Descartes, Rene

Descartes, Rene (Syamasundara)

Syamasundara: Descartes first proposition, "that all truths can be derived from reason, that reason is superior to and independent of sense experience, that knowledge is deducible from self-evident concepts or necessary ideas." In other words he departs from those who believe that the only truth can be derived from sense experience. He says, "through pure thought, pure reason one derives necessary ideas."

Prabhupada: That's nice. Just like we can not understand God by sense experience but a still we can understand by reason that there is God.

Syamasundara: Hah.

Prabhupada: The reason is that we find, just like I have got my father, my father has got father, his father has got father, you go on, there must be a Supreme Father. So God is called Supreme Father, so by reason we can understand there must be one Supreme Father. Similarly God is creator, we can understand very easily that everything we see there is a creator. Why not this big cosmic manifestation has a creator? This is reason-but the rascals will say that creation is made, there was a chunk and it became burst, there was stars and then there were the planets. How is that? Where is the chunk that it burst automatically? There must be some dynamite, there must be some worker on the dynamite, to set on fire the dynamite, then we see that a hill or a chunk is immediately broken.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: But this theory, how they can understand by reason, the creation, the theory of creation? This is reasonable, that as we see that everything is created by somebody therefore the universe, this cosmic manifestation, it may be very big thing but there is big brain also. But this is reason. How they deny the existence of God? Just like God is said to be creator, the Supreme Father. So from this argument I have got my father, my father has got... Similarly we can go to the Supreme Father. Similarly God is the creator, that we have to…, we can understand, that everything has got a creator so why not this universe a creator? This is reason.

Syamasundara: Descartes method was to search out first of all within himself a basis for truth and that basis he found out to be self-consciousness, first of all I exist, then God exists.

Prabhupada: Yes. That I said, I exist, my father exists, my grandfather exists, his grandfather exists therefore God exists.

Syamasundara: So he says that this idea that I exist is innate.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: That all truth is innate.

Prabhupada: That is, in Sanskrit it is called ahahkara, ahahkara, I…, "I am", this is ahahkara. So ahahkara at the present moment, I exist but my conception of existence is wrong. I am thinking I exist-my body, but body does not exist. He does not understand how I exist. Then by reason and by understanding when he comes, "So what is that I exist? I?" Then he is spirit soul, he is not this body. That is reason. I exist…, I exist, I existed, I was existing when I was a child, I was existing when I was a boy, I was existing when I was a young man and I am old man, I am existing, therefore even after this body I will exist.

Syamasundara: Ha.

Prabhupada: As I surpass so many bodies still I existed so therefore my reasoning that I shall exist even this body is destroyed. And that is confirmed in the most authoritative book, Bhagavad-gita [2.20]: na hanyate hanyamane sarire. "Spirit soul does not annihilate even after the annihilation of this body." So that is my experience.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: And that is confirmed in the sastra and by reason this is concluded, that soul is immortal, that's a fact.

Syamasundara: He says that, "the only truth, the only criterion for truth is that it must be self-evident", just like there is certain intuitive knowledge that I exist.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: It must be like that, innate knowledge, self-evident.

Prabhupada: This is innate knowledge…

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: I exist now, I existed in the past, why shall I not exist in the future? This is knowledge. If it is a fact I existed in the past and I am existing till now, why not? And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says that, "You, Me and all these kings and soldiers who are assembled, it is not that they did not exist in the past and it is not that they will not exist in the future." This is confirmed by Krsna and by reason also says like that, that I existed in my childhood body, that body is no longer existing but I am existing. I existed in my youthhood body, that body is gone. You can not say that this body and that young body is the same. I feel so many inconveniences because my body is different. But when I was a child I could jump like a monkey.

Devotees: [gasp] [chuckle]

Prabhupada: That was my habit, every child jumps like that because he has got a fit body, he jumps like that but I do not do that, therefore that body is different from this body. So I existed in a different body, so I am existing in a different body, so I will exist in a different body, this is reason.

Syamasundara: Hm. He says, "whatever is clear and distinct such as the mind's consciousness of itself must be true."

Prabhupada: Yes this is truth because I am thinking like that it is stated in authoritative books and it is confirmed by acaryas, this is truth. Not that I am whimsically, I am thinking like that and Krsna says, Lord Caitanya says, all the acaryas says, then where is the doubt?

