Room Conversation – February 2, 1977, Bhubaneswar

As soon as a man becomes mad, then he is finished

Svarūpa Damodara: They say the intelligence is a molecular interaction, in nervous system, in the brain. So...

Prabhupada: The interaction, but not..., that is not the brain.

Svarūpa Damodara: They say the brain is...

Prabhupada: Two, two physical elements, just like electricity contacting. The electricity as it is, it is not that wire, or the physical things. It is subtle.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, it is subtle, but...

Prabhupada: So what..., whether..., this subtle cannot be seen, but the thing is there.

Svarūpa Damodara: That is actually true. That is a fact. Say, for example, in the law of gravitation, that Newton's laws of gravitation, though the mathematical formula can be established, but we do not know how it acts. It is...

Prabhupada: Unseen.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, it is unseen, and it is..., it is inconceivable but it, it is there. That science admits that. Even Newton admitted.

Prabhupada: So why not show?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, that's what actually we are bringing to our discussion...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...that these laws exist, but these laws are beyond our knowledge, or beyond our comprehension. In other words, it is acintya. It is inconceivable, but these laws are there.

Prabhupada: Not that acintya, but cintya, because we can understand there is.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah. We...

Prabhupada: But neither, not within our experiment.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, that is, yeah, that is the point.

Prabhupada: So it is not acintya, it is cintya.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah. We, we perceive that..., that these laws exist, but how these laws existing we do not know.

Prabhupada: That is another thing, but you have to admit that they..., it exists.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, it exists.

Prabhupada: Similarly, we have to accept, then, the soul exists.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah. In fact, that is the point that we are also bringing. The soul in the...

Prabhupada: Exists. The soul exists, the mind exists, the intelligence exists, although they are not perceivable by these gross senses.

Svarūpa Damodara: And the consciousness exists.

Prabhupada: Everything exists. That we have to place in your scientific discussion, how this subtle situation carrying the soul. Above that subtle situation is gross situation. That is this body. So they are stressing on the gross situation, but subtle situation they have no knowledge, but it is perceived daily.

Svarūpa Damodara: That is true.

Prabhupada: Hmm. That we have to talk. The subtle situation can carry the soul to the spiritual world. As there is spirit and matter, two things, apara and para, that is we can perceive, and we get it from Krsna's statement, apara para. So in via media between this para and apara, I have this subtle situation. So if the subtle situation is spiritualized, then we are..., the soul is transferred to the spiritual world. This we have to prove, or have to write in scientific journal. They are seeing simply the gross situation, but the soul is being carried by the subtle situation. Therefore they are thinking this gross situation, body, is finished, everything is finished. That's not the fact.

Svarūpa Damodara: So it is the drawback.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: That is the drawback in science.

Prabhupada: Everything drawback. Simply bluffing, that's all. Theirs is... Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. Anyone who is not a devotee of the Lord, he is, his whole life, in drawback. He is, he has no value. When he is condemned so much, duskrtinaḥ, mūḍhaḥ, naradhama, mayayapahrta, what can he be? So condemned. Most mischievous, a rascal, ass, lowest of the mankind. And so he has passed so many degrees, and mayayapahrta-jnanaḥ-finished. He is so condemned. So anyone who has no knowledge about this Krsna consciousness, we don't give any position. Any position. It is not possible. Pisaci paile yena. When a man becomes mad, what position, he may be high-court judge, but because he has become mad, he has no position. He's useless. You may say that he is a high-court judge. Now that's all right, but in his present position, because he is mad: no value. I have seen. My father-in-law's house, in front there was a very, a famous scientist, Indumadhava Mullik, you know him?

Svarūpa Damodara: Mullik?

Prabhupada: Indumadhava Mullik. He was engineer, medical practitioner and scientist. Of course he was practicing as a medical man. And a great scholar. Great scholar, he, he used to study; he passed in engineering examination, medical examination and ordinary M.A., Ph.D., like that. Later on he became so mad, and naked he was running on the street, in front of my father-in-law's house. So what was his value? The same man, being so much educated in so many… But when he became mad, who cares for him? So this… Anyone who is under the influence of this material energy is like that. Although he is part and parcel of God, he is mad.

As soon as a man becomes mad, then he is finished. And whatever he'll speak, ah, that is all madness. It is..., there is no importance. This is mad. Basic principle is mad.

Svarūpa Damodara: The, the madness that scientists are experiencing different from that. They are illusioned, in the sense that they know very little of..., some part of law, natural law. Then from there they try to extrapolate, extrapolate to different degrees.

Prabhupada: You can extrapolate in this for so many ways, but just to understand. A very educated man, when he becomes mad, then we say: no value. It is like that.

Svarūpa Damodara: For example...

Prabhupada: You cannot give him the same position. Say a high-court judge, just like this. When he has become mad you cannot give him that he will sit down on the... No. That is not. Finished. Again, by treatment, if you come, if you bring him in sanity, then he can work. That the potentially, potencity, the potency is not finished; but since he has become mad, his qualification is finished.

Svarūpa Damodara: That is also our argument.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: For example, in a circle, like, let's say a big circle. Now science, many mathematician can find any cohesion forming, just taking small, two points forming a..., follow the straight line, cohesion of straight line. Now from there he can conclude that if you continue that circle, or that circle along..., along the circumference, it may be a straight line, but actually it is a circle. So his first knowledge, that two points forming a..., an equation of straight line, that's not going to give the circumference of the circle. In other words, he concludes that instead of a circle it may be a straight line. So we are saying that..., so our knowledge of the certain thing is very limited. From there, if we extrapolate something which is beyond our actual knowledge, then it becomes..., just becomes false.

Prabhupada: Yes. Beyond our knowledge is false. It is false. But the..., beyond our knowledge, when he receives from authority, the same example: it is beyond my knowledge who is my father, but if we receive it from mother it is correct. The subject matter it is beyond my knowledge, but if I receive the knowledge from the right person, then it is correct. Aroha-pantha avaroha-pantha. There are so many things in our conditional state beyond our knowledge. Therefore we have to take shelter of Veda, sruti. This is our process: Veda. That knowledge is perfect, coming from God, by parampara system: from Krsna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasa, Vyasa, like that. That this is..., this, this is perfect. Otherwise, this way it is all imperfect. That way it is perfect.

