Description of New York Temple and Conversation with Svarūpa Dāmodara – June 21, 1977, Vṛndāvana

You can use this letter

Tamala Krsna: ...in winter months, even though we keep it to a minimum, the oil bill runs about eight thousand dollars a month. It's very costly. Because one time we tried to turn it off, and it was very dangerous. They warned us never to do that again, because if the pipe freezes, the whole thing will explode. Therefore we have to always keep some steam coming so that it never freezes. We can't turn it off for ten hours and then turn it on again. We were thinking we could do that. That we may do in each room, but down in the boiler room we must keep the boiler going.

Prabhupada: And in summer shut off.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, yeah. We have... We hired a man. There was man working there for four years. They were paying six hundred dollars. So we kept him for the first year until... We had one man stay with him. We have one devotee, he's a plumber. He's very good man. And he learned from him everything about the boiler for one year. And then we let that man go, and we have our own man running it. And there has to be a man twenty-four hours a day, sitting with the boiler.

Prabhupada: That means you have to change.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, we have to change. One man is expert. He knows how to run. The other men, they simply watch the gauges to see that... Because the gauges indicate if everything's okay. If anything ever goes wrong, then they call that man. He's a maintenance man. He's very good.

Prabhupada: So where do they supply that...?

Tamala Krsna: Oil? There are companies that sell you oil. I don't know what the rate is.

Prabhupada: What is that oil? Petrol?

Tamala Krsna: It's crude... It's something like crude oil, I think. I'm not sure, Prabhupada. They just call it oil.

Prabhupada: Not vegetable oil.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, no. It's a crude type of oil, brown.

Prabhupada: Grease.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, it's a grease. It's for burning, though. Eight thousand dollars a month, nine thousand dollars... And that elevator, three thousand dollars.

Prabhupada: Eleven?

Tamala Krsna: The elevator charge, for the electricity, twenty-five hundred dollars a month. It's not a joke to run a building of that size. That's why in New York to have..., own a building in that location they get a very good rent. Every apartment, say, a two-and-half-room apartment, 250, 300 dollars per month.

Prabhupada: USA.

Tamala Krsna: And we have three hundred rooms. It would fetch... If it was divided up as an all-apartment building, it would make very..., lot of money. To run a building like that... It's very prestigious. Even though it's not a new building, still, it is prestigious. People are impressed. Many Indian people come there-from India-at night. A number of officials came, and they were all very... They said, "Oh, we didn't know you had such a building like this." They said like that. They were very impressed. And they liked the... They were very much impressed with the temple room and the restaurant and the general size of the building. Those three features are impressive. The restaurant they're very impressed by, pure vegetarian prasadam served with a restaurant atmosphere.

Prabhupada: And so palatable.

Tamala Krsna: Very palatable. They're quite impressed. Puris, samosas, kacauris... They couldn't dream to come to New York and get these things. Therefore they eat meat. They think it's not available. There's only one other pure vegetarian restaurant in New York.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Besides ours, there's only one other Indian pure vegetarian restaurant. And it's always packed. Indian people want vegetarian. But we... On the other hand, we only get... About one third of our customers are Indian. Mostly we get Americans. The businessmen come, and the secretaries, theater people, families.

Prabhupada: They like prasadam.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, very much. Because vegetarian is becoming now a very popular thing. People are thinking that it is more healthy to eat vegetarian. They call it health food. It's called health food. In fact, they have places called "health food bar." Instead of getting a whiskey, they get carrot juice, like that. People come... They comes sometimes just for one glass of juice. And they'll pay dollar and a half, any price. They'll pay anything in America. If you know how to sell it, you can ask any price. Now, this month of June, now the prasadam carts will be doing more and more, all day long, because New York...

Prabhupada: No, I have seen. They are always busy. Always.

Tamala Krsna: In our New York building we have two elevators. And that impresses people when they come there to see. If you own a building with two elevators in it, it's a big thing.

Prabhupada: It goes up to the roof.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. And the roof is quite nice. When the viewers see...

Prabhupada: Very nice.

Tamala Krsna: You were sitting on it. Prabhupada would sit up there in the evening, and he even took massage sometimes. The most... Excuse me, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Very nice roof.

