Skinner, B.F.

Syamasundara: So this, this philosopher is B. F. Skinner. He is actually a psychologist, but he has a philosophy also. And that philosophy...

Prabhupada: Well psychology is part of philosophy.

Syamasundara: Yes. And philosophy...

Prabhupada: In Vaisnava philosophy. Psychology better position [indistinct] together makes philosophy.

Syamasundara: Anyway, the philosophy is that, "The Christian ideal that inside the body there is a person is outmoded", he says. "But the science has discovered that a person's behavior and his reactions are simply a product of his environment, his conditioning. That he can make a fool out of a wise man or a wise man out of a fool simply by changing the surroundings and the conditions. This is called the..."

Prabhupada: Why the man has not been able to change the surrounding of death, birth? What is this surrounding?

Syamasundara: Well, he said, "That problem can, can be never be solved."

Prabhupada: Then how he said you can make change by surroundings?

Syamasundara: He only, he only talks about behavior.

Prabhupada: Behavior, that's all right. Whatever behavior..., in the ultimate, goal. Everyone is dying so how man can change this condition? Then he can say that there is no God, there is no soul.

Syamasundara: Hm. His idea is that he wants..., he has one idea-that is to be able to control human behavior.

Prabhupada: What he wants to do? By human behavior... Every man is eating. How he can control? That he cannot control.

Syamasundara: By what they call, "Method of reinforcement." Supposing... He said that, "Men have become too free, so our whole society-culture, is ruined. Being ruined because men are too free. Quite free..."

Prabhupada: No. They are not free. We, according to our Vedic civilization, we are controlled by the Vedic knowledge. We are not free.

Syamasundara: That he..., He says that, in a way. He says that, "Everyone is conditioned by their environment."

Prabhupada: No. He is conditioned by nature, not by environment. Just like there is excessive heat, excessive cold. He is conditioned by nature. You cannot avoid it.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Then where is his..., molding this environment. You cannot make winter season into summer season or summer season into winter season.

Syamasundara: No. But he says, "You can train a men to accept certain values by reinforcing, rewarding them when they are right and punishing them when they are wrong."

Prabhupada: That means they are already conditioned, you want to make them further conditioned.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is the idea.

Syamasundara: Perfect control over everyone.

Prabhupada: So that is already there. The Vedic injunction means the, the authorities. They conditioned, so that under condition they also can be peaceful. What is his idea?

Syamasundara: For instance, the society. He says, "The society should be full of love and security and harmony, everyone should work in unison. But because people have freedom to choose this or that. That-too much freedom, the society is falling apart.

Prabhupada: That is Western society, not the society controlled by Vedic literature.

Syamasundara: So...

Prabhupada: Just like marriage in Vedic society, that is a religious obligation. They cannot cancel. The freedom, the so-called freedom is allowed in the upstart Western society.

Syamasundara: So he says, "We have to change all this now."

Prabhupada: Then they have to take to these Vedic principles. That is the way.

Syamasundara: He works... His idea is taken from his work on rats and pigeons.

Prabhupada: [laughs] His authority is rats and pigeons. That's all right? Our authority is Vedavyasa.

Devotees: [laughter]

Prabhupada: That is the difference. Our authority is Krsna. Our authority is Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Manu-and his authority is rats and pigeons. That is the difference between the West and East.

Syamasundara: Right. He has shown scientifically that you can train a rat to push a button..., "Of many buttons, he will push the one that gives him food. If he pushes one button and the food comes, then he will continually press that button. So you can... " He says, "You can condition a man by rewarding him when he is right and punishing him when he is wrong."

Prabhupada: Yes. That is, that is the whole Vedic literature-the heaven and hell. If you do like this, then you go to heaven, and if you do like this, you go to hell. If you do like this, you go to Godhead. This is Vedic literature. It is already there, phala sruti, phala sruti. That if one chants like this, he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

Syamasundara: He says that, "If you insist that individual..."

Prabhupada: And this morning I was speaking, "If you want to be naked, then you become tree. If you want become..., fresh blood. Then you become tiger and if you wants to serve Krsna, that is Goloka Vrndavana." These things are there already in the Vedic literature. They are controlling. That is real conditioning.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Real controlling means there is no mistake. If these rats and cats are controlling, then maybe you take rats' and cats' authority and others may take some tigers' and others' authorities. This will change always.

Syamasundara: You said...

Prabhupada: The authority must be fixed. Yes?

Devotee: Skinner's theory isn't. He isn't saying how we should control people. He is simply putting forth the idea that people should be controlled.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: He doesn't say... He doesn't, he says opinion, in fact admits that he doesn't know what the aim or goal is, or how exactly we should control it. He is simply putting forth what according to the Vedic system is, is the correct thesis [?] that people can be controlled.

Prabhupada: Man is already controlled...

Devotee: Yeah right.

Prabhupada: ...already controlled. Just like Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that you are already under the stringent laws, under the control of the stringent laws of material nature. And you are feeling inconvenienced, just like that threefold miserable condition.

[aside:] You can sit-down there if you want [indistinct] pressing...

Guest: I, I'm...

