Room Conversation about Science – June 15, 1972, Los Angeles

720615R1-Los Angeles [56:50 Minutes]

Why they are foolishly trying that?

Prabhupada: …past misdeeds, and this man cuts your hand, he creates another misdeed. In this way we become bound up by one deed after another. Karma-bandhanaḥ.

Syamasundara: So by this tampering of bodies they'll become more and more entangled.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. First of all whether that... will be able to do so [indistinct]. And even they are able too...

Syamasundara: They've already done some…, made some progress like that.

Prabhupada: What is that progress? They cannot create even an ant.

Syamasundara: No, like changing the chromosomes and gene structures they've mutated bodies. Just like there was a…, few years back there was a drug called Thalidomide, which was given widely to pregnant women. It was supposed to help them, but it turns out that it mutated many babies. It changed the cell structure in the womb, and they all came out without any limbs-born without arms and legs.

Prabhupada: That much harm they can do. That's all. Without arms and legs they would come?

Syamasundara: It was a mistake. They created some drug which made babies being born without arms and legs. So they will be able to change bodies, that's…

Prabhupada: But change bodies cannot, because we have several times explained, that after sex the two kinds of secretion, they mix and emulsify, and it forms into a body like a pea. Then the pea grows. Now by medicinal process you can stop growing the hands and legs.

Devotee: Yet they have mistaken whatever was supposed to grow that they would grow, they would take up the next step. So if an arm was supposed to grow that day, and she took that Thalidomide, the arm wouldn't grow. The next day the process would continue to grow. So something would be missing from that day that the medicine was taken.

Prabhupada: Yes. In the growing condition… Just like a seed is fructifying, but if you add something it may not fructify.

Syamasundara: What they're trying to do now is, in a tube, a glass tube, they recreate the conditions of sex life.

Prabhupada: So that's all right. What is the credit there? Why they are foolishly trying that? That is my proposal.

Syamasundara: Well, their just simply curiosity…

Prabhupada: Suppose if they can create a living entity within a test tube, what is the credit there? There are so many living entities.

Atreya Rsi: They can never go beyond natural law.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Atreya Rsi: They can never go beyond…

Syamasundara: The only use ultimately would be destructive. They'll be able to ruin everything.

Prabhupada: And that they're doing. They're expert in doing it.

Devotee: They can't help it. How can they help it?

Prabhupada: They'll create more chaos, that's all.

Syamasundara: Even if they create fifty Einsteins. Einstein invented…

Prabhupada: If you…, even if they create… What Einstein has done?

Syamasundara: The atom bomb.

Prabhupada: What is the gift of Einstein?

Syamasundara: The atom bomb.

Prabhupada: The atom bomb?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Einstein is worshiped because he has given atom bomb? That's all?

Syamasundara: One of the things that they're trying to do now that the space administration has spent millions of dollars already, they're trying to create a cross between an animal and a man, which will have a human brain and an animal body composed of different types of animals, so that he can survive on other planets.

Prabhupada: So our Nrsimhadeva is half, nrsimha: half man. [laughter] So what is the credit there? We have already got. We worship. Anyway, we are not going to give any credit to these rascals.

Syamasundara: No, let them do it first.

Prabhupada: Yes. Whatever they propose, we have already got.

Atreya Rsi: Can we say, Prabhupada, that all these efforts are due to the perverted nature?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: In other words…

Prabhupada: Maya. This is called maya. They forget their real business, and they apply their brain in some nonsense activity. Childish.

Atreya Rsi: But their nonsense is imitation of some kind of Absolute.

Prabhupada: Nonsense.

Atreya Rsi: Their nonsense is an imitation, a perversion…

Prabhupada: Imitation is that the Absolute has got creative power, and they have got the creative power, they're using it pervertedly. That's all. That creative power…

Atreya Rsi: From where do they get these ideas?

Prabhupada: This creative power…, the ideas, any, a child can have, many ideas. Ideas, that's not going to be…

Atreya Rsi: But isn't there a perfect form of these ideas in the spiritual world, which originally these perversions came from?

