Huxley, Thomas Henry

Syamasundara: Today we are discussing two more scientists. Who came after Darwin, evolutionists. The first one is Thomas Huxley. Darwin saw that only that in nature there was a natural selection process and he called that evolution, survival of the fittest. But Huxley...

Prabhupada: There, here is the mistake. Natural selection, nature is not selecting. The soul-is selecting. It, it, it is not that nature is selecting a certain type of house. It is the man who will reside in the house-he is selecting the type of house. You cannot say that there are different types of residential houses. In nature, nature can supply the ingredients. You require bricks, stone, wood, so many things you require. Nature will supply, "All right, you take this," but the type of the house that-you make, not nature makes. So there, here is a great mistake that nature is selecting. Nature is not selecting the soul-is selecting and that they do not know. They, we, we should be practical. When I, I prefer a table like this it is-my selection, not nature's selection. Nature can supply me the wood and I prepare according to my selection.

Syamasundara: But, but my selection must depend upon the conditions. If it is cold I must build a warm house, if it is hot I must build a cool house...

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be the selection is mine, not natures.

Syamasundara: But don't I select in terms of the conditions?

Prabhupada: You compare, the actual performer is the soul not nature. Nature can supply you the materials.

Syamasundara: But if, if ah it is cold you must build a warm house so that means nature is selecting which type of house.

Prabhupada: No, nature you are selecting. You are feeling cold...

Syamasundara: But if you build a cold house you'll, you'll suffer, you won't survive.

Prabhupada: No, no why shall I... When I feel cold naturaly I will select to make a warm house.

Atreya Rsi: The theory is that if you do not select...

Prabhupada: Ah.

Atreya Rsi: ..the warm house the nature will select to destroy you. And once nature destroys you because you did not select the most intelligent decision...

Prabhupada: No...

Atreya Rsi: ...why did not have...

Prabhupada: My... My brain... First of all my selection. Just like when I become criminal I select my life in the jail.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Syamasundara: Oh I see.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: That they don't understand.

Prabhupada: Anyway, this rascal thing that the judge or the magistrate puts him in the jail. The judge and the magistrate has no business to put him in the jail, why? You are selecting.

Syamasundara: So nature will present a set, a set of laws and you select either to follow them or reject them?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita [Bg 13.22]: karanam guna-sahgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu.

[aside:] take them, hurry.

Devotee: Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Yes. These different species of life is due to his selection of a particular mode of nature. The souls. And thus he is given the facility of taking birth in a certain type of species. Just like I am, I have got house for rental; now I ask you what sort of room you want. You say, "I can pay $100"...

Syamasundara: Oh you get what you pay.

Prabhupada: Yes, determined, determined. The selection is yours, so this, these rascals this do not know. Nature is forcing but the original selection was mine. I selected to associate with... The nature has got three types of modes of nature. So as soon as I associate with certain... Just like here, here is also nature is working. It is working on the modes of goodness but the drunkard is not coming here, he is not selecting this. He is selecting the brothel.

Atreya Rsi: This also applies to all living entities Prabhupada, right?

Prabhupada: All living entities. Yes.

Atreya Rsi: Even the trees, even...

Prabhupada: Everything...

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Prabhupada: Everything, just like I told you that consciously or unconsciously this naked boys and girls in your country they will get next life tree.

Syamasundara: Supposing a seed of a tree falls on the ground, isn't it nature that determines whether it will grow or live or be stunted or grow big by the conditions of the, the rain and the snow?

Prabhupada: Yes nature gives you the facility-how to grow.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Prabhupada: That's all right but the selection is mine. There is a landlord gives you the facility, you select the apartment. Then you ask landlord, "Sir I want this facility or this that pipe is not working or the heat is not working." So he helps you.

Syamasundara: And then if you don't deserve it you don't get the heat fixted or the pipes.

Prabhupada: Yes. So first thing is that it is wrong premises. That nature is giving, no. The first [break]...

Karandhara: They don't see any background causing nature. They just see natures effects.

Prabhupada: Nature is father's servant, nonsense. Such a gigantic nature is working whimsically because he is whimsical.

Atreya Rsi: So Prabhupada, according to our philosophy then there is nothing that happens in nature which is without reason.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: That is out of just-luck or chance.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Prabhupada: Mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ sūyate sa-caracaram [Bg 9.10]. Read.

Pradyumna: It's a

Prabhupada: First of all explane this, explanation.

Pradyumna: "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."

Prabhupada: That's it. That is it.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Prabhupada: His association. Now we associate with drunkards, brothels then we get next life a hog, a camel.

Syamasundara: Hm. He advised change by association...

Prabhupada: Not that a human body evolves to a camel's body. According to that theory he cannot do.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: He cannot do. But here we just get I shall even if you have got this human body next life you become a camel body. But your, your evolution theory is finished then.

Karandhara: Think of it a giant wardrobe and you have 8,400,000 coats...

Prabhupada: Ah.

Karandhara: And you decide, you tell the tailor which coat you want...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: And he supplies.

Syamasundara: So you have to pay for it.

Prabhupada: Yes... So according to Bhagavad-gita this, this kind of evolutionary theory is not actual. Evolution is there you get there it is Brahma-vaivarta Purana. Eh? It is said: asitim caturams caiva laksams tan jiva-jatisu; 8,400,000 of species of life; jiva-jati. There from a bee, from a, the, the living entity is passing through. From a bee, then he gradually gets the human form of life, tad apy abhalatam jataḥ. Now this opportunity is missed if he does not take shelter of Krsna. If he takes shelter again of the three modes of material nature then next life he can be converted again, punar mūsiko bhava. They do not know that-the human being can evolve next life the body of a cat, dog or camel. So where is the truth of this nonsense evolution?

