Room Conversation – August 8, 1972, London

720808R1-LONDON [55:00 Minutes]

We require head and tail both

Prabhupada: Read our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. You will get so many ideas of preaching about Caitanya.

[break] …analysis of the social structure of human society. People do not know it, how to make this social structure. There must be brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra. Simply one class, sūdra class, laborer class, will not make perfect.

Guest: You can see it yourself. It's perfectly true.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: This country, at the moment my lord..., with everyone trying to be equal, it just doesn't work.

Prabhupada: No. How you can make it work? You require a head and tail also. We cannot make head and tail equal.

Guest: No.

Prabhupada: Simply head will not do, simply tail will not do. We require head and tail both. Then it will be beautiful. So it is actually, Krsna consciousness movement, is solution of all problems. Thinking, thoughtful men should come forward, study it, and try to introduce it in the human society. Otherwise, this piling of bricks and stones will not help.

Guest: There is so much wickedness in the world, my lord, I fear that if you try to force anything good, it will be rejected every time.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are suffering.

[pause] How long I spoke?

Syamasundara: Nearly one hour. About fifty minutes.

Guest: Fantastic.

Prabhupada: So practically there was no question that upstart boy only [laughing]. Made some question that had no value.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: And the reply was appropriate.

Syamasundara: Very. He said that he was hearing blasphemy and this and that, so he got what he deserved.

Prabhupada: Blasphemy?

Syamasundara: He said, yes, he said he had..., that he thought you were blaspheming God.

Prabhupada: Blasphemy, why?

Syamasundara: Who knows? According to the Christian point of view, he said.

Guest: I wonder what sort of Christian he was.

Devotee (1): No Christian.

Guest: No, this is it. That is the whole point, isn't it.

Devotee (1): Christian by name, and demon by activities.

Guest: Yeah. There's a..., there's two sects in London which fascinate me. I mean, one is called The Pillar of Fire Society, and nobody's ever been able to find out what they mean. And the other is the Limited...,

The Plymouth Brethren, and they're so... The Inner Circle of The Plymouth Brethren. You have to be born into this. This seems to be so stupid. They're so tight, so tight-reined on, on, on their thinking that, that man could have come from that type of thing.

Devotee (1): He didn't seem actually very intelligent. Just, just someone who likes to argue. Revatinandana Swami hit him with such an answer, he wasn't able to say anything. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Every district has got a town hall, in London.

Syamasundara: Yes, every small suburb or borough of London, they have a town hall. Actually, we could go from one town hall to the next.

Prabhupada: Here is one town hall.

Syamasundara: Holborn Town Hall. There's St. Pancras Town Hall, Camden Town Hall.

Devotee (2): All big like that?

Syamasundara: Yeah. All nice.

Guest: But quite recently most of the, of the boroughs, for instance, take Kensington...

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Guest: ...Kensington and Chelsea became one, so that you now have four town halls, in effect, within Kensington.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Guest: And the same is with Marylebone. We've got Marylebone, Paddington, Westminster, all part of the Westminster City Council. This was the last Labor government we had.

Prabhupada: This is Camden Town?

Syamasundara: This is Camden Town. We're right on the border. There is Holborn just across the street. And West..., no, Westminster over there across the street.

Guest: I had to take Dhananjaya to see that garden I pointed out to you all, on top of the roof. It's a beautiful garden, on the roof.

Syamasundara: Across the road from the...

Guest: Yes, from the, across the road from the Town Hall.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Guest: With waterfalls, there's a stream, bridge over it, ducks, dolls[?]...

Prabhupada: On the roof?

Guest: On the roof my Lord.

Prabhupada: [chuckles]

Guest: Dhananjaya refused to believe it, and so I had to take him up there to see if he approved of it for you to have a look at it.

Prabhupada: It is not sold?

Guest: Dhananjaya saw it.

Syamasundara: And now it's for sale...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: ...isn't it?

Guest: Yes, it is. Yes, but it's far too much.

Prabhupada: So why not go and see?

Syamasundara: Thirty million pounds. [laughter]

Devotee (2): It's a church?

Guest: No, no. It's a, opposite Derry & Toms department store. Very big one.

Syamasundara: A little bit out of our range. [pause]

Guest: What do you think of the idea of a central hall, my lord, ten million?