Prabhupada: The perversion came from the idea. I have already explained. In the spiritual world the creative power is there. They can create anything they like. That, that is… That what they create, that is all-blissful and pleasurable. And there... This creative power here is used, whatever they create, that creates misery. That's all. That is the difference. Because it is perverted. It is perverted. It's like perverted, you can understand in this way.

Just like a tree is standing on a bank of a river. Now the top of the tree is reflected down. Just like in Vaikuntha-loka, Krsna's dancing with the gopis. That is parakiya-rasa. The atmosphere is that the gopis belong…, they are wives of other, but they have come to Krsna. This parakiya-rasa.

Parakiya-rasa means enjoyment with others' husband or others' wife. This is called parakiya-rasa. Sakhya means "married," and parakiya means "extra." There, this parakiya-rasa is the supreme. And here, this parakiya-rasa is the most abominable. The parakiya-rasa is there, but here it is abominable, and there it is supreme.

Syamasundara: The top becomes the bottom.

Prabhupada: And the bottom becomes the top.

Atreya Rsi: Similiarly, can we conclude that, for example, that if they have cars here or if they have bicycles here, or if they have any kind of facilities…

Prabhupada: No. Bicycle we have created, eh? Bicycles we have created, so the real thing is that we have got the creative power. As you are creating simply to become entangled. That creative power is being misused, and you are becoming more and more entangled. That is the problem. Now when there is question of creative power, there may be so many things created. The basic principle is creative power. You… Not that because by my concocted creative power I've manufactured bicycle, there must be a bicycle.

Syamasundara: Oh, I know.

Prabhupada: Not that.

Syamasundara: They have other vehicles, the chariots…

Prabhupada: Yes, there is. The chariots are nice thing.

Atreya Rsi: But isn't the bicycle a perversion of that chariot? In other words…

Prabhupada: Perversion it is, because you are…, your ideas are perverted; you are creating some perversion which is useless there. They don't create anything which has no bliss and knowledge. Here, everything is created under ignorance and... Misgivings? Misunderstandings. That's all.

Svarūpa Damodara: They are [indistinct] inquisitive of change, by nature. The real scientists, of course, they're completely under the control of the real consciousness…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: …but in their thinking, they think that whatever they do is done by themselves, [indistinct] being is controlling… From…, a change of consciousness. From spiritual consciousness, they change it into material consciousness, so things become worse.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: What about the… What is curiosity? What is that feeling of curiosity?

Prabhupada: Curiosity is inquisitiveness: "What is that? What is that?"

Syamasundara: Is that present in the spiritual world also?

Prabhupada: Yes. Even there is, the answer is already there.

Syamasundara: Even the answer is there, still there's curiosity.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: And then the original curiosity is the curiosity to know Krsna?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: So what I'm trying to say…

Prabhupada: Original curiosity-everything in relation with Krsna. Here also we're inquisitive to know the material nature, and that is also Krsna. But that is the external energy of the Lord. But they are the internal energy.

Syamasundara: So they can go on forever and never find…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: …Krsna.

Prabhupada: Illusory.

Syamasundara: More and more complex.

Prabhupada: That is sung by one Vaisnava poet: Iksu bhaviya manu kartacusi[?]. Iksu. Iksu, sugarcane, eh, and a stick is like sugarcane. So they're chewing the stick, not the sugarcane. [laughter] Both looks the rod, pole. But here the unfortunate, they're trying to get juice from a rod.

They have no information of the sugarcane. That is also like rod. It is perverted reflection of that rod, and they're trying to chew it and get juice out of it. That is their rascaldom. Iksu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane [indistinct]. If you…, perverted rod you chew, thinking it that it is sugarcane, then where is the sweetness? Where is the sweetness?

You are chewing a rod, and you are trying to get sweetness out of it. How it will be possible? That is a different thing. Iksu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane [indistinct]. Very good… That is Narottama dasa Thakura.

Syamasundara: There seems to be….

Prabhupada: And just like the snake is very cold, you know?

Syamasundara: Cold.

Prabhupada: Very cold. Body is very cold. So one is very heated, and he takes the snake to become cold, and the snake bites-finished. It is like that: taking cooling effect from the body of the snake.

Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada, can we say that your wanting cooling effect is all right, but your going to the wrong source, that's the mistake. In other words, the curiosity is all right, the idea is all right…

Prabhupada: Yes. That creative force is there, so use that creative force for satisfying Krsna. Then you'll get credit. But here they're using the creative force for satisfying their senses.

Atreya Rsi: They're going to the snake.

Prabhupada: Yes, senses. Therefore they're suffering. There is the mistake. The creative force, the chemical knowledge, chemist or physist, they advance the creative… Now they should use it for Krsna. Just like chemist or a physist, by chemical statement they may prove that it is Krsna, the original. Then that creative force will be…

Idam hi pumsas tapasaḥsrutasya va. Here we also, we discover so many things by tapasya. It is also tapasya, that "These people are dying; we are going to do like that." That is tapasya. So they're discovering something after many years' researches-that is called tapasya. Idam hi pumsas tapasaḥ srutasya, education; sv-istasya, gentle behavior. Sūktasya. All good things.

Intelligence, charity-these are all good things, tapasya. Hmm? But how these things will be successful? Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito: by kavi, by great sages, saintly persons, they have decided that by all these creative forces, you try to describe the Supreme Lord.

Syamasundara: Describe.

Prabhupada: Yes. The scientists can describe. A [indistinct] man, he's describing the Supreme Lord by chanting Hare Krsna. But a scientist, by his chemical research, by physical research, as they're doing, he, instead of getting a life in the test tube, nonsensical, if they make research and find out, the so-called scientists and physists and chemists can understand through chemistry, by physics, Krsna, that will be [indistinct]. They're researching, they're trying to find out the life within the test tube, but why not find out Krsna?

Atreya Rsi: Is that possible, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes. Why not possible?

Atreya Rsi: Well, I thought that the only way possible is through approaching guru and sastra.

Prabhupada: Yes. Everything has to be learned by approaching guru, because guru is giving. I'm guru, I'm giving you instruction. But by your chemical knowledge you try to explain Krsna. By your physical knowledge you to try to explain Krsna. Because Krsna is everything. This chemistry, physics, mechanics, everything, that is manifestation of Krsna's different energies. So when you have captured the energy, that through the energy go to the energetic, that will be success. That is nice.

Syamasundara: You mean just…

Prabhupada: Then your learning of chemistry, physics and mechanics and whatever you are talking of, that will be required. But they are misusing, which is implausible.

Atreya Rsi: But how could they, by…

Prabhupada: How could they, that is different thing. The instruction is that if you are researching something by your chemical knowledge, and if you're trying to establish something, so instead of that nonsense thing, you try to find out Krsna by your chemical knowledge. Chemical knowledge you can find out Krsna. Why not?

Syamasundara: Just like he was saying that there are four atoms that are the cause of everything: hydrogen, nitrogen…? Those four. So try to find out how those four are coming from Krsna's energies.

Prabhupada: Just like Krsna says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg 7.8]. This is chemistry. Is it not? Rasa, the liquid taste in water. Krsna says "I am." So now this water is the composition of hydrogen and oxygen. Now find out hydrogen, oxygen-Krsna. Make this research.

Atreya Rsi: But first he has to be Krsna conscious.

Prabhupada: Well, Krsna conscious is very, very high position. But if one wants to make his life successful… So here's chemist; this is a hint that this taste, the nice taste of water, is Krsna. Now you prove it by chemical arrangement, or that experiment.

Now Krsna says that "I am the shining of the moon and the sun." Now you find out by physical experiment. This shining, there is a source. Now, the sun is the source, the moon is the source. Now try to find out wherefrom the sun came, who created the sun.

Syamasundara: They're still mystified that the sun can create so much energy and never be diminished.

Prabhupada: Yes. So who, who manufactured this item, sun? They also say sun is composed of these chemicals. So instead of trying to analyze this composition of the sun, find out wherefrom all these chemicals came, who manufactured. As soon as we say "chemical," it has to be manufactured by somebody.

This research, that will make his chemical knowledge, physical knowledge, perfect. But if he wants to create something from globule, then it is a waste of his energy and misleading people. That he cannot.

Syamasundara: They say that the chemicals came out of energy, came from sound... ah, vibrations.

