come immediately. I will stop all my work and come. When I will come next time I will make arrangement so that I can stay here seven/eight days. I earn 2/3 hundred rupees perday. That will be stopped. What is there? But I will have a chance to serve him. I will give the responsibility to my son and come here. This time I have come suddenly just for a day or two.]

Adri-dharana: Next time, when he comes, make arrangement to come here for a long time.

Bhakti-caru: Say, at least about a week, so that he can stay here for about a week. This time he came absolutely unprepared, and...

Prabhupada: Turn me this way.

Kaviraja: [Transl. What?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. He wants to turn this side.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Remove it.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. The pillow.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Well, His heart has become stronger than before. Is it not Caru Svami?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Yes.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Now there is so much pressure on the heart, it is unable to bear it. Because there is less blood he feels dizzy again and again. Pressure is alright. It is neither high nor low.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Yes.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. He is perfectly in good condition. Doctor, do you understand?]

Tamala Krsna: Svarūpa Damodara is here, Srila Prabhupada.

Kaviraja: [Transl. Today he took barley two times or three times?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Today, only one time.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Give him two times at least.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Barley I will give in the evening. I tried to give him at noon time but...]

Kaviraja: [Transl. He doesn't drink water no? So give him pomegranate juice.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Pomegranate juice. Okay.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. In the urine report the other day there was no trace of sugar in him no? Where is the report?]

Bhakti-caru: Maharaja, do you have the urine report?

Tamala Krsna: Can you go in my file under "M"? There's a folder, an envelope. Bring that envelope. Big envelope.

Kaviraja: [Transl. I was always worried that his blood urea may not increase. It has not increased.]

Svarūpa Damodara: [Transl. No blood urea.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. No. This is the best news. This is the best symptom. If urine is normal then blood urea will not increase. Another thing is he should not talk to anybody for ten days.]

Svarūpa Damodara: [Transl. For about ten days...]

Adri-dharana: ...for about ten days, Prabhupada should not speak to anybody.

Svarūpa Damodara: Not much.

Tamala Krsna: Not speak to anybody. Well that's all right with me, but whether Srila Prabhupada...

Kaviraja: [Transl. No. By speaking the energy will exhaust.]

Svarūpa Damodara: We won't allow him to have guests.

Kaviraja: [Transl. If any guest comes, he should not speak at all. He will only fold his hands.]

Tamala Krsna: What about this parikrama? Prabhupada wants...

Kaviraja: [Transl. The energy that is derived from silence, gets lost by speaking.]

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada feels that that must go on.

Svarūpa Damodara: [Transl. Can he do parikrama?]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Considering the condition of the patient, he should not do parikrama.]

Tamala Krsna: As a patient he doesn't...

Kaviraja: [Transl. If at all he wants to go on parikrama, then I will give him a special dose of medicine for the heart.]

Adri-dharana: If he insists on going on parikrama, he can give a special medicine for the heart.

Tamala Krsna: He's pretty insistent.

[Pause]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Sugar is nil. Everything else is okay. There is no sugar. Do that tomorrow.]

Svarūpa Damodara: [Transl. Is it reducing?]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Is it nil? Then it is fine. Yes. It is nil. Okay.]

[indistinct discussion in background]

Tamala Krsna: So is this all right, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Tamala Krsna: That we'll wait here for another week to ten days, and Shastriji will give us medicine. The kaviraja will give us medicine, and you can take it for another week or so. After a week's time he'll come back, and then, after a few days, he'll take you to Mayapur.

Prabhupada: At least at present this decision will be good.

Tamala Krsna: This decision is good. He says that you should not do so much talking, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: I'll not talk.

Svarūpa Damodara: For about ten days.

Tamala Krsna: I've never seen this possible, though. [laughter] You always speak of Krsna. That is your life and soul-sravanam kirtanam. He says if you insist on going on parikrama, then he will give you a little medicine which will help you.

Prabhupada: Parikrama must be there.

Tamala Krsna: All right.

Kaviraja: [Transl. Will he go on parikrama? Alright. I will give him a special dose of medicine and he can do. Parikrama should not be done for a long time. Three, four rounds take a long time.]

Svarūpa Damodara: He said not many rounds.

Bhakti-caru: Once is not done. [Transl. Doing one round parikrama is...]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Prohibited?]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Yes. It should be more than one.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. It should be four.]

Prabhupada: Three.

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Three.]

