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720704RC.NY
Room Conversation
July 4, 1972, New York Prabhupada: Syamasundara is transcribing your talks with me in Mayapur.
Bob Cohen: I received your very kind letter about a week ago.
Prabhupada: Now, you are very intelligent boy. You can try to understand this philosophy. It is very important. And try to preach. For sense gratification people are wasting so much time, but they do not..., they're not responsible what is going to happen next life. But there is next life. Foolish people, they are ignorant, but there is next life, and this life is preparation for next life. That they do not know. The modern education, universities, they're completely in darkness about this simple knowledge. We are changing body every momentthat's a medical scienceand after changing this body, we'll have to accept another body. How we are going to accept that body, what kind of body, this can be also known. Just like one is being educated, when he passes his examination, one can understand that he's going to be engineer or a medical practitioner. Similarly, in this life you can prepare yourself to become something next life.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can decide. Just like we have decided next life we are going to Krsna. This is our decision: back to home, back to Godhead. Just like you become educated, after decision that you are going to be engineer, you are going to be medical practitioner, and in that objective you prepare yourself, educate yourself. Similarly, you can decide what you are going to do next life. If you don't decide, then material nature will decide. Just like a boy who is not nicely educated, without any future objective, the government will decide. If he's a criminal, then government will decide, "Go to jail," and if he's nicely educated, the government will decide, "You take this job." So everything is like that. We have got our future life, and if we don't prepare what is that future life, then we are like animals. The animals, they do not know.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: Therefore you are given the chance to become Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: You may not be. It doesn't matter. But you can become, take advantage of our Krsna consciousness movement.
Atreya Rsi: She's asking if it was possible in her last life she was a Krsna's devotee, in her last life, and come back again? If you're a Krsna's devotee coming back again. In your last...
Prabhupada: When one is perfectly Krsna's devotee, he may not come, but if there is little deficiency, then there is possibility of coming back. But even though there is deficiency, he comes back to nice family, sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto sanjayate [Bg. 6.41]. (aside:) What is this? Human intelligence can decide for future. That is human intelligence. The animal cannot decide. We have got that discriminating power developed, "I shall do this, I will be benefited. If I do this, I shall not be benefited." This is there in human life. So we have to use it properly. We should know what is our goal of life and decide in that way. That is human intelligence. What is that?
Prabhupada: Oh.
Bali-mardana: Yadubara, I think he has sent many from the family collection of Lalita Prasada. The painters...
Prabhupada: So keep it and frame it, and keep it in my room.
Prabhupada: Yes. Why not.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not all family members.
Prabhupada: Oh, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but not that all family.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Daily. Every moment.
Prabhupada: Huh? No in... He has no material body.
Prabhupada: That is not material. You are seeing material...
Prabhupada: ...because you have got material eyes. Because your, you have got your material eyes, you cannot see the spiritual form. Therefore He kindly appears to be in a material body so that you can see. This is the point. Because He has kindly made Himself just fit for your seeing, that does not mean He is..., that He has material body. Just like President Nixon, if he kindly comes to your house, it does not mean that his position and your position is the same. It is his kindness, out of love, he may come to your house, but that does not mean he is on the same level with you. Similarly, because we cannot see with our present eyes what is Krsna, therefore Krsna appears before us as painting, as made of stone, as made of wood. And Krsna is not different from these paintings and wood because everything is Krsna.
Prabhupada: You get another body.
Prabhupada: Yes. After your, just like you change your apartment, you fix up your apartment first, then you leave this and go there.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: Yes, you'll know it, provided you are qualified; otherwise nature will arrange for it. Those who know, they know what is there, but those who do not know, then nature will arrange. You do not know means you have not prepared your life, so accidentally, at the time of death, your mentality will create another body and nature will supply you.
Prabhupada: That you can ask these boys. They will instruct you.
Bob Cohen: Could you tell me what is the difference between, uh.... Krsna controls everything, so how, how does Krsna control a nondevotee?
Prabhupada: By maya. By having... Just like government controls everything. A criminal is controlled by the police department.
Bob Cohen: And how does Krsna control a devotee?
Prabhupada: Just like you control your beloved. Just like you have got a beloved child. So you control him, for his benefit. If he's going to touch fire, you immediately say to him, "No, no, my dear child, don't touch it." So a Krsna conscious person, devotee, he is never misled, because Krsna is always guiding him, whereas those who are not Krsna conscious, they're in charge of maya, and maya will do the needful, as you have seen(?).