Svarūpa Damodara: The deductive knowledge.

Prabhupada: Hmm. That is perfect.

Svarūpa Damodara: We have a chapter on descending process.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: The right process of acquiring knowledge must be descending.

Prabhupada: Avaroha. So the avaroha-pantha, that knowledge is aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Krsna says devanam. In this material world the first deva is Brahma, and... First deva is Visnu. So Visnu and Krsna is the same, but actually others, it begins from Brahma. From Brahma, Siva, Narada, like that. They are all devas. So Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam. Therefore this knowledge is coming directly from Krsna through the parampara system, and the Bhagavad-gita is the same thing: it is the Lord coming down still to facilitate the business. He is speaking-that is recorded-directly to the human being, Arjuna. Therefore, this is the right source of knowledge.

Svarūpa Damodara: We're trying to do some experiments on..., on biology to support our statements. So actually yesterday there was one..., one doctorate here, and he stayed long and we talked together. He had Ph.D. from the United States.

Prabhupada: Hmm!

Svarūpa Damodara: Found out he was in the audience.

Prabhupada: In science?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, he was in agriculture. He had his Ph.D. from the University of Missouri. And I was talking about doing some experiments with him. I wanted to do this experiment to prove that life in the living body, the..., the chemical reactions in the living body, is different from normal chemistry that we know. In fact there are some examples, and there is a French scientist called Guerin in..., in France. He is doing some experiment on, along these lines, and I wrote him a letter saying how all, all of his latest findings. He has written some small two books called biological transmutations. It's mainly in France, but French, but it's translated in English. And he wrote me back saying that some of his findings are beyond our chemistry that we know of at this time. And so... And the letters are very useful in our concept that life is non-physical, or non-chemical, to prove that on purely scientific basis, that there...

Prabhupada: Non-chemical, non-physical, it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Non-chemical...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, but we want to prove it, to show it...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...on experimental basis. So it's..., it's a very simple experiment. We germinate some, some seeds, like barley or rice, and then we calculate the amount of, let's say calcium, contains some elements, calcium and magnesium. Now we calculate the amount of calcium before it germinates, the total amount of calcium. Now it, it can be germinated in a, in a filter paper-it's called "ashless"; means it's completely composed of pure cellulose. And then we germinate and we put water. That water is completely devoid of calcium; it's very..., called deionized water. In other words, it removes all the ions like calcium and magnesium, and then it germinates. And when it germinates, if we analyze the calcium content, then they found that..., Guerin found that the amount of calcium has, has increased. So we, we do not know how that calcium is coming, and that is beyond chemistry, the, our present knowledge of chemistry, and if we can show that...

Prabhupada: That is due to germination. That soul has come, germinated, and it has produced chemical.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. Something, it is coming some..., from somewhere.

Prabhupada: And that is soul.

Svarūpa Damodara: And another..., there is another nice experiment. There is a parasite called Spanish moss, it's available very much in Florida. All the, from the trees this moss is coming down. And he found that the Spanish moss grows in copper wire, and then it produces iron. So he has some nice experiments, and this can be done in department of agriculture.

Prabhupada: That means life produces matter.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. This is...

Prabhupada: Not the matter produces life. This is established. When there is life, these matters come out-iron, chemicals, calcium.

Svarūpa Damodara: There are some experiments along those lines which... And there is another nice experiment which is shown by a German scientist. He just died not too long ago. His name is Hauschka. He was doing some experiments in the moon, in the moonlight. So what he did was, he measured the..., the amount of a certain element in a plant, a flower-don't exactly remember-and he measures according to the, the waxing and the waning of the moon, and it becomes maximum in the full moon, at the full moon, full moon night, and then he just...

Prabhupada: All vegetables...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, the vegetables.

Prabhupada: ...they are influenced by moon...

Svarūpa Damodara: And this is a nice experiment. It is a curve.

Prabhupada: ...moonshine. Similarly, the shining brahma-jyoti is full of living entities.

Svarūpa Damodara: So these are beyond science. These are beyond...

Prabhupada: Not beyond. You do not know that science. Not beyond.

Svarūpa Damodara: "Beyond science" means beyond our present science...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...scientific knowledge.

Prabhupada: Present science is imperfect. It is in science, within science. That is spiritual science. Not beyond science. Jnanam vijnanam. That is vijnanam. Therefore I have named the magazine Sa-vijnanam. They are busy with jnanam. Jnanam me paramam guhyam yad vijnana-samanvita [SB 2.9.31]. And the, the Bhagavad-gita is also there. What is that? Aham te pravaksyamy anasūyave, jnanam te' ham sa-vijnanam pravaksyamy anasūyave. Find out this verse. Where he is?

Devotee: Panḍitji? He's coming.

Prabhupada: Yes. So be in contact with all these big, big scientists all over the country, and by correspondence agitate this science.

"I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and nomenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known." Srila Prabhupada said that we should..., we should translate this as practical scientific knowledge, the title of the journal, Sa-vijnanam. So we write within the parentheses, "Practical scientific knowledge." Is that, uh...?

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Gopala Krsna: Then the Americans will understand it.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, that's what we'll be doing. We will go to..., as soon as I finish this. Then we have a desire to meet all these scholars, in all fields.

Prabhupada: You should, all universities you go. All universities. You three or four, you go. Talk with them. First you will write scholarly.

Svarūpa Damodara: Some time ago three of us...

Prabhupada: It is called visva-vijaya. For..., formerly learned scholar he used to do that. Digvijaya. Digvijaya. "I have got this knowledge." You challenge, "Come on! Defeat me, or I defeat you." So whoever is defeated, he becomes his disciple. Digvijaya. Just like one digvijaya panḍita came in Navadvipa, to defeat the learned scholar of Navadvipa, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu defeated.

Gopala Krsna: Kashmiri.

