Prabhupada: That they do not know. Their advancement of knowledge is so poor, that if the chemicals of the semina and ovum, by mixture, life can be generated, so why you wait for such accident? You can combine such chemicals. Why you are waiting for the accident or chance meeting? You can produce. That they cannot. Then how it is accident? Just like nowadays the ox, bull's semina is injected in the cow, artificial semination?

Jnanagamya: Yes, for cows they do that.

Prabhupada: But that semina is taken from a bull. Why not chemically prepare and inject?

Jnanagamya: Also for humans sometimes, humans also.

Prabhupada: Anyway, you have to take from another living being. Why not prepare the chemicals? Then postdated check: "Yes, we are trying. Wait millions of years." The same rascaldom. And who is preparing that chemical? You have to wait for millions of years, who is preparing that chemical now?

Nava-yauvana: Krsna.

Prabhupada: What is your answer? Who is preparing now the chemicals? You are, just like you are trying to prepare some chemical, so the chemical is already there. So somebody has prepared, you have to accept, huh? Why not?

Jnanagamya: You said once before they are spending so much money to do what has already been done. It has already been done and they are spending millions...

Prabhupada: If they are trying to prepare that chemical and asking us, "Wait millions of years." But who has prepared now?

Harikesa: Lust.

Prabhupada: No, no, that is already discussed. Don't talk foolishly.

Harikesa: No, but the original cause...

Prabhupada: Lusty desire, that is their theory, that's all. But the lusty desire is not the cause. The cause is the semina.

Harikesa: But the lusty desire is the cause of the semina.

Prabhupada: That is one of the cause, there are many causes. Remote causes, immediate causes, there are many causes.

Harikesa: But that's the original cause.

Prabhupada: What is that original cause?

Harikesa: That lust.

Prabhupada: Original for you because you are rascal. But there is another cause before that.

Harikesa: But we don't see that cause.

Prabhupada: That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are seeing simply some immediate cause. That is your poor fund of knowledge. Cause after cause, cause after cause, that is a study, a real study. If that is the cause, then you prepare that semina.

Harikesa: But we see that lust is the whole basis of this world, there's nothing beyond it.

Prabhupada: That you see because you are rascal. That is our charges against you. You see because you are rascal. You do not know, you have no sufficient knowledge. But our charge is that the lust is the..., Yes, all right, the lust is the cause and the discharge is there, so why you are waiting the discharge of a human being? Why not prepare that chemical? Where is that advancement? Why you take from a man the discharge and put into the woman, either man or animal? You prepare.

Atreya Rsi: If you take the scientist's thinking like this one step further, we see that because of this thinking they do not see, they become very confused, and then they say God is..., if there is God, He's unjust. He's not just because...

Prabhupada: That's all right. There is God, rascal. First of all, our point is this. Unjust or just, we shall see later on. First of all, you accept there is God.

Jnanagamya: They are analyzing the semina, they find DNA molecules, like this, but they cannot find the essence. They cannot understand the essence of it.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is my proposition. That is poor fund of knowledge. Still, they are trying to establish "This is the cause."

Harikesa: No, we can find, the essence is lust, because as soon as there is lust, automatically there's all these other things. So you don't have to make all these other things because automatically lust creates everything. There is no need...

Jnanagamya: But there's also lust, the scientists are lusty to create and experiment.

Prabhupada: But you cannot create such lust.

Harikesa: Oh, yes, I create it all the time.

Prabhupada: Then why there is no life?

Jnanagamya: If I am a lusty scientist then I can be lusty with a woman or I can be lusty with the test tubes and the chemicals. The lust is there, so why is there no artificial semina? The same lust is there. Desire for profit, adoration, distinction is there. So they are a failure.

Harikesa: Our proposition is nothing like this, our proposition is that lust is the creation of everything.

Prabhupada: Therefore I charge.

Atreya Rsi: So we put you in a room with a lot of lust and you create a baby.

Harikesa: No, that will happen automatically, you just, the ingredients come together automatically.

Prabhupada: Obstinate rascals. Not only rascal, but obstinate rascal. Their only remedy is shoe. That's all. Obstinacy. There is a story about obstinacy. Two friends were talking. One friend said, "This is cut by a scissor." So another friend says, "No, it is cut by the knife." So then there was fight. So the friend who was talking of the knife, he was strong enough. So he captured him: "You accept it is scissor, otherwise I'll throw you in the water." So other, "No, it is scissor," so he threw him in the water. So when he was dying, he was doing like this. (Prabhupada makes a hand motion like scissor) (laughter) So he is obstinate rascal. It is as good as that garden here. Rather, here there is no disturbance of outsiders, and there there are so many disturbances. It is better. Our theory is... Not theory, fact-daiva-netrena. These things are arranged by superior management.