Bob Cohen: Is is preset when we're born, the time that we'll die?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Bob Cohen: Is the time that I'm going to die, and everybody going to die, is this preset before they're born? Do I have, when I'm born, do I have a certain given lifespan?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: And he cannot change that?
Prabhupada: No. He cannot change, but Krsna can change.
Atreya Rsi: If he commits suicide, if somebody commits suicide, that is also preset?
Prabhupada: Yes. Not preset. That you can do, because you have got little independence. It is not natural to commit suicide. It is unnatural. So, because we have got independence, we can go from nature to unnature, and we shall be prepared for that. Just like a prisoner cannot go out of the prisonhouse naturally, but somehow or other he arranges to jump over the wall and goes away. Then he becomes again criminal, for farther (indistinct). Naturally, the prisoners cannot go out of the prisonhouse. Somehow or other, he manages to go out. That means he becomes again criminal. He will be again arrested, and his term of imprisonment will be increased, or he will be punished more. So naturally we cannot violate the destiny, but if we do it, then we suffer(?). But our destiny can be changed by Krsna when we are Krsna conscious. That we do not do, but Krsna will do. Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: [Bg. 18.66] "I shall give you protection." So that change takes place for my protection by Krsna. There are two stages: nondevotee and devotee. The nondevotee is under the control of material nature, and devotee is under the direct control of Krsna. Just like a big man. In the office there are many employees, they are controlled by different departmental superintendent. But the small man at home is controlling his children directly. The controller, he is controller both in the office and factory and home, but at home he is controller directly; outside home he is controller indirectly. But he is controller always. Similarly, God is controller always. When one becomes devotee, he is controlled directly by God. When he is nondevotee, he is controlled by His agent, maya. But he has to be controlled. Just like every citizen of America is controlled by the government. When he's all right, his civil department controls him. When he's not all right, then the criminal department controls him. But he cannot say that "I am not controlled." That is not possible. If somebody says, "I am not controlled," he is not sane. He is crazy. Everyone is controlled. So either you be controlled directly by God or you be controlled by his agency. Being controlled by maya, you spoil your life. That means you remain in the material existence, one after another. You simply change your body. But if you give yourself to be controlled by God, then after this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then your life is successful. You cannot be without being controlled. That is not possible. Therefore one who is intelligent, he puts himself under the control of God directly. That is intelligence. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many births of struggling, or speculation, one surrenders unto Me." Vasudevah sarva..., "Krsna, You are everything. So I am.... Accept me. I am now fully surrendered unto You, and You control me." Because I am controlled. So, so long I am being controlled by these rascals, so there is no benefit. I'm controlled. I have been controlled by my senses. So under the control of the senses, I have served family, so-called family, society, country, nation, up to serving the dog, but nothing has given me the satisfaction. Therefore now I have got sense, good sense. I put myself under Your power. Instead of being controlled by dog, let me be controlled by God. This is Krsna consciousness. You have not seen, man, how he is controlled by a dog, in the street? The dog stops, passes stool. "Yes, I stand.'' Is it not? He's passing stool, his urine, and the master is thinking, "I am master," but he's being controlled. That is maya. He has become servant of dog, but he is thinking that "I am master of dog.'' This is maya. This is maya. So unless one is Krsna conscious, one cannot understand. We can understand that this rascal is being controlled by this dog, but he's thinking that he is the master. We can understand. What do you think? Does he not become controlled by the dog?
Bob Cohen: It's very true.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Bob Cohen: That, it's very true.