Prabhupada: Kashmiri. So this was the system. So you go out, digvijaya, travel all over the world. Now you are qualified to speak; they must defeat you. Or if they are defeated, they must, must accept. This is wanted. Digvijayi panḍita.

Svarūpa Damodara: A few months ago I went to Boston...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...and three of us went to MIT.

Prabhupada: Oh, MIT, that, yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: We went to the, the...

Prabhupada: I challenged them when I...

Svarūpa Damodara: Ah.

Prabhupada: "Heh, where is your technology department, a dead man can be given life?" [laughter]

Svarūpa Damodara: They have a big building, Srila Prabhupada, called Artificial Intelligence, Department of Artificial Intelligence. So we, we just went, just to see what they're doing. First of all they didn't allow, they didn't want us to, to come. Then we requested that we come from far, and we are interested in mathematics and in computer, in science, and we want to know what this artificial intelligence that you are doing. Then finally they allowed us to..., to come in. So we went in, and there was a Ph.D. student who was doing his Ph.D. work on..., on this computer. Then he showed us all the, all the labs they have, and then...

Prabhupada: Huge arrangement.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. Then we started talking about intelligence, what is intelligence, and then we thought that very intelligence, there must be consciousness. And then we had a roundtable, and some sort of a conference, and he was, he was telling us that the intelligence, artificial intelligence, what they mean is that in the future they will have cars or airplanes driven-let's say airplanes-driven without a pilot, cars driven without a driver.

Prabhupada: That can be done. That can be done.

Svarūpa Damodara: That can be done.

Prabhupada: That is... No, that can be done. Just like they are doing now.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So just like they are sending sputnik, but the working is going on in the laboratory.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that's very... Intelligence, there is no intelligence. The intelligence yes, in the laboratory.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, that is the point.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: And then we said, then your..., the name "artificial intelligence" as a..., the title itself is wrong.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: It shouldn't be used.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: They have many plans, and they have many dollars to spend with, and their faculty was about some thirty or thirty-five members, professors. They had about twenty-five students, graduate students. Then finally they said that, that this, this student, he said they have been trying to do so many things, but they are failing in so many ways.

Prabhupada: [laughs]

Svarūpa Damodara: And then I said why do you, why do you spend time like this? He, he said it's, it's just for fun. Get money and...

Prabhupada: Just see, how foolish they are.

Gopala Krsna: They have to keep themselves busy doing something.

Prabhupada: That is their position. They have no intelligence, still they have to pose themselves as intelligent, and draw money, that's all. Pose themselves as intelligent amongst the fools and take money from government. This is going on.

Svarūpa Damodara: That's actually true. They are getting a lot of money from the government.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Doing all these things.

Prabhupada: Especially in America.

Gopala Krsna: In America research is the second biggest industry.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then let them research honestly. When they are failure in their research, they must accept the knowledge in the Vedas. Then it will be success. They must admit their failure. Your business is to prove that they are failure. Then that is our triumph. It is not success; it is failure.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, actually that is true. It can be proved just from their own results. Just like Srila Prabhupada once told us that we should use..., we should utilize their own findings to prove that they are wrong.

Prabhupada: Failure.

Svarūpa Damodara: Actually, that is, that... It's possible. There are many scientific truths which are not reported. Something which they cannot explain, they just keep it hidden. But there are many facts like that. So we were compiling. We have in fact a chapter called "The errors and the defects in science." So we're bringing all these errors and all these cheating...

Prabhupada: That is sufficient for us. Bring their defects.

Svarūpa Damodara: Even our mathematician, Sadapūta, he found out that Newton himself cheated in his...

Prabhupada: They must cheat. Any conditioned soul, he must cheat, because he is not perfect. He must cheat. To keep his prestige he must cheat. The four defects are there: illusion, mistakes, cheating and imperfect. Bhrama, pramada, karanapatava.

Svarūpa Damodara: So when they bring out these, these hidden defects, then since these are there but these are not normally reported to..., to outside, but if you bring out, then they become quiet, because they were...

Prabhupada: That they, they are cheating; they must be quiet. Maunam sammati laksanam. As soon as they become quiet, that means admit, "Yes, I've cheated." Otherwise he will refute. He knows that "I am cheating in these points." So when somebody catches him, "You have cheated here," then he keeps quiet. That means admits. That we have to do. Simply to point out the defects. Bhrama, pramada, karanapatava, vipralipsa: illusion, mistake, imperfect senses and cheating. These things are the property among the conditioned souls. What he'll learn, and what he'll teach? His position is mistake, illusion, imperfect sense and cheating. Anyone. Only one who is devotee, he will hesitate. Therefore one who is not devotee, he will go on with these four assets, rascal assets: mistake, illusion, imperfect sense and cheating. This is their position. Falsely they want to pose themselves as very learned scholar. You can keep yourselves as false prestige, but why you mislead others?

Svarūpa Damodara: There is also, we are saying that you're..., you're saying a little too much. You're going a little too far.

Prabhupada: [laughing] Yes, beyond your capacity.

Svarūpa Damodara: So for example their announcement...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is called "A dwarf is trying to catch moon."

Svarūpa Damodara: So there is..., actually there is no foundation that life should come from chemicals. That, because if we analyze purely from scientific angle, scientific knowledge, there is no way that one can say like that. And with the knowledge that we have at the moment they are saying a little too much. They know this little, but they extrapolate so much, and they are concluding...

Prabhupada: Speculation.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. So we are saying that let's be honest...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...and...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...try to analyze this from purely..., pure knowledge.

Prabhupada: "Why you become dishonest and at the same time big scientist? How is that?"

Svarūpa Damodara: Not only that they themselves are dishonest; they teach this to the students.

Prabhupada: Again...

Svarūpa Damodara: Millions of students.

Prabhupada: ...cheating. That is cheating. To keep their position. So at least if you can prove that these are dishonest and cheater, that will be our triumph.

Gopala Krsna: I think it would be a good idea for them to write articles in newspapers also. Newspapers, magazines.

Prabhupada: Eh, that...