Jnanagamya: Actually, Prabhupada, that lust is a perverted expression of love. Krsna is creating out of love, and in the material world it becomes perverted. So in the material world lust is the cause.

Prabhupada: Yes. In the spiritual world, what is love, that is in the material world lust.

Harikesa: Then you agree with me?

Jnanagamya: Yes, you are right, but you do not understand where that lust is coming from. That lust is perverted from Krsna.

Prabhupada: Obstinate. It is perverted reflection of love. Actually, it is... They say it is love. The sahajiyas in Vrndavana, they have got connection with woman. If you criticize them, say "Why you are connected with illicit sex?" "What is the wrong there? It is love." They say it is love.

Atreya Rsi: What is their definition of love?

Prabhupada: Rascals, they are all... These sahajiyas, you'll find most of them illiterate. Not a single of them is even literate, they are so low class. Most of them they come to Vrndavana... Why Vrndavana? There are many other places. Their aim is woman and money. Just like these swamis and yogis, they come.

Atreya Rsi: To the West.

Prabhupada: Simply the ultimate goal is women and money. You may become whatever you may become. You become a yogi, you become a babaji, you become a swami, but the ultimate goal is a woman and money. That's all. I'm feeling nice here. There is open air and grass.

Nava-yauvana: These rascals don't understand that lust also has its laws and they are under these strict laws of lust. They are thinking they are independent.

Prabhupada: No, lust... Suppose lust is... Then lust between man and woman. Then this lust will cause.

Harikesa: That's a law in physics also, "opposites attract."

Prabhupada: Yes, and who made the opposites?

Harikesa: No, that's just the natural arrangement of things.

Prabhupada: What is natural?

Atreya Rsi: Who arranged?

Harikesa: That's the complete. No, you see that's complete. Two opposite things, they're like two halves of a circle.

Prabhupada: No, why, who has made this?

Harikesa: But it's just eternally there. It's just, that's just the complete arrangement, it's everything.

Prabhupada: But eternally there, but why the body of woman is attracted to man and the man's body is attracted? Who has made it? Between man and man there is no such attraction.

Harikesa: But that's the complete arrangement. It doesn't have to have a cause.

Prabhupada: Arrangement, as soon as you mention arrangement, there is arranger.

Atreya Rsi: Arranger, who is arranger.

Prabhupada: As soon as you say arrangement.

Nava-yauvana: They say it's chemistry, but then there must be a chemist.

Harikesa: Well, it's the arrangement of the complete whole.

Prabhupada: What is that complete whole? You say arrangement. The arrangement is if there is arrangement, there is brain.

Atreya Rsi: Who is the complete whole?

Prabhupada: Arrangement is not accidental.

Nava-yauvana: They say yin and yang.

Prabhupada: I am coming here. This child can say the arrangement was there. She can say like that. But I'm adult, I know the arrangement was there. It was made by somebody.

Harikesa: Yes, but for every amount of arrangement there is a disarrangement.

Prabhupada: Disarrangement also can be... When there is arrangement, there can be disarrangement.

Harikesa: So that's a complete whole also.

Prabhupada: No, as soon as you accept arrangement, there is brain. Either you make arrangement or somebody makes.

Harikesa: So the complete whole also is brain and brainless.

Prabhupada: Brains, complete whole is purnam idam purnam adah purnat purnam udacyate. That is complete. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate [Iso Invocation]. That is beginning of Isopanisad. It is already explained, the complete. What is that complete? Complete means complete brain. That is complete. Complete means complete brain. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Because He has complete brain. Anvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah, He's complete aware of everything. Therefore there is complete arrangement. This is the definition of complete. Complete in awareness. Therefore there is complete arrangement. Purnat purnam udacyate. There is the purnat purnam udacyate. Complete arrangement comes from the complete, purnat. There is water. This water has come from a water stock. The arrangement is complete. Wherefrom the water has come? It has come from another water stock. Purnat purnam udacyate. So what you call eternal, purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate [Iso Invocation]. It is so complete that if you take out the whole complete, again it is complete. The supply is again complete. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu was requested by one devotee that, "My Lord, You have come, You take all the sinful living beings by Your mercy. And if you think that is not possible, then give all their sinful reactions unto me, I shall suffer. You take them." Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that this universe is just like a mustard seed in the bag of mustard seed. So suppose this universe is taken away. Then what about the other? (aside:) You should cover your leg.