Tamala Krsna: The special feature of that roof is that for some reason there are no tall buildings around our building. Sometimes people say, "Your movement has come a long way from Second Avenue."

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Sometimes they say... There's a couple people that even went to your place on 26 Second Avenue. They say, "This movement has come a long way in ten years, from Second Avenue." They remember you sitting there. On Sundays in New York they have the Love Feast. So the average, they get about seven hundred people come. Six to eight hundred is an average crowd on a Sunday. And they serve the... They have simultaneously activities on the five different floors..., four different floors. In the basement they have the restaurant. That is where the Life Members take prasada. And very nicely dressed people, they go down there and they sit at the tables. And we have a group of devotees chanting bhajana, and they take prasadam and we serve them right at the table. Then, on the next floor, there is all the time kirtana and arati, throughout the Love Feast. It starts from five in the evening till nine. So they have continuously kirtana and arati. And also the store. We have a very good store. It's a very big-sized store, and it has all kinds of devotional paraphernalias, all instruments, mūrtis, things to make people take part in Krsna consciousness in their homes. And another very popular thing we have, just in front of the temple room we have a big table where we sell flowers and oils which people can purchase to offer to the Deities. And even mukutas for the people... Even though we would have bought them for the Deities anyway, but this way we put them there and the people buy them and then they come and offer them to Radha-Govinda, so it's a... We don't have to purchase ourselves. And then we sell prasadam. People take home. They like dessert. We sell in box. We have cardboard boxes the same as they have in bakeries where they put bread. We put different types of pastries and other things that have been offered to the Deity as maha-prasadam. People purchase this. Then on the next floor up there is a lecture room, so there someone's always giving lectures, constantly giving lectures. And then there's different offices there, Life Membership office, so we're enrolling members there. Then the floor after that they have a big lounge, and there we show all the time movies from the cassettes, so people can come in all the time and see movies. Plus there's prasadam. All young people, sitting on the floors, taking prasadam in all the different rooms.

Prabhupada: They enjoy.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, yeah. And then again on the next floor up it's the same, plus there's the theater, and the theater has two performances, Sudama Maharaja's group. So a person can go from one floor to another for many hours and take part in different activities and feel very blissful. They love it. The same people love coming again and again, every Sunday. And then there's about eight or nine devotees, their only business is to try and make the people join and become full-time devotees.

Prabhupada: And book selling?

Tamala Krsna: Book selling... We sell at least, say, I would say, something like about four hundred dollars' worth of books every Sunday at the temple. Most of the people who came, they came because they bought your book, and we gave them an invitation to the feast. Everyone who has joined has bought your book first. That is their introduction to Krsna consciousness-a book. Very few people come first to a temple. First thing they take and read your book. Then they become interested. The book goes into their home. [break] They can put these. Oh, yeah... Because they're libraries. I mean, they can buy the books. They can buy the books. The theology, arts... Nothing wrong with their buying, but probably they... From what I know, the general system is that you don't send salesmen into these communist countries. You send a brochure, and they buy through their agents. And this is unheard of, that someone sneaks into a country with all these books and preaches. He said sometimes his life is threatened.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Tamala Krsna: He has to run out of the universities because finally, after a while, the officials get notified. They figure out who he is, and then they start chasing him. Then he had to run out.

Prabhupada: Dangerous affair.

Tamala Krsna: But after all, it is literary. They know we're not... It's not like a political spy.

Prabhupada: All open secret.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah.

Prabhupada: "Here is the book."