Svarūpa Damodara: We are trying to put many articles in many scientific journals too.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Plus...

Prabhupada: That is...

Svarūpa Damodara: ...our journal.

Prabhupada: ...that is more important. Ordinary newspaper has no value. If you write in the scientific journal, then it will carry value.

Gopala Krsna: Attract these scientists, sincere.

Prabhupada: Scientists and their leaders.

Svarūpa Damodara: There is a journal very recently published in science.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: It's called The Foundations of Physics, started only about six or seven years ago. There, they are a group of scientists like sometimes...

Prabhupada: Scientific American, there is one...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, Scientific American is also there, but...

Gopala Krsna: Same thing.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah. We subscribe Scientific American, and we use some of the... They have very nice pictures.

Prabhupada: I, from 1917, or '16, when I entered college, we saw in our college, Scientific American. The... In Scientific American, a long, long ago, in this 1916, '17, I saw one picture that a human being is engaged constructing big skyscraper building framework, iron, but he has lost his knowledge of soul. I saw this picture. He is busy, externally, for constructing framework of a big skyscraper building, but he does not know what is his spirit. This I saw; I remember. It is thoughtful. He does not know what he is, what is going to happen. Nothing. Mūḍhaḥ nabhijanati mam ebhyaḥ paramam avyayam.

And for flimsy material activities he is losing his opportunity of life. And we are trying to save him, that "This is not important. Real importance is to know yourself, tatha dehantara-praptir [Bg 2.13]." But they are being misled to be captivated by the huge iron structure. What this iron structure will help you? It will remain where you have constructed. You have to go with your subtle position and enter into another gross position that is different from this gross position. You are lost.

[pause] So what about that doctor from California? He is engaged yet somewhere?

Svarūpa Damodara: No, he is not from California; from Missouri.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarūpa Damodara: The..., the doctor that came yesterday?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, he is involved in some research department in agriculture here. He is coming today. He came... He said he always wanted to see Srila Prabhupada in the United States. He came back in '74, and he said he never got an opportunity to, but he, he heard about Srila Prabhupada, and he always wanted to see Srila Prabhupada, but he, he didn't get the opportunity, he said. So he said he was very happy yesterday. And he came and he praised very highly of Srila Prabhupada and spoke many nice things. And he even had the bead, neck bead. He said he got that bead in the United States. Friend of his gave him. And he always worshiped Jagannatha, Balarama and Subhadra. He had pictures.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarūpa Damodara: And he was telling me that when he was doing some experiments in agriculture, he always, when he had difficulty in doing the experiment, he would pray, and he said the next day it will be all right. [laughter] And, and he is very Krsna conscious.

Prabhupada: So he has become devotee.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. So I requested him to do some experiments. I am going to supply him all the details to do the experiment.

Prabhupada: Let him join this paper...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, and I, I told him that...

Prabhupada: ...Sa-vijnanam.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...we will publish it, and...

Prabhupada: You recruit all big, big scientists to write articles in our paper.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That will be very nice.

Gopala Krsna: There's good chance to recruit people, scientists, in India, because a lot of scientists are very religious.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. India, anyone who is born in India, he is naturally Krsna conscious. Simply he has..., he has been misled by the so-called scientists. Otherwise everyone is God conscious. That is the special prerogative to take birth in India. Even the third-class, fourth-class man, he is God conscious. Just see, in Vrndavana one day in the morning walk I entered one farmer's land. It was vacant; we were walking. So the proprietor with his man immediately came out, began to thank me: "Sir, it is our great fortune, sir, you have come to my land." Aiye, baithiye. So I immediately compared that "This is India. Had it been in USA, I am a trespasser."

Gopala Krsna: Mmm-hmm. Come out with a gun.

Prabhupada: That is the difference. He felt obliged that I have gone through to his land; it has become purified. And in the West, "Oh, you are trespasser. I shall kill you!"

Svarūpa Damodara: "This is a private property."

Prabhupada: I could immediately understand, still Indian, they will... They do not know how to honor a spiritual person. In the villages still, if a sannyasi goes, he may sit down underneath a tree, but all the villagers they will come and invite him, "Please come to my home. Take your prasadam."

[break] …they are exploiting, and the scientists, that somewhere, what is that?

Gopala Krsna: Poona.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: Bhagavan Rajneesh.

Prabhupada: So people have lost their faith, naturally.

Svarūpa Damodara: We would also like to make an experiment in India. So I was discussing with Gopala Krsna Prabhu yesterday about giving some lectures in, in the universities. There is one, one scientist in Bhabha Atomic Research Institute in Bombay. He is a member of this International Society for the Study of Origin of Life From Chemicals. He is an active member in the editorial board, and we wanted to give a lecture in that, uh...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Arrange lecture.

Gopala Krsna: Yes, I invited him. And also I just remembered, one of the leading scientists at Bhabha Research Institute, he has taken all of Prabhupada's books.

Svarūpa Damodara: Ah.

Gopala Krsna: I read in the papers about two months ago the Congress president gave a lecture. He was criticizing scientists for having so much faith in religion. So the point is that even leading Indian scientists, they are openly expressing their faith in religion and God, and the government...

Prabhupada: Discouraging.

Gopala Krsna: Yes, they are dis..., discouraging.

Prabhupada: Dangerous government. It is the duty of the government to make people God conscious. Instead they are making: forget God.

Gopala Krsna: Actually, in Bombay and Delhi it's all the Indian cultural activities.

Prabhupada: Hmm. So you make it a point: six months outside, six months here. And all your expenditure will be spent by the society, that there is no question of spending money. We spend money like anything.

Gopala Krsna: If you approve, BBT India can pay for his travels in India.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, everything. We shall beg and pay, if there is no income.

Gopala Krsna: Hmm.

Prabhupada: But they must be allowed to go from place to place. That is the real..., real business.

Gopala Krsna: Hmm.

Prabhupada: Payment will come. Krsna will pay.

Gopala Krsna: In India, BBT can pay.