Prabhupada: Yes, the energy. So that energy must be coming…, the electric energy is coming from the powerhouse. So you have to find out wherefrom these energies are coming. I have got some stock energy by which I can lift this, is it not?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So similarly, wherefrom the energy is coming, the lifting and moving and everything? That is real research.

Atreya Rsi: Prabhupada, I understood that man could find about the properties of things and how they're related to God, but he could not connect to God with the ordinary process. The only way to connect was through hearing and submitting. So...

Prabhupada: Yes. At least one should be intelligent to understand that wherefrom the energy is coming. The answer is in Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg 10.8]. So our proposition is, Krsna conscious, we know that Krsna is the original source of all things.

Therefore our knowledge is perfect. Now, one who has become chemist and physist, he can prove this, that Krsna is the original source of all. Then his knowledge of chemistry, physics, is perfect. But the people want to know through the modern science. So if one is real scientist, let him prove that yes, this energy is coming from Krsna.

Syamasundara: [to Svarūpa Damodara] It's your job. What is your field of science? Chemistry? What kind? Organic?

Svarūpa Damodara: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: So Krsna says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Prove it, this rasa is Krsna. Prabhasmi sasi-sūryayoḥ: physics. "The shining, I am that." Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya, prabhasmi..., sabdaḥ khe paurusam nrsu [Bg 7.8]. "This sound in the sky, that I am." Then prove by physics and chemistry. That is wanted. That is bhakti. That is bhakti. Not to propose some nonsense things: "In future we shall do this and that."

Syamasundara: I was just looking at this picture. They have created this machine through so much labor and thousands…, and hundreds of thousands of dollars, just to hook it up to this lamb, this unborn lamb, like an umbilical cord. So they have created an artificial mother, so to speak, for this animal.

Prabhupada: What is the use? They are such a fool. What is the use? The mother is already…

Syamasundara: Yes. The mother's standing there. The mother's in the pasture, right?

Prabhupada: Such a nonsense, spending money. Mūḍha. Mūḍha.

Svarūpa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada is...

Prabhupada: Yaya sammohito jiva atmanam tri-gunatmakam manute anartham [SB 1.7.5]. Anartham. Anartham, useless things, any ways[?].

Syamasundara: They get some… It seems…

Prabhupada: Already there is mother, and they're spending millions of dollars to create an artificial mother. Just see.

Syamasundara: There seems to be a natural propensity for man to enjoy putting two things together and watching them. A satisfaction.

Prabhupada: That was creative. The creative force. Creative force. So God is creating. He has got the creative force, multi-energies. So just like a child, a small child, a baby, he also take another baby, doll baby. It is like that. I mean it has no value. [laughter] It has no value. [laughs] It is like that.

Syamasundara: We're playing with dolls.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: And taking it seriously.

Prabhupada: Sometimes in your country, small children, they cook. They have got small utensils. [laughter]

Syamasundara: That's right.

Prabhupada: Yes. My sister's son, when he was young, they're cooking with a lamp, [laughs] and a small piece of dough, puri, and I was the guest. [laughter] [laughs] It is not cooked; simply dipped in the ghee. And I was to eat. Eh? Hot puri! It is like that. And it's nothing but enjoying. "Mother is cooking, so we shall cook." It is like that. God is creating. Lamp. "Ah, we shall create." Then that much credit, that's all. Childish.

Syamasundara: Childish.

Prabhupada: Yes, childish playing. And foolish person, foolish man like me, he is eating that puri. [laughter] You see? So, these things are childish, and they're enjoyed by the rascals and fools. That's all. It has no value.

Svarūpa Damodara: The scientists think that knowledge is given on by Krsna, and whatever we do is for Krsna. So they're all trying to make something that they think that they are doing, they think that they are doing it for Krsna, and…

Prabhupada: No, they must see that by doing that, that Krsna is pleased. That is it…, that should be. Yes, we are doing everything for Krsna, but whether by that thing Krsna is pleased, that is to be seen. That is bhakti. Otherwise, you cannot do without Krsna. That's a fact.