Prabhupada: [aside:] Yes, like this, yes. Some of you can come this side? Yes.

So there is no doubt about it that we are controlled. Nobody can say, "I am free." We are controlled.

Devotee: But...

Prabhupada: When we are being controlled, we are feeling some inconvenience. So we are advising that you be under the control of Krsna.

Karandhara: One, one extension of Skinner's idea. They say, "Now we have so many criminals, and they are causing disruption within society." So he says that, "That is our fault." He says that, "Rather everyone from childhood should be trained in a controlled environment and then be conditioned to a certain pattern. So that they will not commit what is considered a crime and will only do what is considered good." In other words, they become more like robots. So only do what they are programed, like a robot. You program to do a certain thing and they won't transgress that program.

Prabhupada: I see. So that program is already there. But if you create your own program, you do not follow the standard program. That is the defect.

Syamasundara: His program, he says, "Skinner himself believes in Judeo-Christian ethics combined with a scientific tradition. But he fails to answer how it is possible to accept those ethics without accepting something like an inner person with an autonomous conscience." In other words, he says, "We can program society to be good to your neighbor, to love one another, to be honest, upright, like that. But he is still not sure how it would be possible without accepting a free will."

Prabhupada: Therefore the defect is that these programs are being forwarded by some rascals. Therefore they are defective. If they would have been forwarded by perfect men, then it would have acted nicely. Now one rascal is forwarding some program, another rascal next time family that this is good. So this is going on in the Western civilization. Because according to Bhagavata they belong to the category of dogs, hogs, camels. So what is the benefit of a dog's program and superceded by a camel's program. If they are on the..., basically they are nothing but dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Then suppose dog has given some program and the camel says, "No. This program is better than this one." And the ass comes, he gives another program, "But this program is better than this program." So either of these programs because they are made by dogs, hogs, asses and camels, they cannot be perfect. Take a program from a real human being. Then it is sucessful. The defect is there. One philosopher is [indistinct] proposing something, another philosopher is proposing... That is everywhere-especially in the Western countries, they have been so in decline. But the Vedic civilization there is no independence. They must follow the Vedic injunction. As I have said several times, the Vedas says that the stool of cow is completely pure. They are satified. They do not argue that, "Formerly you said that the stool of animal is impure. Now you are saying the stool of animal-cow, is pure. So how can I accept?" But there is no such thing. The Vedas says, even it is stool, but the Vedas says the stool of cow is perfectly pure. Yes. No contradiction. Our presentation of Krsna consciousness is like that. What Krsna says, that is wanted-as it is. There is no question of altering or changing according to circumstances. We know Krsna is perfect. Whatever He has said, it is all perfect, in all circumstances. That is our philosophy. We do not deviate. So similarly, if the direction is taken for training from the-perfect, then it is all right.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: And if the direction is taken from the classes of men who are, hogs, dogs, and asses, and camels how you can take?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Today you'll put something, next day another put something, next day another put something, so the whole society will be puzzled.

Syamasundara: Yes. He has some, some knowledge, he says, "Everyone is conditioned anyway. Everyone is conditioned by..."

Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is conditioned, that is, that is a...

Syamasundara: He said, he said...

Prabhupada: Unless he is conditioned, there is no question of material life. Material life means conditioned life. There is no question of freedom. Just like prison life, prison life means conditioned life. You may be a first-class prisoner, a second-class prisoner, that generally. But as soon as you are put within the walls of the prison house, you are conditioned. That is the fact. Similarly, anyone who has accepted this body deha-bhajam. Not just like Bhagavata [SB 5.5.1] says, nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke. Nrloke.

Everyone is conditioned, accepting this material body. But he says nayamdeho-bhajam nrloke. [?] But those who have accepted this material body in the human society, for them it is not good to be engaged in sense gratification like dogs, hogs and camels. Everyone, everyone who has got this material body, he is conditioned. But, so when one gets the body of a human being, he should not be so conditioned like the dogs, hogs, camels. This is the truth, that we are conditioned. We have got the body. We have got the bodily necessities. We have to eat, we have to sleep, we have to, we must gratify our senses, must protect ourself from fear. So conditions are there, but a still, you can make your conditions better. And how? Tapo. We have to undergo austerities, penances. Just like we say, we don't say, "No sex life," but "No illicit sex life." This is better condition. Eh?

Devotee: Skinner also believes that we have to control activities, but he himself is not willing to undergo those austerities.

Prabhupada: Therefore he is useless.

Devotee: Right. He speaks [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Example is better than precept. By example he cannot prove. Therefore his precept has no value.

Atreya Rsi: Another problem with his precept Prabhupada is that his result is societies goal. His comforts, material comforts, his peace and relationship with man to man to benefit one's own self on a very false ego level.

Prabhupada: Hm. And...

Atreya Rsi: And...

Prabhupada: ...that is.

Atreya Rsi: ...he has no knowledge...

Syamasundara: "Humanitarian," he calls it.

Atreya Rsi: He's humanitarian. He has...

Prabhupada: What is that humanitarian?

Atreya Rsi: ...and that's what...

Prabhupada: I cheat you, you cheat me.

