Morning Walk – May 27, 1974, Rome

Prabhupada: So we can discuss some of the problems, about the problems. Discuss what are the problems.

Bhagavan: Now? We shall discuss now?

Prabhupada: Yes. We are going to solve all problems. Let us have some preliminary discussions how we are going to solve.

Bhagavan: The biggest problem now is that they have built up a type of society in which their needs are all coming from petrol energy. To produce what they need today is all coming from this petrol energy...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Bhagavan: ...which is..., which they are importing basically from the Saudi Arabian countries.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: Now, recently, in the last war in the Middle East, Saudi Arabians raised the price of the oil over double now, I think, as a pressure to the Western countries to do things in their favor. Now they realized that the market for oil is in such great demand that they don't have to lower the price after the war, but they are going to keep the price. And actually, the price is still increasing. So this is causing inflation.

Prabhupada: So this problem will be solved as soon as we are localized. Petrol is required for transport, but if you are localized, there is no question of transport; you don't require petrol. Suppose in New Vrindavan we stay, we don't go anywhere. Then where is the need of petrol?

Bhagavan: Petrol they also use for heating and electricity.

Prabhupada: No, heating..., heating we can do by wood, by nature.

Dhananjaya: I remember, [indistinct] Prabhupada, you were saying that all you require is some oxen, and the oxen can carry.

Prabhupada: Yes. The oxen will problem..., will solve the problem of transport. That bullock cart. Just like Krsna, when He was transferred from Gokula to Nandagrama, so they took all the bullock carts, and within a few hours they transported them, the whole thing, their luggage, family member, everything.

Bhagavan: How far can a bullock cart travel in one day?

Prabhupada: At least ten miles, very easily, very easily. And maximum he can travel fifteen miles, twenty miles. But when we are localized, we don't require to go beyond ten miles, five miles. Because we have created a rubbish civilization, therefore one is required to go fifty miles for earning bread, hundred miles, hanging.

Dhananjaya: Like in Los Angeles.

Prabhupada: Why Los Angeles? Everywhere. In New York they are coming from hundred miles, from the other side of the island. First ferry steamer, then bus, then so on, so on. Three hours, four hours they spend for transport.

Satsvarupa: Is this an ideal solution or a practical one?

Prabhupada: This is practical.

Satsvarupa: Because sometimes we say that actually we cannot change the course of the...

Prabhupada: No, no. Our Society will be ideal by practical application.

Satsvarupa: If we stopped all the transportation industry, there would be huge unemployment. It would be a great...

Prabhupada: No, no, we are not going to stop employment. We live like this. You see. "If you like, you live like us."

Bhagavan: Example.

Prabhupada: Example.

Satsvarupa: Not that we're going to dictate to the... Not that we are going to force everyone.

Prabhupada: No, we are not going to force anyone.

Bhagavan: We just show.

Prabhupada: "Our mode of living is like this. If you like, you can adopt." Just like we chant Hare Krsna mantra. So we are not forcing anyone that "You also, you must chant." No. We live like this.

Dhananjaya: So in fact, Srila Prabhupada, we should start using bullock carts.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, first of all you start the community project, as we have already started in New Vrindavan. Make this perfect.

Devotee: Was a meeting of scientists in Sweden, Stockholm.

Bhagavan: Let's discuss this problem.

Devotee: Was a big meeting of scientists in Stockholm, Sweden, and they talked that if the humanity don't begin to live in a localized way like you say, in fifty years will be no more source of production.

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. We can produce from anywhere foodstuff.

Bhagavan: What about the question of using petrol for heat? Another import... There is three uses of petrol, well four. One is the transportation, one is heat, another is electricity, and a fourth is they use it to manufacture so many products. So what if someone asks...

Prabhupada: No, you go on products, with your product. You have created problem; you go on with your problem. But we live like this. If you like, you can adopt.

Bhagavan: What is our solution to heat? Wood?

Prabhupada: Heat? Yes, wood. Sufficient.

Dhananjaya: But they are saying they used all the wood for paper, so there's no more wood.

Prabhupada: No, no. Paper you can make from grass, from cotton, so many other fibers. You don't require wood. You grow grass, sufficient quantity, and you make paper. Why should you publish so many rubbish literatures? Just like you were telling the, Times of India, the newspaper...

[sound of cars passing close by]

This is the difficulty, walking on the street. Therefore I wanted to go to the park. This is disturbance.

Bhagavan: [aside:] Prabhupada likes the park better [indistinct].

Prabhupada: So paper, if we don't produce unnecessary paper, there is no scarcity. From grass. You produce grass, huge quantity of grass, you will get paper. Cotton.

Bhagavan: Cotton?

Prabhupada: Cotton also. First-class paper. In India also, the rejected paper... From rejected paper you can get another paper also. But they throw it away in your country. Collect this rejected paper and again put it into paper. And why should you publish all rubbish literature? Simply publish Bhagavata and Bhagavad-gita, that's all. What is the use of this newspaper, nonsense newspaper, huge, huge quantity? So everything will be nice, provided you become ideal. Live in community. Produce your own food. Even you can produce your own paper. You don't require printing of so many books. If there is one book, others can imitate, or copy. There is no need of printing. Formerly they used to do that. Here is the...