Atreya Rsi: These arguments against atheists are very convincing, and only absolute fools can resist it, but those fools we cannot do anything with.

Prabhupada: No, no, they are, for them the argumentum ad baculum. You know argumentum ad baculum? You know? What is that.

Harikesa: That's the fourth stage in diplomatic tactics, where you hit them with a stick.

Prabhupada: That's it.

Atreya Rsi: For example...

Prabhupada: For them, argumentum ad baculum. Sanskrit is murkhasya laktosadi(?). Just like animal. Animal, if you give argument, no. When you show stick and beat him, then he'll, he'll be... Argumentum ad baculum for them.

Atreya Rsi: In Iran most people accept all our philosophy fully, but they are not willing to accept authority from Krsna because they say, well, why is... They cannot be convinced that Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead, Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Prabhupada: Then there is proof: sastra is there, sadhu is there, acarya is there, other authorities are there. Just like Arjuna said, that, quoted Vyasa, Narada, Asita, Devala, "All of them have accepted You the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and You are explaining Yourself. Therefore I have no doubt." Vyasadeva is authority, Narada is authority, and there are many others. Recently, all the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Caitanya Mahaprabhu... We are following the Caitanya cult, but He's stated yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa. He's accepting. Why does He say "Krsna"? Why does He not say others? Amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa yare dekha [Cc. Madhya 7.128], tare kaha And Krsna also, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more superior person." And Arjuna accepted, "Whatever You are saying, it is all reasonable." Sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg. 10.14]. "Whatever you have said, I accept in toto." There is no cut short, "I don't like this, I don't accept this." No, everything, sarvam etad.

Atreya Rsi: The basic difference still is that they are saying that Krsna, God, whatever you call Him, He..., the parampara system starts from Him sending a representative, and then that representative has devotees and devotees, like that. But we also say that that is true, but also there is, you could...

Prabhupada: Bring that wrapper.

Atreya Rsi: That is true, but also we could have parampara go all the way to Krsna Himself.

Prabhupada: Yes, parampara is coming from Krsna.

Nava-yauvana: In Islam they say that God cannot come to this earth.

Atreya Rsi: God would not come to this earth.

Prabhupada: God cannot speak? God cannot come. A very big man, he can come, but He cannot speak?

Atreya Rsi: They agree. He can speak and He can send representatives.

Prabhupada: Because He has spoken to Muhammad, and Muhammad has come, he is speaking the same thing. So recently... There is no need of God's coming. If Muhammad is speaking on behalf of God, then that is all right. There is no need of God's coming. This is parampara.

Atreya Rsi: That they agree. And they also agree that that parampara is lost. They agree with that because they can see there is nobody who can represent Muhammad. There is not a single person. They agree.

Prabhupada: No, that is everywhere.

Atreya Rsi: In every religion it is true.

Prabhupada: Just like these rascals, Bhagavad-gita they explain in a different way. What Krsna says, rejected. He says something else. That is the difficulty-parampara is lost.

Atreya Rsi: And the most convincing argument that Your Divine Grace is making is that we are not just talking, we are also acting. That is the big difference between our philosophy and all the others. Because there are many good philosophies, but they all finish in talk.

Prabhupada: Talking, that's all.

Atreya Rsi: Perfect philosophy, but talk.

Prabhupada: The scientists also, they are talking, but there is no practical proof. Simply talking.

Atreya Rsi: That is how we can attract people, through action.

Prabhupada: Apani acari prabhu jivera siksaya. That is the way. (child chanting in background) Just see how he's chanting, this boy, his son, he's chanting Hare Krsna. This is not joke. (all chant japa) That building is costly, but we have left that building, we have come here. And this is costlier? Nature's way of... In the room, to make us comfortable you have to run on the fan? Here we are, don't require any fan. So what is the advantage?

Hari-sauri: Well, if it rains, then we'll go back inside.

Prabhupada: And if your electricity fails, you'll go to hell. (laughter) This is no argument. That is obstinate rascal's argument. That one, they were eating yogurt. Everyone said, "Oh, very first-class, nice yogurt." Everyone was saying. So there was the obstinate rascal, he has to find out some fault. He said, "Yes, it is very nice, but if we keep it three days it will be bad." He's not thinking of the present, but he has to criticize it, that if you keep it three days it will become bad. That is all right, but what you are tasting now, talking of that. When there will be rain, you'll have to go in the roomthis is no argument. This is obstinate rascaldom. We're talking of this. If accident and this and that, then in everywhere that will... That I've already replied, if there is electricity failure, then it is...