Tamala Krsna: Still, he's very brave.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: This boy is very nice. He graduated top honors from Princeton, president of his class.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: He was the president of his class at Princeton University. When he graduated, he was top man in the school. In the Ivy League. That school is as good as Harvard. He's an extraordinarily intelligent... I stayed with him for some time. He sleeps three or four hours, maximum, a day. He eats practically nothing. Very austere. Very, very austere. And humble, very humble. Very saintly person. But when he sells your books, he becomes completely different then. It's like Tripurari. When Tripurari is... Normally in the temple he's very humble, quiet. But when he's out there selling... He has a new system now. When he was here he told me. He goes to these spiritual fairs, where there's many thousands of people come to learn about spiritual subjects. So he stands there, and he... In the normal fairs in the United States, they have a man, they're called carnies. What they do is they stand around-this is the normal-type person-and they gather a big crowd by talking very quickly, and they throw everyone some object for free-say a, some cheap thing, whatever it may be..., a pen, a fountain pen. They'll pass out twenty of them for free. So that... Hundreds of people gather around, 'cause they all want to get a free thing. So then after that, he says, "Now everybody who got a pen give me $2, and I'm going to give you something better." So they all put $2 down. Then he says, "Now anyone who wants to get that thing that's better, but you didn't get a pen, you put down $5," and many people put down money. And like this he takes them along, giving a little bit and taking so much money, until eventually people are putting down $50 at a time. I saw this when I was traveling with our buses. We would go to these fairs. Tripurari, he studied this, and now he's doing it also, but with your books. See, he sells sometimes fifty and sixty books at a time, big books. He knows how... He gets people to put down money, telling them that he'll give them something. First he gives out some small thing, then they all put down finally $5, and then he gives everyone a Bhagavad-gita. [laughing] So he's learned how to do this, but he's..., sometimes he's selling two and three hundred books in a day-huge quantities of books. He's figured out a new system. So these men, they become very much empowered by you, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: All right. [break]

Tamala Krsna: This is... You know Kirtiraja from Los Angeles? He says, "Dear Srila Prabhupada, please accept my humble obeisances at your lotus feet. In a humble attempt to give some pleasure to Your Divine Grace I am writing this letter and enclosing some information. I became a member of the Los Angeles..."

Prabhupada: [indistinct]

Tamala Krsna: Says, "I became a member of the Los Angeles World Affairs Council about six months ago. It is a group of about eight thousand prominent citizens of Los Angeles who are concerned in the foreign policy of the US and in world affairs in general." He's a member now. "They sponsor luncheons for prominent visitors from the US government and foreign governments also. They also have a volunteer program for visitors coming from foreign countries. When the visitor arrives, they have various appointments which have been arranged for them, so volunteers from the World Affairs Council take them to these appointments. I usually take every visitor from the Eastern European countries to at least..." Because he speaks Polish, so he's always being asked to take the visitors around, "...to at least one appointment and give them a copy of your Bhagavad-gita..." While he's taking them there, he's preaching, and he gives a copy of the Bhagavad-gita. "...a calendar and a copy of a foreign language book, such as the Russian or Hungarian book if they speak that language. Whichever language they speak, we have our books now. I previously brought them to my apartment at the temple, for either lunch or dinner, until one very prominent Russian professor, a very close friend of Dr. Kotovsky, and a Romanian film producer complained to the Washington, D.C., office of the World Affairs Council that they felt very strange being brought to the temple. I think that this was because they were the biggest demons of all."

Prabhupada: Huh?

Tamala Krsna: He says, "I think that this was because they were the biggest demons that I have ever had here. All of the others liked the temple, and even those two big demons liked the prasadam. They liked my apartment and my family. However, they just didn't like Krsna, so they complained. But now I am no more committed to bring these people here. They have checked them." They told him, "You can be a tour man but you can't bring them to your temple." "However, I do take them prasadam and books, and they are grateful to receive these gifts." He has a job, and with the money he makes, he donates the money to buy books and gives these books out. "The people at the World Affairs Council here say I am their most enthusiastic volunteer. I have enclosed some sheets showing those people who have received your books and prasadam, and the positions that they hold. I hope that this is pleasing to Your Divine Grace."

Prabhupada: Hmm!

Tamala Krsna: He also included a letter... You know the former president was Mr. Ford. So he got a letter from Mr. Ford. It says, "Dear Mr. Jacupko"-that's his karmi name-"I wish to thank you for sending me a copy of Bhagavad-gita As It Is. You were most kind to think of me, and I am deeply grateful for your friendship. With appreciation and best wishes, sincerely, Gerald R. Ford." It's got the US eagle on the letterhead.