Bhagavan: [a lot of noise from cars] Would you like to go in the park? Do you want us to bring the car?

Prabhupada: Now?

Bhagavan: I didn't understand that, Prabhupada, about one book.

Prabhupada: One book... Suppose we have prepared some small quantity of paper. So you can, if you want that book, you just copy another book.

Bhagavan: By hand.

Prabhupada: Yes. There is no need of printing books.

Bhagavan: Some people would be engaged in copying books.

Prabhupada: No, you engage yourself. If you want book, that book, you copy yourself. Why someone should be engaged for you? You have got enough time. You are not going to the factory or hundred miles for your earning livelihood. You are on the local space. You have got enough time. You just take, copy, that's all. Minimize your unnecessary waste of time. Save time. Chant Hare Krsna, go back to home. This is our idea. Instead of chanting twenty-five rounds, you chant hundred rounds. That is utilization of proper time. Instead of begetting cats and dogs, you just beget one child, Krsna conscious. This is the ideal life. What is the use of using sex life unnecessarily? Therefore only for begetting nice child one should have sex life. This is ideal life. Not that you use sex life, contraceptive method. This is all demonism. But they cannot do without it. Because they have no other engagement, they do not know how nice Krsna is and how pleasurable it is to reciprocate with Krsna; therefore they go to the dog's pleasure, sex life on the street and there, on the beach. That's all. They have been educated like dogs. Therefore they want it.

Bhagavan: There is one United Nations report that very soon venereal disease will reach epidemic proportions all over the world.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is already. Some fifty years ago... You know that Dr. Ghosh?

Bhagavan: Yes.

Prabhupada: He told me that when he was student, so one professor, Colonel Megar, he described in the classroom-he is Englishman-that "In our country, 75% of the students, they are infected with venereal disease." So Dr. Ghosh, as a student, "Oh, it is horrible." So he replied, "Why do you say 'horrible'? It is disease. In your country, 90% people are infected with malarial disease. So as a medical practitioner, you should not say that this disease is horrible; that disease is very nice. You cannot say that." That was between them. So this venereal disease, fifty years ago we heard that 75% of students are infected. Now they are advanced; cent per cent must be.

Yogesvara: There was a report in the New York Times that last year alone in the United States there were over 300,000 abortions, and more than two-thirds were performed on girls under twenty years of age.

Prabhupada: Yes, this is civilization. Poor girls, they are victims. These rascals are enjoying without any responsibility of marriage. And sex impulse is very strong between thirteen years up to thirty years. So people take advantage of it, and the poor girls become victim. So many anomalies. This is a doggish, demonic civilization. This is not civilization at all. They are not interested. They do not know what is the aim of life. First mistake is that "I am this body." This is doggish. Just like the dog is barking. He is thinking, "I am a big dog here. Don't come." Similarly, if a man thinks, "I am a big American," "I am big Englishman," then what is the difference? The dog is also thinking like that. And Vedic civilization, "No, you are neither dog nor human being. Aham brahmasmi: I am spirit soul." This is Vedic civilization. One is being trained up to understand this philosophy, that "I do not belong to this any material condition. I am Brahman, part and parcel of Krsna." Where is that conception?

Bhagavan: Now they have... The other day in the paper that India exploded its first nuclear bomb.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bhagavan: That India exploded its first atomic bomb.

Prabhupada: Yes, and therefore yet it has become very great. [laughs]

Yogesvara: Now it's in the top six.

Prabhupada: But there is no food. Never mind you starve, but get your atom bomb. That's all. This is civilization. There was a cartoon. Somebody approached some politician, and he said, "Yes, I know there is food problem. So I cannot say what can I do for you, but from next week, you will have television." This is their program: "From next week you will have television." Just see. As if television will minimize my hunger, appetite. This is the civilization. Hare Krsna. So you ask problem, I will answer. Your energy, problems of energy, petrol, it will be automatically solved. If we are localized, there is no question of petrol.

Bhagavan: You say in the..., I think it's in the Second Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, that by doing so much drilling into the earth, they actually disturbed the rotation of the earth.

Devotee: What they do, Srila Prabhupada, is take the petrol out and put salt water, because they know there can be a disbalance. And then they put salt water in the holes.

Prabhupada: But water cannot produce gas. Petrol produces gas. Maybe due to that gas it is floating. Because we have got practical experience, when there is gas, you can float anything.

Dhananjaya: Like a balloon.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: There is another big problem that now all the opposing countries have built up excess amounts of atomic weapons all pointed at each other. So now they are trying to have big planning conference how to diminish all these weapons.