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada does the, does the spirit soul assist in the building of his own body or is the body in the womb built simply on the modes of nature? Does he help or is he just given the body?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Syamasundara: Does the spirit soul assist in building the body or does... Simply the ingredients of nature combined to form it without his help in the womb?

Prabhupada: Yes. He desires a such body and he is put into the womb of a particular mother and the mother is the format. So he develops a body according to the mother.

Syamasundara: Oh the body is already formed by the mother?

Prabhupada: No, no-it begins forming as soon as the spirit soul takes shelter.

Syamasundara: Then it forms.

Prabhupada: Then it forms, develops.

Syamasundara: Before then it is the egg?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: The egg.

Prabhupada: Nothing. There is nothing.

Syamasundara: Nothing.

Prabhupada: After sexual intercourse the two kinds of secretion they mixup and emulsify and immediately if there is no disturbance by contraceptive method. Then the living entity takes shelter.

Syamasundara: They say, the scientists say that each sperm which is entering from the male is a living entity. Each of millions of sperms...

Prabhupada: May, maybe, maybe.

Syamasundara: When the, the sperm enter there are millions of them...

Prabhupada: That's all right...

Syamasundara: And each one is moving...

Prabhupada: That can be accepted, that there is God.

Syamasundara: Hm. But only one out of those will enter the egg, only one out of those millions.

Prabhupada: Not egg, one, one of them who is allowed to stay-by superior arrangement.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Atreya Rsi: So Prabhupada this material philosophy is based on chance. In other words the material philosophy, the materialist philosophy does not believe in the cause of all causes.

Prabhupada: That, that is nonsense. Every... There is no chance.

Atreya Rsi: This, but in the spiritual philosophy they also use the word chance and luck.

Prabhupada: Why?

Atreya Rsi: They also state that there is chance in the spiritual life.

Prabhupada: Chance means just like we are talking of philosophy. Somebody by chance comes in this meeting...

Atreya Rsi: How is that Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Atreya Rsi: How is that somebody comes...

Prabhupada: That is possibility, then otherwise what is the use of preaching.

Atreya Rsi: But that person...

Prabhupada: We are preaching means that that there is the cause because we are giving chance.

Atreya Rsi: So the chances spiritualised is created by the mercy of the master or Krsna?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: It's not that is caused, is caused by, his cause derived...

Prabhupada: We are giving, we are inviting everyone please come to us. So this chance is given.

Atreya Rsi: This is chance-this is luck. You provide the luck.

Prabhupada: He is creating a situation so that others may take the chance. That chance you can say but this chance is also caused by us.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Syamasundara: But what do you mean when you say causeless? Causeless mercy.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: Causeless.

Prabhupada: Causeless mercy is that, that is-you did not ask me, a still I give you.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Atreya Rsi: Haribol.

Prabhupada: You do not ask me, you did not ask me, nobody, to come to USA. I have come-this is causeless.

Devotees: [Laughter] Jaya.

Syamasundara: Well should we discuss this...

Prabhupada: But that is also not strictly causeless because I have come on the order of my Guru Maharaja.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Syamasundara: But his order was causeless.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotees: [Laughter]

Atreya Rsi: Krsna is causeless.

Syamasundara: Ah?

Prabhupada: So actually in the higher sense there is nothing causeless. You can take it in this way just like I have come, let me go to America. So I have come, nobody invited me. It can be taken as causeless.

Syamasundara: The only things that relate with Krsna are causeless.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: Only things as they are related with Krsna are causeless. Isn't it? If they are... Otherwise we can see everywhere cause and effect.

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna can be... Make anything without any cause. Because He is the cause of all causes, He is making, therefore He is this prime cause.

Karandhara: So when scientists observe phenomena and they are just observing how Krsna has caused things. It is the consecutive sequence how He causes...

Prabhupada: Parasya saktir... He is working by His diverse energies. They are unable to see the energy. Or they are seeing simply the energy not the energetic.

Atreya Rsi: Prabhupada shouldn't we refute the system of investigation which is ascending rather than descending process? The scientists way. Could they find any, try and find any truths? That this system that they are investigating, like the way Darwin investigated could he possibly have come to find the truth?

Prabhupada: No.

Atreya Rsi: He couldn't..

Prabhupada: Because Darwin is himself defective. So his ascendancy is also defective.

Syamasundara: They, they would send it out as far as they can go, a chunk but they don't know [laughs]... How much further.

Prabhupada: The process is defective...

Atreya Rsi: The process is defective...

Prabhupada: He cannot go to the real road. Suppose you have to go to the beach. Now you have taken to this road for going. Where you will go? The beach is this side. So in the beginning he is mistaken then where is the goal?

Syamasundara: [laughs] Yeah.

Prabhupada: Andha yathandhair upaniyamanaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Blind. One blind man is trying to lead other blind men.

Syamasundara: Should, should we discuss this Thomas Huxley? Systematically just his philosophy particularly.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Because I don't want to go off on too many tangents or we will never finish. His, anyway he saw that there are two types of evolution not strictly one type as Darwin saw. He, Darwin saw that there is only one type, a changing of bodies. That, but Thomas Huxley observes that there is also ethical process of human evolution. In other words, according to, to Darwin's law, that bodies are changing according to survival of the fittest. But if you look at that on ethical level that would mean those who are the goo... the best cheaters, the best killers, the best robbers. That these would be the most morally fit to survive in that [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Might is right.

Syamasundara: Yeah. But he says, "No, that there is an ethical process of human evolution whereby educating, by education of what is the correct morality that we can evolve in that way. That, that we are..." The control of our evolution is in our own hands, in other words. "It is not nature... Nature is not guiding ethical evolution but it is within our hands to evolve our own ethical evolution."