Tamala Krsna: Three times.

Kaviraja: [Transl. eka canḍa one round for goddess, ravau sapta seven rounds for Sūrya, tisro dadyat vinayaka three rounds for Ganesa, and catuḥsra kesavi vidyat four rounds for Krsna.]

Tamala Krsna: Four times? That's all right. Three times around, into the temple, and one more time. That will be nice. Four times.

Kaviraja: [Transl. Alright. What is there? Do four times parikrama.]

Tamala Krsna: Is that all right? Will that be all right, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: We have given four times.

Tamala Krsna: We're doing a lot more than four now. We do about ten. Smara-hari knows, because he carries you. [laughs]

Kaviraja: [Transl. He does not remember how many rounds. So many rounds you can circumumbulate the Lord, it is still less.]

Tamala Krsna: So then we'll make this program, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: And you should keep making the effort, Srila Prabhupada, to get better. Anyway, Krsna may desire for you to get better, Srila Prabhupada. At least it is our duty to pray like that.

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. So you will leave tomorrow only? Or you have some other...]

Kaviraja: [Transl. No. I have no other work here. Let me go. I told you no? There will be no need for me. If need arises, I will come immediately. There is Telephone facility. You can make lightning call and contact me immediately. Day or night, wherever I stay, I will give you the telephone number, anytime you can call. I will be by the telephone all the time, any time.]

Adri-dharana: [Transl. If it is like that, you come and see him and then go back.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Telegram, telephone whatever is suitable.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Telephone, If anything happens, may the Lord not do so...]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Nothing will happen. My inner soul tells. Nothing will happen. Rather there will be improvement. When I come back I will see him much better.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Let him take little rest.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. I will prepare the medicine.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. Okay. Will you go upstairs?]

Kaviraja: [Transl. Yes. I will go upstairs. Send the mortar upstairs.]

Bhakti-caru: [Transl. I will bring it upstairs. Also I will write down the details of the medicines.]

Kaviraja: [Transl. So I take your leave now. I will come back to take you healthy. Weakness is there no? Although I can take you on the strength of my medicine, still weakness is there. Here you are fully under the shelter of the Supreme Lord. You are as good as God. Parikrama, you may do or may not do, you are just like Krsna.]

Prabhupada: Tamala Krsna?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: So... In Bengali there is such thing, "When you hesitate, don't do it."

Tamala Krsna: Yes, we also sometimes feel that when there's a hesitation, it seems like the Supersoul is giving indication.

Prabhupada: But he has not also come? Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Bhagatji?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: He has not come yet.

Prabhupada: So when he will come?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, I am also beginning to wonder. He was supposed to come by at least four or five o'clock. I'm sure he'll have a good reason, but until he comes I cannot speculate on why he's late.

Prabhupada: Not only late. The other person, whether they will come at night?

Tamala Krsna: Well, that's probably why he is late, because they would only come at night. That's my... Last time this was also done at about this time, Srila Prabhupada. These men work all day in the court, and they can't come until in the evening.

Prabhupada: And suppose he does not come?

Tamala Krsna: Well, if he does not come, then I'll have to find out why he didn't come.

Prabhupada: And then you will have to postpone? They'll have to postpone.

Tamala Krsna: Well, if they don't come, then certainly we'll have to postpone this signing, because they won't be here. Are you feeling up to signing anything tonight? I don't think so. You feel a little too much... You can do? Let us see if they come. I think they're going to come. Of course, it is getting pretty late. Anyway, we'll see.

Svarūpa Damodara: Quarter to nine.

Tamala Krsna: In any case, you're not at any loss. You're laying here. Just I think now I'll turn off the light. Do you like some little kirtana? Singing? You haven't been having kirtana lately in your room very much, Srila Prabhupada. Anyway, if you like, we'll just keep it quiet here and turn off the light. Would you prefer that?

Prabhupada: Light you can keep.

[indistinct whispered discussion]

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: I have to give the key to the door. I keep the door locked when I'm not in the room.

Svarūpa Damodara: [whispering] I made two members today for the Institute.

Tamala Krsna: If you stay longer on this planet, Srila Prabhupada, that will make this Movement stronger. That is the real reason for living longer. 'Cause you are a pure devotee of Lord Krsna, you have no personal desire. This is Krsna's Movement. If you stay longer, then this Movement will become stronger and stronger. Simply by your presence the devotees become inspired, and they work much better. We can understand that there's nothing to lament if you were to depart, because you're always going to be with Krsna. But we would have to lament from our own point of view that we would lose you, at least in the way that we have you now. And the whole world would lament because this Movement might not be as strong if you were not present.