Syamasundara: No he says that, "Now, now, now the conditions that control us are haphazard. Some are designed by selfish men to exploit others."

Prabhupada: But why do we prove that he is perfect man?

Syamasundara: He says that we can design a culture that will survive due to its being moral, stay upright, honest, hard-working, all the Amer..., typical American... [laughs] Standards.

Karandhara: Who puts the standards? Someone has to, has to be God in order to set the standard. The conditioning.

Syamasundara: He said, "Between God and I, I must admit that God is next to [?] superior." I'll give you his exact quote. He says, "Between myself...," between himself... He says, "There is a curious similarity between himself and God, adding, however, that "Perhaps I must yield to God in point of seniority." He wants to play God.

Prabhupada: He wants to play God.

Syamasundara: He wants to design the culture.

Prabhupada: What is his conception of God?

Devotee: A [indistinct] collegue.

Syamasundara: Senior, a senior collegue.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Devotees: [laughter]

Prabhupada: We accept that. Nityo nityanam. [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13]

Devotees: [laughter]

Prabhupada: We accept that. That is Vedic. That is Vedic. He is also living being, but he is the superior, chief living being? That is. Just like we are also living beings, but you accept me as chief of the society. Similarly, there are innumerable living entities all over the universes, all over the creation, but he is the chief of them? That is God, leader. Our philosophy is to follow the leader, Krsna.

Devotee: But Skinner has no idea that there is an actual representative of God on earth that could set up such a perfect society. Therefore he is dreaming about setting up one in the future while his due representative is actually sitting with us now. He is thinking of the future.

Prabhupada: When, when he was thinking?

Devotee: He is thinking...

Syamasundara: Now.

Devotee: ...that someday... He is thinking that it can be done.

Syamasundara: He is living now.

Devotee: He is living now.

Prabhupada: He's living.

Syamasundara: This is his picture. [shows book to Prabhupada]

Prabhupada: Oh.

Syamasundara: It says, "Skinner playing the organ", and it quotes him, saying, "Yet, yet I am unhappy..."

Prabhupada: So inform him that, "Your theory is that God's representative..." He is expecting God's representative or what is that?

Devotee: No, no. He's...

Syamasundara: I'll tell you what he says about God. "He says that the belief in God arose due to man's inability to understand his world, but that man no longer needs such a fiction."

Prabhupada: Ah. Then one has to believe him?

Syamasundara: Yeah. Well some...

Karandhara: He also says that we have the capacity to take matters into our own hands. We don't have to, we don't have to loose it to some controller far away which we have no control over.

Prabhupada: But that you cannot do. You cannot take the question of birth, death, old age in your hands. How do you says that you shall be able to take affairs in your own hand?

Syamasundara: Well most, most scientists like that accept those problems as inescapable problems. But what...

Karandhara: Makes deal with this mind. [?]

Syamasundara: ...while we are here, let us have the best life we can.

Prabhupada: But if he can give the better life, where there is no death, there is no old age, there is no disease, why don't you accept it?

Karandhara: They will only accept that if it is within this life here. This life can remain eternal. They have no vision beyond this life, nor are they willing to accept [indistinct].

Prabhupada: That is your conclusion. This cannot be corrected. This cannot be corrected. That you cannot live. They accept it. But there, after death, it is done. But if we give some thought that after death you can attain, what don't you try it? After death, if there is a life of blissful and knowledge, blissful knowledge so what does they take it?

Karandhara: Well scientists, a lot of scientists consider that to be a, a simply a psychological way of avoiding the issue now. They say, "Let us take matters in hand right now. Don't try to..."

Prabhupada: What right, you have not been able to take in the matter in hand to stop death. That is not possible.

Karandhara: They think by endeavoring, they will. They say it took so long this idea that we have a life after this life. That's kept people complacent, without working up to their own improvement. Now if you cast of that idea, you hook that idea of an afterlife and you work here and now, then you will become...

Prabhupada: You are working. The dogs and hogs they are working, day and night. What they are missing? You say if you work, they are already working. They are already working-like animals, day and night. We sing that, sita atapa bata barisana e dina jamini jagi re [Bhajahū Re Mana 2]. They are already working what they are free?

Svarūpa Damodara: Scientists, science also agree that you can't avoid accidents.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarūpa Damodara: You can't avoid acc..., no one can avoid accidents. I had accident early morning. So you cannot predict or try to define this. [?]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarūpa Damodara: [indistinct] in a second. They understand that you cannot control this force of nature. From any moment...

Prabhupada: Yes. At any moment you can meet death.

Devotee: So they're the ones who have actually neglected taking, taking into consideration the real problems. They slide over the real problems, that is birth, death, old age and disease. And they, they are fiddling around in very small matters...

Syamasundara: Social problems.

Devotees:. Social problems...

Syamasundara: Political problems.

Prabhupada: The social problem will be automatically solved. If one becomes Krsna conscious, social problems will be solved automatically.

Atreya Rsi: The scientists have been offering a spiritual solution, but a spiritual solution also includes all other...

Prabhupada: All material solutions.

Atreya Rsi: And they are trying to solve the political problems, and they are unable. This is the fringe benefit...