Prabhupada: [coughs] Within our hands, just like I say that, "You don't steal." [coughs]. This is ethical. And I give you example also, that if you steal you will see that here is a thief he is arrested he is going to jail. You will also go to jail. So you have heard me, you have seen but a still you steal. What is the defect? [coughs] Where is the ethics?

Syamasundara: The ethics...

Prabhupada: You have heard from preachers that stealing is not good. From your teachers, from your nice books, stealing is not good. You have seen the man who has stolen is going to jail and still why you steal it?

Syamasundara: He says, he would say that, "The man has not been properly educated."

Prabhupada: Therefore that is required. Education.

Syamasundara: That's what he said. He said, he says, "Darwin's theory is those who are fit survive but it should be that those who are worthy to survive." So he says, "We have to qualify ourselves to be worthy to survive."

Prabhupada: Nobody is fit to survive, that is a nonsense thing. But one can elevate himself, just like we are trying to elevate the consciousness of the human society to Krsna consciousness. This is educational process. And by this education when actually one becomes Krsna conscious then he becomes fit to survive. Not to die again.

Syamasundara: Worth, worthy, he has the worth to survive.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Fit, fit is something different than worth.

Prabhupada: Hah.

Syamasundara: Fit is a physical...

Prabhupada: Or you can say he's not going, no more he is going to die.

Karandhara: Well the only real virtue of their so called ethics. It doesn't take into account devotional service to the Supreme. It just extends the principle of sense gratification.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: That I won't steal from him, so he won't steal from me.

Syamasundara: Well that, that isn't part of the philosophy. We were just using the general terms.

Karandhara: But when they say ethics that's, that's what they are alluding to.

Syamasundara: You don't know what he means, we haven't unfolded his philosophy yet.

Prabhupada: Now one thing is. This training, education means-training. This is essential and actually by educational evolution one can survive. Otherwise nobody can survive.

Syamasundara: That's, that's his thesis. He says that Darwin's theory is too mechanical and logically it is false because we would all be a society of murderers, killers and the might makes right. But...

Prabhupada: That is the European philosophy.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: They are attacking other nations, colonising, killing them. Just like you Americans you have killed the Indians, now you are fit to survive there. And the Russians will come and kill you.

Karandhara: Even the application of ethics, you have to have force.

Syamasundara: He uses the example of the Europeans and some barbaric tribes in Africa. That the European consciousness has evolved to superior level because they have adopted morality. Whereas the tribes in the jungles are killing each other simply and there is no morality they are not very superior in intelligence. He uses that example.

Prabhupada: Then how the Europeans and Americans have come to this morality?-By education.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: The others they are not educated, they are not enlightened. Therefore real education is the cause of evolution to the highest perfection.

Syamasundara: During, during this period of history following Huxley there was a widespread belief that by educ... If everyone got enough education then everything would be improved, everyone would live properly but and that is still going on. That concept but it's... The education...

Prabhupada: No, everyone cannot be enough education. Everyone cannot be enough rich.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Everyone cannot be enough beautiful...

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: By nature's that is also another and everyone cannot take birth in a high family.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: That is not possible. That depends on his past deeds.

Syamasundara: Ah, so their democracy is...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: Their democracy is not logical?

Prabhupada: Then, then you have to take chance, that same moment. One child is born in a very rich family at the same moment one is born. If you take an astronomical calculation that both is getting the astronomical facilities but one is born in a poor family, one is born in a rich family.

Syamasundara: And if you educate them both the same. It does not mean that they are both going to turn out as good citizens.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes so many boys are going to school some of them becoming in future very well known personality, another ordinary. Why?

Syamasundara: So the...

Prabhupada: Educational facility was given to both of them. Eh? Just like in your country the education is free but why not all educated?

Atreya Rsi: So there are two factors, one resulting from past activity and one resulting from the present education...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Atreya Rsi: ...provided?

Prabhupada: Yes. There are three; bija, kūtastha... Ah. Just like you, you sow some seeds though some of them grow, next day. And not that all the seeds have grown, another seed will take a little time to grow. So really whatever we act that is just like seed...

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that seed it remains and some of the seeds has grown little, some of them has fructified, some of them is getting gaining the result and you have to enjoy or suffer.

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Prabhupada: But everything is coming from the seed.

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Prabhupada: Papa-bija, papa-bija. Eh? Kūtastha, phalonmukha... There are three stages, one is just going to fructify, one is already fructified, one is still in seed form. The... We have got many seeds within us that is not yet fructified. What is fructified now we are enjoying or suffering.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: But Kr... When you take to Krsna consciousness this very seed is destroyed. So there is no question of coming out fructified. There is seed, just like you take peas if you fry it and then the same fried peas if you sow there will be no more.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Plant.

Syamasundara: The scientists call these seeds perhaps genes? The genes are latent propensities.

Prabhupada: No, it is not genes.

Karandhara: It is karmic law.

Devotees: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: The scientist cannot see it.

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is not possible. It is subtle. It is living in my mind, intelligence and ego. They cannot... Can they see the mind?

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Then how can they see it?

Atreya Rsi: So material education is how to take care of these seeds once they fructify?

Prabhupada: Yes. That's it.

Atreya Rsi: Spiritual education however...

Prabhupada: Spiritual education is to destroy that seed.

Atreya Rsi: And to start the seed of devotional service...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: ..to plant of...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: ...love of God

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: To destroy the material seed and sow the spiritual seed.

Syamasundara: Accept what it is favorable or reject what is unfavourable.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: So both seeds are there.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Atreya Rsi: Both kinds of seeds are within us.

Syamasundara: Hm. Now so...

Prabhupada: And if you destroy this material seed then you will not grow again material body.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Prabhupada: That is: tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9]. By giving up this body no more material body because this material seed will be destroyed.

Karandhara: So there is no material way to do that?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hayagriva: So there is no material or scientific way to destroy that seed?