Prabhupada: Ah. If there is no opposite element, there is no need of weapons. If I am not your enemy, there is no fear. We are preaching this philosophy, brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg 18.54]:

"As soon as you become Krsna conscious, you become jubilant." So where is your enemy? Samah sarvesu bhutesu. Then where is your enemy? Formerly, a man might have become enemy of another man. But this demonic civilization has created nation to nation, country to country, community to community, all enemies. And on account of this communistic enemy, so many innocent people are killed. I have seen in Calcutta during the partition days, so many innocent Hindus and Muslims were killed. Any [indistinct], very quickly this communistic feeling is aroused, and they fight like cats and dogs. "Oh, here is another dog! Here is another dog, coming from another neighborhood." So this is demonic civilization. If you want to go to some country, you have to take visa, permission, this, that, so many. Why? Vedic civilization is, "You are come to my country. Welcome. You are my guest." Grhe satrum api praptam visvastam akuto-bhayam: "Even one is enemy, when he comes to my house, he is my honorable guest." And here, they are so much afraid that you keep dogs. The dog is kept there. [loud truck noise]

Bhagavan: Prabhupada, I think we better go somewhere else. There is too many cars here.

Prabhupada: Yes, this isn't a place for walking. [break]

Yogesvara: ...all the major nations of the world have... These atomic weapons constitute very great storehouses for them. So what should they do with all of these things?

Prabhupada: They should throw. I throw upon you, you throw upon me; you go to hell, I go to hell. That's all. This will be the result. And the world will be cleansed of these all rascals. This will be the result. [laughs]

Bhagavan: In the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, you say that even the atomic bomb can be used in Krsna's service.

Prabhupada: It will be used by nature. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg 3.27]. He is thinking that "I am proprietor of this atomic bomb," but he does not know that "The other's atomic bomb will kill me, and my atomic bomb, I kill him." That's all. He does not know that. He is thinking, "I am very proud of possessing." But that will be the cause of his death.

Yogesvara: Is such an atomic war foretold in Bhagavatam?

Prabhupada: Yes. Next war means atomic war. All these rascals will be killed automatically. I will kill you, you'll kill me. That's all.

Yogesvara: Is that war to occur in the recent future? Or is that a long way off?

Prabhupada: Very recent. Very recent future. This Communist and capitalist mentality will bring the next... The Communists will be victorious.

Dhananjaya: And after the war, what will be the result?

Prabhupada: After the war they will come to sense. The Communist problem... Communist is not a problem. It is good proposal, but they are missing one point. They are making Lenin the leader. If they make Krsna the leader, then the communistic idea will be very fruitful. They are picking up a rascal leader, but if they pick up the nice leader, God, the supreme dictator, then everything is all right. They are catching up a dictator, but they do not know that he is rascal number one. But if he catches the Supreme Lord as dictator, as Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66], then he will be happy, immediately. Keep amongst yourself and produce. Produce food grain, produce cotton, mustard seed. Self-dependent, no use... And we don't require motorcar. Bullock cart is sufficient. There is no need of going anywhere.

Bhagavan: We can make our own cloth?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: Khadi.

Prabhupada: Cotton. From cotton you can make your own cloth.

Dhananjaya: My wife knows how to spin cloth.

Prabhupada: Yes. By spinning thread, then you make cloth-without any price. You grow your cotton and have your cloth. So by machine, they have created so many idle brain, and therefore hippies are coming out, problem. This is the result of this situation. Because they have created this machine, not everyone is employed, so he must become a hippie. Idle brain is a devil's workshop.

Bhagavan: Even the older generation, even the fathers, they are becoming...

Prabhupada: Anyone who hasn't got sufficient to work, to be employed or engaged, then he must become hippie, vagabond. What is this? Temple?

Dhananjaya: This is Mary, the...

Yogesvara: The Virgin Mary.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is just like India. They also make some small temple like this.

Yogesvara: Mahatma Gandhi formulated many such programs for producing khadi, for cow protection and so on.

Prabhupada: No, he did not make any cow protection.

Yogesvara: No? We know from your teachings that he was missing the point.

Prabhupada: Missing... The point is God. He was atheist. He did not believe in Krsna.

Yogesvara: But from the level of application of his programs, is there some value?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is good program, to produce your own necessities of life. That is good idea. But he could not turn the people, because they are godless. Godless man cannot have any good qualification. I requested him to become God conscious and preach Krsna consciousness. He thought it ludicrous. Yes. He was such a godless man.

Yogesvara: All Indians worship Gandhi.

Prabhupada: Then how he was killed? That is the proof. [laugh] Otherwise, how was he killed?

Yogesvara: Every place we go, we see Indians' homes, pictures of Gandhi on their tables.

Prabhupada: You, you have not visited everyone's house here. The three, four house you have visited, that's all.

Bhagavan: You haven't even been to India. [laughter]

Prabhupada: Don't talk all this nonsense.

Bhagavan: We can keep horses? We can use horses?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, that is ksatriya. If one does not obey the social structure, he must be forced. That is the idea of slaves. The sudras who do not work properly, he must be forced. Nobody should remain unemployed. The sudras are inclined. If he has got something to eat, he will not work. You see? Then again he will work when his need, eating. This is sudra mentality.

Bhagavan: So they have to be kept employed.

Prabhupada: Yes. They have to be... They should not possess, so that they will work always.

Yogesvara: Yeah, but that was exactly the situation that sparked the Communist revolution. When the workers felt themselves exploited, then they revolted.

Prabhupada: No, workers, what is that? Exploited?

Yogesvara: Yes, when the sudras were seeing that "Oh, these men, they are keeping us as slaves, and they are making us work just for our food," then they revolted.