Prabhupada: That means less intelligence. They have a poor fund of knowledge. And they are philosophising.

Syamasundara: For instance...

Atreya Rsi: And they have no, never succeeded in any [indistinct]...

Syamasundara: They call their process social engineering. For instance, they say, "A criminal does not become bad because of his..., that he is naturally bad but it's because of his environment. So that if he is trained in such a way he will be good, and we can..."

Prabhupada: Just like in, in the Western countries, the social environment, the killing of animals-it is taken not bad. In other societies it is taken as bad. Then how to adjust?

Syamasundara: Oh, I see. So...

Prabhupada: There are two contradictory societies.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: One society says that, "Nonviolence is nice, better," but another society says, "No-violence is better." Then how will adjust? Which society is good, which society bad? How he will decide?

Devotee: The animals.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: They have no way of deciding.

Prabhupada: But no. There is way. If you come to the Vedic life, then there is way.

Devotee: Yes.

Syamasundara: So we should propose this to Skinner.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: "We will accept your process if you take direction from us."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: He accepts that there should be some process, but he doesn't know what it is. He obviously has not...

Prabhupada: The process is, tad..., just like we, we say, Vedic injunction: sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. You must approach guru.

Atreya Rsi: His idea is that the process should be man-controlled.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Atreya Rsi: The process is controlled by man.

Prabhupada: It is man-controlled. It is man-controlled. Our society is being controlled by me.

Atreya Rsi: Yeah right but [indistinct] is surrender to God.

Syamasundara: He says..., he says that, "The best way to release the beneficial energy of the people is to build a world in which people are... Build a world in which people are naturally good, in which they are rewarded for wanting what is good for their culture."

Prabhupada: Yes. This is Krsna society. Here it is let him sell it. Let him come, let him understand.

Karandhara: His critics... The critics of this theory that we can condition everyone to a certain program...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: They are fearful that well someone unscrupulous will be riding us wrong.

Prabhupada: No. That we cannot take, I mean, to accept guru as unscrupulous. Therefore we say parampara. He is coming directly from God. He is perfect. Therefore this parampara system is bona fide. We cannot accept any rascal to become guru. Guru must be in the parampara system. Who is receiving the knowledge directly from God-he is perfect.

Syamasundara: This, this is their dilemma now, that they cannot find any standard of behavior. Formerly people's behavior was motivated by deprivation. They wanted more economic gain because there was hunger. But now we have everything, so no one wants to work anymore. So now there is nothing to satisfy people enough to make them behave.

Prabhupada: Therefore, therefore the Vedanta gives considering him: athato brahma-jijnasa. Now we have got enough to eat and enough to enjoy. Now you inquire about Brahman. This education is superior. So this is our Krsna consciousness movement. We are giving knowledge about Brahman, or the Supreme. We are not concerned about giving you some scientific invention, some this invention, that invention, this misgiving. We are giving the ultimate benefit. Now, just like I have come to America with this hope that, "Americans are not poverty stricken, they have no many problems. If I go there, if I speak to them about Krsna consciousness, they will be able to take." So if the human society has come to that standard. Then the next point is, now they should eat peacefully, sleep peacefully have sense gratification peacefully and making the mind peaceful-inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. This is ideal life.

Syamasundara: Well this, this, this will provide the stimulus which will..., so the people will react favorably, to behave favorably, simply by...

Prabhupada: That stimulus is...

Syamasundara: ...performing these activities?

Prabhupada: ...we have got experience that this material world is full of miseries. Everyone will be checked. Otherwise how, why he is trying to adjust?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Now we have got information from Bhagavad-gita,

Krsna says, "Anyone who comes to Me, back to home, back to Godhead, he does not come again to this material world which is full of misery." Mam upetya kaunteya duḥkhalayam asasvatam, napnuvanti...

Syamasundara: But then what is the stimulus? Why will they...?

Prabhupada: This is stimulus. You are bothered in so many miserable condition of life and we are offering that, "You take to Krsna consciousness, you go to a place where only there is blissful life and knowledge." What is that?

Pradyumna: A-brahma-bhuvanal lokaḥ [Bg 8.16].

Prabhupada: Na. Mam upetya.

Pradyumna: Mam upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. "From the highest planet in this material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death takes place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again."

Prabhupada: So there are many abodes. There are many planets, that is a fact. So there is a planet where Krsna lives and if you go there, you live perfectly. You are trying to go to the moon planet, but here it says, a-brahma-bhuvanal lokaḥ punar avartino... What is that?

Syamasundara: So we have to condition people that every time they press our button, Hare Krsna button, they get some pleasure.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: You know, then they will accept...

Prabhupada: Anandambudhi-vardhanam. Ceto-darpana... Every time he gets some higher knowledge and his dirty heart becomes cleansed. And therefore his spiritual beliefs becomes increased.

Syamasundara: We have...

Prabhupada: Whereas in the material world, what is said, a-brahma-bhuvanal lokaḥ...

Pradyumna: Punar avartino 'rjuna. Again returning. Mam upetya tu kaunteya punar janma...

Prabhupada: Na vidyate. Now read the translation.