Prabhupada: Well, my admission is we must have the best house.

Guest: Well, that's the best one going...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: ...in London at the moment.

Prabhupada: But it is up to the members of the London temple to secure the money.

Syamasundara: That one is ten million pounds.

Prabhupada: Why ten million? Twenty million. Any. But we have to work for it. Too much ambition is not good.

Guest: Oh no.

Prabhupada: But must be a very nice temple. You try; Krsna will help. We have no power. But it is now necessary that we must change to a better place. That it is too much crowded, suffocating.

Guest: Sometimes I think the only place you can get to stand downstairs is..., is on people's heads. It's packed to capacity.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we will require immediately. [knock at door] Yes. [female voice in background] Come in.

Syamasundara: One thing is, I heard this place in Hammersmith will also be occupied for some time.

Guest: Well, no. It, it will depend on a purchase.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Guest: And then, uh, they'll have to move out. In the meantime, I don't think they themselves know...

Prabhupada: So...

Guest: ...if they're going to sell it.

Prabhupada: ...did you sell some book?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita?

Devotee (2): Many people are looking at the Bhagavad-gita this evening, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Devotee (2): Many, many. They like the pictures.

Prabhupada: There is no such Bhagavad-gita in the English language, or any language.

Devotee (2): I'm already arranging with the Collier-Macmillan that when Bhagavad-gita comes to England, there will be a big publicity drive...

Prabhupada: Oh.

Devotee (2): ...for the book, uh, reception of it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Are they going to print it here, or print it in the US and bring it on the boat?

Devotee (2): Bring it over on the boat.

Syamasundara: How many copies?

Devotee (2): Many, many. Actually, Collier-Macmillan, they will distribute them to the bookshops, and that will be very good for us.

Syamasundara: You do have to give them a little push.

Devotee (2): Yes, that's right.

Prabhupada: We have got our basic principle of Vedic knowledge, so there is no comparison with our edition with any other. Theirs, mental spec..., how long they will speculate?

[pause] [break]

Devotee (2): You looked very beautiful this evening.

Prabhupada: I looked?

Devotee (2): Yes. [laughter]

Guest: It's a beautiful setting.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: In there. It was a very nice hall, I think.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: We..., we should have our Bhagavata-saptaha in a nice hall like that. Then we could have... How much a night?

Devotee (2): This one twenty pounds.

Syamasundara: They provided [indistinct]. They provided all the sound equipment? [indistinct exchange] That's part of the twenty pounds? Twenty-four pounds extra?

Devotee (2): Four pounds.

Syamasundara: Four pounds extra. That hall was twenty pounds for one night, plus four pounds for the sound equipment. They provided everything.

Prabhupada: Makes a surplus[?].

Syamasundara: [indistinct]. [break]

Prabhupada: Then how the Bhagavata-saptaha?

Syamasundara: Well their ad..., their advertising was done mainly on the street, Oxford Street. They didn't approach the Hindi..., Hindu communities directly. Isn't that it?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Syamasundara: They handed out leaflets, but mostly to English pedestrians on Oxford Street.

Devotee (2): The next engagement will be mainly for Indians, next week.

Prabhupada: On the…

Devotee (2): Seventeenth.

Prabhupada: ...seventeenth.

Guest: That is the Commonwealth Institute.

Prabhupada: Now go and take rest. [break] ...this, that a man is dead, soul has gone out.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now after few hours millions of germs are coming out. They were not visible when the body was not dead. Now where they were?

Revatinandana: They were within the body.

Prabhupada: Yes. Similarly, in everything there is living entity.

Syamasundara: Yeah. But...

Prabhupada: They will be visible in due course of time.

Syamasundara: What, what he was telling me was that this table itself has a jiva soul, as if the table...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Syamasundara: ...is a person. Oh.

Revatinandana: So that's what I was asking when I said, "Does the table have a jiva soul?" I was trying to ask that question.

Syamasundara: That's what completely threw me off. I thought, oh...

Revatinandana: That, that threw us all.

Syamasundara: That means the table is a person, this is a person...

Prabhupada: A particular jiva soul was in that body. That it, it is also proof that every jiva soul is individual, although they are living combinedly. Everything is individual.

Revatinandana: Well that's..., that's all right then. Now if the...

