June 23, 1977, Vrndavana
Prabhupada: ...and prostitutes. So...
Prabhupada: Yes. In Calcutta in our childhood I have seen many big, big prostitutes, Vaisnavi.
Prabhupada: All, their behavior, their living... Simply they were not married. They were kept by some big men. Otherwise everything was so nice. Big, big prostitutes.
Prabhupada: There was a big temple of prostitutes in Calcutta, Kach-Kamil.
Prabhupada: Kach-Kamil. Kach-Kamil means the gentleman who kept her, he was a big glass merchant. So the temple was decorated with mirrors and glass, and her name was Kamil, so Kach-Kamil temple. Still there are. Everyone was Krsna conscious, either poor man, retired man or prostitute or gentleman or rich man—everyone. The society itself was Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: No Ramakrishna... Who cares for?
Prabhupada: No, no. Oh... Because people are degraded. Who cared for Ramakrishna?
Prabhupada: Still who cares for Ramakrishna?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is another thing.
Tamala Krsna: I mean to say, in those days people were a little bit more authentic in their, you know...
Prabhupada: Degraded, most. There is no principles. Formerly there was a standard principle. Then they fall down.
Prabhupada: British gave liberty about our culture and religion. They never interfered. That was their credit. They knew it. If they interfered with their internal affairs, then they will be lost. That was Queen. She guided them.
Prabhupada: No, they were very good politician. (pause) I can say, in the British period there was no scarcity, and leniency. I recall the way. Didn't require... And when they like... With three hundred rupees they were so happy. Now you calculate that three hundred rupees means ten thousand. So where is that ten thousand rupees?
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, a whole family of them. This is their feeding place, the garbage can here. They don't come when they see people, though. Around all the holy places I always see a lot of monkeys and cows in India. Is there some reason, special, about... I mean, cows, there's obvious reason, but what about the monkeys? Why are they around the holy places?
Prabhupada: Because they are fed by the visitors.
Prabhupada: Here you'll find many of...
Tamala Krsna: I remember in the Radha-Govinda Temple in Jaipur, oh, the monkeys, they lived there as regular citizens practically. And they're very friendly there. They come up and they hold their hand out.
Prabhupada: That Krsna was giving the monkeys. Monkeys were pet, not as enemy.
Prabhupada: He was giving butter. In the forest playing with them.
Prabhupada: Playing. If you give them to eat something, they become friendly.
Prabhupada: Before, it is described, before human birth, monkey, either monkey or lion or cow. Sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Monkey's tamo-guna, cow is sattva-guna, and lion is rajo-guna. This is the last animal life before human life, gradually. Everything is described. Darwins want to take credit, (laughs) nonsense.
Prabhupada: Hm. He was rascal speculator. He took the idea from the Vedic literature, and he wanted to take the credit himself, and the different hodgepodge theory, this is... Britishers took the idea from Vedic literature and presented in British way. Britisher wanted that "We are the monopolizers of all scientists, all big men." Sir Isaac Newton, then the, who is that, Darwin, big politicians, Gladstone, everything big-British. They wanted it. "British means all big men. Therefore we must rule over the world." All Lords, Sirs, and this and that... They wanted to prove, "The only big men of the universe, they take birth in England, and therefore we should rule over the world." (laughs) And this was their pledge.
Prabhupada: No, artificially you can do for a while. Unless it is sound footing, it cannot stay. You can cheat some people for some time..., no, all time. You can cheat some people for all time, and all people for some time, not all people for all time. This is the... That was their business, to cheat some people for all time and cheat all people for some time. But not all people for all time. That is not possible.
Prabhupada: (Bengali) (Bengali conversation) Britishers made a mistake. They made a empire, very good, but they did not rule for the people. They wanted to rule over the world for their own sake, London. Their policy was all big, big brain from England should go outside, earn money and bring in London, exploit. Therefore it is... Otherwise it was a very grand plan. They were very nice. This was suggested by one of their viceroy in India, Lord Curzon, that "India is a vast country, very cultured country. Don't try to exploit them. Better send one royal family member to become king here and rule as one empire. Don't discriminate." The others did not like the idea. "Make England's men king in India. The people in general, they like king. And rule over them and have good relationship." These rascals, they did not like.
Tamala Krsna: Even had they put in a king in the modern days, the tendency is to kick out the foreigners.