Prabhupada: You can use this letter.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, he says that "I heard..." This is from ex-president Ford. "There was some discussion that perhaps he would be a candidate in the 1980 Presidential election here." Anyway, he's an important man. Then he lists some of the people who have gotten your Bhagavad-gita as well as other small book in Russian or other languages and prasadam. "Mr. Igor Orligalik, Deputy Director of the Institute of Economy of World Socialist System of the USSR Academy of Sciences. Mr. Alexander Borisov, Assistant Professor at the chair of History of International Relations and Foreign Policy of the USSR, Moscow State Institute. The deputy editor-in-chief of the magazine Science and Life. A deputy head of Department of Developed Capitalistic Countries at the magazine International Affairs." He's got a long list of people. You see, and he keeps a file on all these people, so if ever we go to these countries, then we know which people got our books, and these are all highly placed people, very prominent people. Good work. One of these lunches is very expensive-$7.50 per person. [reads:] "Los Angeles World Affairs Council cordially invites you to attend a special luncheon discussion meeting with the USSR-USA Society Delegation to the Soviet Union." This is one such invitation that's put out by these people. Every one of these people who spoke there, all the delegates, he gave them Bhagavad-gitas, the Russian Easy Journey and a calendar.

[break] [kirtana] [break]

Prabhupada: ...slaughter, bigger slaughter. This is my practical experience. Father hates. [break]

Devotee: This is pineapple juice. [break]

Prabhupada: We saw lots of people.

Tamala Krsna: Still...

Prabhupada: In the beginning, when the marriage took place, thousand was common. He was everything. [breaks]

Tamala Krsna: Then he stopped everyone from wearing saffron.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Somebody said that. He wore... [breaks]

Prabhupada: Mandaḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutaḥ .

Tamala Krsna: That personality of Kali... When Sudama Maharaja was dramatizing-very appropriate. Kali as Sin. Wine, women, intoxication, illicit sex, gambling, LSD. Then Sin said, "Now we will eat our own children."

Prabhupada: When he says, what the audience thinks?

Tamala Krsna: Well, the audience, they laugh, and yet the laughing is a little... They swallow their laughing. In one sense it's funny; in the other sense they know it is very true, and they feel it. Actually it would be difficult to say such strong thing, but because it is in a formal theater, the audience sits there respectfully, taking it all.

Prabhupada: So we are criticizing, but...

Tamala Krsna: But no one else is.

Prabhupada: Nobody understands that these are bad things.

Tamala Krsna: No. Before I met you, Srila Prabhupada, I was smoking cigarettes. So I tried to stop so many times, 'cause someone would say it is bad for health. But when you said it is bad for spiritual life, then I could stop, 'cause no one ever said that before, that these things are against spiritual life. No one ever said that. Everything is put on such a mundane level, no one cares. But when we're told that "You are spirit, and this is against your spiritual life," then it hits very deeply. Apart from you, no one has ever said anything about spiritual life in the West.

Prabhupada: They do not know what is spirit, what is spiritual life. Everywhere.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, what to speak of the West, these Communist countries...

Prabhupada: Everywhere. In India also.

Tamala Krsna: There's nothing like your books, Srila Prabhupada, anywhere. There's no such thing like that. And now they're gracing the homes of millions and millions of people's shelves. [break]

Svarūpa Damodara: ...the professors there. And I talked with the head of the Botany Department this morning in Agra, Botany. Life Sciences. School is... It's a summer vacation, holiday, but we went to his home, and I started talking about our conference.

Prabhupada: [indistinct]

Svarūpa Damodara: And I requested him whether he's interested in this type of conference. And I also started talking about evolution. So he told me that it's already proven that life comes from chemicals. Then I told him that "How do you know?" He told me what he had understood, but he couldn't tell anything. And I told him that "These are all stories. So you think that whatever knowledge is coming from the West, the Western countries, from the United States, is the ultimate. It's written in books. And you never think what is written in the Gita, in Bhagavad-gita." He's also a brahmana. He's a tri-vedi. So I started telling that "These are all fairy tale stories, and we'd like to prove that whatever science knows so far, it's all wrong." So he was very interested in what I said, [Prabhupada chuckles] and he said that he's very interested to take part in our conference, and he's coming. He said they can bring many scientists from Agra to participate in the conference. So...