Prabhupada: But that one jiva soul was prominent. We..., he was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, that small shining particles combine together.

Revatinandana: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Molecules. So everything is the combined spirit particles.

Hamsadūta: Everything that we see around us. Everything.

Prabhupada: Everything. Sarvam khalv idam brahma [Chandogya Upanisad 3.14.1]. Everything is Brahman. But when that covered, that is called material.

Syamasundara: Each, each jiva is...

Prabhupada: That the sunshine is now covered is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, that is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Revatinandana: Is that covering...

Prabhupada: That covering also created of the sunshine, by the same energy.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: But that by the same energy it is disappeared, uncovered.

Syamasundara: How, how is...

Prabhupada: So, the conclusion is, living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material.

Revatinandana: But this, the, the body itself...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: ...is sort of a, then is a manifestation of ignorance.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: And the...

Prabhupada: When this...

Revatinandana: ...then when we see this...

Prabhupada: ...when the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body.

Revatinandana: Yeah. And then, and then I know that I am not this body.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Revatinandana: Then I know that I am not this body. The question is...

Prabhupada: Then I am not ignorance.

Revatinandana: Then there is some distinction between the nature of the soul...

Prabhupada: Then...

Revatinandana: ...and the nature of the body.

Prabhupada: ...that, that distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya.

Revatinandana: The distinction between the soul and the body?

Prabhupada: Yes. Everything which distinguish matter and spirit.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya-bhedabheda-tattva: inconceivable one and different, simultaneously.

Syamasundara: When you..., when you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a small living entity, or is a living entity with a small body, that each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Takes a small body made out of matter.

Prabhupada: That, that body means ignorant.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: Sarira avidya-jal. This body is nothing but a network of ignorance.

Syamasundara: So then myself, I organize all of these smaller cells, I organize them into my big body?

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. So try to understand. Covered by something.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: The same example, that the sunshine is there; it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally the sunshine is everything.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: Is it clear?

Syamasundara: So how do..., how do, how do I create the matter...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: ...that is my body? How do I create the...

Prabhupada: You are, you are, you are creating. You are creating actually.

Syamasundara: By eating and...?

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair, it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growing. I am growing. I am creating. They do not know. That is ignorance.

Revatinandana: Sometimes people ask us... Then they ask us...

Prabhupada: These questions are not to be discussed in public.

Revatinandana: Yeah, I know, but then just like somebody...

Prabhupada: These are very higher understanding.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: For public should be, "This is matter; this is spirit." That's all.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Revatinandana: That's right. But one, one of the devotees asked me one time why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernail continues to grow.

Prabhupada: It is nonsense. Never grows.

Revatinandana: Huh? They display like that. They have observed.

Prabhupada: It decomposes.

Revatinandana: But they say the hair continues to come out sometimes from the dead bodies.

Prabhupada: Sometimes...

Syamasundara: You, I think you said once, in answer to that, that sometimes the fan turns a...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ...little bit after the plug's pulled.

Revatinandana: Yeah, it's a mechanism, bodily mechanism is [indistinct]. That's what I said. That some mech..., material mechanism is still functioning, like a machine.

Prabhupada: It has stopped, but maybe, just like the fan is stopped, but is still moving. Like that.

Revatinandana: Then..., so that among the different manifestations of energies, it'd be oneness that they are all Krsna's energies, but there is also diversities...

Prabhupada: Therefore we say acintya-bhedabheda.

Revatinandana: Yeah.

Prabhupada: You cannot clearly distinct. Bheda. It is one and different, at the same time.

Revatinandana: I have been under...

Prabhupada: It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that.

Syamasundara: Some, somehow or other we create our own ignorance, even...

Prabhupada: Everything is like that. Everything spirit, but at the same time not spirit. Just like Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, mat-sthani sarva-bhūtani [Bg 9.4], "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that? Everything is in Krsna, so how Krsna is not there? He said that.

Revatinandana: Yeah. You said because you can't see Him there.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Krsna. That is matter.

Syamasundara: That just..., just I want to clear this up. Just like this table is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one...

Prabhupada: Atom, millions of atom.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: But Krsna says, "I am within the matter." So how you can say Krsna is not there?

Syamasundara: Right.

Revatinandana: Now you were also telling me that Krsna is in the atom as a jiva expansion...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: ...not as plenary expansion.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion.

