Room Conversation – December 30, 1972, Bombay

721230R1-BOMBAY [19:07 Minutes]

One nonsense is leading another nonsense

Prabhupada: First of all you should know that I am not this body. Just like I am not this apartment, similarly, I am not this body. So my body is changing according to my karma. Just like according to my capacity to pay rent, my apartment is changing. Not that because I have come to the first-class apartment, and it is guaranteed that I shall continue.

If I cannot pay rent, I cannot..., then I have to leave it, and I have to accept, what is called, hut, because I cannot pay more. So similarly, according to our karma we are getting different types of body. That Darwin theory cannot explain, because it is missing the real factor, as it is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that idam sariram ksetram [Bg 13.3]. And one who knows this ksetra is ksetrajna.

So, any question regarding this subject matter?

[break] Not that simply go on reading the Bhagavad-gita. Do not try to understand by analysis. Then we shall be benefited, if we want to study Bhagavad-gita. Not that I am giving my own interpretation and misleading all the people. No. That is not Bhagavad-gita. That is andha yathandhair upaniyamanas [SB 7.5.31].A blind man is leading other blind man. One nonsense is leading another nonsense. It has no meaning.

This is science. Bhagavat-tattva-jnana. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei 'guru' haya [Cc Madhya 8.128]. One who knows Krsna factually, he is guru. Not that anyone simply he has got some knowledge of A-B-C-D, he becomes a commentator on Bhagavad-gita. No. That will not help us. Any question? Attika[?] prabhu, no question? You have no question?

Indian lady: You explain very nicely, Swamiji.

Prabhupada: You have any question? No? All right. Accha. Thank you very much.

Devotee: All glories to… [break]

Prabhupada: Every Indian, especially he has mentioned,

In no other part of the world this knowledge is known. It is the duty of the Indians to understand everything perfectly and distribute this knowledge. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's order. They have no such books; neither they can explain. That..., that fool is driving and may come out, that's all. That is not explanation.

So it is the prerogative of India, because in India there are so many sages, saintly person, they have left their knowledge, and one can make his life perfect and distribute this knowledge. This is the duty of India. Bharata-bhūmite haila manusya-janma yara. Manusya. Not the cats and dogs. Manusya, means human being. But all human being, now at the present moment they are cats and dogs. They have no knowledge. And their leaders, simply cats and dogs. That is the position.

So any sensible man will take this philosophy of Krsna consciousness and try to assimilate and make his life perfect and distribute all over the world. That is wanted. That is the need of the present day.

Mr. B. M. Kamdar: Swamiji, with so many saints in India and [indistinct] so good, how did we come to this stage?

Prabhupada: First of all, you do not know who is saint. That is your difficulty. You say "so many saints," but there is no saint at all. Do you know what is saint? You say "so many saints," so what is the saint? What is your understanding of saint?

Mr. B. M. Kamdar: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No, if I say "so many rich men," so I must know who is rich man. If I say simply "so many" without knowing what is rich man, that is not perfect. Who is a saint, first of all?

Indian lady: They claim that they are saints.

Prabhupada: They claim... Everyone can claim, "I am saint." But you must know who is a saint. Everyone will claim that "I am rich man." But there must be a standard of rich man, who is rich man. At least we understand that one who has got a nice bungalow, nice car, a few servants, a nice bank balance, then you can say, "Yes, it is rich man." But if I do not know who is rich man, then what is the use of speaking "so many"? First of all you must know who is a saint. How you know it? Saint, the exact meaning of saint is sadhu. Sadhu. Is it not?

Indian lady: Yes.

Prabhupada: So in the Bhagavad-gita you will find who is a sadhu. Sadhu, Krsna explains that,

Who is mahatma?

Not that by stamping one becomes mahatma. First of all know who is mahatma, who is sadhu. Mahatma, in another place,

This is mahatma. These are the description of mahatma. If I say, people may be angry. If I say the politician is not a mahatma, then people will be angry. But see the standard definition of mahatma. Standard definition of mahatma, Krsna says,

You can stamp anyone as mahatma, but sa mahatma su-durlabhaḥ. That is mahatma. What is his business? Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti: "Krsna is everything," and he surrenders, he is mahatma. One who is constantly engaged in Krsna's service, he is sadhu. Sadhur eva sa mantavyaḥ.

So you must know first of all who is a sadhu; whether he's devoted to Krsna, devoted to God. But these rascals, so-called saints, say that "I am God." He's a rascal. He's not a sadhu. He's not saintly person; he is a demon. So we are accepting demons as mahatma and sadhu; therefore it has fallen down. Because we are accepting the rascals, demons as sadhu and mahatma, therefore you have fallen down. This is the reason.

We do not know who is mahatma and sadhu. Everyone is preaching, "Why you are finding out God? Why you are going to temple? The Gods are all loitering in the street, daridra-narayana." And you are accepting, "Oh, so nice sadhu." But you do not know. He is a demon, and you are accepting as sadhu. That is the cause of falldown.