The ingredients are Krsna. The intelligence is given by Krsna. Your hand is given by Krsna. Your leg is given by Krsna. So you cannot do anything without Krsna. But the credit is by doing something, when you satisfy Krsna, then you will be successful. You cannot go within the boundary of Krsna. That is not possible. Just like the same thing: the children are playing mock puris. So that is within this jurisdiction of the parents. They're not independent.

They want to play: "Mother, give me this little dough, I shall…," "All right, take it." "Give me little ghee," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "That's it." So it is not without the jurisdiction of the parents. But if by making the puri the mother and father or the guardian is satisfied, then it is perfect. Otherwise it is childish.

Syamasundara: They please the parents.

Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise it is childish. That's all. No value.

Syamasundara: But why is there pleasure in creating something, in making…?

Prabhupada: Pleasure in him, not to others. This creation will not please anyone else except that rascal.

Syamasundara: Yes, but what is that in the act of creating something, say, even I'm a rascal, if I create something nice like this, how do I…, why do I get pleasure from doing that? What is that pleasure?

Prabhupada: Pleasure?

Syamasundara: By making something, creating something…

Prabhupada: Because you are active. You are living being, you are active. So by activity means you are living. That is pleasure.

Syamasundara: If I create something like a poem or a picture, why do I get pleasure from that act, that activity?

Prabhupada: Because you have got senses. So your senses are satisfied that you have created something. By that sense satisfaction you are thinking you are satisfied.

Syamasundara: Ohhh.

Svarūpa Damodara: It is temporary it's not [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Yes, sense satisfaction.

Syamasundara: Oh, by recreating with our hands what our brain conceives…

Prabhupada: Whatever it is, it is your sense pleasure, that's all. That is material.

Syamasundara: Ah. It is part of the false ego…

Prabhupada: That's it. Yes.

Syamasundara: …to think, "I am creating this."

Atreya Rsi: Prabhupada, when you instruct that the scientists should use their science to discover Krsna, could we, as your students, acquire scientific knowledge also…

Prabhupada: No. You don't require to acquire scientific… Whatever knowledge you have got, with that knowledge you try to please Krsna.

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Prabhupada: The main business is to please Krsna. Now, because I am saying the scientist may do this for pleasing, that doesn't mean that you have to become a scientist and then please Krsna. Whatever you have got, please Krsna.

Atreya Rsi: For example, I have got a little knowledge of psychology.

Prabhupada: So you do that. Do that.

Atreya Rsi: I can prove [indistinct] that, that man has scientifically…, that man has a spirit, and that spirit is intelligent…

Prabhupada: Do that. Do that. That will be great contribution.

Atreya Rsi: Now, can't we study things like this in these classes as well?

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, your aim is to prove the existence of Krsna, that is nice. That is nice. That is the meaning of this verse I...,

Uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. Psychology, how it is working by the mercy of Krsna, by Krsna's energy-if you can describe, that will be a great service to Krsna.

Syamasundara: Tomorrow I think we will discuss one contemporary psychologist named B. F. Skinner. His basic theory is that everything is mechanical, that our psychology is a product of our conditioning. So we can tomorrow discuss that. I don't have any other questions about science. [asking other devotees:] Perhaps do you have any questions, [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: What is modern Srila Prabhupada. What is modern scientist [indistinct]?

Prabhupada: Everyone is materially contaminated. Why the scientist? Everyone. Any living entity who is in this material world, he is contaminated. Everyone. Tribhir guna-mayair bhavair. You know this verse? Tribhir guna-mayair bhavair. Where is Pradyumna? You find out the verse from the index. Tribhir guna-mayair bhavair.

Syamasundara: Tribhi...

Prabhupada: ...guna-mayair bhavair.

Syamasundara: "T-r-e" or "i"?

Prabhupada: "i." Tribhir guna-mayair bhavair. Find out the verse.

Devotee: Trividya? Traividya?

Prabhupada: No, no. Tribhir guna-mayair bhavair. Tribhir. T-r-i-b-i-h.

[devotees look for verse; indistinct comments]

Pradyumna:

The translation: "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible."

Prabhupada: This is the verse. What is purport?

Pradyumna: "The whole world is enchanted by three modes of the material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Krsna. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three gunas and is thus bewildered.

"By nature, living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brahmanas. Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called ksatriyas. Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaisyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called sūdras. And those who are less than that are animals or animal life.