Prabhupada: That BBT will pay, that is Krsna has given us this chance. We are selling our books unexpectedly; therefore we shall have never scarcity of money. Never. Either in India or abroad. Whatever you are doing by selling these books, that this is a great opportunity. We are not existing like others, by..., simply by the contribution of others. Now Krsna has given us a chance, an exchange.

Gopala Krsna: This is a very good idea, if he spends six months in India meetings.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: He can attract…

Prabhupada: Recruit friends to make your party strong.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. We need.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: We need many.

Gopala Krsna: Like in India you have a better chance of getting...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: ...find some friends.

Prabhupada: In India you will have better chance, yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: That immediately when I go tomorrow to, uh, today to Calcutta or to make an appointment in Bose Institute to speak...

Prabhupada: Yes, Bose Institute, very...

Svarūpa Damodara: They have a good biology, life sciences department.

Prabhupada: Bose was a devotee.

Svarūpa Damodara: Ahh.

Prabhupada: He believed strongly in God. Jagadish Chandra... I have seen him, in my childhood.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, that's, that's next to our, the Calcutta University of Science where I studied. So I have my professor there, in there.

Prabhupada: Oh. Bose's...

Svarūpa Damodara: It is next...

Prabhupada: Not Calcutta University?

Svarūpa Damodara: No.

Prabhupada: Then?

Svarūpa Damodara: Just next to. It is next to, let's say...

Prabhupada: Science Institute.

Svarūpa Damodara: Ninety-two... It's called Science College.

Prabhupada: Science College.

Svarūpa Damodara: That's 92 Upper Circle Road.

Prabhupada: Yes, Science College. University is the College Street...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, University is College Street.

Prabhupada: But that is a department of University, Science College. And next to that...

Svarūpa Damodara: Bose Institute.

Prabhupada: Sir P. C. Roy was in charge of the chemical department, and Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. This, perhaps you know it, this wireless system was discovered by Bose.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Bose.

Gopala Krsna: Wireless system?

Prabhupada: Yes, radio.

Gopala Krsna: But somebody else stole the secret, or...?

Prabhupada: Yes, the Marconi, he took the credit.

Gopala Krsna: Oh.

Prabhupada: And the British government...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: ...that they did not want to give the credit to Bose. This is the history. And Bose said; I remember in the public meeting.

Svarūpa Damodara: Even his some..., some of his experiments, those plant experiments, on plant, that by Bose, it's printed in, uh...

Prabhupada: He took up them, this plant life. After being cheated by Marconi, he took this plant life. He strongly believed, and he proved it, by machine, by scientifically. He was very respectable family…

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, he wrote a lot in...

Prabhupada: Oh, he was very extraordinarily intelligent scientist. I saw him.

Palika: [in background] Breakfast this morning?

Prabhupada: At end. Chipped rice and..., like that. Oh, he was a great man, undoubtedly India's... Very, very greater than Sir P. C. Roy. Sir P. C. Roy was ordinary chemist, but, but here, here is a gigantic intelligence, Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, I... When I studied, uh...

Prabhupada: [aside:] Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: ...uhh...

Prabhupada: [aside:] It doesn't matter.

Svarūpa Damodara: When I was studying my Masters in Science College, there was another professor, he was, he was very good. His name is Guha, yes, B.C. Guha.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: He said he was just about to get Nobel Prize on vitamin C, but somebody got it. He studied in England, and he was the head of a department in this Applied Chemistry and Science College, and he was, he was very philosophic in his way of teaching...

Prabhupada: Bose was also philosopher, combined scientist.

Svarūpa Damodara: And he was always telling me that... Because he liked me, somehow, because I come from Manipur, and I was the only Manipuri…

Prabhupada: Now, Manipur, make a very enlightened country. I have got very good respect for your country, because Arjuna is there, Arjuna's son. They will make an ideal country, Indian culture. I wanted to go only for this reason, that you take it very seriously. Make it a center of scientific Vaisnava culture.

Gopala Krsna: In Manipur?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is my aim. Otherwise I would have not gone. But I want to establish this ksatriya, give protection to the scientific Vaisnava culture. Make a... I will give ideas how to do it. Simply you have to agree to do that, then I will give you idea how to do it.

Svarūpa Damodara: That means I have to spend part of...

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: Part in Manipur, part in the Institute?

Prabhupada: Why not?

Svarūpa Damodara: In Washington?

Prabhupada: Why not? We want a stronghold of this culture, and I think it will be possible in Manipur. Daiva-varnasrama make. There must be first-class brahmanas, first-class ksatriyas, first-class vaisyas and first-class sūdras also. Never mind. Ideal. The whole world will see that here is real culture, Vedic culture. People are inclined, because I could understand this when the Governor of Punjab, as Governor, with his troop, he came to see me. He came to see me in Vrndavana, and he came to see me in Chandigarh. And because he has got Vaisnava spirit, in spite of his becoming Governor-I am ordinary man-he came to see me in official, officially, with his aide de camp, with his original car…

Devotee: Chowdhury?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: In Chandigarh.

Gopala Krsna: Chowdhury.

Devotee: Oh.

Prabhupada: Chowdhury, yes. That's right. So I could understand that Manipur has got great potency of bhakti-marg. They are born Babhruvahana; you descendent of Babhruvahana, Arjuna's son. So let there be at least one country, ideal brahmana, ideal ksatriya. You people are submissive to Krsna consciousness. I have seen in Vrndavana and Navadvipa, and many, many Manipuris.

Svarūpa Damodara: I also saw in Jagannatha Puri. I went day before yesterday...

Prabhupada: Accha!

Svarūpa Damodara: ...and the panḍas were telling me that... In the beginning I said they can..., I cannot go inside the temple. That I, that I told them that I am from Manipur, and immediately they send me to the... We have the Manipuri house there. That's on the west gate of the temple. So we had two, and they immediately took me and the..., inside the temple and prasadam, Jagannatha prasadam, and that's very nice.

Prabhupada: Nice.

Svarūpa Damodara: And then we have this rasamalai.

Prabhupada: That there, Jagannatha temple, they are now against ISKCON. As soon as they say the member of ISKCON...