Prabhupada: But he's thinking that "I am master of the dog." A family man, he's controlled by his wife, by his children, by his servant, by everyone, but he's thinking, "I am master." President Nixon is thinking that he's master of his country, but he's controlled. At once he can be dismissed by the public, his servant. And he gets that position, placing himself that "I'll give you very good service. I shall be your first-class servant.'' Therefore people vote, "All right, you become president.'' And he's advertising, "Re-elect me. Re-elect me.'' That means he is servant. But he's thinking, "I am master.'' That is the position. Maya. One who is controlled by maya, he's thinking himself master, but he's servant. And a devotee, he'll never think himself, "I am master." "I am servant.'' That is the difference between maya and not maya. He at least knows that "I am never master. I am always servant." But these rascals, they think that they are master when actually they are servant. That is the difference. That is the difference. When a servant is thinking, "I am master," that is called illusion. And when a servant thinks "I am servant," that is not illusion; that is mukti. That is liberation. Because he is not controlled by a false thought. Try to think about this subject matter. A devotee is never controlled by a false thought. He knows his position. Svarupena vyavasthitih [SB 2.10.6]. Mukti, liberation, means to be situated in his own constitutional position. That is called mukti, liberation. I am servant, so if I know that "I am servant," that is my liberation. And I am servant; if I think "I am master," that is his bondage. That is the difference between conditioned life and liberated life. So these Krsna conscious devotee, they're always thinking that they are servants of Krsna. Therefore all, they are all liberated. They haven't got to endeavor for liberation. They are already liberated, because they are situated in their constitutional position. They're not artificially thinking that "I am master." Otherwise everyone is thinking, "I am master.'' Everyone is thinking. That is illusion. You cannot be master in any stage of your life. You must have to remain servant. That is your position. But when one thinks artificially that he is master, that is his conditioned life. And when one voluntarily surrenders to the supreme master, that is his liberated life. The devotee hasn't got to try for liberation separately. As soon as he surrenders to Krsna or Krsna's representative, he is liberated.
Bob Cohen: Prabhupada, people that engage in religions, like these Jesus freaks and other people, they claim that Jesus is guiding them. Can this be so?
Prabhupada: Yes. But they're not taking the guidance. Just like the Christians. Jesus guiding him, "Thou shalt not kill," but they're killing. Where is the Jesus guidance? Simply by saying, "I am guided by Jesus Christ," will do? "But I don't care for his words." Is that guidance? So nobody is being guided by Jesus Christ. They're falsely claiming. It is very hard to find out a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ's guidance is open there, but nobody is caring for him. They have taken Jesus Christ as contractor to take up their sins. That is their philosophy. They commit all kinds of sins, and poor Jesus Christ will be responsible. That is their religion. Therefore they say, "We have got very good religion. For all our sinful activities, Jesus Christ will die.'' Very good religion. They have no sympathy for Jesus Christ. "Once he has died for our sins, why should we commit again sins? Such a great life has been sacrificed for our sins.'' That is guided by Jesus Christ. But if you take it otherwise"We shall go on committing all sins, and Jesus Christ has made contract that he'll nullify all my sins. Simply I go to the church and confess, and come back and again do all nonsense''do you think it is very goodly intelligence?
Bob Cohen: No.
Prabhupada: That you... Actually one is guided by Jesus Christ, he'll get liberation, certainly. But it is very hard to find out a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ.
Bob Cohen: What I think about is the Jesus freaks, the..., these people that, young people that have joined this Jesus movement, and they read the Bible very often, and they try to...
Prabhupada: But to read the Bible, but violate the Bible injunction, injunction. How they can kill if they are following the Bible?
Bob Cohen: I asked one. They said..., he said he claimed that Jesus was also eating meat in the Bible. But I don't know.
Prabhupada: But that's all right. He, he may eat anything. He's powerful. But he has ordered, "Thou shalt not kill.'' You must stop killing. He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. You cannot compare with Jesus Christ. You cannot imitate Jesus Christ. You shall have to abide by his order. That is your position. Then you are guided by Jesus Christ. That is actually obedience. You cannot imitate. That is explained in Bhagavata, that those who are isvara, those who are empowered, they will do anything, but we cannot imitate. We have to abide by his order. "What he says to me, that I will do.'' You cannot imitate. If you say that "Jesus Christ ate meat,'' admitting that, in what condition he ate meat, if you do not know, then Jesus Christ is contradicting his statement. He's eating himself meat, and he's advising others not to kill. Do you think Jesus Christ is contradicting?
Bob Cohen: No.
Prabhupada: He cannot do that. That, that is real faith in Jesus, that he cannot do that. So "Why he has eaten meat, he knows, but he has asked me not to kill. I have to follow it.'' That is real Christianity. You are not Jesus Christ. You cannot imitate. He has sacrificed his life for God. Can you do that? So why you (indistinct) imitate Jesus Christ? You are imitating Jesus Christ for eating meat. Why not imitate Jesus Christ, sacrifice your life for spreading God consciousness? What do you think, Kirtanananda?