Hari-sauri: But we have to plan for the future.

Prabhupada: Future you cannot plan. That is the foolishness. That is another obstinate rascaldom. Future is not in your hand. You cannot plan. That is going on. They are planning so many things for future, but it is being baffled. So many schemes, so many there are. Our, in India there is a planning commission, after independence. So whatever they did, all failure. All failure. And now it is chaos. That Guljanajana(?) Nanda you know? He was one of the prominent member of the planning commission. He was very important member in the central government, home member, planning commission, president and so on, so on. Nowadays he is loitering on the street, coming me to talk as ordinary man. You have seen? You were giving me massage on the roof and he was sitting?

Hari-sauri: Yes. He's just trying to make some name and fame now by becoming a pious man.

Prabhupada: So he's coming to me. He was very big man. Home member Ran Nitola(?) was president.

Hari-sauri: He was prime minister for about ten days.

Prabhupada: Yes, for a few days. He was a very prominent member in the cabinet, and now see. So planning, you make so many plans, but it requires sanction. That planning is condemned by Prahlada Maharaja. Balasya neha saranam pitarau nrsimha nartasya cagadam udanvati majjato nauh. In this way, there is a verse, that we are planning, that every parent is planning how his child will be grown nice, educated, but it becomes different. Every father, mother plan that "My child should be like this." But he is becoming hippie. When there is somebody diseased, rich man, he is planning to save him, best physician, best medicine supplied, but he's dying. So what is the value of your planning? Your planning is... That's all right. That's your duty. But it requires the sanction of some higher authority. Otherwise useless. That is your position. You may make plan, but unless it is sanctioned by the higher authority, then it is useless. That is practically going on.

Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada? This morning both of these boys would like to be initiated if you would give them your mercy.

Prabhupada: Yes, so let them...

Atreya Rsi: After the guru-puja.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: My I make some arrangements? May I go and...?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. But they should shave and have hair short cut.

Jnanagamya: Our only plan should be to put our mind on Krsna's feet.

Prabhupada: Our plan should be to accept Krsna's plan, that's all. Approved, authorized plan. That is very easy. Take any words of Krsna, it is very easy. What is your problem, first of all? Just consider, whether Krsna answers it. First of all, propose what is your problem.

Hari-sauri: Well, my problem is that I have to have somewhere to live and I have to get something to eat.

Prabhupada: Yes, that Krsna's solves. Yes, Krsna says annad bhavanti bhutani: [Bg. 3.14] produce food grains. You have to work because it is material world. You cannot sit idly. Even if you are a very strong tiger, you don't expect that animals will come and enter your mouth. You have to work for it. This is the world. Na hi suptasya simhasya pravisanti mukhe mrgah. Suppose a lion... He's the king of the forest. And if he says, "It is my order, I'll sleep here and all the animals may come in my mouth." The animals will urine on his face. "Yes, we shall pass urine on your face. We are not going to accept your order." You have to work. Practical, everyone has to work. This is the third nature. Avidya karma-sanga. Because here everyone is under ignorance, the punishment is he has to work for his living condition. Work is not very pleasing. It is very troublesome. But he has to. Avidya karma-sanga. You have to work. Therefore we see practically that countries who are working very diligently, they are materially prosperous. Europe, America, they work very diligently, hard, and they have got material prosperity. And the Eastern countries, they are not working, intelligent. From material point of view. From spiritual point of view that is another thing.

Hari-sauri: So all I have to do is just make some working arrangement.

Prabhupada: No, that work is recommended. Your question is how Krsna is giving you instruction. Just like food, Krsna says annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14]. You produce anna. Krsna never said that you produce tire tubes. Never says.

Hari-sauri: But the same example, in the West, we weren't so materially prosperous until we started industrialism. The prosperity was not there until we started our big factories.

Prabhupada: No, no. Just like in India, there was no industry at all. Until the British period, there was no industry. Not a single. Even in Muhammadan period there was no industry, and they were happy. There was no industry. The Muhammadans also did not know how to start industry. It is Western imported, larger scale industry. Cottage industry was there.

Hari-sauri: Such a high standard of living, that was not available to as many people as there is now.

Prabhupada: What is that higher standard? When there was no industry, in India, there was full of gold, jewelries. And now there is plastic.

Harikesa: Yes, but now there's TV.