"However, these designations are not permanent. I may either be a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or whatever-in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we thus think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brahmana, Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Krsna says that men, deluded by these three modes of nature, do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead.

"There are many different kinds of living entities-human beings, demigods, animals, etc.-and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Krsna consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Krsna consciousness are actually liberated."

Prabhupada: So without being Krsna consciousness, Krsna conscious, everyone is in ignorance. And in ignorance, whatever you say, that is all loose talks. That's all. It has no value. Basic standing is ignorance. Not only the scientist-not only the so-called scientist-everyone.

They're illusioned.

Svarūpa Damodara: So in this, in this… Most common people believe in so-called scientific findings of scientists, because they think that science is going to change their fate-they're going to make a nice house, science discovers something, it will give them [indistinct], very nice things. So all the scientists, the so-called modern scientists, they are, if they change a little bit their consciousness to Krsna consciousness, then they can understand the condition of people thinking that scientists are going in the right direction, they are becoming Krsna conscious?

Prabhupada: Yes. If the scientist turn to Krsna consciousness, then the face of world will be changed. Because,

The leading personalities, if they do something, others will follow. That we want. You become a big great scientist, at the same time devotee, then people will follow. If we say something by hearing from you, that is secondary knowledge. But if you say directly you have got sound footing of scientific knowledge, that will be nicely followed by others. Whatever we say, we say on the strength of Krsna's statement: "Krsna says this," "Oh, yes." Just like Krsna says,

"Everything emanates from Me." Now if a scientist says in scientific language that the original source of everything is Krsna, that will be followed by many persons. What is that verse?

[pause] You have found? Yad yad acarati sresthas?

Pradyumna: [Prabhupada says along with him]

"Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues."

Prabhupada: People are misled because the leaders are misleaders. Therefore just like this man: he is talking all nonsense; he's a rascal number one. Now, in the name of scientific words, this or that, people will be misled. That's all.

Syamasundara: The leaders are giving him millions of dollars for research.

Prabhupada: Yes. Misleaders. So when I talked "misleaders" in that [indistinct], they were doing like that. [gestures] I told them they are all misleaders. They were silent; they could not challenge me, because they know they are misleaders. How they can challenge? They know their position, that "We are nothing." They are simply bluffing people, that's all. Just like a man who is a thief. If you challenge him, "You are a thief," he will hesitate to say "No."

Right? And as soon as he remains silent, that means he's thief. If he is not thief, he will immediately say, "You rascal, why you are calling me thief? What I have done? Give me proof." That will be answer. But if he remains silent, that means he is thief. Maunam sammati laksanam. If one remains after challenge silent, that means he says "Yes." The silent means "Yes."

Syamasundara: So if we challenge the scientist and they cannot answer us...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: If we challenge the scientists and they cannot reply…

Prabhupada: They will reply, foolishly: "Yes, we are trying to find out. We shall do in future." This evasive reply. That is not reply.

Syamasundara: The whole thing is they have no basis; they don't know where everything came from…

Prabhupada: No, no. That is their defect.

Syamasundara: They don't know how it started. They don't know where it's going. They just observe a little piece of it, and they say that "This is what we are doing." [pause]

Prabhupada: Therefore knowledge means janmadyasya yataḥ, to find out the original cause. That is knowledge.

Syamasundara: Original cause.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore Brahma says, "Here is original: sarva-karana-karanam" [Bs 5.1], the cause of all causes, isvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ.

Syamasundara: Once you said that science means to know everything about something. Everything about something. So practically there is no science. They don't know. "Maybe," "Could be," "Perhaps."

Prabhupada: Yes, science means everything about. That is science. Now we know that. "Something" means Krsna. And so far we understand from the sastra, we can explain everything.

Syamasundara: But they can't explain anything about what they're working with. It's all theories.

Prabhupada: Law of gravitation: the apple falls down. They find out, discover law of gravitation. But why the apple falls here-now find out this way, not that way. [laughter]

Syamasundara: They say that the earth, the center of the earth, is iron, is mostly iron, and that makes magnetic field around the earth so that everything is drawn toward the center.

Prabhupada: But the tree grows in this way. What is that force?