Prabhupada: No, no. You should keep them such nicely and friendly way, they will never think like that. They will think that you are giving him food and shelter, and we are taking care, giving them protection to their family. Then they will be happy. Then they are happy. When you give them all protection, then they will be happy. Now... Just like in Japan. The industrialists give all men. They give food. They give education. They give shelter. So they work very happily.

Bhagavan: They like to work.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: It's not that people like to be idle.

Prabhupada: I have seen. And the Dai Nippon directors, they live very poorly, but still, they do not like to give up the service, because they are assured of their family protection, medicine, food, education. So they did not like... Never mind it is not very luxurious. Still, they stick. That I have seen.

Yogesvara: Because there are good benefits.

Prabhupada: Good benefits, yes. If you are assured of your food, shelter and necessities of life, then you will never grudge. That was the system.

Yogesvara: Yeah, that's the difference. The Communists, they were thinking themselves exploited. Actually they were fearful, because they were thinking they would not get enough to eat. They wouldn't have enough protection.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, not only that. The Communists... Everyone has got different propensity. And I have seen in Moscow, you cannot get foodstuff to your selection. That is forced. If I go to the market, I can purchase to my taste, to my selection. But if I have to purchase from the government store whatever nonsense thing they will supply, I will have to accept it. Why? I want to eat something today. Why I will be forced to eat something else?

Bhagavan: That's not good?

Prabhupada: That's not good.

Bhagavan: So in our community, when we grow things, or we have need of someone's services, how are these services distributed equally? Let's say we grow cauliflower, we grow peas, we grow wheat. Each family... Is it that each family must be responsible and take only what he needs? How is it distributed?

Prabhupada: No, no. These varieties... Suppose you grow half a dozen different types of vegetable. So from this half a dozen you can make three dozen varieties, if you are a good cooker. So the varieties of enjoyment will be fulfilled. We have got some desire of different quality of varieties. That you can make. From milk, vegetable, grains, the three things, you can make three hundred varieties.

Bhagavan: But my question is, if the community produces... Some class of men produce vegetables and grains, some class produce cows, some class produce clothes, some class produce necessities for building. How are these things distributed equally?

Prabhupada: Because we are community, we shall distribute whatever necessity for everyone.

Bhagavan: They will come and say, "I need this much cloth, I need this much milk."

Prabhupada: No, this much cloth... But if you become Krsna conscious, then you will be satisfied with the minimum necessities of life. That is natural. You won't demand.

Yogesvara: So actually such a program can only be successful proportionately with the rise of Krsna consciousness of the people.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the main basic principle. Without being Krsna conscious, if you arrange like this, that will never be successful.

Yogesvara: They won't be satisfied.

Prabhupada: No.

Bhagavan: The ksatriyas make sure that people are correct?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bhagavan: The ksatriyas make sure that people are acting correctly, that no one is taking more than what they need?

Prabhupada: Naturally he will do. If you make him Krsna conscious, if he attends the Krsna conscious program, naturally he will do. Svamin krtartho 'smi [Cc Madhya 22.42]. That is the progress of Krsna consciousness. He will be satisfied in any condition of life. That is progress of Krsna consciousness. He doesn't require anything artificially. His main necessity is how to become Krsna conscious. So if his attention is diverted in that way, these things will be not important.

Yogesvara: So then we should begin our communities, our rural communities like New Vrindavan, and then by training up people in the cities, we can send them gradually, as they are ready...

Prabhupada: There will be no city. We don't want cities.

Bhagavan: What about our city temples?

Prabhupada: No, no. For the time it may go on. But as we make progress, there will be no necessity. City means... For the present we have got. Because the city is there, we are there. But suppose the city is closed. We shall be there? If the city is closed, you still will be there?

Yogesvara: No. But we can predict that the cities will go on for quite some time yet.

Prabhupada: Yes, it will go on, but when they will see that your ideal community is better than city life, people will take to it. Param drstva nivartate [Bg 2.59]. When one gets a better standard of life, naturally he will give up the lower standard of life.

Dhananjaya: But won't the countryside be spoiled if there is an atomic war?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dhananjaya: But won't the countryside be spoiled, become contaminated, if there is an atomic war?

Prabhupada: Yes. The... What is called?

Bhagavan: Fallout? The atomic bomb?

Dhananjaya: Radioactivity.

Prabhupada: By atomic bomb... What is that? The... He says in your country that you divide the city. I just forget.

Yogesvara: The result of the bomb?

Prabhupada: Bomb will be utilized where there are big materialistic persons. Bombs are never thrown in the village.

Bhagavan: The bombs will be thrown in the big cities, where the industry is.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Yogesvara: The targets will be the cities.

Prabhupada: Yes. They will be finished first. The bombs are never used for the villagers. Downtown, downtown. [laughter]

Bhagavan: The bombs will be thrown downtown.

Prabhupada: The downtown will be first finished. [laughter] I have got experience during the last war, the bombs were being thrown in Calcutta, and almost all the bombs were thrown in downtown.