Giriraja: Is there many of them?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. And I also started telling him little bit about what the significance of this conference will be. I requested him that as Indian scientist it is his also responsibility to look into things very carefully, not just accept things whimsically, even in science. Because in all the Western scientific doctrines, they always say these things without any proof, something very strong statement, saying that this is a factual..., factually established, but which is not correct. That's a little bit cheating. I said he should look into these things very carefully and then make a some sort of assessment, see whether there's anything wrong or this blindly accepting because it is coming from the West. Anything coming from the West it seems to be correct and true, but there have been shown, especially in this case, about the life processes, I said West doesn't know anything about life, the fundamental principles of life. So it is his responsibility as well as the responsibility of the leading scientists to look into these things very carefully, and analyze, and then make a decision like that, not just saying that this is in the books, what is said, this is common proof. Then he was... He felt little uneasy, because he just said straight, he said, "It is already proven." And I said, "How do you know?" And he didn't say anything. He didn't even say anymore. So I knew at this stage that he changed his outlook. And I requested him to participate in this program and... It will be very meaningful as a normal...

Prabhupada: So you are listing all the men who will participate?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. I'm going to have all the... I'm leaving tomorrow in the morning, and I'm leaving for Bombay. From there I'm leaving to the States on Friday morning.

Prabhupada: I want to give you the best place in Bombay.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, Tamala Krsna Maharaja told me that.

Prabhupada: Because you have to invite so many respectable, big scientists.

Svarūpa Damodara: We are coming back just at the end of August. It's only two months. At this time we are all coming here together, and I have organized the Vrndavana conference. That's October 14, 15, 16. I have organized for three days. There will be six topics. In each day there'll be two topics.

Prabhupada: Morning, evening.

Svarūpa Damodara: Morning and the evening. And I'd like to have six chief guests. All, they will be scientists from Delhi and surrounding areas, some well-known scientists. And also I'm thinking of inviting a few political...

Prabhupada: Leaders.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...leaders. Governor of the state and Educational Minister. Dr. Sharma told me that he can arrange those things easily.

Prabhupada: So do that.

Svarūpa Damodara: Dr. Sharma is very helpful, and he's very interested in this idea.

Prabhupada: You are doing nicely. Krsna will help. [pause]

Svarūpa Damodara: I wanted to ask Srila Prabhupada... Yesterday I was asking about that title, that "Bhaktivedanta Vijnana Conference." That doesn't seem to be attractive. It's not...

Prabhupada: No.

Svarūpa Damodara: So Your Divine Grace has some suggestion?

Prabhupada: Why not stress that life coming from life, not otherwise?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, that will be the theme: life comes from life. Just like "Scientific Conference on Life Comes From Life"?

Prabhupada: That will be nice.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, I think that will be... That will be an interesting title to...

Prabhupada: That will be nice.

Svarūpa Damodara: So we'll title that. We'll make nice posters.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Whatever is there, little how much is done? Lets see [Indistinct] do you know more?] Hmm. You have to attract these men.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: "Organized by Bhaktivedanta..." Write.

Svarūpa Damodara: Institute...

Prabhupada: Institute.

Svarūpa Damodara: "Organized by Bhaktivedanta Institute," we will write.

Prabhupada: Is that all right?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: [Transl. So such scientists, they respond to this?]

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. I think it will be very interesting.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: It will be very interesting to Indian scientists, because some of them have already taken the idea that what is said in the West is correct.

Prabhupada: That is correct. Sarasvati jnana-khale yatha sati [SB 10.2.19]. [Transl. That knowledge gained, will be covered up, fire will be covered with ashes, fire covered with ashes] Fire. Blazing fire subdued by covering with...

Svarūpa Damodara: Water.

Prabhupada: ...ashes. This is going on. Hmm? [Transl. So all this foreign scientists are challenged?].

Svarūpa Damodara: Modern scientists?

Prabhupada: [Transl. Only] Indian scientists.

Svarūpa Damodara: Oh, this would be for everybody, because just starting here. But especially I like to attack the Japan and the United States, 'cause Japan and the United States, they are pretty much the leading powers, very...

Prabhupada: Stubborn.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. And I'd like to specially make a strong show in Japan and the United States. So I'd like to attack them as my last point. Getting momentum from the smaller areas and having confidence and also some support from some leading scientists, then I'd like to put my full force in Japan and United States.