Svarūpa Damodara: I have just said I am ISKCON, so a little hesitant, the beginning, that... Then immediately I said I, I am also from Manipur. So then we had this Manipuri house, big house, and they just put a temple inside, and I stayed there for about an hour or so, and I had a long talk with the..., this, the man he's...

Prabhupada: Very nice house?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, it's nice, and it's being constructed also. They are going to make it bigger for guests and for others to come and stay. And this man, he was eighty-one years old, just like Srila Prabhupada. He's from Manipur. He was a medical doctor before. And I didn't know him. I heard his name in Manipur, because he had established many schools in his name, and his name is Ibotonsana. And then we started talking about Prabhupada, said that he has heard about this Vaisnavism in the United States, and so he was very interested to hear about Srila Prabhupada. And I told him about Srila Prabhupada, that started about ten years ago, and it's all over the world now by Srila Prabhupada's mercy. And he was very interested in hearing more, and he wanted to hear more. He asked me to stay longer, but...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...couldn't stay.

Prabhupada: Then see how much interested these Manipuris. So with the cooperation of Manipuris we can make a strong hold. How is the climate now there?

Svarūpa Damodara: Climate is quite pleasant, though in the winter it's a little cold.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: But otherwise it is mild throughout the year.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarūpa Damodara: It is, in summer it is..., we're never hot, like Calcutta or Bombay. It's always mild. But in winter it's a little cold, just like, just like California in some, in some parts, in California.

Prabhupada: What is the staple food there? Rice?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. Rice and fruits. We have this...

Prabhupada: Good water?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. Mostly.

Prabhupada: In Assam they say there is that fever. What is that? Black fever?

Svarūpa Damodara: No. We don't have any fever.

Prabhupada: In Manipur they don't.

Svarūpa Damodara: It's..., actually it's a very healthy, healthy place...

Prabhupada: Atmosphere.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...because of hills. And specially during the pineapple season that's in..., starts in June...

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...and these, the hill, the hillsides, all covered with pineapples. We can see from, from the plane. It's all...

Prabhupada: What other fruits grow?

Svarūpa Damodara: Pineapples, oranges and jackfruits, and many other, like mangoes.

Prabhupada: Coconut? Coconut? No?

Svarūpa Damodara: We do not grow coconut.

Prabhupada: Other fruits, the..., is... Jackfruit is there?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, plenty of jackfruits, and different varieties of oranges.

Prabhupada: All the year jackfruit? No.

Svarūpa Damodara: No, not all the year. Jackfruit is there, special season is there...

Prabhupada: In the summer.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...during Janmastami.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarūpa Damodara: Janmastami we have to buy some jackfruit.

Prabhupada: Mango also.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. Plenty of mangoes. And all the apples are coming from outside.

Prabhupada: Rice? Good quality rice?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, we have rice. We have this black rice also.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, you have seen this black rice?

Prabhupada: Black rice? What it is?

Svarūpa Damodara: Black. It's completely black.

Prabhupada: Black rice?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah. And it is..., it has a natural flavor, and it is..., it is a must for, especially a religious ceremony.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: It is, it is very good with milk.

Prabhupada: Oh. Paramannam.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah. And... [laughs]

Prabhupada: The milk is also available?

Svarūpa Damodara: Oh, yes. It has its own flavor, very nice flavor.

Prabhupada: Flavor..., flavor means very good rice. Basmati. So every..., by God's creation everything is nice, but these rascals they have made everything bad, these so-called scientists.

Svarūpa Damodara: In Manipur also I have, I have seen changing the situation. Now the younger generation, like I talked with quite a few, and they are somehow attracted to the Western thought.

Prabhupada: Everyone is attracted. Everyone is attracted.

Gopala Krsna: Even the communist countries are changing to the Western thought.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: Even in communist countries the youth is always after Western records, Western culture, Western dresses, Western movies. Like Russia and all these countries are more orthodox in many respects compared to America and Western Europe, but the younger generation, they always want to copy the new designs of clothes which come from Paris and America, in records, their habits.

Prabhupada: [aside:] So we shall go now? Do something now. This Krsna's business. Print books. Travel all over the world. Challenge them: "Come on! Come on rascal scientist." Even this Dr. Radhakrishnan, [laughing] he was also captivated by the scientists. He told in a meeting.

Svarūpa Damodara: Radhakrishnan?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: I have seen his Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: That was his business.

Gopala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Gopala Krsna: Previously, when Radhakrishnan's Gita appeared, they had a very simple cover. Now the publishers have come out with a new edition of the Radhakrishnan Gita, and they have copied your..., you. They have put a picture of Krsna and Arjuna on the cover.

Prabhupada: How is that?

Gopala Krsna: Beautiful picture. So it is...

Prabhupada: Because it is not selling now. [laughter]

Gopala Krsna: I have, but it is in many..., it is in almost every store. But they have copied your approach. They have put a very beautiful picture of Krsna and Arjuna on the cover.

Prabhupada: They have imitated my picture, my book, means they are not…

Gopala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...selling.

Gopala Krsna: Now they are trying to sell this way. But they are in many stores.

Prabhupada: But, that he is known.

Gopala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: People demand Radhakrishnan. He is a great scholar, but now the sale is reducing, therefore they are imitating.

Gopala Krsna: Their Gita sells for about ten or fifteen rup..., fifteen rupees I think, so our soft-bound Gita will compete with this Gita.

Devotee: For what do you sell it?

Gopala Krsna: Soft-bound they will sell in the stores for fifteen.

Svarūpa Damodara: This Gita, or this, this one?

Gopala Krsna: No, we've got a new one.

Svarūpa Damodara: Oh, another one.

Gopala Krsna: The abridged edition with...

Svarūpa Damodara: Oh, I see.

Gopala Krsna: ...plenty of color plates. Plus plastic covers, and presentation...

Prabhupada: He was a renowned scholar, so he has written; generally public goes to purchase.

Gopala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: As a scholar he is known all over the world.