Bhagavan: They know they don't want to bomb the countryside, or else how can they live?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bhagavan: If they bomb the countryside, how can they live?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: The overpopulation is in the city.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: They think that overpopulation occurs in underdeveloped countries, but actually in every city it is overpopulation, people living on top of each other like rats.

Prabhupada: [loud train noises] These are subway trains?

Dhananjaya: No, these are ordinary trains.

Prabhupada: So all your problems solved?

Bhagavan: No, not yet.

Prabhupada: Put problems. I'll solve.

Yogesvara: So here's a problem: The women today want the same rights as men. How can they be satisfied?

Prabhupada: Everything will be satisfied. Just like our women, Krsna conscious, they are working. They don't want equal rights with the men. It is due to Krsna consciousness. They are cleansing the temple, they are cooking very nicely. They are satisfied. They never said that "I have to go to Japan for preaching like Prabhupada." They never say. This is artificial. So Krsna consciousness means work in his constitutional position. The women, men, when they remain in their constitutional position, there will be no artificial [indistinct].

[loud traffic noises]

Bhagavan: They say that our women are unintelligent because they submit so easily, but...

Prabhupada: [train noise] This is subway? No.

Dhananjaya: This is also public transport, other trains.

Bhagavan: But actually, our women are so qualified in so many ways, but these girls who simply work in the city can do nothing. They can't cook, they can't clean, they can't sew.

Prabhupada: All rubbish. These modern girls, they are all rubbish. Therefore they are simply used for sex satisfaction. Topless, bottomless...

Bhagavan: Have to train them.

Prabhupada: No, no women [indistinct]...[end]

Dhananjaya: In Greenland?

Prabhupada: Others cannot live locally. Heh?

Satsvarupa: That's not their karma?

Prabhupada: No, karma is there. That is another point. My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point. They are supposed to be uncivilized, and they live in the ice cottage. There is no sufficient things for eating, and how they live? That is the point. So why civilized man cannot live locally?

Satsvarupa: One objection to that is that they say that now cultures have been spread more by all this transportation. You even write that the world is now like a global village. But if everyone just stays in their own place, they won't know what people and culture is like in other parts of the world, and their view will be more narrow.

Prabhupada: No. They may go sometimes. Just like in India, they used to live locally, but at the same time they used to go to the pilgrimages by walking. It is not prohibited that one should not go out, but when one goes out, he goes out of pleasure, not as obligation. At the present moment it has become an obligation, that one must go out of his home, of his village, of his country. That is defective. There was no need of so many transports. People remained locally. One has to go for livelihood hundred miles. This is defective.

Dhananjaya: But people say they travel for education.

Prabhupada: What education? Hippies? Your education has ended into hippies. Finish that education, nonsense education. Now, you have seen in Harmonist that the school children, they are having sex intercourse publicly, and they are running naked in America. Is it not?

Satsvarupa: Yes. It's a very big thing now, running naked.

Dhananjaya: It's called "streaking."

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the nonsense education, result is like that. Is that education? I first, when I saw in Honolulu University-all hippies, all the students, half naked and niggardly dressed. Why so many? They are all students. You see? It has become a fashion. This is the education. And one commissioner has... You have not seen our Harmonist prepared?

Satsvarupa: I saw it yesterday.

Prabhupada: Collapse.

Satsvarupa: The president of Temple University, he said this was good, this running naked.

Prabhupada: And another has that "Education has collapsed."

Satsvarupa: Oh.

Prabhupada: [japa]

Dhananjaya: So they have lost all sense of moral values.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dhananjaya: They have lost sense of all moral values.

Prabhupada: Animals. The whole material civilization is based on animalism. Therefore now they are coming as naked animals. The basic principle of the civilization is animalism. Now... It was covered by the progress of time-now they are coming to be naked animals, that's all.

Yogesvara: So this is another problem for Bhagavan's book.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: So this is another problem from Bhagavan's book.

Prabhupada: No, no. That... You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Krsna consciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, "Yes, here is life." As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required. [japa]

Yogesvara: Before he left, Bhagavan left me a list of questions. May I ask you some?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political..., mostly political reasons.

Prabhupada: Yes. The whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal..., there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some..., another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals, that's all. But you don't become animal. Counteract. That is required. Then after... A human being is called rational animal. If you come to the rationality, that is required. If you remain also another animal, another type of animal, that will not help you. You have to become actually human being. But durlabham manusam janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam [SB 7.6.1].

You have to... These people, they have no aim of life. What is the aim of human..., they do not know. So their animal propensities are being adjusted this way, that way, this way, that way. Just like they go to see naked dance. The animal propensity-he is seeing his wife daily naked, and still he is going to see naked dance, and paying some fees. Because they have no engagement except this animalism. Is it not? So what is the use of going to see another woman naked? You are seeing every day, every night, your wife naked. Why you are... Because they have no other engagement, the animals. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30].

That a dog, it does not know what is the taste. He is simply chewing the one bone, this way, that way, this way, that way. Because he is animal. He has no other engagement. So this whole society is animal. Especially the Westerners. And they have developed a civilization on that animal propensities, means "I am this body, and the best use of my life is to gratify senses." This is animal. "I am this body." Body means the senses. "And to satisfy the senses is the highest perfection." This is their civilization.