Prabhupada: A plenary expansion that is also, jiva is also plenary expansion.

Revatinandana: Plenary?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: I thought plenary means full expansion?

Prabhupada: Not plenary, that, that is also expansion. It is called vibhinnamsa.

Revatinandana: Yeah. And then...

Prabhupada: Svamsa, vibhinnamsa. Visnu-tattva is svamsa. And vibhinnamsa, both of them are part and parcel.

Revatinandana: That's right.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: Plenary means full portion.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: So the svamsa is plenary.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: And vibhinnamsa is part of plenary.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: So the presence of Krsna in the atom is as vibhinnamsa.

Prabhupada: No, both of them there.

Revatinandana: Both of them?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: In the atom?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: Krsna is not alone. That, that...

Prabhupada: When, whenever that Krsna is there the everything must be there. [laughter]

Hamsadūta: Then in, in the Brahma-samhita it says that He's present in every atom in His complete fullness.

Prabhupada: That they..., this brain will not accommodate.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: But as soon as the king is there, you must know the king is with his minister, secretaries, everything. How you can say the king is alone there?

Revatinandana: You said also in the heart Krsna is not alone. Every...

Prabhupada: Krsna is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuntha paraphernalia. That is acintya.

Syamasundara: But this, this body of a table, there is not, it's not an individual personality, is it?

Prabhupada: No.

Syamasundara: It's not one jiva soul that..., in charge of this table?

Revatinandana: The table itself is not a person...

Prabhupada: No, not...

Revatinandana: ...but within there are many persons.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: Living entities, germs, like that, are in there.

Prabhupada: God is also there.

Revatinandana: And Krsna's there.

Prabhupada: Krsna is also.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Everything is there.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: But actually it is Krsna.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: But we cannot see.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: Idam hi visvam..., idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetaraḥ [SB 1.5.20]. The whole cosmic manifestation is Krsna, but it appears is different from Krsna. Idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetaraḥ. This is acintya bhedabheda. So unless we accept the thesis and philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different... Incon…, for us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable. Acintya. But from theoretical, or by logical conclusion, everything is one, Krsna. That's all.

Revatinandana: There's... I'd read...

Prabhupada: Another, another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair. I am, I am the hair...

Revatinandana: Yeah.

Prabhupada: ...but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like.

Revatinandana: Mmm.

Prabhupada: This is called acintya bhedabheda, inconceivable.

Revatinandana: So that..., there's a related thing, question, also there's..., just like there is at, at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction then between these...

Prabhupada: That distinction you cannot make clear.

Revatinandana: I, I know, but, but still it, not clear, but clearly there is some distinction. Where the distinction is...

Prabhupada: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction.

Revatinandana: Yes. Simultaneously.

Prabhupada: Simultaneously.

Revatinandana: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Now, which one we..., which one accept? Therefore inconceivable.

Syamasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: That's right.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: They're both..., everything is related, in Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: But there's also, amongst the related things, they are related things because there is also diversity amongst them.

Prabhupada: Hmm. There must be.

Revatinandana: That's right. Now, that is, in preaching in the movement that there is no diversity between the jiva souls who are living entities...

Prabhupada: That there is diversity why not.

Revatinandana: ...and the brahma-jyoti. They are saying...

Prabhupada: Brahmajyoti is combination of jiva soul, and brahma-jyoti is emanation from Krsna.

Revatinandana: There is...

Prabhupada: Brahmajyoti is coming from Krsna.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: This is the point. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire...

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...but still, heat is not fire.

Revatinandana: So that...

Prabhupada: You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away.

Revatinandana: That's right. So the, the, the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahma-jyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jivatmas that are forming the living entities?

Prabhupada: Yes. Is comparison a small spiritual spark, that's all. We are spark.

Revatinandana: Am I...

Prabhupada: So long he does not develop a body...

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...that body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Prabhupada: He wants to enjoy.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: So, so long he is forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter.

Syamasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?

Prabhupada: Yes. No. That he is spirit, spiritual identity, already.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: But as you are developing material body, similarly, you can develop spiritual body.

Revatinandana: You know you.., you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the, the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyoti, he is considered still fallen...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: ...still fallen. That means the whole brahma-jyoti is composed of fallen souls. You see my question? If, if I go there, I am a jiva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyoti, I am still fallen.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: That means all jiva souls there are also fallen souls. That follows?