Prabhupada: No, if they had ruled nicely, according to the Indian principles... The Muhammadans did it, and they ruled over eight hundred years. The Britishers could not do it. They could not rule over two hundred years. Within two hundred years finished. And during Muhammadan period there were many, many powerful Sikhs. Staying, they did not like to drive away the Muhammadans. Whole Rajputana was full of big, big kings. They could have thrown away them. Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. But they did not do. They cooperated.
Prabhupada: Yes. Akbar appointed this Mansingha, who has made these temples. He was commander-in-chief. Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. The all governmental power was in the hand of Indians. Only the Muslims were there.
Prabhupada: Yes, they know. And besides that, they did not exploit. Whatever enjoyment they did—within India, not that taking away the money outside India. Therefore it was very good relationship. And Indian people, they do not mind who is king. "We pay our tax. That's all." That is the attitude from the very beginning. The general people, they did not mind whether Kurus or war(?) will reign over or the Pandavas. "We don't mind. You become fight. You become king. We give our tax. That's all." So there was no fight with the subject between king and citizens. This democracy is a demon-crazy. It has no value. It is simply waste of time and effort and no feeling, demon-crazy. I do not know who introduced this. In India still there is no demon-crazy. Indian king always. Everyone is taking part in politics. What is this nonsense? It is meant for the ksatriyas. They can fight and defend. The rascals, bhangis, chamars, and they are also in politics. Harijanas... Every one of them vote, and everyone has got the right to become king, minister. Not this. The real thing they are missing, the mode of life, the aim of life. [break]...care. Everyone is theorizing, everyone is educated, and everyone is, they're hippie. That's all.
Prabhupada: Hippie. The result is hippie. In Western countries I see and lament. So many percent of their population are hippies. What is the benefit? They cannot do anything, useless population. They cannot utilize. And in America the Vietnam was selected—"Let them die," in disappointment. Useless waste of... They require... Could not manage. "Let them die." Marawara gar leka.(?) When we have finished all sorts of condemnation, we say, "You die." That's all. Tell them. They have no idea how to reform this degraded population. This is the only way, Krsna consciousness. In New York I have seen in ordinary places how niggardly they live. No human being can live like that. In good places, nicely dressed, nicely... But in East... East Village or something?
Prabhupada: No gentleman can live. So niggardly. The shops, the neighborhood, the area, all...
Prabhupada: No, no, I did not select that. Unknowingly I was thrown. I did not know which quarter is good way.
Prabhupada: Mukunda. I asked him that "Find out some upper class...." He found out that 26 Second Avenue. (laughs) I did not know. That's all. Anyone...
Prabhupada: The landlord took advantage. He was receiving rent, eighty-nine rupees or eighty rupees. He charge me 125. And another room, he was getting fifty. So he charged me seventy-five. Little room.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes, dollars. Eighty and fifty, 130. He charged me two hundred.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, you were paying too much. 'Cause I was living right there. I was not paying so much. I was paying sixty-five dollars.
Prabhupada: How many there was...?
Prabhupada: Just see.
Prabhupada: I took advantage, "Let me stay somewhere." I was loitering in the street, so I thought, "Let me stay somewhere. Then I shall see later on."
Tamala Krsna: That's exactly what you had, two hundred dollars. You had saved that money very carefully?
Prabhupada: Not carefully. Anyway, I got it. I was never careful for anything. Whatever automatically comes... I was never careful. "As the Jew, I have to save..." No, no.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupada: On First Street. The First Street was there. I was in between the First and Second Street.
Prabhupada: So First Street, Second Street, and we went to 55th. And Second Avenue, Fifth.
Prabhupada: Eighth Avenue.
Tamala Krsna: Fifty-fifth Street is midtown, middle of the... But actually that was the right place to be, because there were many young people at that time in the East Village who were searching for something.
Prabhupada: Yes. I think Mukunda selected for that.
Tamala Krsna: Just like in San Francisco, that same kind of place we got. So many young people were there, Haight Street, Haight-Ashbury. Now those two places have become ghettoes practically.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, very dangerous. No more young people moving about, no more nice shops. Simply very dangerous.