Prabhupada: That, that seed can be destroyed by Krsna. Therefore He says that; "You surrender unto Me and I give you protection from all reaction of sinful life." That means immediately destroyed, He can do that. Because He is the supreme, He can do that. Just like you are condemned to death but the king can excuse you. No other man can do this. No law can protect you. But if the king desires he can do it-protect you.

Karandhara: That is why all their attempts at atheistical ethics and advancement of humanitarianism, it always fails.

Prabhupada: Oh, it is useless. It is useless.

Syamasundara: So getting back to his, to his thesis, do you agree then...

Prabhupada: Only humanitarian work is to awaken his Krsna consciousness. This is the humanitarian.

Syamasundara: But do, do you agree with him so far he says that, that, "The evolution of our morality is within our own hands it isn't determined by selective nature." It isn't determined by our environments?

Prabhupada: No, it is in our own hands. We can make selection.

Karandhara: Free will.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Or free will we got too.

Syamasundara: So he says that, "That which is most morally worthy ought to survive."

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: He says, "That which ought to survive." Is what we should...

Prabhupada: You should have-most morally advanced is he who is Krsna conscious.

Syamasundara: So he is...

Prabhupada: He will survive.

Syamasundara: He ought to survive...

Prabhupada: Ought to no-he will.

Syamasundara: So he will survive.

Prabhupada: There is no question of ought. He will.

Atreya Rsi: What is his definition of morality?

Syamasundara: Ah.

Karandhara: Why should I ought to survive?

Syamasundara: That, that is flexible depending upon how we... Whatever we choose.

Atreya Rsi: Well but this civilisation that he is talking about is a material civilisation, isn't it? In other words the spectrum that he is talking about is limited to the, to the man's limited, his planning. [?]

Prabhupada: Right this is very intelligent question. Morality, now we say that cow killing-is immoral. And these karmis say that it is moral because by eating beef we develop our brain.

Karandhara: Yes, strong.

Prabhupada: Yes so we become strong. Now how this in-case which is morality? It is selected. There are so many dual things like this, one says this is moral, one says this is moral.

Karandhara: So we need a medium of measurement. A standard.

Syamasundara: Yeah. He says that it is practically by, by agreement, a unanimous agreement.

Prabhupada: That every man... The, the meat eaters will agree?

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Prabhupada: Cow killing is very nice...

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Karandhara: And one other...

Prabhupada: Is that cow killing morality?

Karandhara: Why not just train everyone to be, to be killers?

Syamasundara: Yeah. Now he is, he says that, that according to Darwin we would all be killers. The best one, the best killers. But we have evolved certain things which we [?]...

Prabhupada: Now we have left aside Darwin, now onto Huxley. Who will select morality? If you go by votes then the morality in one country is immorality in other country.

Syamasundara: Well he says that which is most worthy will survive. It is changing it is evolving that which is the most...

Prabhupada: Who will, who will decide this is worthy? If it depends on popular votes then who will decide this?

Karandhar: If we are taking a position of responsibility how will we work?

Syamasundara: That history, history will decide it. That, that, that we were bombing in history.

Prabhupada: That mean, he has no proposition which is morality.

Syamasundara: No, "Because it is always changing," he says.

Prabhupada: That, therefore...

Atreya Rsi: There are two things that he is missing Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: No, we don't agree in that. Morality cannot be changed.

Syamasundara: Hm. Hm.

Atreya Rsi: His value is based on maximisation of pleasure for the society.

Prabhupada: That's alright. That depends on different types of society.

Atreya Rsi: And because he doesn't see... I, as little as I know about him, he doesn't see the spectrum of spiritual life. With that...

Prabhupada: He has no idea of spiritual life. That is-I know.

Syamasundara: He is, he's not talking about specific moral standards. He is talking about the process.

Karandhara: But if he was.. How he decides?

Syamasundara: He says that, "Man's intelligence will decide to curb the egoistic instincts and act in a moral way", that's all.

Prabhupada: So man... That means...

Syamasundara: What is moral is a different thing...

Prabhupada: ..those persons who are accepting immoral things as moral-they are less intelligent.

Syamasundara: He says that, "The intelligence will, will decide."

Prabhupada: Well then if he accepts something immoral-as moral-then you are less intelligent.

Karandhara: So if he's...

Syamasundara: So that isn't intelligence if you have intelligence... Proper intelligence you'll find what is moral, is that acceptable?

Prabhupada: Yes, proper intelligence. Then...

Syamasundara: Proper intelligence.

Prabhupada: ..Ah, so the proper intelligence. How you can decide here is the proper intelligence?

Karandhara: So it is by his thesis, the message, he is concluding that nature has a direction.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Karandhara: If intelligence is ruling...

Syamasundara: It's calling...

Karandhara: ..then nature has a direction.

Syamasundara: Nature has a direction and morality has a direction...

Karandhara: So what makes a direction as unarbitrary? Where is the direction?

Syamasundara: He says that it is gradually... Just like Darwin saw things were going from simple to complex and therefore from inferior to superior. He also sees that morality is going from inferior to superior because in the ancient times they...

Prabhupada: That's...

Syamasundara: The caveman they...

Prabhupada: ..that's all right inferior to superior. My point is-who is to decide the real morality?

Syamasundara: He says, "Man."

Atreya Rsi: Nature, he says, "Nature."

Prabhupada: Man, man is ignoring [?] ...

Syamasundara: He says, "No, not nature." He says, "Man."

Prabhupada: As a man, man, he is rejecting Darwins.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: He is also man.

Syamasundara: No, he is rejecting Darwin's proposal that, "Nature forms morality," and he says that, "Man forms morality", chooses morality. Not nature.

Prabhupada: So the uneducated, then the man must be highly educated.

Syamasundara: That he doesn't discuss he only says that...

Prabhupada: That, that if you...