Prabhupada: Now, that, that is explained in, in the Bhagavad-gita. Vibhinnamsa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnamsa. You can call it fallen.

Revatinandana: But we usually...

Syamasundara: [indistinct] be separated?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Revatinandana: ...think of fallen as being forgetful.

Prabhupada: Yes, this is also forgetful. That if you are in the brahma-jyoti you are forgetful, still.

Revatinandana: But it, it...

Prabhupada: Because, because that, because you are fallen, it is stated in the sastra, anadrta-yusmad-ahghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Anadrta. That they, they, they do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Krsna. That is forgetfulness.

Revatinandana: Yeah.

Syamasundara: Hmm. So did they become separated?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: Now when, when he...

Hamsadūta: And that, Srila Prabhupada, that when, in the spiritual world everything is composed of cintamani, cin..., cintamani...

Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is spiritual.

Hamsadūta: ...so, just like here everything is composed of atoms.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hamsadūta: So, so suppose someone develops their spiritual form in the spiritual sky, that form, I mean that cintamani, they are living entities also? Are they...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Hamsadūta: ...conscious entities or, or is that an expansion of the jiva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy, with Krsna, is that an, an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency, or the...

Prabhupada: That you consider.

Hamsadūta: Huh?

Prabhupada: That we imagine.

Hamsadūta: I, I, I don't... That's what I'm asking for. Or is it, or, but like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form.

Prabhupada: In one sense it is like..., it is like that, that spiritual molecules.

Hamsadūta: Ohhh.

Prabhupada: Here also spiritual molecules, but here it is called material, because there is no sense of Krsna.

Hamsadūta: Forgetful.

Syamasundara: They, they are covered by ignorance.

Revatinandana: Now the cowherd boy with Krsna, he is also vibhinnamsa expansion...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: ...correct?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: But he is remembering.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Revatinandana: He is remembering; therefore he is...

Prabhupada: He may not remember.

Revatinandana: Well, he is with Krsna, he loves Krsna, therefore he is...

Prabhupada: Just like a, when they, when cowherd boys playing, that they did not know Krsna is God. They did not know. They did not care to know.

Revatinandana: Yeah. But they love Krsna.

Prabhupada: The love is there.

Revatinandana: So we will not say they are then...

Prabhupada: So when the love is there, that is spiritual.

Revatinandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: That is not fallen.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: They're not separated in any way.

Revatinandana: So...

Prabhupada: That, that should be..., you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world they do not know that Krsna is God.

Revatinandana: The, the thing that was bothering me, when I thought of this, that the brahma-jyoti, if it is jivas, that they, they are all fallen souls, and I thought so many...

Prabhupada: Fallen anywhere when Krsna is forgotten. That is fallen.

Revatinandana: Yes. But what I thought was then that just like in the room there's so many particles of light, already inconceivable, and then the whole brahma-jyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable it was making my head spin.

Prabhupada: Not so fallen as they are in the matter.

Syamasundara: Yeah. Separated. Separated.

Revatinandana: But not in their constitutional position.

Prabhupada: But not as fallen as those who are in this material.

Revatinandana: That's right, but still if they go there, they'll sometimes...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: ...come back...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: ...here again.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now, now, they are not pure.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Revatinandana: That's right.

Prabhupada: They are not pure.

Devotee: Oh.

Prabhupada: That is stated in the Bhagavata: avisuddha-buddhaya. Avisuddha. Avisuddha means not purified.

Revatinandana: Are they, are they less fallen because they are doing...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: ...some service?

Prabhupada: Whether, it is clearly stated...

Revatinandana: By lighting it up?

Prabhupada: Avisuddha-buddhaya. Avisuddha. Buddhi means intelligence. Avisuddha means unclean, contaminated, still con...

Revatinandana: Unclean intelligence, yes. So they're realizing...

Prabhupada: That they, they, they think that they have become liberated, but sastra says no, it is not yet liberated. Avisuddha-buddhaya. Still there is contamination.

Revatinandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. That there they also, to some extent, they are also fallen. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then you see...

Prabhupada: Ananta.

Revatinandana: ...most souls...