Svarūpa Damodara: The last, last year at the University of Emery, this, the head of the Department of Religion, his name is Fenton...

Gopala Krsna: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...he has become a good friend of mine since I was there. So he was teaching Bhagavad-gita, but he was taking Radhakrishnan's...

Prabhupada: Yes...

Svarūpa Damodara: ...copy. But he, but he, he said to the students that there are many things which are not correct in that Radhakrishnan's...

Prabhupada: Everything is incorrect. [laughter] He did not know anything about Bhagavad-gita.

Gopala Krsna: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: But he has admitted that from Bhagavad-gita it is difficult to prove God is impersonal.

Gopala Krsna: Radhakrishnan?

Prabhupada: He has admitted. [break]

Gopala Krsna: ...they stress on that.

Prabhupada: Then they will have to decide what is the nature of it.

[break] [kirtana in background]

It doesn't matter. Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu [Bg 2.47]. Whether one is converted or not, but we must go on with our duties.

Svarūpa Damodara: Actually our... The other scientist and mathematician, once he remarked that so much is available just from the second chapter of Bhagavad-gita. So if we know at least few chapters, how..., how much knowledge that we can, uh...

Prabhupada: Gather.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. It's unlimited.

Prabhupada: Yes. Unlimited.

Svarūpa Damodara: Actually, we are just taking this nainam chindanti sastrani [Bg 2.23], non-physical, non-chemical, and we will, we will just corroborate that, that statement from all their modern scientific findings. And it seems that it's working.

Prabhupada: The Supreme Lord personally speaking.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Who can be more, greater authority? Now others may say whatever they like, but we know He is the greatest authority. So where is the mistake? [long pause]

Svarūpa Damodara: He gave a... We went together to the University of Florida, Gainesville. He gave a lecture in the Department of Physics. And the students and the professor saw when we are speaking, and he made a calculation that life cannot come, say, given so much time, and the calculation came about from ten to the one: one hundred and sixty-seven billion years.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: So the physics professor, right away when he saw the slide, he said, "That's completely fallacious, completely wrong." That's what, something like, he was saying like that. Then he immediately said, "Let's wait for a moment and see how these things come out." So we showed the step by step how the calculation is done, and how the theory that chance will produce life cannot be explained in terms of just pure mathematics. So we showed slowly, and finally he came to the point that he was wrong.

Prabhupada: That's the best ideas.

This is the real fruit of education. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam idam [SB 1.1.3]. Nigama. Science is also nigama.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: The ripened fruit is there, this point. [chanting japa softly]

Svarūpa Damodara: So he was... Actually we were joking that now they are accusing us that we are brainwashing; now when we go out we will, we will brainwash them [laughs]...

Prabhupada: It is...

Svarūpa Damodara: ...in science.

Prabhupada: ...for their good. Brainwashing for their good. [long pause] If... If Krsna was present, instead of brainwashing you would have brain cutting. Paunḍraka, Paunḍraka? That Paunḍraka, who represented as Narayana? Krsna just cut his head. Rascal Narayana. Not only washing, but cutting. Can you find out that picture?

Gopala Krsna: Paunḍraka?

Prabhupada: Paunḍraka is being killed by Krsna.

[chanting japa softly]

[break] …brahma-jna. Jnanam te 'ham sa-vijnanam pravaksyamy anasūyave [Bg 7.2]. There cannot be view.

Svarūpa Damodara: So we should avoid that word, "view"?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Absolute, everything absolute. We cannot entertain any view. And we have to prove that it is absolute. As soon as you say view, so many rascals will give his view, and you will be puzzled. No view.

[pause] [break] Brahman means the greatest. So how there can be view? Hmm? All, all imbecile.

Svarūpa Damodara: View, view means that according to them, according to science, according to modern science that they know about-according to their view. We are not saying that what their, their views are...

Prabhupada: But we say you do not know. Here is the real knowledge. That is speculation. So your view has no view, ahh, value.

Svarūpa Damodara: No basis.

Prabhupada: A child, if he says, "This is my view," will I have to take it? A madman, if he says, "This is my view," shall that be taken? Rejected. Why you are rejecting so many so-called leaders? Even in Gandhi's… But we say no. Useless.

Svarūpa Damodara: Everyone has his view.

Prabhupada: Yes. Every rascal will give his own view. We haven't got to accept it. That is going on. Modern world means "I think," "In my opinion," "In my view." This is going on. We don't accept this.

Svarūpa Damodara: Those are the words...

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: Those are very popular words...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...used by, usually in science, saying "my opinion," "my view."

Prabhupada: What you, first of all? You are a victim of the material laws. What is the value of your view? This is ahahkara.

One can give view when he thinks that "I am something," kartaham iti manyate. That is vimūḍhatma. He has no value. So we know what he is. He is being pulled by the ear, prakrti, nature: "Come here. Sit down." He has to sit down. His is such independent. And what is the value of his view?

He is acting under the laws of prakrti. And what is his view? A man is put into the jail for criminality, and if he wants to give us some view, so I'll have to accept it? You are already criminal-you are undergoing imprisonment-so what is his view?

Svarūpa Damodara: Nobody will accept.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Svarūpa Damodara: Nobody will accept.

Prabhupada: No, what is the value of that view? You have become criminal. You are being punished. And your view? So,

They... The living entity is within the conditional material existence, and he is forced to be conducted by the three modes of material nature. So what is the value of his view? No value. At least we, Krsna conscious, we shall not accept. That position we shall maintain: "No view, sir. Only view Krsna's view." That's all. "What you are, your view? We don't give you any value." Stick to this point, and try to maintain it, scientifically. Then it will be accepted. Don't agree to make any compromise.

So this is the principle. The supreme view we shall take. Why these rascals' view? We are getting knowledge from a person, nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. So why we shall accept other nonsense view?

[Transl. Tell me, am I right or wrong?]

