Prabhupada: English, economics, philosophy or..., mostly Scottish... I was educated in Scottish Churches College. The philosophy professor, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he was very friendly to me, very kind, just like father. [break] ...he became vice chancellor. He was a very learned man, and very nice man, W. S. Urquhart.

Pusta Krsna: Did they teach in English or Bengali?

Prabhupada: No, no. English. Medium English.

Harikesa: He was the one who said that the woman's brain is thirty-six ounces?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. (chuckles) Yes. No, not only he, another professor, Dr. Stephen (indistinct), he also said. That's a fact. Artificially they are trying. It has no meaning. But by agitation you can do anything. That is another thing. But that is not the fact. Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. These are all Indian quarters? No.

Pusta Krsna: This area? No, I think this is more European. But where we're staying is Indian area. It's all Indian.

Prabhupada: These European professors, they had to learn Bengali. They knew Bengali. It was compulsory. All European officers who used to come to India for responsible post, it was obligated.

Pusta Krsna: Did they come mostly for missionary work? Was that their purpose?

Prabhupada: Our professors, they came from missionary, but there were other officers in government service, I.C.S., Indian Civil Service. They were also. In the province where they were employed he must learn the provincial language. Their administration was excellent, undoubtedly, British administration. Nobody in the world, so far administration... But their crooked policy ruined them; otherwise good administrator, good politician, good diplomat.

Harikesa: They made those nice buildings in Delhi, too.

Prabhupada: Huh? Yes, and everything good. Simply heart was not very good.

Pusta Krsna: Heart.

Prabhupada: "Only for Englishmen," "Only for Englishmen." Still that policy is going on here. That is not good. When one takes shelter of you, you must give him proper protection. That liberality is not there.

Pusta Krsna: They would make the people dependent upon them and then exploit them, yes?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the fault. Exploitation was their policy. Whole European, the France, Hollandgo some other country and exploit. They were doing the same thing in America also. Therefore America rebelled. Washington was Englishman. Still, he rebelled. He separated. Independent. A small country and bring money from the whole worldthis is their bad policy.

Pusta Krsna: It's actually amazing how they colonized.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusta Krsna: It was actually amazing to think how they colonized almost...

Prabhupada: They were obliged to do that. In the country there is no food, no shelter, nothing. Therefore Hitler's determination was, "I shall make this shopkeeper nation again fishers." What is called? Fishermen. "I shall ruin their empire." So he did it. But he also became ruined. He did it. He ruined the Englishmen, but he also became ruined, finished, Germany finished. But Germany will be able to rise again. Englishmen will not be able to.

Pusta Krsna: Why is that, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: They committed so many sinful activities, yes, for maintaining their empire. To sell their Manchester-made cloth they ruined the cloth industry of India and cut this finger.

Pusta Krsna: Cut the thumb off.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thumbs of the weavers so that they cannot manufacture anymore.

Pusta Krsna: Very bad.

Prabhupada: There are so many other things.

Harikesa: They cut the thumbs of the weavers?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: Yes. They were making finer cloth by hand than the British were making by machines. So in order to discourage, they would cut off the thumb so they couldn't weave.

Prabhupada: So many things. And to make a show, the Lord Hasting was impeached in the Parliament. Here the black men, they are Africans.

Pusta Krsna: Yes. In this country there's nineteen million Africans and about over five million Europeans, about one million Indian people, and about one million colored people.

Prabhupada: So these women, what they are carrying on the head?

Pusta Krsna: I don't know. What do they carry, Gokulendra prabhu?

Gokulendra: They carry all sorts of things, Srila Prabhupada. Sometimes they carry their supplies that they...

Prabhupada: They are local women or...

Pusta Krsna: Oh, yes. But they don't allow the Africans to live in the cities. They have to travel long distances, unless they are servants at some house. For the Africans to live in the cities, they have passes. They have to have a pass.

Prabhupada: Accha. Black men. The Indians, they cannot? They can?

Pusta Krsna: No, Indians don't need pass. The Indians, however, they were only allowed to live where they were born. They aren't allowed to move around. But this year they finished that law. Now the Indians can live anywhere in South Africa in Indian areas. They can move around to different cities. Before this year they weren't allowed to do it.

Prabhupada: So post... [break] ...service is not good?