Prabhupada: Japan and... Make... [Indistinct]

Svarūpa Damodara: I have many friends in Japan because when I studied in California, there were many students from Japan, because California is...

Prabhupada: [Transl. Not much is needed to be expressed, but do it very quickly, they will listen seriously or [Indistinct.]]

Svarūpa Damodara: We have to be serious because this is a threat to the existing scientific theory. So they cannot just remain silent. They have to do something, 'cause otherwise we are going to propagate it it's all wrong. So they have to do something. They cannot just remain silent, because... We are not just speaking. There will be books, proving that these are all nonsense.

Prabhupada: [aside:] You have got increased snuff boxes?

Upendra: Er, one little one and that big one there. I'll check to see if there's any more.

Prabhupada: Life is a different material.

Svarūpa Damodara: Life?

Prabhupada: Is a different material.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Apart from this physical and chemical...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: And life never comes from physical and chemical condition, but it comes from life.

Svarūpa Damodara: But...?

Prabhupada: It comes from life.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: This is to be discussed.

Svarūpa Damodara: And that original life is Krsna.

Prabhupada: And then Krsna, yes. [laughs]

[indistinct discussion with Upendra]

[Transl. They are not shocked that it is a revolutionary story.] They are not shocked?

Svarūpa Damodara: Well, they will be shocked. [Prabhupada laughs] Actually, science doesn't know anything about life. That's what I was pointing out today. Science studies only matter, like physics, chemistry, biology, just chemical reactions...

Prabhupada: Bahir-artha-maninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Bahir-artha-maninaḥ. Bahir artha. Just like the body is the external feature of my life. So this is bahiḥ. Bahiḥ means external. The vairuddhi[?]... The external feature is visible. Therefore it is called drsya-guna, visible modes of nature. This body... [break]

Svarūpa Damodara: ...is visible part.

Prabhupada: No, life is not visible to him. He is simply seeing the combination of the modes of nature visible.

Svarūpa Damodara: There's a very interesting remark by one of the Nobel Prize-winning chemists. His name is Szent-Gyorgyi. He got Nobel Prize for discovering Vitamin C. And he said he was looking for life for last twenty years or so, but, he said, he wound up with the electrons and protons, which don't have any life. He said, somehow life has escaped through his fingers.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, he says that.

Prabhupada: That life has escaped and life is required.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, that means they couldn't find life.

Prabhupada: [With Bhakti-caru:] [Transl. If these can be proved, then our Krishna consciousness is successfull.] Life comes from life, and the supreme life, Supreme Being, is God. That is Krsna.

Svarūpa Damodara: Krsna.

Prabhupada: [Transl. See dictionary, what is the meaning of God.] Just see the dictionary, what is the meaning of God...

Svarūpa Damodara: "God: superhuman being worshiped as having power over nature and the human persons; deity..."

Prabhupada: "Superhuman being."

Svarūpa Damodara: "Superhuman."

Prabhupada: So His body is like human being. That is admitted. [Transl. You could have done it, now this is a practical experience.]

Svarūpa Damodara: It also says, "Supreme Being, creator and the ruler of the universe."

Prabhupada: That's it.

Svarūpa Damodara: It also says, "the Absolute Truth."

Prabhupada: Hmm. So it is there in the dictionary, it is in the Vedas, and practically proved. In the Vedas confirmed, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13]: "The Supreme Being is the chief living being." There are so many living beings, but He is the original living being. He is the original, eternal substance, and the living beings, they are also eternal, same quality, but He is the Supreme. How He is Supreme? Because He maintains these eternal living beings, and the other living beings, they are maintained by Him. Just like in a family the father is the chief man and he maintains the family, similarly God is the Supreme Being. He maintains all other living beings. Anantyaya. There is no limit. Jiva-bhagaḥ sa vijneyaḥ sa anantyaya kalpate [Cc Madhya 19.140]. The living beings are... They cannot be counted. At night we see, a small insect, millions of, come. Millions. Similarly everywhere you'll go, you'll find full of living..., janakirna, different grades. They're all maintained by God. Therefore He's called chief living being. Quality, the same. He's living being; we are living being. Whatever propensities He has got, we have got. But we are not independent. We are dependent on Him. This position has to be clearly understood. Then we have to surrender to Him to fulfill our desires, and that is bhakti-marga. Is that clear? Same thing write. There is no other way.