Syamasundara: ..that much.

Prabhupada: No, man. When man will select... that I have already put before you. That I say that I am a man and cow killing is immoral and other says this, "No, it is not immoral, it is moral." Then who will decide?

Syamasundara: Well that he doesn't get into, he only says that men will decide. Man will decide.

Prabhupada: Man cannot decide because doctors differ. That is the proverb, even highly educated doctors they differ in diagnosis.

Karandhara: Yes. But so many of the modern philosophers that that is their conclusion. That it is man's responsibility to mold this world and to make things advance. They come to that conclusion and they are very expert at criticising faults but they never offer any way to do it.

Prabhupada: Man cannot do it-that is our position. Man cannot.

Syamasundara: Man cannot do it. How then is it done?

Prabhupada: By God-Krsna.

Atreya Rsi: Syamasundara prabhu when you say man, does it that you mean mind and psychology of men originally...

Syamasundara: No I am strictly sticking to the philosophy...

Prabhupada: That is morality, just as Krsna says...

Syamasundara: I don't want to get into such...

Prabhupada: Sarva-dharman parityajya,mam ekam saranam [Bg 18.66]: you give up all this nonsense.

That man's description of morality, immorality these are all nonsense. Therefore He says, "Give up all this nonsense, just surrender unto Me." This is morality.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: This is morality. One who follows the, this morality he is perfectly moral.

Syamasundara: But can't a man not use his intelligence to, to improve his ethical goals, reject animal instincts, curb his ego and improve his motivations?

Prabhupada: No, because he is a fool. He may be, he may pose himself a philosopher just like Darwin posed himself as a philosopher and Huxley says, "No you are a fool." So somebody else will come he will say, "Huxley you are a fool." So these fools estimation will go on when the most intelligent Krsna will come then all the fools will learn.

Karandhara: But meanwhile the evolution is going exactly the opposite way they're thinking. People are not becoming more elevated...

Prabhupada: They are degrading.

Karandhara: They are more degraded.

Prabhupada: Degraded.

Syamasundara: Well we are still back in 1880.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: We are still back in 1880 when Huxley's writing all this. In that age of Queen Victoria everything seemed to be improving. She was introducing morality...

Prabhupada: They do not know what is improving.

Karandhara: They think that everything is improving now.

Prabhupada: They improve by plundering other countries. By colonising. Sending Lord Clive a great thief and great cheater. They were... They think that if we produce a cheater...

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: .. And thieves like Lord Clive that is improvement. That is there ignorance. Therefore they are suffering now. Now that Lord Clive is standing as a statue and the country cannot repair their house...

Syamasundara: Teardown.

Prabhupada: Which Lord Clive...

Syamasundara: 10 Downing Street.

Prabhupada: Yes. Lord Clive by plundering all other countries he built up some nice buildings. Now they cannot even repair.

Syamasundara: They were, they were preaching strict morality but they were acting in another way.

Prabhupada: They do not know what is morality.

Atreya Rsi: They do not know.

Prabhupada: That is our...

Karandhara: There is a hypocrisy of influence except someone who is God conscious.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: Whatever they say it is simply just for their own interests.

Syamasundara: Any man to a top. [?]

Prabhupada: They do not know. Man cannot know. Man is defective, he does not know anything. Abodha-jataḥ, sastra [SB 5.5.5] says abodha-jataḥ: all rascals. Abodha-jataḥ. Therefore he has to find out teacher.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Man is born fool, otherwise why you are sending your children to school? It is to be supposed that he is born fool.

Syamasundara: He says that, "Men achieve a better progress in a society than they do alone."

Prabhupada: Yes. Society if the society is good. A man can become good in our society, not in this ma... Mason's society. What is it?

Karandhara: Mason's.

Prabhupada: Mason's.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: If the society is good then by [why] Mason. That I was explaining.

[Clinking sound as something drops]

Syamasundara: And from that verse in Bhagavad-gita, "By the association..."

Prabhupada: Yes, sahgat sanjayate kamaḥ [Bg 2.62]. Sahgat sanjayate kamaḥ.

Syamasundara: He says that morality is, is based...

Prabhupada: Therefore the ideal... Morality and everything can be learned by the human society from ideal man-ideal society.

Syamasundara: Hm. Therefore...

Prabhupada: Now we have to find out who is the perfect ideal man, perfect ideal society. Then you [indistinct]. That is our proposal. Here is the perfect being-Krsna and here is the perfect society, Krsna consciousness society. You come here take education-here you become perfect.

Syamasundara: He says, "We have to find out that ideal which will make us most worthy to survive."

Prabhupada: Yes. That is, but how he will see? He will die himself, how he will see? He survive...

Syamasundara: Well, he bases on...

Atreya Rsi: He bases on life on this planet...

Syamasundara: He bases his morality on sympathy. He says that, "All men are born innate with innate sympathy for other people. So that this sympathy if it is developed properly that this will make him moral."

Prabhupada: But he, he is a still defective because he is sympathetic with man and not the animals.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Therefore he is defective.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Atreya Rsi: And also he is talking about survival on this planet and he doesn't seem to be...

Syamasundara: Well that's another thing.

Prabhupada: So his proposal is defective.

Syamasundara: He doesn't say that there is sympathy in the animals but I've seen...

Prabhupada: But you, you must have sympathy with the animals, you are man.

Syamasundara: But I mean in animals I've seen sympathy also, that I've seen dog's have sympathy for...

Prabhupada: Yes. Everything, everywhere there but because you are higher animal -so you must have sympathy with the lower animals. Why you are killing the lower animals? Where is your sympathy?

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: What kind of moralist you are? That is also bogus.

Syamasundara: What does that word mean; sympathy?

Prabhupada: Sympathy means, if by something I feel pain. So why should I induce you also to feel such pain? This is sympathy.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: If somebody pricks me I feel pain. Therefore I should not allow anyone to prick you also. This is sympathy.