Prabhupada: You can..., you cannot, you cannot say how many. Ananta. Saḥ anantaya kalpana. Ananta means unlimited number. You, you... There is no question of counting.

Syamasundara: Our brain is so tiny.

Revatinandana: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Therefore is acintya.

Revatinandana: Krsna's so great.

Prabhupada: Therefore is acintya, inconceivable. [pause] Chant Hare Krsna.

Revatinandana: Jaya.

Prabhupada: Don't try to understand Krsna. Simply try to love Him. That is, that is perfection. That's all. You, you can not understand Krsna. Nobody can understand. Krsna Himself cannot understand. Yes. [laughter] He is so... [laughing] And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Krsna, how to serve Krsna.

Revatinandana: Jaya.

Prabhupada: That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Krsna. Nobody can. Krsna Himself cannot understand.

Syamasundara: So what to speak of us.

Revatinandana: But the more we understand, the more we can convince...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Revatinandana: ...others.

Prabhupada: No. That better you understand this, that you cannot understand.

Hamsadūta: The more we understand...

Prabhupada: This understanding is better.

Revatinandana: No, but why I said this is that, that...

Syamasundara: [laughing] Hare Krsna.

Revatinandana: ...that, that, don't, don't...

Prabhupada: That I cannot understand. [laughing] This understanding.

Hamsadūta: Then you have to give up, and then just simply...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hamsadūta: ...love Krsna.

Prabhupada: This is real understanding, that Krsna cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can. Whatever is my..., my capacity. And that is perfection.

Revatinandana: Yes. But still we deal with this philosophy for...

Prabhupada: Yes, on the whole, as Krsna says we can understand, then, that's all. You cannot understand Krsna fully. It is not possible.

Revatinandana: But in this life, just like this book, this is for convincing people.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Revatinandana: This book is for convincing men to understand...

Prabhupada: Now, still, we understand better than them.

Revatinandana: Yes, that's it.

Prabhupada: Krsna is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: Rather, Krsna is so big, that is understandable even by us, and what to, about these here rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position, that "We are constantly serving Krsna; we cannot understand Him, and what, rascal, you can understand?" [laughter] The attitude should be taken like that.

Hamsadūta: We just accept whatever Krsna says.

Prabhupada: That's it.

Hamsadūta: That's a fact and that's all, and, and we serve Krsna. In the material sense people try to understand a thing without..., by, by inspecting it.

Prabhupada: Without knowing his capacity.

Hamsadūta: Yeah.

Prabhupada: He has no capacity, still he wants and, and when, and when he is caught, that you have no capacity, "No, I am trying, I am trying."

Hamsadūta: Yeah.

Prabhupada: He won't say that "I have no capacity."

Syamasundara: [laughing] Or "I will understand."

Prabhupada: "I will understand," that he will say.

Syamasundara: "In the future, someday I will."

Prabhupada: Obstinacy.

Revatinandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible, and then when we don't understand...

Prabhupada: As soon as...

Revatinandana: ...and then when we don't understand, that's...

Prabhupada: As far as we know from sadhu, guru, sastra.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: That's all. That is our understanding.

Syamasundara: Yeah. Can't extend it any further...

Prabhupada: No.

Syamasundara: ...on our own.

Prabhupada: Don't try to extend on it.

Revatinandana: No.

Devotee: Yes. Like that business...

Revatinandana: That was speculation.

Syamasundara: ...about the soul and the table. It just completely changed everything we've learned so far.

Prabhupada: Therefore Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru, that is my life, that's all. Let me execute that."

Revatinandana: That was..., that was semantics. That was, that was word usage. That's why we got confused. And that's... So now I can clear up the confusion. Thank you very much. All glories to you, Srila Prabhupada.

Hamsadūta: Uhh, I have one more question, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: [aside] On the light.

Hamsadūta: There are in, in our world here, there are material scientists, and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance...

Prabhupada: Their way and our way is completely different.

Hamsadūta: I know, but I mean there must be, suppose on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things and...

Prabhupada: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahma. Even Brahma. Brahma has admitted, in his prayer, that people..., "Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part I say I have never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion?

Hamsadūta: Yes.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: So even Brahma cannot understand, why..., what we? He said the other rascals may say... Uh? Where is that Brahma prayer? In the first part? Find out.