Pradyumna: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again."

Prabhupada: In the material world there are higher planetary system, lower planetary system and you sometimes go higher planetary, sometimes down, according to your karma. But wherever you remain, you cannot avoid birth, death, old age and disease. "But if you come to My planet, then there is no more birth." What is the objection of Mr. Skinner?

Syamasundara: He, he only wants to find out. He doesn't know himself what is the satifaction...

Prabhupada: He doesn't know anything. He is a fool. What does he know? He has to learn.

Devotee: Yes, he, he more or less admits that he is not a perfect personality...

Prabhupada: So how, who he accepts as perfect?

Syamasundara: "I am not happy." "I am not happy."

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: He say, "I am not happy."

Prabhupada: Nobody is happy. How you can be happy? Nobody in this material world can be happy. How you can be, you are also one of them. Why you are claiming a better position? Nobody can be happy. We say nobody can be happy. Duḥkhalayam asasvatam [Bg 8.15]. Anyone who is living in this material world cannot be happy.

Devotee: It seems like Skinner should be very right, or that he is very right, because he wants there to be a society where it is controlled and, and ah... people.

Prabhupada: So let him come and study this society. He is a philosopher and he's an intelligent. Invite him.

Syamasundara: What, what about this statement? He says that, "I can take any person at young age, any person with me, any person, and I can, at random, and I can train him to become any type of specialist I might select. Doctor, lawyer, even beggarman and thief, regardless of his talents or his nature, his tendencies or his abilities."

Prabhupada: So that means training should be given from childhood. That is the whole idea.

Syamasundara: But is, is that true? Is that?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: We can train anyone to become anything.

Prabhupada: Anything. Just like there, there is the story, the Tarjan. Tarjan.

Syamasundara: Tarzan?

Prabhupada: Yes. And he was living in the society of monkey and he learned how to jump from one tree to another.

Devotees: [laughter]

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada can you give [indistinct] to someone who has a natural ksatriya tendency, he cannot really become a Vaisnava?

Prabhupada: No. There is no such barrier. Anyone can become Krsna. Anyone.

Atreya Rsi: Vaisnava yes. [indistinct] but he doesn't.

Prabhupada: Just... just like...

Atreya Rsi: What about brahmana?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: Brahmana too? Someone who is just naturally a sūdra. How can he become brahmana?

Prabhupada: No, by training.

Syamasundara: Everyone has become sūdra now. Everyone is, you say everyone is born sūdra.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: In the Vedic age wouldn't everyone want to become a brahmana? Why, why train someone as a sūdra?

Karandhara: It is progressive, progressive. It takes time. It is a whole progressive path. That is the whole Vedic culture, that everyone, no matter what stage [indistinct]...

Prabhupada: And all the sūdras can be made brahmanas. But where the sūdras are coming? Are the sūdras are ready to become brahmana? Then how you can? We are inviting everyone to become Krsna conscious.

Syamasundara: He is just saying, he is just saying that it is possible that you can mold anyone into anything.

Prabhupada: Yes. Well yes. Possible, yes.

Syamasundara: But if they won't accept, if they won't accept...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is karma.

Syamasundara: But he says there is no possibility of them not accepting, if you form the conditions in such a way.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: They must accept by conditioning.

Prabhupada: Yes. That, that is also possible. But who is going to that? Make that permanent?

Karandhara: Who, who can so supremely control all conditions that would free one from karmic reaction? All the karmic reactions. How could they control the environment that indefinately?

Syamasundara: By punishment and reward. For instance by punishing them when they are wrong...

Karandhara: Say he had a house, and he was doing that, and all of a sudden there was a flood came and the house came... [indistinct] How could he could control the environment [indistinct]?

Syamasundara: No of a person, not, not of a house.

Karandhara: That is what I mean. That how he can could control the environment if that person is going to be punished or rewarded when he wants him to be punished or rewarded?

Prabhupada: No he says from childhood.

Syamasundara: He is talking about a child. Infant.

Prabhupada: Infant. Yes. That is possible. That is possible. Just like our children, from childhood they are dancing.

Syamasundara: Here is a picture of his child. He put his child in a box when it was born. Now this is her today, twenty-seven years later. He conditioned her in this box for a year.

Devotee: How long?

Syamasundara: Some time. And she came out better, healthier and happier than normal children, because they kept the temperature the same, because it was germ-free, there was no disease and always cleaned by rotating...

Prabhupada: That means he protected the child from all calamities.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that is fortunate. If you can protect... Therefore I repeatedly said that our Dallas center should be taken very much important place. All our children must go.

Syamasundara: Make the environment just perfect.

Prabhupada: Yes. That I have repeatedly said.

Karandhara: He may built a box, he cannot control the environment.

Prabhupada: No, no, box, he has put in box, how we have got different box?

Devotees: [laughter]

Prabhupada: That is another thing. But the protection is required.

Karandhara: His supposition of being able to control the environment completely is imperfect, because he can't control the environment perfectly. Even if he builds the child a box, say there is a fire in the house and the box burns down? How he controls that environment?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Syamasundara: No he doesn't [indistinct]. Right now the level of their experiments are relatively small. For instance, they have created teaching machines where a child is put in front of the machine and a question is asked and if the child answers it correctly he gets a reward.