So you have to introduce real human civilization. You should not be surprised an animal, in different shapes, in different capacity, comes out. After all, he is an animal. The basic principle is animalism. Because he is thinking, "I am this body..." As the dog is thinking, "I am dog, very stout and strong dog," so another man is thinking, "I am big nation." But what is the basic principle? A dog is also thinking on the basis of his body, and this big nation is also thinking on the basis of body. So there is no difference between this dog and this big nation. The only difference is that human being, by nature's gift, he got better senses. So... And he has no power, or there is no education to utilize the better senses, how to advance spiritually and get out of this material world. That he has no sense. He is simply using that better intelligence for animalism. This is the meaning. He has no education how to utilize the better intelligence. Therefore he is utilizing only in animalism. And people all over the world, when they see the Westerners, "They are advanced." What is that? Advancing in animalism. Basic principle remains the animalism. They become surprised. They also imitate. So they are expanding animalism, animal civilization. Now we have to counteract for the benefit of the human civilization.

Satsvarupa: They are so ignorant that...

Prabhupada: An animal is always ignorant.

Satsvarupa: When we stress on this point, they become very shocked that we talk like this.

Prabhupada: Yes. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na... [Hitopadesa 3.4].

Satsvarupa: "You are calling us animals?"

Prabhupada: Yes, they are animals. Yes. If they are sensible, they can understand, now, what is the difference. A dog is thinking, "I am very stout and strong dog." He has, on the basis of his body. And another man, a big American, thinks, "We are very big nation, powerful nation." So what is the difference between these? The basic principle is there, the bodily consciousness. Therefore it is animalism. Is it not? The basic principle has not changed. Suppose a pickpocket... The same story, Alexander the Great and the thief. He was arrested, and when he convinced him that "What is the difference between you and me? You have got good military strength. You are conquering. And I have got my knife and another thing. I am just going and plundering. So you are also plundering, I am plundering. Why you have caught me? What right you have got to punish me? Because we are the same. You are doing in a larger scale, I am doing in a small scale. That is the difference." So he was set free, "Yes." Alexander the Great, he was sensible man, "Yes, what I am doing? The same thing in a bigger scale, that's all." So these rascal, actually they are animals, but they are declaring advancement. What advancement? The same thing: eating, sleeping, sex and defending. That is animal... The dogs also do like that. They also eat, they also sleep, they have sex life. Now they are coming to the dog's life. A dog, just like street, they have sex life. They are coming, and you have..., "This is advancement, that we have become now pure dog. So long it was hidden; now we are open." This is the civilization, animal civilization.

Yogesvara: So many social reformers will agree with you...

Prabhupada: What social? He is animal. How he can reform? First of all, let him become man. What reform? What is the meaning of his reform? He is animal also. That's all. You cannot expect any reformation by the same animal. That is explained. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. The so-called leader, he is also animal, and he is eulogized by another animal. This is going on. And another animal, one animal, big animal, is being elected as the president. Therefore you are suffering. Nixon. What is Nixon? He is also another animal. And the animals have elected him president. That's all. This is going on. Where is the human being?

Dhananjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king.

Prabhupada: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different...

Yogesvara: So here in Italy...

Prabhupada: So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the Western mode of life, still, so many Western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your Western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others as animals, as demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously. No. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know that he is animal; therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, [makes sound] ra-ra-ra-ra-ra, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog?

Dhananjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog. Making more noise.

Prabhupada: That's all. So we say another dog is running in a different way. That's all. These are very strong words. People will be angry. But this is a fact.

Yogesvara: So here's a practical problem. People would be interested to know our position on divorce.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: Divorce. Here in Rome they just passed a divorce law.

Prabhupada: That is also animalism. Just like a dog having sex intercourse with another female dog, and another, another, another. It is also animalism. So that is your decision. They are animals, and different way they are coming to be naked animal, that's all. The divorce is also dog's business. Dog is having sex intercourse with this female dog and another, another, another, another. It is animalism, that's all.

Yogesvara: But people are objecting, that "If we cannot get divorced, then we are forced to live with each other even if we hate each other."

Prabhupada: But hate each other, that's all right. We say what is the use of your sexual intercourse? That is animalism. You avoid it. Our Vedic civilization is to avoid it. Therefore they remain brahmacari, naisthika-brahmacari, no sexual intercourse in the whole life. That is perfection.

Yogesvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people.

Prabhupada: No, why not possible? We have got so many. Just like Sukadeva Gosvami: he remained completely brahmacari, although naked he is, even he is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care, because they knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyasadeva, a personality like Vyasadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son, he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahamsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are grhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman."

So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyasi. What is sannyasi? Vanaprastha, sannyasi, brahmacari-no sex life. Out of the three..., four different status of life, the brahmacari has no sex life, the vanaprastha has no sex life, the sannyasi has no sex life. Only the grhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed-it is a simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham [SB 7.9.45].

The example has been given, there is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children, there are so many troubles. You have to raise them nicely, you have to give them education, you must be situated [indistinct]. That is the duty of father. Otherwise, he would go on, begetting like cats and dogs, no responsibility. Just like some of our students, immediately married and again, "Give me sannyasa." What is this? Irresponsible, that's all. Irresponsibility.