Prabhupada: TV, yes.

Harikesa: How can you enjoy without TV?

Prabhupada: Yes, how can you waste your time?

Nava-yauvana: Their reason, they say, is because we have to work so hard all day, then we have to try to forget, watch the television.

Prabhupada: Why should you work? If you have to forget, why should you take such nonsense things that you have to forget again? Why not chant Hare Krsna? Even the child does not forget. He's chanting. Take such things that you'll enjoy. The more you do not forget, you more enjoy. Why should you take up something that you have to forget? This is rascal.

Nava-yauvana: Karmis cannot understand.

Prabhupada: There is a story like this. A man is sitting. His friend came, "Why you are sitting idly?" "What shall I do?" "Work." "Why shall I work?" "You'll get money." "What shall I do with the money?" "Then you'll be able to sit peacefully and eat." "I'm doing that. I'm already doing that." I'm peacefully sitting and eating. Why shall I go and work? If that is the ultimate end, that I shall peacefully sit down and eat, I am doing that. Why shall I go and work?

Harikesa: What about when it gets cold?

Prabhupada: That you again "if." You are bringing some condition. For the present time, sitting very peacefully and haven't got to work. Why you are insisting me to work? If this is the goal, to sit peacefully and eat, I'm doing that.

Hari-sauri: But I want more than that; it's boring. I want more.

Prabhupada: Boring?

Hari-sauri: It's very boring just to sit and eat all the time.

Prabhupada: No, no, that boring for the rascal. Otherwise, one who is intelligent, he's enjoying.

Harikesa: Yes, but I mean definitely it will get cold. There's no question that "maybe if." It definitely it will get cold.

Prabhupada: Cold you will get both ways, whether you work or not.

Harikesa: No, no, because when I work I have a nice house and I got a heater, then it's warm. If I didn't work I wouldn't have my heater, and it gets to be zero...

Prabhupada: And when there will be no electricity, you will be frozen.

Harikesa: Well, I have my gas heater.

Nava-yauvana: We have experience sometimes the heater breaks and there's even more anxiety.

Hari-sauri: Then there's always a coal fire as well.

Prabhupada: Such kind of argument can be counteracted by so many other argument.

Harikesa: We just see practically that we're enjoying life. We can't...

Prabhupada: Enjoy life means... Even the industrialists, they go to the remote village and have a peaceful house there. That is the anxiety, how I shall live peacefully. The poorer class, the workers, they live in the city, and the capitalist, he goes to a different place.

Jnanagamya: Vrndavana, they came to Vrndavana, those Indian industrialists. They were so nervous, always like this, "Who is here? Who is also here? Should I talk to him about business." Very nervous.

Hari-sauri: But variety is the spice of life.

Prabhupada: Variety, there are qualities of varieties. Just like we enjoy varieties prasadam, and there is variety in the brothel also. Two qualities of variety. Variety is good, that's all right.

Hari-sauri: Well, sometimes we want to sit in a garden like this and sometimes we like to be inside, and other times we like to go out to the movies.

Prabhupada: I don't go out. We do not go to the movies or to the restaurant. It is different taste. Therefore it is calculated three kinds of men-sattvika, rajasika, tamasika-their tendencies are different.

Nava-yauvana: Karmis can't understand why a devotee doesn't want to go to the cinema.

Prabhupada: So many thingsthey do not smoke, they do not drink, they do not go to cinema.

Hari-sauri: We're as good as dead. (laughs)

Prabhupada: Yes.

Harikesa: What happens with all these people who, like for example, myself, I can't live on a farm?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Harikesa: I can't live on a farm.

Prabhupada: That does not make you, what is called, unfit. You can do something like that.

Harikesa: I mean I was born in a city, raised in a city, and feel very good when I'm in a city, but when I'm on a farm, I'm very disturbed.

Prabhupada: Rajasika, you have got rajasika. So that means your mode of nature is rajasika. There are three kinds of-sattvika, rajasika, tamasika.

Harikesa: But what are we going to do with all these kind of people?

Prabhupada: That is already there, three kinds of propensities. Sattvika, rajasika, tamasika. So you belong to the rajasika, that's all. So it can be conquered by sattvika.

Hari-sauri: So we should all aim towards leaving the cities. If everyone becomes sattvika...

Prabhupada: That tendency is there, why these bungalows are here? They do not like to live in the city. They are paying so high rent. Why? The inner tendency is to live like this, with trees, with lawn. (to passerby:) Hare Krsna, thank you. (end)