Prabhupada: This is another nonsense, you see. The thing is that the Vedic conception of raising children-brahmacari-that system is perfect.

Syamasundara: Not by machine.

Prabhupada: No, this is rascaldom.

Atreya Rsi: Prabhupada there is...

Prabhupada: We are not machines.

Syamasundara: No. But he says that when the answer is given correctly by the child, then he is rewarded by the machine.

Prabhupada: But after..., the answers and questions are already there. They can take advantage of that.

Karandhara: Well one of there what...

Prabhupada: Just like we say that tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. There is question and answer. Therefore in, in order to understand the transcendental science, he must go to guru, gurum evabhigacchet. And then what is the symptom of guru? Samit-paniḥsrotriyam brahma-nistham. Guru means who has learned knowledge by the parampara system. Srotriyam brahma and the result is that he is perfectly a devotee.

Syamasundara: Suppose we had a machine and one of our children was given the question "Who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead?" And then there were three possibilities and she pushed, "Krsna." And then, "Oh!" Some reward came out. Then she would...

Prabhupada: No, no he has to put some button...

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: ...to take out Krsna.

Syamasundara: To take the answer. He has three choices: Krsna, Durga, Kali. Which one is the Supreme Personality? So if he chooses Krsna and then he gets rewarded. So in the future he will always think Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Prabhupada: So why machine? Why not take a, a live master?

Devotee: Yes. He says that, that can be done also.

Prabhupada: Ah.

Devotee: It's just that as he's saying that they should be rewarded when they say the right answer.

Syamasundara: No he says that this will solve the problem of not enough teachers in our schools, public schools. There is not enough teachers for the children. There are huge classes of children and only one teacher.

Prabhupada: Ah.

Syamasundara: So there's not enough individual time given to each student.

Prabhupada: So why not produce many teachers? That we are trying to do.

Syamasundara: No one wants to teach anymore.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: No one wants to teach anymore.

Prabhupada: Why?

Karandhara: They don't know what to teach.

Prabhupada: Just because they do not know how to teach, and there cheating teaching has failed.

Syamasundara: They don't get enough pay, so many reasons.

Prabhupada: Our teachers do not ask any payment. They go and freely. So why don't you take advantage of these teachers?

Karandhara: One thing they refer to Prabhupada. That when we speak in terms of the Vedic culture, and Vedic techniques. They, they say well, if that Vedic technique and Vedic culture was previously existing, then why did it devolve? Why did it fall apart and now we have to make some new way?

Prabhupada: That, for a new way, cannot. If you want perfection, you must take to Vedic culture because it is not with the four defects of human being. Anything introduced for... Just like we are pushing on this Krsna consciousness movement, and some of the students are falling back. What can be done? That is not the defect of the institution. That is some other power. So people might have fallen from the standard of Vedic culture, but they cannot invent any new. That is not.

Karandhara: Well that is the same thing they say about the scientific process. The scientific process isn't imperfect, it is just that there are attempts to masters that are imperfect.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: The empiric process.

Prabhupada: Ah.

Karandhara: That's there claim that the empiric process is perfect. Yet we haven't, we haven't understood it or we haven't developed it to perfection.

Syamasundara: For instance, they would say if our students are falling back, it is because of the environment.

Prabhupada: They are not all falling back. Some of them.

Syamasundara: Some of them...

Prabhupada: So that is possible anywhere.

Syamasundara: So he says, "Ideally, if the, if our environment was conditioned in such a way that they were rewarded for doing good things and punished for doing bad things, that they would not go away.

Prabhupada: If they will be punished, but they don't care for punishment.

Atreya Rsi: Prabhupada there is, there is...

Prabhupada: Just like, you say in the lawbooks that if you steal, you'll be arrested, but they don't care for your lawbook, they steal. What can you do? That independence is already there. The lawbook says that if you commit theft you will be punished, and he is actually punished. But if he doesn't care for punishment, then how what can you do? Punishment is already there.

Syamasundara: For instance, he gives an example that, let's say that in an institution there is lunch served for one hour between twelve and one, and at one o'clock the door is closed and locked, sharply. So that automatically everyone will want to come before one o'clock, to eat otherwise they will be punished and not be...

Prabhupada: That's all right if anyone prefers to starve, they may not come. That law will be not be obligatory to a person who prefers to starve.

Karandhara: That is the point. That's, that's what his critics make a difference to. He said that free will can be essentially eliminated and you no longer...

Prabhupada: No.

Karandhara: ...have the choice to be agreeable or not agreeable.

Prabhupada: No. That is not possible...

Syamasundara: He's saying, "This child..."

Prabhupada: That is another foolishness.

Syamasundara: "...if he was ever trained that if he ever misses a meal he will be severly punished. Then he may never want to miss a meal."

Karandhara: Or he may never even want to take a meal out of rebelliousness.

Syamasundara: [laughs] He says. Actually, his idea is not so much to punish but to reward.