Syamasundara: Golden rule...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ...Christian, Christianity...

Prabhupada: That I will ask, "Don't prick him," although I will not feel-but I know. I have got sympathy that you are like me-so you feel. So before your feeling-I ask him not to do this. This is sympathy.

Syamasundara: But it's not that we covered it up we don't...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: If it is developed properly then we will choose this-the proper morality.

Prabhupada: Yes. That development depends on education.

Syamasundara: Hah.

Prabhupada: Proper education. So without proper education; without proper association; there is no question of development and there is no question of sympathy. There is no question of morality.

Syamasundara: Hm. So education is the key.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now the question, what kind of education?

Syamasundara: Hm. But he says that, "Our education must come about not by imitating nature but by combating nature." He said that...

Prabhupada: You cannot combat, nature. That is impossible.

Syamasundara: He... This, this idea of combating nature began to grow at that time by men like Huxley. And now you see it...

Prabhupada: No that is not Huxley saying everyone is trying to, that is perpetual.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Everyone is trying to combat nature therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said:

You are trying to combat with the nature but it is impossible. It is impossible. Just like nature gives you death, you are trying to live that is combating.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: By nature's law you must die.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: And you are trying to live.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So that is combating.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So nobody has become successful.

Syamasundara: Right, that survival means to combat nature...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ..successfully.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: Combat.

Prabhupada: And nobody has become successful. Therefore nature is always strong.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: The combat is going on.

Syamasundara: He says that, "Nature is non-moral."

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: "Nature is non-moral."

Prabhupada: They are the most moral. He does not know what is nature.

Syamasundara: Nature is the most moral.

Prabhupada: The most moral.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Syamasundara: How is that?

Prabhupada: Because he is abiding by the order of Krsna.

Hayagriva: Those who do wrong get punished and those that do right get rewarded.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: How nature can be mistaken? In the Brahma-samhita it is said:

The Durga, the material nature is so powerful that you can create, you can maintain or you can annihilate, srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana. Such a powerful.

Syamasundara: He bases his morality on sympathy and he says, "Nature has no sympathy."

Prabhupada: Nature has all sympathy.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya. Actually today scientists have proved that, Prabhupada. That nature is very moral.

Prabhupada: Let them see, all sympathy. Because nature is working under the...just like police.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: The police apparently is most unsympathetic.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: But if it is ordered by superior official, "Take care of this man." Oh police will be great friend and protect him.

Syamasundara: Just like it would seem to, to somebody...

Prabhupada: Is it not?

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Oh, you have no danger police is always protecting you.

Syamasundara: It would seem to someone who was just seeing that if one man's house burned down...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ..and another man's house did not burn down there would be no sympathy involved. Arbitrary-chance.

Prabhupada: No arbitrary, no chance, that's it. It is plainly stated-yasya avyayaḥ:

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Just like my disciples if they are actually disciples then whatever order I give they will carry out. So nobody can expect something order which is immoral, from me.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Therefore their carrying off orders cannot be immortal.

Syamasundara: [Laughter] right.

Prabhupada: Cannot be immortal. Although instrumental but because they are carrying out higher authorities order, it cannot be immortal.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: The apparent punishment by nature is also sympathy. It's sympathy. Correcting. Just like nature is material nature mother Durga has got the trident in her hand always pushing. So the... That is also indirect moral, so that he become Krsna conscious. Giving him all kind of miserable condition pushing him to the conscious-that you surrender to Krsna you become free.

Syamasundara: Their, their idea is that if, if it is possible for a house to burn down we can create so many systems of fire alarms, fire brigades, fireproofing, fire extinguishers. So that nature will not be able to destroy us. We can prevent fires... Houses from burning down.

Prabhupada: No, even in spite of your so many arrangements. We... Nature if likes he can smash all these things.

Atreya Rsi: And an example for that is that for example in agriculture they found so many ways...

Syamasundara: Yeah. I was just going to talk about that...

Atreya Rsi: ..to stop, to stop pests control over animals. And in fact one example is in some farms near New York they found that they killed certain insect and because that certain insect was killed nature has stopped carrying seeds from one flower pollination of the pollinating the plants. And therefore all the vegetation everything is going to die.

Syamasundara: Just like we saw in Hawaii...

Atreya Rsi: Because their intelligence is imperfect...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: The highest intelligence is nature.

Prabhupada: Because by nature's order you cannot stop eating of the insect.

Atreya Rsi: Yes and they tried and they...

Prabhupada: Because they are also beings-sons of God. They must live also. It is spiritual communism. If some insects is eating grain, let them eat. Don't stop it.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: There will be enough production, let them eat. You eat and they eat.

Syamasundara: Just like...

Prabhupada: But if you think that I shall eat and they shall be killed then nature will stop production.

Syamasundara: There are so many examples of how man has failed to really combat natures successfullness.

Prabhupada: It is not possible.

Syamasundara: It has always backfired.

Prabhupada: It is not possible.

Karandhara: Every time someone dies...

Syamasundara: Every time. They introduced DDT a chemical to kill all the pests but now it is killing every... It is killing people too. It's in... it doesn't break down in nature, it is present everywhere DDT. It is poisoning everyone.

Atreya Rsi: A better example is that mechanically they are so advanced in the civilised nations but they have such high rate of people going crazy, committing suicide.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: The same [indistinct]

Prabhupada: More disease, disease has increased.

Atreya Rsi: Disease has increased.

Prabhupada: Proportion of disease has increased.

Syamasundara: They are always saying, "Oh but India so full of disease." But, just because you do not see them here, they are in the hospitals. There is more disease here than in India.

Atreya Rsi: And they are taking pills everyplace.

Prabhupada: There is more drugs of here.