Pusta Krsna: No, it is fairly good. But the Africans, they are so many they have to queue up. I don't think, in America, that the American negroes would be able to queue up and wait as patiently as these people. I think they have a little...

Prabhupada: They have been trained up.

Pusta Krsna: British influence. [break]

Prabhupada: ...appears it is very clean city.

Pusta Krsna: This area is downtown, it's not so clean. Downtown is not so clean. This area is.

Prabhupada: This is residential or industrial?

Pusta Krsna: Over here is all residential, European apartment houses. And along the beach there is all hotels. This is a very big resort area in South Africa. There's a... Whole south coast, going down for about eighty miles, is all resorts. [break]

Prabhupada: ...English-made city?

Pusta Krsna: Yes, Durban is English city. Capetown has Dutch influence.

Prabhupada: It resembles Melbourne. Melbourne. Australian Melbourne, this quarter resembles. [break] ...from Indian Ocean?

Pusta Krsna: Yes. Indian Ocean.

Prabhupada: Africa, one side Atlantic, one side Indian. [break] ...is growing on the sand, and they say there is no life in the sand. (breakwindy beach) ...Bhoga. Bhoga means sense gratification, and aisvarya, opulence. Bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam tayapahrta-cetasam: [Bg. 2.44] "Those who are lost of consciousness, such persons become attached to sense gratification and material opulence," bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam tayapahrta-cetasam, "and not interested in Krsna consciousness." Vyavasayatmika-buddhih: "How to become spiritually liberated, they do not care for it." These things do not interest them.

Pusta Krsna: We're finding that most of our devotees, though, are coming from America. America is the most opulent place.

Prabhupada: No, no, not most coming. Some coming. The American population is very great. If most would have come, then things would have been different.

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: Some of the fortunate persons like you, you are coming. Kona, kona, "some fortunate." Kona bhagyavan jiva. But you can convert them to become fortunate. Devotee can do that. Bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam tayapahrta-cetasam. They are thinking very much advanced, but they are lost of their sense, lost of their intelligence. They think of us as foolish. We do not enjoy life. (laughter) And we think of them as animals. This is the position. Bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam.

"Those who are spiritually fixed up, their determination is one, and those who are not fixed up, their mind is diverted in so many things, unnecessary things." [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...vadis have given the philosophy that "Yes, vyavasayatmika-buddhir ekeha, make the intelligence one, but you can think of anything. You can think of a rock, you can think of the sky."

Prabhupada: You rascal. Anything... Anything one. So if I think of hell, will that do?

Pusta Krsna: Well, the Mayavadi says, "Anything is as good as anything else."

Prabhupada: Yes. How rascal they are. Anything else... This is Ramakrishna Mission's. They are rascals. These rascals, they do not know anything, and still, they have made a missionary activity.

Pusta Krsna: I have read one Mayavadi. He says that it's as good to meditate on your wife as it is to meditate on Krsna.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Pusta Krsna: I read that, really. So degraded.

Prabhupada: Then why do you take sannyasa? Think of your wife at home. Why do you take sannyasa? Just see how rascal they are.

Pusta Krsna: They have gone against all the Vedic principles.

Prabhupada: Remain at home; think of your wife. Everyone is doing that. Then why do you take sannyasa and cheat others? Mayavadam asac-chastram. Asat, it is very abominable philosophy. [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...is about twenty miles up this coast.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Pusta Krsna: The house that I was telling you about, the other house, is twenty miles up this coast.

Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...only on Krsna. Otherwise all these Mayavadis would have disturbed us. They got... This man says this, this man says this... We kick out all these things. Only what Krsna says, that's all. Asac-chastram pracchannam bauddham ucyate. You can take.

Harikesa: (whispers:) Sit in the back. [break]

Gokulendra: Yesterday, on Saturday morning, we had the first sankirtana in the European area, chanting.

Pusta Krsna: Praison? (?)

Gokulendra: Yes. The police stopped us after about half an hour.

Pusta Krsna: They went into the European area yesterday for chanting, Saturday morning. Usually we do the Indian area in Durban. But in Johannesburg we only do the European area sankirtana. We have no trouble there. They say that Durban, being very much... Did the truck go? Yes? Why doesn't Prabhupada go back in the truck?

Devotee: It's stuck in the sand. We'll have to push to make the wheels straight.