Syamasundara: It's trying to resist gravity. Growing means to grow against gravity.

Prabhupada: But why doesn't it grow this way? The tree is growing this way. Why not this way?

Syamasundara: Sometimes, if it is trying to get the sunlight...

Prabhupada: Sometimes… [break]

Syamasundara: …the law of least resistance.

Prabhupada: So change it. Grow it this way.

Syamasundara: If they have to get the light, to the light, sometimes they grow like this.

Prabhupada: Then there is "if." Then is beyond your control. When you say "if," then it is beyond your control.

Svarūpa Damodara: It's controlled by Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Laws of nature.

Prabhupada: Yes. And nature is controlled by Krsna. Therefore ultimate controller is Krsna. Now they have manufactured this aeroplane, and the design is just like bird. They cannot make any other design and fly. The two wings must be there. Now fly your airplane without any wings.

So all these Xerox copy, that's all. That is their credit-copying. And they are taking, by copying, the same childish play. By preparing something nonsense, you can make another nonsense. They are taking it, "Mother, I have done this. Mother I have done this." Mother says, "Yes, dance, dance, dance like monkey." [laughter] Mother knows what that is. This is going on.

Syamasundara: So even make a little airplane out of paper and throw it, they think...

Prabhupada: Relative. According to my knowledge I throw it, that's all. And his knowledge is mechanical[?]. But he does not know how many big, big aeroplanes and planets are floating in the air. That is creation of God.

That aeroplane, so much mechanical element, and as soon as there is a big wind, "Fasten your belt." [laughter] When there is danger, "Fasten your belt." But this big lump of matter, earth, so much, I mean, bluster and so much air and wind, but we do not feel any trembling. But it is actually blowing. That's a fact.

Syamasundara: Two thousand miles, around?

Prabhupada: And moving at one thousand miles per hour. They cannot understand. This is perfection. God never says, "Now a big blast is coming: fasten your belt. Fasten your belt." [laughter]

Syamasundara: Perfect arrangement, [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Pūrnam idam. This is pūrnam, perfect, complete. Pūrnat pūrnam udacyate. Why it is perfect? Because He is perfect. He is perfect. He is not… Pūrnam udacyate. Pūrnasya pūrnam adaya: that perfect is so perfect, many millions of planets are created by His perfect energy, and still He remains the same. Not that He is finished, His energy is finished. No.

He still remains perfect. That is perfection. Here in the material world, however perfect you may be, you go on conserving, retaining your energy, then you'll [indistinct], I'll be old, I'll become again finished. But that energy is never finished.

The example is given, the touchstone. The touchstone, you go on touching iron, it becomes gold. But the touchstone's energy remains the same.

Syamasundara: The magnet is like that, too, isn't it? The magnet? It can touch so many pieces of iron, and they will all become magnetized, but the magnet remains the same magnetic.

Prabhupada: Its power. [indistinct] or touchstone. Anyway, they are the material things only. And what to speak of Krsna. Take the sun. How much energy and heat is coming for millions and millions of years. Where is the loss?

Syamasundara: No loss.

Prabhupada: This is material. You create something small. They have created this clock, one-year winding, and we have to wind it three times a day, although it is [indistinct].

Syamasundara: What is that? They say once a year?

Prabhupada: Once a year winding. And we have to take care of it three times a day. [laughter] This is nonsense. Imperfect.

Atreya Rsi: Prabhupada, when Krsna came, why did He break some of these rules?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Atreya Rsi: Why did He break some of His own rules?

Prabhupada: Because He is God. Yes. He must do that. Otherwise how He is God? If He is under the rules and regulation, then He's man, He is a human being. Should break it. That is His body. If He cannot break, then He is under the laws, the laws are not under Him. So breaking the law is Krsna's qualification. His qualification.

Atreya Rsi: Does..., the end of the life of Brahma, part of, could be also explained like natural laws? [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Just like end of your life, similarly Brahma's end of life, what is the difficulty to understand?

Atreya Rsi: Then everything else would all of a sudden stop in the material world?

Prabhupada: That we shall see... ...at the end of Brahma's life. [laughter]

Syamasundara: If we're here. [end]