Prabhupada: Now this, this is the concrete example, that a thief has learned from the lawbooks, from the religious books, that stealing is bad. If one steals he'll be punished. Because in the human society the scriptures they have got. No scripture will say that you steal, for example. Neither the lawbook will say that you steal. So he has heard from scriptures and from lawbooks that stealing is criminal, and by committing this criminal activity I shall be punished, and if he has seen also that anyone who has violated this law and stolen others' property. He has been arrested by the policeman and given him to the jail. He has seen, he has heard, he has completely experienced, but still, why does he steal? What is the answer?

Karandhara: Compelled.

Devotee: Because he sees them as human being.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: He has a tendency because of the four defects of a human being that tendency...

Prabhupada: Then, then the question means, how to rectify these defects?

Syamasundara: He says, "By changing the social environment."

Karandhara: Yes.

Syamasundara: By changing the social environment.

Prabhupada: But you cannot do.

Devotee: But in a higher sense change the social environment can only change with nature...

Prabhupada: The social environment is already there, but if you steal you will be punished. The social environment is there.

Syamasundara: But his idea is that if you reward them for not stealing that they will not steal. If you reward them sufficiently.

Atreya Rsi: He's reward them...

Prabhupada: First of all let him come to the point-not stealing. Then you devise. Where is your devise?

Syamasundara: Yes [indistinct]

Prabhupada: He is determined to steal. Where is the question of devise?

Syamasundara: Well you pay him more than he wants to steal.

Prabhupada: That you cannot. That you cannot. That is impermanent.

Atreya Rsi: This reward and punishment system, Prabhupada, is motivational.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Atreya Rsi: His reward and punishment it's not that you pay him more or you pay him less or you punish him. The thing is, he says that...

Prabhupada: No, no. Even if you pay. Suppose I am going to steal and get one dollar.

Atreya Rsi: The reason...

Prabhupada: And if you pay me three dollars, I may not, may not steal.

Atreya Rsi: No he'll not...

Prabhupada: Then, then next point will be when there will be four dollars, I'll go on to steal.

Atreya Rsi: No. He is not going to pay you three and four dollars. What he is suggesting is the reason one steals is not so much that. There are other reasons, like he likes to break the law because he is angry to the law.

Prabhupada: Therefore the question, why he likes to break the law? That is the question.

Atreya Rsi: That is a good question. Because he is angry or he thinks that his friends would appreciate him more, and he thinks that his friends are more important. That is why he thinks that if you change the social environment then the rewards would come...

Prabhupada: How you can change the social environment?

Atreya Rsi: Well that's the ideal...

Syamasundara: Those rewards are quantitative. Just like the pigeon he gets a certain number of kernels of corn.

Atreya Rsi: But this is an estimate...

Syamasundara: So it's a great choice.

Atreya Rsi: An estimate is foolish. It's quantitative example, but his real point is the motivational field.

Syamasundara: Well how do you know? You don't know what he's saying.

Atreya Rsi: I know Skinner.

Syamasundara: This is what he said. He said, "Each time that a criminal is given..., each time that he avoids doing bad, he is given some advantage", a material advantage.

Karandhara: So we understand that material advantage doesn't satisfy him. He becomes more...

Syamasundara: That is the difference between the pigeons and the men. The pigeons are satisfied with a few kernels of corn. They won't want more than they can eat. But a man wants more and more and more.

Karandhara: In the Bhagavad-gita Arjuna asks the same question.

Prabhupada: So this is important point, in that if what you are thinking to reward him, just now. He will think it is insignificant. What are you giving here. You are giving me five dollars, if I steal I will get twenty-five dollars. Why shall I accept your reward?

Syamasundara: So what about if I don't steal, my friends will like me. If I do steal, my friends will hate me.

Prabhupada: Ah, but if you have got friends only thieves, then who will object? "Oh, you are very nice, you are very expert." Why should he mix with such friends who deride?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Karandhara: In the Bhagavad-gita [laughs]

Prabhupada: He will select his own friends...

Syamasundara: He says there are three things that keep...

Prabhupada: Birds of the same feather flock together.

Syamasundara: He says that there is three things that society has which keeps people from disobeying, that is God...

Prabhupada: This is all speculating. It has no meaning.

Syamasundara: ...God, the police, and what other people will think.

Prabhupada: But if he has..., you have to..., if you have no idea of God, what is God. And why am I expecting that you will fear God? You do not know what is God, and you are talking of God.

Karandhara: Well he says social environment in the highest essence that has to lead to meaning controlling nature.

Prabhupada: There they..., the thing is that these are all childish proposals. The real thing is that he should be educated. He should be educated. This is required.

Syamasundara: The they...

Prabhupada: He should be educated from the very beginning that, "You are not this body." This is the beginning of education.

[aside:] While talking don't disturb in that way. Stop that.

So education is required. Without education these things cannot be taught-by rewarding, by this way, by that way, by machine, by... It is all nonsense...

Syamasundara: An interesting...

Prabhupada: Education. The education is, the first education is that every children should be taught from the very beginning that, "You are not this body." And he should be taught the nature of the soul. Then he will gradually come to the Supreme Soul. Then he will gradually come to the relationship between the Supreme Soul and this individual soul. And then he'll, when he develops love for the Supreme Soul he will not violate the order of the Supreme. That is our Krsna consciousness movement.