Syamasundara: Brahma-samhita.

Hamsadūta: No, that's in the, uh, "Process of Creation," isn't it?

Prabhupada: No, no. In Krsna book.

Revatinandana: Krsna One.

Prabhupada: Now, where is that?

Syamasundara: Right here.

Prabhupada: This is second part. I see always that volume.

Syamasundara: Second part? There, there's..., Volume Two is there.

Prabhupada: No. Volume Two, yes.

Syamasundara: It's here.

Prabhupada: That is Volume Two. That... No, no, it is not in Volume Two.

Revatinandana: No, it's in Volume One.

Hamsadūta: In Volume One.

Revatinandana: Volume One, in..., at, when Brahma kidnaps the cowherd boys.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Revatinandana: There was... When I went to Paris they had gotten all confused. Some were thinking that Brahma, Lord Brahma, is not a pure devotee, because...

Prabhupada: In one sense not, he is not pure devotee.

Revatinandana: Well, by his behavior sometimes...

Prabhupada: Not that behavior [indistinct]. Because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire.

Hamsadūta: But, but is he still, Prabhupada...?

Revatinandana: Isn't he pure? That, that he said...

Hamsadūta: But at the same time he appeared as Thakura Haridasa in this world. So Brahma, as he appears as Thakura Haridasa with Caitanya Mahaprabhu...

Prabhupada: But Brahma, it does not mean Brahma cannot be pure devotee.

Revatinandana: Yeah. Does he become a pure devotee?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: Otherwise, how he can see Krsna and reveal Brahma-samhita?

Syamasundara: Someone's bringing...

Revatinandana: That's what I said.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: Someone is bringing one. A first volume.

Revatinandana: Also, he's the head of our disciplic succession, and I couldn't figure out, that's why I said, "No, he's a pure devotee. How can he be the head of our disciplic succession, he's not a pure devotee?"

Prabhupada: [indistinct]

Syamasundara: Bon Maharaja.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Syamasundara: And Bhavananda's letter.

Prabhupada: [indistinct]

Syamasundara: This big one, from Bhavananda's.

Prabhupada: Oh, open it. Where is that gone? Where has taken it?

Syamasundara: Where? What?

Prabhupada: That knife.

Syamasundara: There it is.

Prabhupada: Open that Brahma's prayer.

Syamasundara: [opening letter] Bhavananda special. [laughing]

Revatinandana: Chitpur...

Prabhupada: [announcing] Calcutta First Annual Holy Ratha-yatra Mahotsava.

Revatinandana: Says Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing.

Syamasundara: That's not it.

Revatinandana: That's in north Calcutta, huh?

Prabhupada: Ah.

Revatinandana: Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road?

Syamasundara: Chitpur, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing.

Revatinandana: Yeah, that's in north Calcutta.

Devotee: Nine, twelve.

Revatinandana: Oh, here we go.

Syamasundara: At three p.m.

Prabhupada: Ah-hah, is big?

Syamasundara: First five days' program, mahgala-arati. [laughs] Six days of prasadam distribution, Srimad Bhagavatam discourse, slideshows, art, drama, sahkirtana, harinama kirtana.

Revatinandana: What's that show, [indistinct]?

Prabhupada: Oh, with plan also given.

Revatinandana: Ohh.

Syamasundara: Sandhya arati.

Revatinandana: Oh, they're gonna begin...

Syamasundara: Plus...

Revatinandana: ...they're gonna begin... Oh, it's long. It's a long route. They're gonna go from Mahatma Gandhi Road down Chitpur Road to Park Street...

Syamasundara: No, they're starting...

Revatinandana: ...and from Park Street all the way to the temple.

Syamasundara: No, they're starting at the temple. Oh, yeah.

Revatinandana: Starting at the temple?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Revatinandana: Oh, I see, at the temple.

Syamasundara: Starting at the temple, instead of Mahatma Gandhi.

Revatinandana: Street, Park Street. Oh, they're going on Chowringhee Road.

Prabhupada: So they are doing something.

Syamasundara: Yeah, really. That, that'll stand out all over Calcutta.

Prabhupada: You can, you can hang this picture somewhere, permanently.

Syamasundara: Here in..., right here in...?

Prabhupada: No, no. People will see.

Syamasundara: Oh, downstairs.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are in Calcutta also.