Syamasundara: Yeah. There is more disease here. More epidemics here, by far.

Karandhara: Doctors in drug... Doctors in drugstores.

Prabhupada: More here.

Syamasundara: Oh by far in India you don't see very many diseases.

Karandhara: Say they go to the doctor every day.

Atreya Rsi: Yes.

Karandhara: Everything they have, they go to the doctor. To get some pills.

Atreya Rsi: And half a dozen pills they take every morning.

Syamasundara: Diseased people in India they go on the street and beg. So you think, "Oh, everyone is diseased." But here they are in hospitals you don't see them.

Prabhupada: Right... So you cannot conquer nature.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: That's not possible.

Syamasundara: So ah...

Prabhupada: You can conquer nature by devotional service to the Lord. When Krsna says, "Nature you don't bother him." That's all.

Karandhara: But that is their foolish call to arms. Conquer nature, gathered together mankind...

Syamasundara: Yeah. Science.

Karandhara: Consolidate our energy and conquer nature.

Atreya Rsi: Control nature-control.

Prabhupada: That is not possible.

Karandhara: They think that they have got some research now where they're researching with satellites and different kinds of chemicals where they will control the weather.

Syamasundara: They already in space.

Karandhara: When they control the weather they will be able to make it rain when they want it to rain. And sunshine when they want the sunshine.

Prabhupada: All crazy fellows.

Syamasundara: They are actually successful in it partially. I read it in...

Karandhara: It's only [?] a little phase, yeah.

Syamasundara: They can make it rain by, by spraying the atmosphere with a certain chemical...

Karandhara: Spraying the clouds...

Prabhupada: That a child can run on an engine, they have got childish engines.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: By winding it or giving some power the engine runs. But is that an any use? So what is the use of such rain?

Syamasundara: It will just rob rain from some other place.

Prabhupada: No not robbing rain. Suppose everyone, 1 mile before water. What is the benefit? He cannot; hundreds and thousands of miles immediately in a second. Hose, hose, over inundated.

Karandhara: But what they want to do they want to stop...

Prabhupada: Even there is no need of rain in the sea it is also inundated.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Karandhara: They also want to stop hurricanes and tornadoes. They, they are able to see in satellites now from way up above...

Prabhupada: Then, then on, on the whole their only disease is to imitate Krsna.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: Jaya.

Prabhupada: That is their disease. So imitation is never purpose.

Karandhara: Somebody else is already controlling the weather...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: Through the nature-Krsna but they want to take over the control.

Prabhupada: Krsna gives the prescription that you get rain in this way. Eh? What is that. Yajnad bhavati parjanyo, parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ [Bg 3.14].

Syamasundara: By performing sacrifice...

Prabhupada: Ah. That they will not do. They will spend for experiment millions of dollars...

Karandhara: Yes and once...

Prabhupada: And by performing yajna it can be done. No they will not do.

Syamasundara: They think, they see the Indian tribes, ancient tribes doing sacrifice and they think that that is barbarian.

Prabhupada: But the, they do not know what is sacrifice. Just, just when we made the fire sacrifice is that barbarian?

Syamasundara: To their idea...

Prabhupada: It is barbarian?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: They take it as primitive.

Syamasundara: They go to see the Navajo Indians in Arizona having their Raindance and they take many photos and they think it is very quaint. But...

Prabhupada: Well Raindance is... But this fire sacrifice-as we do...

Syamasundara: They have fire sacrifice and everything too. These Indians.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Karandhara: But the modern, the modern mind takes over the rituals and primitive, for less evolved intelligence perform some sacrifice. Rather than going out and taking things into their own hand.

Prabhupada: But you have not been successful. By taking in your hand.

Syamasundara: Well they will say, that the idea is that to eliminate all of the conditions that make us struggle for survival. If we can eliminate the struggle...

Prabhupada: Actually because we perform sahkirtana the Indian government won over Pakistan. Yes. The newspapermen came to me, "What, what is your direction of this war?" "You must fight-and surely you will gain." So actually it happened to this harinama-sahkirtana-yajna. But that Indira Gandhi was taking the credit.

Syamasundara: She's a demigod.

Prabhupada: She has become daina. Formally she was devil now she is daina.

Syamasundara: But they will say that we have eliminated the conditions that causes to have to struggle. Just like we have better fruits, nice vegetables, orchards.

Karandhara: They always, they point to their successes [indistinct]

Syamasundara: Plenty of food...

Karandhara: It's human successes.

Syamasundara: ..plenty of medicine, everything is there.

Prabhupada: And because you have plenty of food, plenty of medicine therefore you have plenty of rogues also.

Syamasundara: [Laughter]

Prabhupada: That is also another...

Syamasundara: Yeah. That's a fact.

Prabhupada: ..by-product, plenty of rogues.

Syamasundara: Drug addicts, criminals, prostitutes...

Atreya Rsi: The problem with the scientists is they do not understand the needs, the hierarchy of the needs. They understand a little bit-the need. They think man needs food, man needs shelter a man needs a little friendship, affection. But they do not go beyond that. They provide him all that and the man is more and more miserable.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because that is our formula, ahara, nidra, bhaya, maithuna. Give him eating, give him facility for sleeping, give him facility for sex life...

Karandhara: Decorum.

Prabhupada: ..and give him assurance from danger. So these are primary necessities. So the animal can be satisfied with these primary necessities. A man cannot be. Because he has developed consciousness, so he wants something more.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Therefore in the human society there is art, music, philosophy so many things. Religion. These things are there.

Karandhara: More ways to eat and sleep.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: More ways to eat and sleep.

Prabhupada: But if these developed consciousness is again, I mean to say; rewarded for the matter of eating, sleeping. Then he will never be satisfied. These things, these higher consciousness should be utilized for developing Krsna consciousness, then he will be happy.