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes. When you preach, you can say all these things with so-called Christians. So what you are doing for God? Tejiyasam na dosaya [SB 10.33.29]. Just like sun. The sun is absorbing urine. Can you drink urine? If you want to imitate sun, "Oh, here is sun absorbing urine. Let me drink urine,'' can you? Tejiyasam na dosaya. He is powerful. He can do everything. Therefore we cannot imitate Him. We have to simply abide by His order. That is real Christian. You cannot imitate powerful man. That is wrong. Just like in our Vedic literature there was a poison ocean. So what.... People became puzzled what to do with thisthis demigod. Then Lord Siva said, "All right. I'll drink it.'' So he drank the whole poison ocean and kept it in his throat, nilakantha. Now, you drink poison? Not the ocean. You drink one cup. So how you can imitate Lord Siva? Lord Siva never advised that we drink poison. So you have to abide by the advice, not by imitating, "Oh, Lord Siva...'' Just like this LSD and marijuana, they say sometimes, "Lord Siva used to smoke ganja.'' They say like that. But Lord Siva drank the whole poison ocean. Can you do that? Lord Siva's instruction should be taken. He says, "The best worship is to worship Visnu,'' visnu aradhanam param. When Siva was asked by Parvati that "What method of worship is first-class?'' Then he said, "The first-class worship is worshiping Lord Visnu.'' Visnu aradhanam param. Tasmat parataram devi tadiyanam aradhanam. He said the Visnu worship is the best. There are many demigods, but he recommended, "Visnu worship is the best.'' And the better than Visnu worship is to worship Vaisnava. Tadiyanam aradhanam. Tadiya means His servant, or one who is, or what is in relationship with Him. Just like we are worshiping this plant, Tulasi. We are not worshiping all plants, but because this Tulasi has very intimate connection with Krsna and Visnu, therefore we are worshiping. Tadiyanam aradhanam. Similarly, anything who is intimately related with Krsna, worship of that thing is better than worship of Visnu, Krsna.
Bob Cohen: Why is that?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Bob Cohen: Why is that? Worshiping.... ?
Prabhupada: Because, because Krsna will be pleased. Just like if you have a dog, and some friends come and pats your dog, you become pleased. You become pleased, "Ah, he is my good friend.'' We see all (indistinct) come on, that some friend comes and friend's dog, the friend's (indistinct) "My, you have got a nice dog," your friend says. (laughter) Come on. (conversation in Hindi with Indian guests from Bombay for some minutes)
Prabhupada: Jaya.
Devotee: So Prabhupada, you'll be leaving in about ten minutes. In ten minutes.
Prabhupada: Yes. I am ready. I can go.
Kirtanananda: Srila Prabhupada's always ready.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: You're always ready.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have taken that, all bags and baggages, that's all right. I am ready. What is that Cleveland?
Kirtanananda: That's, I think, Srila Prabhupada, there's a group in Cleveland, Ohio.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: There is a colored lady who is leading a group, and they're dressing in dhotis and saris, and uh, they're doing some...
Prabhupada: So you just train them.
Kirtanananda: They're doing some disturbance to the temple there. And they are here. They've come to New York.
Prabhupada: Ah, so, what do they want?
Kirtanananda: They want to see you.
Prabhupada: Why? He is not my student. So the GBC unders may see and do the needful. All affairs, how can I see everyone?
Kirtanananda: No. You..., I don't think you should.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Kirtanananda: You asked me what they wanted.
Prabhupada: Everyone wants, but how can I see everyone? (aside:) Give it to Syamasundara.
Kirtanananda: So you will come for Janmastami.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Kirtanananda: Without fail.
Prabhupada: Oh. So where is the key of the almirah?
Prabhupada: Yes. And you have got one?
Nanda-kumara: No. That turned out that that other key was the same make of key, but it didn't fit the slot. There was only one key.
Prabhupada: All right. Then where is the pen?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Preach, preach, preach, preach, preach, preach.... Everyone is (indistinct). That Christian, "Oh what..., what Christian you are? You are disobeying the orders of Jesus Christ, and you (indistinct) a Christian." This is going on. We don't say that because you are Christian you cannot love God. We simply say that you are not following. If you follow, then you can learn also how to love God. I never said. So many questions are there. "By following Jesus(?), yes, we can attain perfection." Yes?
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, which would you like to take?
Prabhupada: Any one will do.
Devotee: So shall I take your passport now, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: And health card?
Prabhupada: Yes. So here is my passport, and here is my health cards. Is that all right?
Devotee: Yes.
