May 15, 1975, Perth
Prabhupada: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law, and what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization: they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13], one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. They are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering. In a forlorn place he stand up for five thousand years and tolerate all the blast, wind, scorching heat, water.
He doesn't know that "I may become a tree like this." Then he must be... Why there are varieties of life? This is different type of punishment for different kinds of sinful activities. And he doesn't care for sinful activities. He got the human form of body, he doesn't care. Saintly persons, they are coming as Caitanya Mahaprabhu or Buddha or Christ. They are warning, "You do not do this." No, they will do it. So who is responsible for his sufferings? He is responsible. And so long he has got this short duration of life, fifty or sixty years or utmost hundred years, he is thinking, "I am free. Whatever I want, I can do," and making life risky. Ahankara-vimudhatma. He is not independent. He knows that. Still, he will declare independence and suffer. This is the position. He is not independent; that he knows very well. But still, he will act independently. Is it not the position? Who can think that he is independent unless he is a madman? Hmm? Are you independent?
Devotee (1): No.
Prabhupada: Nobody is independent. And still, everyone is thinking independent, "I can do anything I like." Yesterday morning we were talking. You are independent. That is, means, misuse of independence. Just like in a state every citizen is independent but dependent on the state laws. If he forgets that, that "I am not dependent on the state laws," then he is foolish. Similarly, if one does not know that "The nature's law is the God's law, state laws; I cannot violate it," (sic:) then he is sober. Dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. One man is dying. A dhira knows that he is changing his body; he is not dying. He will get another body. Dhira, sober. And one who is not sober, he says, "No, life is finished." Or he can imagine he is going to heaven or hell. But a dhira knows what is going to happen to him. If he was in the material modes of nature, goodness, then he is going to higher planetary system. Urdhvam gacchanti. From sastra we can understand. If he is in passion, then he will stay in this material world.
And if he is in ignorance, then he is going to be animal. Dhiras tatra na muhyati. He knows. So he understood what is meant by first-class men?
Amogha: He seemed to understand a lot. I don't know if he could understand completely, but...
Prabhupada: No...
Paramahamsa: As he walked out the door he said, "Now I have to go back and lead my fourth-class life." (laughter)
Amogha: Yes, he said that.
Prabhupada: (laughing) Then he has understood. Yes, it is all fourth-class men. He is considered a first-class man in the society. We say to him that "You are a fourth-class man." On what strength we can say like that? And he has to admit. That is our philosophy. Any first-class man, so-called first-class man, we can also say that "You are a fourth-class man," and he will agree. And if he admits, then he becomes first-class man. Then he can make progress. "I am living, a fourth-class man. I must be a first-class man." That is knowledge. So he was asking you, "Are you living first-class now?"
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupada: What was his question?
Paramahamsa: In the room?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Yes, he said, "Are you all becoming first-class men? You want to become first-class men?" Before he left he said it was very nice meeting... And he looked and he said, "It's nice meeting you all."
Prabhupada: So we are trying to make some first-class men. That's all. This is our aim. Even if he is fourth-class man, it doesn't matter. If he takes up the training, he becomes first class. And as soon as he becomes a first-class man, urdhvam gacchanti, even if he is not liberated, he goes in higher planetary system amongst the demigods. Then there he gets more advanced. He goes to Brahma. If he is not directly transferred to the spiritual world, then he gets these facilities. And with Brahma, at the end of this creation, annihilation, they go to the spiritual world.
Devotee (1): Just by becoming first-class men.
Prabhupada: That is described. Samo damas titiksa, that... You were not here, hearing? That is first class.
Devotee (1): So just by becoming first-class men you can go to the heavenly planets?
Prabhupada: Yes. But that is meant for a first-class man. Urdhvam gacchanti. Urdhvam means higher planetary system.
Devotee (1): Are we not training all classes of men? In Krsna consciousness...
Prabhupada: We can train any class to become first class. It is simply by education. Just like anyone can become engineer by training. Where is the difficulty? Nobody is born first class, but we can make first class if he agrees to become first class. Two things required: he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class. Where is the difficulty?
Devotee (1): But you say, Srila Prabhupada, that the four classes are necessary.
Prabhupada: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years.
Amogha: Hmm. A very high position also. CSIRM. Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organization. He's commissioned by the government. They have to be very top intellectual researcher.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Amogha: And he is in a good position materially.
Devotee (1): You spoke to three of those men in Melbourne last time.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Amogha: Those scientists who came to see you last year in Melbourne were also from that organization.
Devotee (1): The same place.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Amogha: There were three men and you made them eat the gulabjammon.
Prabhupada: Ah, ah. He was there?
Amogha: No, no. But they were from the same organization, the Melbourne branch.
Prabhupada: Oh. The same scientists came.
Amogha: Yes. They were from the same...
Prabhupada: Oh, he remembers. Then that man remembers, I gave him gulabjammon.
Amogha: No, not this man.
Prabhupada: That other man.
Amogha: Oh, yes. He sure did. That's a all-over Australia organization.
Prabhupada: Good organization.
Devotee (1): They are inquisitive because they come to see you.
Prabhupada: Oh. Oh, you did not invite him?
Amogha: Yes, but he would not come unless he was interested.
Prabhupada: In the modern society there is no idea of first-class man, what is first-class man. They take it, a minister is first-class man. A first-class man is by these qualities: samo damas titiksa. It is not by the fat salary. By the first-class qualities.
Amogha: Some people, like this man, they notice that qualities are degrading and natural resources are degrading, so many problems are coming. But they don't know what to do. They're simply reporting that "There we go down."
Prabhupada: They cannot counteract. The counteraction is here in our society. They should accept it. Then it will be all right. So become first-class man. Everyone will hear you. And you can face any so-called first-class man and talk with him straightforward that "You are fourth class." (laughter) (devotees offer obeisances) (end)

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