So these things are not required at all. These things are not required. Bahu-duhkha-bhajah. After marrying they see it is very great responsibility. "Now let me take sannyasa." That's all. Why you marry? Because he finds that after marriage there are so many difficulties. So irresponsible man. So after, there is difficulties; that's a fact. So why should you go to the difficulty? Therefore the conclusion is the married life is not required. But if you cannot tolerate, all right, get this concession, live very gentlemanly. This is marriage. Otherwise, for higher sense, higher elevation... Higher elevation, of course, one who is actually on the higher elevation, he is married or not married, it doesn't matter. But on the whole, the sex life is not necessary.

Yogesvara: So these Italian women are complaining now that their husbands are abusing them, so why can they not get divorced?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: The Italian women. The women in Italy.

Prabhupada: Why do you marry?

Yogesvara: Obviously, they wanted sex in the beginning, but they didn't know it was going to be so much trouble.

Prabhupada: [chuckles] That is our point. Then why do you marry? Just begin Krsna conscious, and you will find without sex you will be happy.

Yogesvara: But what do we advise such women?

Prabhupada: Whatever they... Others women, they may take lesson from them, that "If these woman are suffering or these men are suffering, why should we marry?" There is a Bengali proverb, dekhe sekhe and tekhe sekhe[?]. One who is intelligent, he can see what is happening, he becomes cautious. And one when actually experienced, then he becomes cautious. Less intelligent. So if it is not good, why you are marrying? Why you are induced by sex life? Stop it by Krsna consciousness. If you devote yourself, the whole life, in Krsna consciousness, you will not be agitated by any sex life. And that is yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde [Yamunacarya]. If one is actually advanced in Krsna consciousness, he will deride: "Huh! Nonsense! What is this?" That is Krsna conscious advancement. This only remedy, prime remedy for all solution, is Krsna consciousness. That we have to show. [japa] So answers are all right or not?

Yogesvara: No, very nice. [laughter]

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating krsna-prasadam and chant whole day and night Hare Krsna. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade and transport and politics? There is no need. Anartha. It is called anartha, unwanted things.

These are all anarthas, unwanted things. So to stop these anarthas this bhakti-yoga. Anartha upasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje, lokasya. These rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. Vidvan, the most learned man, Vyasadeva, has written this Srimad-Bhagavatam.

This is all described. First of all, the first defect is that you are eternal spirit soul. Why you should be entangled with this material body? That is the first fault. That is anartha. I am spirit soul. Why shall I accept this material body? That is my basic principle of unwanted things. And to make solution how to get out of this material entanglement. And that is... Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9]. After leaving this body, now this is the last, and then I am not coming to this material world. How? Simply by Krsna consciousness. Pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat, gurur na sa syat, na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum [SB 5.5.18].

The Bhagavata says that "One should not become parent, father and mother, one should not become guru, one should not become friend, one should not become husband, one..."-these are the guardians-"if one cannot release his dependent from this repetition of birth and death." This is civilization. This is civilization. Not that "I am now human being; I shall become demigod," or "I am dog; I shall become human being." They are thinking this is... The karmis, they are thinking this is advancement. This is not advancement. Real advancement: no more accepting any material body. That is the real advancement. Just finish.

This sense can come in human form of life, that "I have suffered so much. I have coming through so many species of life. Now I have got sense." So the reply is there that mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti [Bg 8.15]: "Anyone who comes to Me, he does not come again to this miserable condition of material existence." We should take advantage of these things. That is human civilization. What is this human civilization? Jumping like dog, in a motorcar, that's all. This is not civilization. This is dog civilization, that's all. And actually what the benefit they have derived? They are not satisfied. One man has got this car, and next year another car, another car. And the car manufacturer also giving fashion: "This is 1974 edition, this is 1975 edition." And they are earning money with hard labor. "All right, get a motorcar." And again, next year change. What is this civilization? No satisfaction. They do not know where is the point of satisfaction. It is dog civilization.

Yogesvara: Srila Prabhupada, the way you've been describing our solutions to the problems of the world, they seem to be on two levels. One is the extended solution, that is to say, the ultimate solution of Krsna conscious.

Prabhupada: No, there is no question of extended. You keep yourself in a limited solution. And then, when it is appreciated it will be automatically extended. You don't touch the extended. You become ideal civilized man. Others will follow.

Yogesvara: Well, for example, ultimately we want to live locally. These cities are not necessary. But still, the cities for now...

Prabhupada: No, you make the best use of a bad bargain. We shall depend more... Just like in New Vrindavan, they are coming to the city for preaching. So not absolutely we can abstain immediately, because we have been dependent so long, many, many lives. You cannot. But the ideal should be introduced gradually. And make it perfect more and more and more and more. But there is possibility. Possibility if you live locally and make your arrangement, you get your food... The real necessity is, bodily necessity is, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. This is necessity. So if you can eat locally, you can sleep locally, you can have your sex life also locally and you can defend locally, then where is the wrong? These are the necessities. We are not stopping this. We are not stopping: "No more sex life." That is nonsense, another nonsense. You must have. Marry. That's all. So you can marry locally and live. Where is the difficulty? Defend. If somebody comes to attack, there must be men to defend. And eating and sleeping. Where is your difficulty? Manage locally, as far as possible. After all, these are the necessities of body. So it can be solved locally. Is it impossible to solve the bodily necessities? What do you think? Is it impossible?