Pusta Krsna: So let Prabhupada come back in the truck. [break]

Prabhupada: ...have gone too much in the sand. It is dangerous. [break] ...panded so much, these Britishers, a few million people. This is demonic. Idam adya maya labdham imam prapsye manoratham: "I have got now so much. Now let me increase more." Never satisfied. Idam adya maya labdham imam prapsye mano: "I want to be the richest man, God." That was the British policy-ambition. Material ambition is like that. It increases more and more. [break] ...British buildings or American?

Pusta Krsna: South African.

Prabhupada: South African.

Pusta Krsna: A lot of investment comes from both America and England, industries.

Prabhupada: So England has got money to invest still?

Pusta Krsna: Yes. They do much investment here in South Africa. [break] Srila Prabhupada, there's a sidewalk here. Would you prefer walking on the sidewalk or the sands?

Prabhupada: Yes, sidewalk is better.

Pusta Krsna: Okay. A little bit hard on the...

Harikesa: Did we pass by a park when we were coming?

Pusta Krsna: We will check out some places today. [break] ...cold spell now.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusta Krsna: A cold spell. It's been cold the last few days. [break]

Prabhupada: ...keepers are mostly Indians?

Pusta Krsna: Indian. All here are Indian. And just the other side of the bridge, all is Indian. This building here, Prabhupada, this big building is built by one of our life members. All of our life members, they are competing who can build bigger building.

Prabhupada: Accha. (laughing)

Pusta Krsna: And they are putting nightclubs on the top of their buildings. So foolish.

Prabhupada: Lakhani. This is Indian building.

Pusta Krsna: These are life members.

Prabhupada: Lakhani.

Pusta Krsna: P. V. Lakhani. He was there last night.

Prabhupada: So they are improving in the midst of obstacles, eh? The Indians?

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: They are not given good facilities. Still, they are improving. [break] ...is there in your stock?

Harikesa: Chewra is.

Prabhupada: Chewra is there.

Pusta Krsna: Chewra also we can purchase.

Harikesa: Yesterday that puffed rice was Rice Krispies, cereal.

Prabhupada: That was nice.

Pusta Krsna: You like with peas?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: Peanuts?

Prabhupada: Not peas, that green... Yes, green peas.

Pusta Krsna: Fried.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like yesterday. That's nice. Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. [break] ...things without Krsna consciousness is dead body. Apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. It may be captivating to the foolish men, but it has no value. Because the person who is engaged in these things, he does not know what is the value of life, what is the goal of life. He is wasting time. The house will remain as it is; he will go to hell. That he does not know.

The nature's law is different. That is acting in a different way, which you do not know. He is forcing you to become old. He is forcing you to die. Still, you do not know how much you are under the grip of the laws of nature. Such a foolish man, and you are engaged in building skyscraper. Just see. He does not take care that "I am being forced to become something against my will, and I am freely doing all this nonsense." Just like the dog. Dog is thinking, "I am free," running here and there. As soon as the master, "Come on." (laughter) Just see. Even dog has no sense that "I was jumping like free, but I am not free." That sense he hasn't got. So if a human being has not so such sense, what is the difference between him and the dog? Hm? This is to be considered. But they have no sense, no brain, no education, and they are still going on as civilized. Just see. Mudha. Therefore mudho ('yam) nabhijanati [Bg. 7.25].

Pusta Krsna: They think that this is the most civilized that human beings have ever been, this modern so-called civilization.

Prabhupada: Civilization... If you remain in a dog's position, is that civilization? I proved that you are in a dog's position. How can you refute the argument which I have put, that you are in a dog's position? Exactly the dog. Sva-vid-varaha. Dog's position, hog's position, camel's position, and ass's position. These four animals have been compared. Sva, vid-varaha, ustra, khara. And "I have been given vote." Yes, sva-vi-varahostra-kharai samstuta purusa pasuh. You are animal, and other animals, they are giving you vote. That's all. You are very much proud that you are minister, you have got vote, but who has given you vote? The same animal class. What is the meaning of your vote? Sva-vid... How selected words in the Bhagavatam. Sva-vi-varahostra-kharai samstuta purusa pasuh.

Pusta Krsna: This desire to accumulate money, is this just like annamaya stage?

Prabhupada: That is doggish. The example, he has got already one loaf, but another dog: "This is also my stock." Why you should hanker after another? You have got already. Be satisfied. "No." That is doggish mentality. (end)