Prabhupada: Only Negroes. I was going one place to another, underground. Not bad. They used to say "Poor man's transport." Underground?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: (aside:) Who are these men? I was loitering. Yes. "Let me take this train. Let me see where it goes." Like that.
Prabhupada: Hm. I was sitting alone on the New York house.
Prabhupada: Then I heard that one crazy man was killed.
Tamala Krsna: Then you stopped going. Oh, those parks are dangerous. In New York you can't go alone.
Prabhupada: That was my morning walk. (laughs) I did not know what is morning walk.
Prabhupada: I purchased one tape recorder, some fifty dollars...
Prabhupada: I was recording.
Prabhupada: I was doing.
Prabhupada: (pause) No, typing I was doing in my own mind. Some songs I was recording. Typing not from this. That, I was seeing book, that's all.
Prabhupada: From writing I was typing. (pause) Flies are more cunning.
Prabhupada: ...material body. So as soon as there is material attraction, the village organization will not stand because the other material attraction is industry. So because he's materially attracted, he'll say that "If I do industry, I get hundred rupees. Why shall I plow for five rupees?" That simply they do not know. Gandhi's plan failed there. If materially they are after material enjoyment, so if he gets hundred rupees, he thinks that "I will enjoy more. Why shall I be sticking to the service?" Then the village program will fail. They will go for the hundred rupees. That civilization they do not know. After all, they are all rascals. They won't take lesson from us or from the Vedic culture. Therefore it is failure.
Prabhupada: No, that is... Therefore it will be a failure. We are... Just like in Hyderabad we are trying to make an ideal farm. If we can do, that will be success.
Gopala Krsna: There was recently an article. Previously there was oil shortage in the world. Now they are predicting that there is going to be a water shortage.
Prabhupada: Everything will be shortage. That is nature's arrangement. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. They cannot make any plan successful without Krsna consciousness. So long they'll insist upon this point, that "Without Krsna consciousness we shall do everything successfully..." That is durasa. As long as they persist on this, they'll remain rascals. Every plan will be failure. Durasa. Daivi hy esa gunamayi. Nature, material nature, is against them. No plan will be allowed to be... Just trace out the history. Every plan has been unsuccessful, either Eastern, Western. Napoleon made plan, Hitler made plan, Gandhi made plan. So many rascals, they made plan. Everyone's plan, impersonalist, they are unsuccessful at the end. Gandhi was killed, Napoleon was dishonored, Mussolini was killed, Hitler nowhere... Take all these big, big...
Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed. It has been unsuccessful many times. Still they'll do. When the sewer ditches will be complete? Sewer ditches?
Gopala Krsna: The sewage line? They should be completed in a month. Before the Gurukula opens, it has to be finished.
Prabhupada: (aside:) You can eat it immediately.
Prabhupada: You like it?
Prabhupada: And you did not take?
Aksayananda: I take. [break]
Prabhupada: ...I stressed in other that in India strictly maintain an institution, following Bhagavad-gita's conclusion. That we are trying to do. It is not a new invention. It is already there. If it is not possible to maintain such an institution, then human civilization will be finished. There is no hope. And it is now being effective worldwide. Why India should not maintain?
Gopala Krsna: Yes. Actually he was very praiseworthy of your efforts. He said, "I know what Prabhupada has done." If in some way Mr. Morarji Desai can be brought to you, that will be very...
Prabhupada: No, no, he's a very big lion. He will not agree to come. You don't try for.
Gopala Krsna: No, we're not trying. Just if sometimes we're in Delhi or something, if we... Like he still has a lot of good habits. He's material...
Gopala Krsna: He only eats fruits and milk, nothing else. Capati and all he doesn't eat. And he boasts that "I gave up sex life." And he reads the Gita every day. And, of course, he doesn't practice it, but... In some public speeches he has said that we should revive our Indian culture which has been lost.
Prabhupada: There is little hope.
Gopala Krsna: Of course, these politicians are little worried that if they make something very strict, like if they make it Hindu or something, then they will lose votes from the Christians and the Muslims.
Prabhupada: That is their difficulty.
Prabhupada: No, that is not possible. But there must be some ideas.
Prabhupada: Now let us go inside. (end)
Previous: Conversation, "Rascal Editors," and Morning Talk -- June 22, 1977, Vrndavana Next: Conversation: "How to Secure Brahmacaris" -- June 24, 1977, Vrndavana