Satsvarupa: No, it's very simple.

Prabhupada: Then do it. Do it. Set example perfectly. [japa] This is nice park. Yes. You can have your park locally. Where is the difficulty? Garden. Fruits, flowers, garden. That is park. Also you can have a pond like this. People are doing that locally, in Bengal especially. Whole Bengal was a garden. It was so nice. Whole Bengal was a garden.

Dhananjaya: I noticed this when I took the train from Calcutta to Krishnanagar. Once you get further out, it's so nice, the villages. There is the pond there...

Prabhupada: And... Why Calcutta? You go to the airport, you will find so nice gardens, still existing. Now it is spoiled also, because people have changed locally to the city. Nobody has to take care now. Otherwise, in Bengal especially, throughout the whole India, Bengal was so beautiful. The Europeans became attracted by the beauty of Bengal. Therefore they made Calcutta their capital, the Britishers. Yes. Every European liked Bengal. Every European. I met one European German gentleman in Bombay. He was in Calcutta, when I was in Bimha[?]. So I asked, "Why you left Calcutta?" "Oh, I am very sorry. Calcutta was so nice." And actually. Where we have got our temple, these quarters were known as "Sahib" quarter. Just like our temple is "Sahib" temple. So these Chowringee and Camac Street, Park, these were all European. They liked very much to live in Bengal. And there is another story: One English officer, he became attracted by the beauty of a Bengali woman. There is story by Bankim Chandra. Chandrashekhara. The man was after that woman, how to get it. That is the subject matter of story. He was attracted by the black eyes and black hair. Bengali beauty.

Yogesvara: Krsna has black hair, too.

Prabhupada: Why do you bring Krsna here? This is all sense gratification. [laughter]

Yogesvara: Well, if he could only have been attracted to Krsna...

Prabhupada: But that is very good that even in talking this material, you remembered Krsna. That is very good. You remember Krsna. When childish playing, if you remember Krsna's childhood, that is very good. That is very good. Some way or other, if you get the chance of remembering Krsna, that is advancement.

Satsvarupa: Even if the example is not so clear or good.

Prabhupada: That doesn't matter. You remember Krsna some way or other. Krsna does not belong to this abominable material world, but it is benefit for you because you remembered Krsna. [japa]

Yogesvara: The manager of a large factory comes to us and says, "Well, here is my problem: my workers are striking for higher pay, and no one is satisfied So what can I do?"

Prabhupada: Yes, you take to Krsna consciousness.

Yogesvara: Well, he wants to know, "How can I apply that in my factory?"

Prabhupada: You give us the in charge, make us in charge of the factory, we shall do it, and see how we can deal. You can do it. We shall introduce immediately kirtana and give them prasadam. It will be solved. And give them lecture and philosophy. We can take. Let us have the charge, then see how we can do it. Or you follow our instruction. But that you will not. You want to exploit these poor fellows, and you are coming to us for solution. You first of all give us this spirit of exploiting. Then it will be solved. You have come to take our advice how to exploit them.

Yogesvara: So he would ask, "Do I have to close my factory?"

Prabhupada: No, we shall run on the factory. You give us in charge. We don't want anything from you. Let us manage. I can manage. Just organize saṅkirtana. It will be solved. Now, these factory men works and goes home. So if you say that "You come early in the morning and you take prasadam here and chant Hare Krsna half an hour," they will immediately agree. Immediately agree. And give them good prasadam and have chanting for one hour. They will be all submissive. Is it not? Will they not agree? At least, they will see that "We haven't got to spend money for our food at home. We shall get nice food here. Let us chant. What is the harm?" And as soon as he chants, he becomes a gentleman. That's all.

Yogesvara: So because we will have cut down his expenses, he will be satisfied with the pay that he has. We would not have to give him more money.

Prabhupada: They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Krsna conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot..., you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Krsna. Then the solution is there.

Yogesvara: So in other words the workers are unsatisfied because they see that the managers are exploiting them, but if they see the managers are giving the money to Krsna, they will feel satisfied.

Prabhupada: Yes, and they will also give. Krsna becomes the proprietor. Everyone is satisfied.

Dhananjaya: Jaya. This is varnasrama institution.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is above varnasrama. It is above varnasrama. Varnasrama, there is give and take, but here there is no give and... Here is simply give, no take. That is above varnasrama.

Dhananjaya: So the workers are giving to the devotees and the devotees are giving to Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. They become devotee, they will give to Krsna. You also become devotees. Not that they become devotee and you exploit them very nicely. That is not.

Satsvarupa: It is getting a little late. We should... for our class.

Prabhupada: Which way we shall go?

Dhananjaya: Just up here. [break]

Satsvarupa: ...their nuts and bolts.

Prabhupada: No, nuts, if there is demand, let this go on. Why shall I shut down? But we cannot run on this slaughterhouse program... [indistinct] [break] [end]