Prabhupada: Then make this arrangement, one week or ten days.

Tamala Krsna: We are doing that. We have already agreed to that. Actually I could see from the very beginning that that's what we were going to do, but sometimes I feel it is my duty to give good arguments for some opposite opinion just to see both sides. Ultimately we are prepared to be with you wherever you want to be. To us that is home. That is our great pleasure, to be with you. So we're making that arrangement, Srila Prabhupada.

[break] [offers obeisances] Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Do you think that without finishing this business we shall go?

Tamala Krsna: Without finishing the business of these..., this legal business?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes. This legal business is not what would keep us here.

Prabhupada: Then how it will... How it will be done?

Tamala Krsna: I mean, it can be executed in Mayapur as well.

Prabhupada: How?

Tamala Krsna: Mr. Das, our friend from Calcutta, can come. It's pretty much now... It's already drafted, and... It would just have to be redrafted again on new stamp paper, or the words would have to be changed. It says... It would have to be retyped on stamp paper from Bengal side. The basic writing is...

Prabhupada: That means unfinished despite unfinished.

Tamala Krsna: [laughs] Srila Prabhupada...

Prabhupada: Hmm? It is past nine.

Tamala Krsna: So maybe this is the reason we're not going.

Prabhupada: No. Even if we decide to go, that means despite unfinishing...

Tamala Krsna: Yes, I really don't feel that this would be enough of a reason to stay here. The whole consideration of whatever we do is your health. That is the major consideration. Our going was on account of your health; our staying now is on account of your health. These other things may be done or not. That doesn't matter. I work all day doing all of your other businesses only because I know that your health is well looked after. Otherwise, if I thought it wasn't, I would drop whatever else I'm doing and simply do this, take care of you here. There's so many qualified men doing that, so I don't... I'm engaging myself in your other businesses. Otherwise, the main thing is that first of all you should be..., we should try to help you to get better. And if I say, "If you want to take rest," you take rest and don't be worried that this business may not get done tonight. That is not the issue at all.

Prabhupada: But how is that they did not come?

Tamala Krsna: This is very strange. I must admit I'm very surprised, very, very surprised. I think the only possible answer to it can be that the work itself was difficult work, plus there must have been some other works that either the lawyer had to do or the notary had to do, and so it just could not... I mean after all, this was very, very quickly done. When we decided that we were going to go, it was only on Monday. That means yesterday morning that we decided that we were going to leave. So I mean from yesterday morning until tonight is practically not even... It's hardly enough time to do the legal work that we wanted to do. It was a real strain. Actually, it would have been very surprising if we do get it done by tonight. That would be very surprising.

Prabhupada: I don't think. It is past nine.

Tamala Krsna: You don't think they'll come now. No, I also don't think. I mean it's not good etiquette to come at this hour for business. It's nearly nine-thirty, Srila Prabhupada. I mean I don't think that... If you'll permit me to request them, even if they do come now, that we do it on another day, then I would prefer to do that. Oh, I hear Bhagatji. [goes and returns] So they're all here, Srila Prabhupada. So we can go to Mayapur now. [laughs] So I better... First I'll have to go through all of the documents and see that they're in order. Then I'll bring them in here and we'll finish this business.

Prabhupada: Then let us go.

Tamala Krsna: [laughs] You want to go to Mayapur?

Prabhupada: As you are saying, I'll go.

Tamala Krsna: No, Srila Prabhupada, I mean you guide us. As you say, we will do. There's no... The doctor advises, "Better to remain." His medical opinion is that you should wait here for another ten days.

Prabhupada: So do that.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. He said the only reason... He said, "However, if you really feel that you want to go," he says, "I guarantee you that there will be no risk." That he promises. If you want to go, there will not be risk. But from a medical point of view he says, "I advise that you get stronger before making the trip, because it will be easier."

Prabhupada: So do that.

Tamala Krsna: So that's our program. We're going to wait here ten days. After seven days, doctor is coming back. Kaviraja is coming back. He'll also by that time have arranged so that when he comes he can stay even up to a week if necessary.

Prabhupada: And I'll get some strength.

Tamala Krsna: That's his point, yes. He feels confident that you'll get strength. Is that all right? And I'll go now and... [end]