Syamasundara: This we have to turn in when leaving the country.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Thank you. It is too fresh.
Devotee: Huh?
Prabhupada: Too fresh (laughter). Water.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Now, you can take this. Kirtanananda Maharaja, you can take this. Kirtanananda Maharaja. Where is Visnujana? He can take this.
Devotee: Visnujana Swami.
Prabhupada: And if you can distribute among the others? Where is my, that wrapper? Yes. So the Deity is open?
Prabhupada: So I'll go and see the Deity, and from that door I shall get out.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Ready?
Devotee: No, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So ask them to keep my one cloth out; otherwise I may require in this at least one sweater, one wrapper.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: So is that our version about Christianity is all right?
Atreya Rsi: Wonderful, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Huh, where is Christian? Simply by saying that "I am Christian..."
Atreya Rsi: There is no Christian.
Prabhupada: There is no Christian. Otherwise there is no difference between Christianity and our philosophy. They're Christian; we're Krishnian. And Christ comes from the word Krsta. So if they actually follow the commandments given by Lord Jesus Christ, the world will change, immediately.
Devotee: Is that so...
Prabhupada: Unnecessarily, false argument. Even Jesus Christ ate meat, you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, our best, I have found that the best argument is, you practice. Proof.
Prabhupada: Yes. So I shall go? No.
Devotee: A few minutes, I think, 'cause they are still packing.
Prabhupada: All right.
Atreya Rsi: None of these religions have produced a sannyasi.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Atreya Rsi: None of them. A person who is detatched from material life.
Jayadvaita: I was reading in the Bible...
Prabhupada: Therefore I refused this Bhagavata reader. He wants to come here, and no, we don't want these professional men. We want men who have sacrificed their life for God. We want such men, not professional. The so-called priests, they are professional. They are earning money. That's all. Just see, they, how the karmis are earning money by their business, and it has become a business. Everywhere, religion has become a business.
Devotee: They perform some charity, that's all.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee: They just perform some char...
Prabhupada: What charity they can do? We also, a "loophole," that's all. We are making charity.
Jayadvaita: I was reading in their book, the Bible...
Prabhupada: And they're playing, gambling.
Devotee: Yes. In the church.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotees: Bingo.
Prabhupada: Bingo.
Jayadvaita: I was reading, they prescribe..., the book prescribes all our principles.
Prabhupada: And five hundred, five hundred priests are in hospital for, for their drinking habit. Five hundred or five thousand? You know that? Yes. Brahmananda gave me a cutting from newspaper, that five hundred or five thousand priests are in the hospital to cure of their drinking habit.
Kirtanananda: Probably five thousand?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: Probably five thousand. (indistinct) five hundred.
Prabhupada: Huh? They're drinking, they're eating meat, they're gambling and they are having illicit sex, and they are preaching. And we say, "First of all stop these things, then claim yourself to be religious, or God conscious." You cannot indulge in all these things. (aside:) Oh, you have kept my one cloth outside?
Devotee: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. It's outside.
Prabhupada: Because I may require in the.... So, we don't want to enter into arguments, but we must know, but if somebody comes to argument, we have to say. What can be done? We say that "You follow Christianity in perfect order, you'll be benefited." That we say. Our test is whether you're advancing in God consciousness. That is our test. You follow Christianity or Muhammadanism, anything you follow, we don't mind. Whether you are developing your God consciousness, love for God, that is our test. But if your process has failed, then you can try this. And you'll see, in our process within so short time, how they are becoming God conscious. You have to admit. And they admit also.
Visnujana: They're not getting any young priests.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Visnujana: They're not getting young priests. Only this movement is getting young priests.
Prabhupada: Yes. Very young. Just from the womb of the mother. (laughter) Yes?
Devotee: (indistinct) go Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes, I'm ready. (breakconversation in car) That building is Empire Building?
Devotee: Yes. Empire State Building.
Devotee (2): These are now world's biggest, these buildings here, those big square ones. (World Trade Center buildings).
Prabhupada: Oh.
Devotee (2): They're much taller than the Empire State Building. [break]
Devotee: It's called...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Prabhupada: Oh.
Prabhupada: But, uh, tickets?
Prabhupada: I can give you that also. (japa) (end)
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1972/jul/new_york/july/04/1972 Previous: Room Conversation -- June 30, 1972, San Diego Next: Room Conversation -- July 4, 1972, New York
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