Syamasundara: Just like Sarasvati. She thinks Krsna lives in her heart...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ..and she's always thinking that.

Prabhupada: Yes. She, she is hearing, she is being educated in that point, so she is now feeling. Similarly if we educate all our children in that way, they will be nicely grown-up children.

Syamasundara: There is an interesting comparison to be made. They have tried to set up a community along this philosophy just near our New Vrindavan. This is, this is the place, in the hills of Virginia, and some of the... It's interesting to see what their code is compared to ours. Their code is that, "All are entitled to the same privileges, advantages and respect. Private property is forbidden except for such things as books and clothes, and even then there is community clothing which is all shared. No one is allowed to boast of individual accomplishment or to gossip or to have any negative speech or to be intolerant of any other's beliefs."

Prabhupada: So you cannot be. It is simply dream. It is simply dream, it will be never be fruitful. But our philosophy is that everyone is thinking as servant of Krsna. Therefore he has no competition, he has no competition. He wants to serve Krsna, the center is there.

Syamasundara: He says that's the main difficulty, is that. That there is still competition going on.

Prabhupada: It will much go on, because he has not changed the mind. He, he..., the mind is how to become master. So as soon as you want to become master, I want to become master, he wants to, there must be competition. But our teaching is different. If we become servant, servant of Krsna. Even there is competition, so that competition is centering Krsna.

Syamasundara: Their process is-if someone obeys these laws, he is reinforced. That means they'll put a sign up saying, "So and so cleaned up..."

Prabhupada: Go on this is a nonsense. Putting signboard. This is nonsense... Unless..., that is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's formula: ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart. That is the process. By putting signboard, philosophy cannot be..., that is not possible.

Syamasundara: They put a sign that. "So and so cleaned this room today. He is a good boy."

Prabhupada: He will clean automatically provided he is clean hearted.

Devotee: That is the difference. [indistinct]

Syamasundara: Yeah. Another thing is that they reject the idea of modesty and sin. They say that sex is all right. It's a pleasant pastime like anything else. Alright they have freedom of sex life.

Prabhupada: Just like animals. Sex life like animals.

Syamasundara: It's what it says.

Prabhupada: Him? He must say that. He is also animal.

Syamasundara: They do not reinforce sex, the sin, the sin of sex life.

Prabhupada: Sex life, we don't say it is sin, but there is rules and regulation of sex life.

Syamasundara: However, they, they have contraceptive methods, because to bring children into the equation at this time is not good.

Prabhupada: That is nonsense. [laughs] That is the difficulty, that these people are coming as philosophers teaching. Rascals. That is the difficulty of the present society.

Devotee: They call...

Prabhupada: That they accept. The dogs, hogs, camels, asses. They are taking the position of teacher. That is the defect of the modern.

Syamasundara: They make...

Prabhupada: We don't take it, accept like that. Dogs, hogs, we cannot accept teacher.

Syamasundara: They are making life into an equation, like a mathematical formula. Teaching like that. But it doesn't work.

Prabhupada: It will not work.

Syamasundara: They prove it. It says that they have a seventy-percent turnover. That means that people get disgusted and leave, seventy percent of them every year.

Prabhupada: Leave?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Go away.

Syamasundara: Go away.

Syamasundara: Because it says that those who are more competent, they still expect special recognition for their talents. And they..., so they make this demand but we cannot reinforce that, that kind of behavior. So we deny them and then they go away.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: So it seems that the whole philosophy [indistinct] control society [indistinct] and then the point that they are. The whole material world is attached to sex life, so that the whole thing is that all these philosophies that are just invented. So that they may have liberty in thinking that they are free and that they may be active...

Prabhupada: Yes,

Devotee: ...in an animal way.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: And so, and so it's a whole thing. All these philosophy so I can have free sex life so I don't have to think that I'll be punished by having this freedom in their life.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: They want to justify it...

Prabhupada: Real, real point is sense gratification. Freedom of sense gratification. That is their point. But these fools, they do not know that by sense gratification you are entangling yourself-in repetition of birth and death.

Syamasundara: So Skinner nonetheless, nonetheless allows himself some relaxation. He drinks vodka and tonic in the late afternoon [laughter]. He sees an occasional movie. He reads George Simon detective novels once in awhile and enjoys the company of friends. He has two children and his grandchildren. Here is a note from his diary: "Sun streams into our living-room. My hi-fi is midway through the first act of Tristan and Isolde. A very pleasant environment. A man would be a fool not to enjoy himself in it. In a moment I will work on a manuscript which may help mankind. So my life is not only pleasant; it is earned or deserved. And yet, yet, I am unhappy."

Prabhupada: In that sense he is a truthful man.

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Truthful.

Syamasundara: He wants to..., try. He is trying to understand.

Prabhupada: He cannot. That is not the way of understanding. The Vedic way is that you first approach a guru. That is Vedic way. He cannot personally solve all these things. That is not possible.

Syamasundara: So true... [End]