Mahatma, sadhu, has been described, the supreme authority, Krsna:

Tusyanti ca ramanti ca [Bg 10.9]. Their only business is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Not that "Cut down the Supreme Lord, kill the Supreme Lord, and I become Supreme Lord," falsely, and cheat the innocent people. The cheaters we are accepting, that "Here is a god, here is mahatma, here is sadhu." Therefore it is falldown. Cheaters. Demons. Rascals. That is the cause of falldown.

Mahatma is he that, bhajanty ananya-manaso mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritaḥ [Bg 9.13]. He is under the control of daivi prakrti, not this material nature' spiritual nature. And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya-manaso: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. He is mahatma.

We are creating all mahatmas, not demons, rascals. That is our business, Krsna conciousness. As you are importing powdered milk from America, now you have to import all mahatmas from America. [laughter] It is a fact. Yes. Now there is no milk. So barrels and barrels of powdered milk is coming from America. Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Where is milk? All finished. I think three, four years ago, when I first went I had some correspondence with my friend. So I wrote this very word, that "Now India is finished this milk and so many things, they have to import from foreign countries. Now you have to import brahmanas and mahatmas from foreign countries." Because I tried to make this mahatma in this country, but still they are not prepared. They are not prepared. But these boys, these American, European boys, they are prepared. They order... They carry my orders as I say. They are habituated to so many bad habits; I said, "Give up," they give up.

So one must know, our Indian boys, they are not coming. They know that "We know Krsna, everything. Now let us learn technology." They are not even prepared to become mahatma. Otherwise, everyone can become mahatma. These are... How to become a mahatma? The knowledge is there, the system is there, but nobody is interested. Just like two young men came here, they saw, "Ah, what is this arati?" They went away.

There is no interest. They will go to cinema, to become cinema actor. That is the progress. And the so-called mahatmas and sadhus say, "Yes, you can do whatever you like. Yes." They have no courage to say that "You don't do this." Then he will lose all customer. Just see. He is a duratma, he wants some money: "You do whatever nonsense you like, you simply give me my money, that's all."

They are publicly preaching, "Yes, you can do anything. Oh, why not sense enjoyment? God has given you the senses, you enjoy." That Mahesh Yogi, he was speaking in this way: "Why the sense..., the senses should be controlled? You have got..., God has given you senses, you must enjoy." This is his philosophy. Vivekananda's philosophy: yata mata tata patha, "Whatever mata you have got, that's all right."

Mahatma Gandhi was approached, "Mahatmaji, why don't you ask the Muslims to stop this cow killing?" "No, how can I do? This is their religion." Now see. If you are nonviolent, if by..., in the name of religion somebody says, "It is my religion," how can you allow it? If you want to introduce nonviolence, religion or no religion, must stop it. Somebody will go on killing, that "My religion is to cut throat." "Yes, you can go on, yes, because it is your religion." What kind of mahatma? They are advertising..., the government is advertising nonviolence, and ten thousand or forty thousand cows are being killed. What is this nonviolence?

We are so misled, andha yathandair upaniyamana, and we are accepting these rascals and fools and rogues and demons as sadhus, mahatmas, leaders, and we are gone to hell. This is the fact.

Indian man (2): So what is the solution to it? How to know...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man (2): How for the average man to know that and not carried by it? The average man is just led to it.

Prabhupada: Yes, the average man is... Now we are preaching this cult, but why they are not coming? You have kindly come, but maybe tomorrow you may not come. They're not eager to understand. They want to be misled. They want to be cheated. That is their progression. They don't want the truth. Because if he wants the truth, then his life will be spoiled.

Indian lady: Restriction.

Prabhupada: Yes. He is living an untruth. The whole world is living on meat-eating, drinking, illicit sex and gambling. And we are restricting, "No, you cannot have illicit sex, you cannot have meat-eating, you cannot indulge in intoxication." So how many people will come? "Oh, Swamiji is very conservative," they say. "Swamiji is very conservative, primitive. We are now advanced. We must eat three plates of meat and two bottles of wine. That is advancement of civilization." What is this nonsense talking? Yes. Some of my students left, "Oh, Swamiji is not allowing even the primary necessities of life." That is the primary necessities of life. Rayarama left for this purpose.

So we cannot make any compromise. We don't make compromise. Therefore, although we are preaching all over the world, our principles are very strict. Anyone who comes seriously, "You cannot do this." Generally you can come and chant Hare Krsna mantra, that's all right.

But if you want to become my disciple, then you have to give up all these bad habits. One who agrees, then I accept him as disciple. If I would say, "Yes, you can do. God has given you senses; you go now, enjoy your senses and chant Hare Krsna," then I would have gotten millions and trillions. I don't allow that, such kind of nonsense.

All right. Thank you. Hare Krsna.

Guests: Hare Krsna. Jaya. [end]