Mr. Agarwal: [Transl. When will you come back here again?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What is the use of coming back? I have the same talk] for human being who has taken birth, it is duty, Para-upakara or to do good to others, these all rascals, the whole world. [Transl. Actually we have become] cats and dogs only, in the shape of human being. [Transl. Had we been human beings we would have left our homes ect and distribute this knowledge everywhere.] Bharata-bhūmite manusya-janma haila. [Transl. We are not even human beings! Had we been human beings we would have carefully understood this knowledge and preached it all over the world.] Janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara . [Transl. Simply puffed up. So Mr. Agarwal, what I am speaking is correct or not?]

Mr. Agarwal: [Transl. You are right.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. In the whole world, this Indian culture [indistinct] such persons, they say like that], but it is not correct.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, that's actually what we...

Prabhupada: That you reply[?].

[sound of airplanes]

Svarūpa Damodara: We are proving their..., their ideas in a..., proving that it's all wrong.

Prabhupada: That is good. Then sometimes scholars, they bring the view just to support his statement.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is not good. He can use so many things.

Svarūpa Damodara: We also use the word "the laws of nature."

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: "The laws of nature." Since science is already using "the laws of nature," we are also using "the laws of nature," but we say "higher laws of nature." There we bring Paramatma.

Prabhupada: The science, they do not know all the laws of nature.

Svarūpa Damodara: They don't know; they know very little.

Prabhupada: Yes. They know something, laws of nature, but they do not know fully. And yet they do not know who is the lawmaker. Laws of nature can be changed-by the lawmaker. Just like we practically see, the State. Today something is going on as the law, but tomorrow he can..., the State can change it.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that is God: who can change it. And who cannot change it, and is forced to be under the laws of..., he is the living being. That is the difference. Mama maya duratyaya. So mama, Krsna can change it. Otherwise how Krsna can say, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg 18.66]? Laws of nature is that if you have committed some sinful, you must suffer. So how Krsna can say? Yes, He can say, because He is the Supreme. Therefore laws are changed. I cannot change; one who can change: He is God. This is understanding of God. Nobody can change.

But, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam.

Svarūpa Damodara: It is... It is acceptable to them when we say the laws of nature.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarūpa Damodara: Here the higher, higher order laws of nature. Then, by saying that, then "What is that?" they ask. Then we introduce this Paramatma. Then it is..., it is thoroughly acceptable.

Prabhupada: Not Paramatma-atma and Paramatma. Atma is under the laws of nature...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...and Paramatma is above the laws of nature.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is the difference between them.

[break] …but he can't take wheat. [laughs]

Bhagavata: Did Guru Maharaja spend a long time in Puri? Did he spend much time in Jagannatha Puri?

Prabhupada: At the last stage.

Devotee (1): We saw one house there that they said was your Guru Maharaja's house. He stayed right near the Tota-gopinatha temple, just near the Gauḍiya Matha.

Prabhupada: Yes, somewhere near living there. [break]

Bhagavata: ...imitation.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the imitation, should be killed.

Bhagavata: Balarama, He also killed one who was speaking.

Prabhupada: Hmm, Romaharsana.

Bhagavata: Romaharsana.

Prabhupada: That is ksatriya's business. Anything imitation should be immediately finished.

Bhagavata: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is ksatriya. You have to do that. You are ksatriyas. Organize Manipur for this purpose. No imitation. This is ksatriya's business, to see that everything genuinely is presented. That is ksatriya. Brahmanas should be learned, to advise, instruct Vedic knowledge. Ksatriyas should give protection and finish all imitation. Vaisyas, they produce food grains and give protection to the cows. And sūdras, they will serve. That's all.

Gargamuni: Most...

Prabhupada: Mmm...

Gargamuni: ...most of these demons, though, I don't think will be convinced by our arguments. I think Manipur...

Prabhupada: Yes, we have to establish.

Gargamuni: Manipur is a place of ksatriyas. We can organize…

Prabhupada: Mmm, yes.

Gargamuni: ...some army.

Prabhupada: They..., they can do it. Are there civilized men, still?

Svarūpa Damodara: Huh?

Prabhupada: Manipur?

Gargamuni: The Gurkhas are there. Those Gurkhas, they're supposed to be the best fighters in the world, the Gurkhas. Even the Queen has...

Prabhupada: The Gurkhas, they are near Manipur? No.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Gurkhas are not Manipuri.

Gargamuni: Oh, no?

Svarūpa Damodara: No, they are...

Gargamuni: They come from the mountains? There's Indian Gurkhas too.

Prabhupada: No, Gurkha means Nepali.

Gargamuni: Oh.

Prabhupada: This is no Indian Gurkha. [laughter]

Gargamuni: There's, in.., in the Indian army there is. They have Gurkhas.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. They, they take service...

Gargamuni: Oh.

Prabhupada: ...in Indian army. Therefore Nepal is kept independent.

Gargamuni: Ohh.

Prabhupada: It was British policy, to get the Gurkha soldiers. British Empire was maintained, or expanded, by Gurkha and Sikh soldier.

Gargamuni: Ahh.

Prabhupada: It is not by the British soldiers. They expanded up to Burma, Ceylon, everything. Africa. Whatever empire they possessed. That is the triumph for Subhas Bose's INA. Britishers very intelligent. When they saw they did not go away for Gandhi's nonviolence, [laughs] they didn't care for this. Gandhi, he tried it for thirty years. They didn't care. They knew that "Let this rascal philosophize. We shall go on." But when they saw that the INA soldiers organized, and Indian, Sikh soldier, Gurkha soldier joining, they thought that this is no more possible. They voluntarily went away.

Bhagavata: That was always Subhas Chandra Bose's system. It was always his idea.

Prabhupada: He... It is folly, folly, that what is this nonsense violence, uh, nonviolent politician? He is such a bogus philosopher. [laughs]

Bhagavata: That's why...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Bhagavata: ...Gandhi had him removed from President of Congress. Subhas Chandra Bose...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavata: ...was president.

Prabhupada: Subhas Bose was always against his philosophy. And he was against his philosophy. [laughs] Therefore he thought that "So long this old man is there, I will not be able to do. Other friends will request me not to disturb him." So he left India, and organized the Singapore design[?]... [break] [end]