Svarūpa Damodara: That makes sense.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Otherwise everything falls apart.

Prabhupada: Just like the finger is my part and parcel of the body. It must work according to my desire. Then it is healthy. Otherwise diseased. I am moving this. It is in healthy condition. If it cannot move by some cause, then it is diseased. So when we are working under the direction of Krsna, that is our healthy state. Otherwise diseased. I am... I am correct?

Svarūpa Damodara: Jaya. If a scientist thinks very carefully...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...actually he will be the one who will accept that there is God, because we see practically every..., in every experiment...

Prabhupada: You are god-limited. Limited god. You cannot maintain. Therefore you are limited. You can become god within your family, within your office, within your kingdom. You are not Supreme God. To a limited extent you are God. Because you have got the quality of God, so according to your capacity, within limited jurisdiction, you may be God. So dictionary is there. Vedic assertion is there. Logic is there. Science is there. Prove. Then your education will be successful. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. When you can prove this, then the meaning of your education will become... Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttama-sloka-gunanuvarnanam [SB 1.5.22]. To glorify the exalted position of God, that is wanted. Is it clear?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita says, mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]. That is Krsna. That Supreme Being is Krsna.

Svarūpa Damodara: The origin of life is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. From Brahma we have come. And Brahma is generated from Krsna. Janmady asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Param satyam dhimahi. So let them come forward and discuss. So we have to prove to the world that it is not brainwashing; it is real knowledge. Why you should keep it suppressed and leave the people in ignorance? It is not your duty to bluff and cheat. That is not science. You are cheating people and getting Nobel Prize. That we have to..., in a large scale.

Svarūpa Damodara: There will be immediate reaction from the team called "The Study of the Origin of Life from Chemicals." They have also an international society. They also publish a journal.

Prabhupada: We have to defeat them.

Svarūpa Damodara: So it will be just like a battle.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is a battle.

Svarūpa Damodara: There is also a Christian group...

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarūpa Damodara: In Christianity, a Christian group, they also are trying to counteract modern science, but their approach is very superficial. They also think that somehow God created life, but the way their knowledge is based, it's very superficial, so the scientists don't take anything seriously. They also say that it's only about five thousand years ago that man was created, these groups.

Prabhupada: Not thousand. Millions. The very beginning. God has brain; therefore we have got brain.

Svarūpa Damodara: They call Creation Research Institute. They have office in San Diego.

Prabhupada: There is no question of creation. God is not creator..., er, not created. He is creator. And as long as God is there, the living beings... It is not uncertain. The nityaḥ, sasvataḥ. Then these two words would not have been used if it is created. He never said.

Svarūpa Damodara: It is eternal.

Prabhupada: Na jayate na mriyate [Bg 2.20]. He never said. Cannot create. They want to create life. Rascal, you cannot do. Not at all. Hmm? You have got sanity.

Upendra: Srila Prabhupada, can you sleep? It's time.

Prabhupada: I can give you idea. Now you develop. Whatever ideas I am giving, it is nonrefutable idea, final.

Svarūpa Damodara: It also makes difficult for others to argue.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Where there is argument? Nonsense, how you can argue? And therefore you are rascal. And that is also forbidden. Acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet : "Things which are beyond your conception, don't foolishly argue, rascal." That will prove your rascaldom. Better accept what the authority says. It is beyond your conception, rascal. Why you are wasting time? That we want to protest, that all of them are rascals, and they are simply wasting time by false idea. Cheating. You know, there are companies. They'll... They have got photographic studio. So they adjust their moon hoax. They'll help you. If you have got particular idea: they are going to the moon planet, Mars. Nowhere the rascals go. There is no knowledge. How they can go? Teeny, imperfect. So if we can prove that they have no knowledge of the universe, neither of the position of their...

Svarūpa Damodara: Actually if these two things, that life comes from life and this concept of the universe, two points are clear, then everything is taken care of.

Prabhupada: Very good. Their false propaganda...