Syamasundara: Oh, okay, in the hall. We can put it in...

Prabhupada: Now you can paste in a board.

Syamasundara: On a board?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Oh, outside.

Prabhupada: Anywhere, you can take it. But in Calcutta you should also have.

Revatinandana: And the devotees will love to see this.

Prabhupada: Ah. What is the letter?

Syamasundara: It says, "Please..., enclosed please find the Ratha-yatra poster. It would appear that it is going to be very successful, and we are expecting a large crowd at the Radha-Govinda temple. The program will run from Wednesday the twelfth to Sunday the sixteenth. Each evening we will have a special... [break]

Hamsadūta: " '...hand, and searching for Your calves. And yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma-samhita, Your body is not material.' "

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Hamsadūta: He says, "Even though You're standing before me, I can't...," so who...?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Hamsadūta: He says, "...even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand You." So people they, they think they understand it, only God is nowhere near. [laughing with Prabhupada]

Syamasundara: "As I said in my Brahma-samhita." [laughs]

Prabhupada: Now this is the position. Even Brahma cannot understand, what we can understand? So without burdening ourself, jnane prayasam. To..., jnane prayasam means endeavor to understand. No one...

Give up this practice, jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva [SB 10.14.3]. Just become submissive. Submission means that we cannot understand Krsna, simply just serve, that's all, and develop your dormant love. That is perfect.

Hamsadūta: You say... Is that why Krsna also says to Arjuna, He says, "What need is there of all this, uh..."

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Hamsadūta: In, in the Bhagavad-gita Krsna also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything."

Prabhupada: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. Jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva san-mukharitam bhavadiya-vartam jivanti [SB 10.14.3].

Syamasundara: I see that they've got a telephone in Mayapur now.

Prabhupada: Hmm ?

Syamasundara: They, they have a telephone in Mayapur.

Prabhupada: Oh!

Syamasundara: Swarupganj 31.

Prabhupada: That's nice. That..., that is wanted.

Syamasundara: Yeah. [laughs with Prabhupada] There's actually a telephone there.

Prabhupada: So many American brains are there, if they do not do like that, then what is the use? Have you seen the letter heading then?

Syamasundara: Oh, it has a little on the side, Mayapur Center.

Prabhupada: Oh, this is the same, Calcutta.

Syamasundara: Mm-hm.

Prabhupada: Ah, Mayapur Center. Sridhama Mayapur, District Nadia, Phone Swarupganj 31.

Syamasundara: You can actually telephone them someday. Yeah, if you manage to get through.

Prabhupada: Construct big, big temples, and keep it alive-by kirtana, by book distribution, by distribution prasadam. "And now we have got big temple, let us eat prasadam and sleep. [laughing] Then temple, will also sleep. That's all." Now we should also keep it in mind, unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center, because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down, that which has happened to Krsna dasa. When he was alone, he, he could not manage. There was debts, and he became disgusted. You see?

Hamsadūta: What about, Prabhupada, in, in Germany I have..., I have for instance in Munchen, in Munich, and in...

Prabhupada: There at least must be two, three men. Otherwise don't open.

Hamsadūta: Yeah, there are two or three men, but I visit them regularly. You know I...

Prabhupada: That's all right. You just living..., keep them alive.

Hamsadūta: That's right, yeah.

Prabhupada: Simply because you have opened a center the business is finished, no.

Hamsadūta: No. I go. We go there...

Prabhupada: You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasad distribution, sahkir... Busy. That is alive.

Revatinandana: And they must also study your books.

Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise, there are so many Indian temples or churches, they think the church is there, everything is finished. No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale.

Revatinandana: In Calcutta it was like that. We..., we would..., we would... Everywhere it's like that. We attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: And then more come and come.

Prabhupada: Yes.

[break] Come on. So how you were allowed to enter?

Sivananda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty.

Prabhupada: Ah. Last time you had difficulty.

Sivananda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was...

Prabhupada: Before that. So what news?

Sivananda: Nice place in Heidelberg. Krsna gave us a very nice temple there.

Prabhupada: Your health is all right?

Sivananda: My health is fine.

Prabhupada: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities. Yes.

Prabhupada: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. [chuckles] So Sivananda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Krsna is very much pleased. And Sudama was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. [end]