Karandhara: That's how they are spending all there energy, just like instead of being satisfied with a little simple food. They have to have 100 restaurants to go to. Different restaurant every day, on every street different restaurant. They think that will increase their pleasure of eating every night to eat at a different restaurant. Or sleep in a different hotel.

Prabhupada: And next go to doctor. For some pills-digestive pills or eat some liquor, then forget, advertisement [indistinct]? Or something like that.

Syamasundara: Drown it all out. All the suffering. I think we discussed once before that even if you eliminate the conditions of struggle the men will create more because they like to struggle.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: They'll... It is very easy in their job, let's say. But on the weekend when they are supposed to relax, leisure time. They will go to the mountains and hike real hard and camp and cook.

Prabhupada: And next in the morning, they'll shave, they'll play the tennis, golf...

Syamasundara: Tennis.

Prabhupada: ...golf.

Syamasundara: You can't eliminate struggle it, it is part of our nature.

Prabhupada: You give him rest, he will not rest, he will go.

Syamasundara: Isn't this struggle part of the nature of the living entity?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: Isn't this struggle...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Part of our nature?

Karandhara: To be active.

Prabhupada: No, to work-hard work is the pleasure of the materialistic man.

Karandhara: Modes of passion.

Syamasundara: But even, but even Krsna...

Prabhupada: Yes. Due to passion, yes.

Syamasundara: But even Krsna although He had no reason to, He liked to fight sometimes or this or that. He like to have activities.

Prabhupada: Krsna, whatever Krsna does-it is for pleasure.

Syamasundara: Ah.

Prabhupada: But you cannot do for his pleasure, for your pleasure. You create another displeasure.

Syamasundara: In the U.S in the material world. But is there a spiritual counterpart of this desire for struggle, for...

Prabhupada: There is no struggle, Krsna's not struggling. When He is dancing with the gopis, He is not struggling, He is enjoying.

Syamasundara: Oh, I see.

Atreya Rsi: Prabhupada is it, is it all our desires and struggles. The social bowel [?] of our desires and struggles, of every living entity...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: ...is basically to find Krsna?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Atreya Rsi: Then that's the natural; and every other struggle and desire is the practical...

Prabhupada: No, that is not natural that is unnatural.

Syamasundara: No, no but what Prabhupada was saying is that in, in activity in the material world is struggle. But activity in the spiritual world is enjoyment.

Prabhupada: Enjoyment.

Atreya Rsi: Is this is a perversion...

Prabhupada: Just like... For a diseased man to get up from the bed is a great painful affair. But for a healthy man, he jumps over the bed and begins to work. And a diseased man will see and say, "Oh how he is suffering so much. He jumps I cannot get up."

Karandhara: Just like some devotee's, some devotee's before they came to Krsna conscious. They weren't doing anything, they stopped doing anything. They had given up even a purpose for living but when they come to Krsna consciousness then they begin to work and now they are working harder than ever.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Just like...

Prabhupada: They don't feel any displeasure.

Karandhara: Yes.

Syamasundara: Just like when you were always travelling around the world. Sometimes if someone saw, they'd say, "Why are you struggling so hard, why?" But for us it wasn't struggle, it was enjoyment.

Prabhupada: No, it is pleasure.

Syamasundara: So anyway the essence of his philosophy, the purport is that, "Man can make his own world."

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: Man can make his own world.

Prabhupada: Yes that we also say. But if you, that is Gita says:

If you want to go to, go to the planets of the demigods, you can go. You can if you want to go to the planets, easy journey other planets. And if you want to go to back to home back to, you can go. Now it up in your selection. What you want. If you want to remain here you can remain here. So you have got your intelligence, Krsna has given you all facilities. Now you make your choice. For then you are going to hell or heaven or Krsna. That is your choice.

Syamasundara: According to this Huxley about Krsna or God. He said that we must remain what he calls, "Agnostic." He, he coined this term from the Greek derivative from the Sanskrit jnana. Jnana means in Greek-gnosis, gnosis. So opposite of gnosis is agnosis or agnostic. That means...

Prabhupada: Ajnana.

Syamasundara: We can't know God.

Prabhupada: Ajnana.

Syamasundara: Ajnana. We cannot know God even though He may exist we cannot know Him. This is...

Prabhupada: Why, why he cannot know Him?

Syamasundara: Because He doesn't appear in phenomenal...

Prabhupada: And if He appears? If He appears.

Karandhara: Or He can't appear.

Prabhupada: No, ahm you, you say you cannot see him in the kilometre.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: But God He can appear and teach you. Then you can know. So our process is that, we don't try to get knowledge of God by speculation or we try to get knowledge of God from a rascal or fool. Philosopher. We take direct when God appears and leaves the instruction Bhagavad-gita, we take first.

Karandhara: Well he had a little bit of intelligent perspective because at least he realized that by empiric method they never realized God.

Prabhupada: That, that is nice.

Syamasundara: He is the one who introduced this term and this concept agnosticism. At least he doesn't deny God, like the atheist.

Prabhupada: That Marxism man said he agrees that God cannot be known by our present senses.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That we also say. But it is not that God cannot be known, present senses can be purified. Krsna consciousness movement means purifying the senses and purified senses, you can't go wrong.

Syamasundara: He introduced another concept which has become the byword of all our modern thought called, "Epic Phenomenalism." Which means that the consciousness and mental phenomenon are produced by physical processes. Consciousness, the mind, these are physical things.

Karandhara: Just like we have...

Prabhupada: That mind is physical we accept this.

Karandhara: What about consciousness?

Prabhupada: Consciousness is also physical.

Syamasundara: Physical. These are products of matter combination of ingredients create consciousness.

Prabhupada: Yes subtle physical, subtle physical.

Karandhara: But their extension of that is... [End]