[pause] [break] Scientists, they should seriously charge for the prestige of their Vedic knowledge. "Yes, my... Yes, sir, you are stating." What is this nonsense? "You are creating some rascals?" "Yes, my lord." In the name of education.

Svarūpa Damodara: I made an advertisement in MIT saying that... Korana is the man who synthesized this gene... They thought that might be life. So I was putting in an MIT newspaper in the campus, saying that "Korana's gene is not life, and virus is not life. These are all molecules. They have nothing to do with life." So we have a lecture coming up next month, July 10th, in the MIT campus, so three of us are going to speak on life coming from life. Because this is an MIT campus, so there'll be many people from his group coming, because it is directly challenging the biggest group in the United States about this...

Prabhupada: So do they accept?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. And some Indians are on our side, specially this Indian Student's Association, and also there is an association called Indian Association for Greater Boston. Of all these associations... The president and the secretary came to me, and they are supporting us.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Svarūpa Damodara: So they're organizing these lectures, so we have a show on July 10th.

Prabhupada: Make a great agitation. It will be done, if you work. [pause] A great challenge of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, for the whole world. Is it not?

Svarūpa Damodara: Oh, yes.

Bhakti-caru: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Na te viduḥ. These rascals, they do not know. That is going on.

[long pause] You talked with Dalmia?

Svarūpa Damodara: Dalmia, yeah. I talked briefly yesterday.

Prabhupada: What does he say?

Svarūpa Damodara: He liked the idea, but it seems that he doesn't have very intellectual motive.

Prabhupada: He cannot have. He is a sentimentalist. He has no clear idea. Neither it is possible for him.

Svarūpa Damodara: We'd like to know this very clearly and see things properly.

Prabhupada: Nowadays scientific education, the students in the school...

Svarūpa Damodara: Once it is convinced, then it is convinced forever, on a scientific level.

Prabhupada: Then there will be question, "If the life is eternal, then whatever we have wrongly taken as life, temporary, that is only waste of thought[?]."

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. That is a corollary. The whole educational system has to be changed.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: Everything they thought, this chemistry and physics, it's going to be all wrong.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: So they have no alternative.

Prabhupada: And that is spiritual knowledge.

Bhakti-caru: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No, how it is possible? You have not..., nothing to do with the material nature. You are spirit.

Bhakti-caru: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Then you are spirit. How you can say that your life is correct and...? It is all wrong.

Svarūpa Damodara: That is the very point, that science studies not life but...

Prabhupada: Superficially.

Svarūpa Damodara: External. Just like Prabhupada's... The external manifestations.

Prabhupada: Features. Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: So they are mistaken. So this is the whole basis. Once this is clarified, then others will follow just...

Prabhupada: Automatically.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...automatically.

Prabhupada: And unnecessarily they are wasting time on the material plane.

Svarūpa Damodara: Not only... Time and effort, energy, money-everything. Some people are almost spending day and night, just...

Prabhupada: Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8].

Svarūpa Damodara: They are also very dedicated and working, some of the scientists.

Prabhupada: They have no other alternative.

Bhakti-caru: [indistinct]

Svarūpa Damodara: They work so hard and...

Prabhupada: For nothing.

Svarūpa Damodara: But all in their own direction...

Prabhupada: Actually the body is changing. All his efforts-futile. And he is eternal.

Svarūpa Damodara: This is also a blow to the communist world, Communism also. It has several effects.

Prabhupada: That scientist said life slipped away from his...

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, somehow life escaped from his fingers. So that's a proper word. I'm quoting his word, using it as an authentic quote from them. We also use some words which will be not so favorable when they read these things, our things. We're also trying to criticize them, that they are...

Prabhupada: That do.

Svarūpa Damodara: ...intellectually dishonest, try to propagate a false knowledge in the name of scientific knowledge.

Prabhupada: That moon hoax.

Svarūpa Damodara: Just like this man, Crick, is the Nobel Prize winner. He's from Cambridge, a very famous man at this time. He says, "Once we accept that we come from chemicals, then we have a whole new culture which is..." He doesn't say what that culture is. He says, "We'll have a whole new culture, and everything will be so easy." And that culture... We spelled out that that culture is meaninglessness and voidism.

Prabhupada: Only useless labor.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. [long pause] [end]