Syamasundara: He says that, "the elementary truths of consciousness are innate in man's personality and they provide him with immediate and rational proof."

Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact, because my position as soul, I am minute perfect because I am part and parcel of the Supreme Perfect therefore although my existence, my identification, is very, very minute but perfect. Just like gold, big gold, or a particle of gold, it is perfectly gold. It maybe minute but it is perfectly gold. Nobody can say, "it is not gold". Similarly because I am part and parcel of the Supreme Perfect so in my minute quantity I am perfect. But my imperfectness is only that I am minute and He is great. I can not become that great, that is my imperfection, but in minute quantity if I remain-I am perfect. That the small drops of ocean water, the chemical composition is perfectly the same as the chemical composition of the sea. My imperfectness is that I am a small drop, I can not become as big as the sea. That is my difference otherwise qualitatively I am one with God there are all good qualities, God has all... God is all-good similarly minutely I am also good. I am becoming bad through the association of maya. Just like a man in normal condition is a gentleman, as soon as he becomes mad he is different, he talks nonsense-the same gentleman. Similarly minutely I am perfect but in contact with matter I have become imperfect. So the whole process is to go back to the perfectional point by Krsna consciousness, that is called mukti: sva-rūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6], to be situated in his own original form. That is perfection-mukti.

Syamasundara: He says that, "these alleged truths which appear to come to our senses from outside are unreliable, that only innate ideas are clear and unmuddled by the senses because they are derived from our own nature."

Prabhupada: That means his idea is that truth has to be established by oneself.

Syamasundara: Yes, inside.

Prabhupada: Not by others?

Syamasundara: Well at his time there was no authority, no one else who he could rely on, so he first of all searched inside himself to find some innate basis for truth.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: First of all he discovered that, "I am", then because I am...

Prabhupada: Long, long ago…

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: …there was many who could understand, "I am".

Syamasundara: Hah.

Prabhupada: If he was fool for the first time he could understand but not that there were no other learned men who could understand. This is called atmavan manyate jagat, "A fool thinks all other's fools."

Syamasundara: [laughs]

Prabhupada: Atmavan manyate jagat. Just like a deaf man, he talks very slowly and silently because he hears very silently, not loud voice. He thinks that this much is sufficient. You have experienced it?

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: A deaf man talks very softly because he thinks this much sound is sufficient. Because he can not hear anything loudly.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: So atmavan manyate jagat, "Everyone thinks all others like himself." If he is a fool he things other's fools. Or if he is a false learned he thinks all others are learned like that. So it is not that he was the first man to realize the identification of self, "I am." It is long existing. At least Krsna says: aham; aham evasam evagre [SB. 2.9.33]. "I existed in the beginning and when everything will be finished I shall continue to exist." So this is Krsna's saying about the creation, we can say also in that way, that I existed before this body was created and I shall continue to exist when the body is annihilated but my business is this little body and Krsna's business is the whole universe, that is the difference. So this consciousness of "I" is there in God, it is in me, and where is the new thing?

Syamasundara: But at his time the only authorities he could draw on were those in the Western tradition, he had, they had no translations in Sanskrit, from Sanskrit.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore he was in fools paradise, that's all.

Syamasundara: [laughter] So at least he was intelligent enough to not rely upon any of others but to clear-up... He wanted to search out the innate intuition of clear distinct ideas...

Prabhupada: It is said in Sanskrit that erahḍo'pi drumayate [Hitopadesa] Erahḍo plant, [is] very small, so where there is no big tree, the erahḍo tree, "See so I am the biggest."

Devotees: [laughter]

Prabhupada: Erahḍo'pi drumayate ...

Syamasundara: He had a methodology called the Cartesian Method which was in four parts, the first part is: "never accept anything as true which is not known clearly and distinctly to be true."

Prabhupada: That is good of course, don't accept anything blindly but this reasoning power also proportionally. Just like a higher mathematician, he will make a solution of a problem in two or three lines and one who is not in higher mathematics, oh he will not reason [?]. So he may not understand for his life but that does not mean the higher mathematician, he has calculated in three lines, that is untruth. So this is not a reason, it is relative. If he can not understand what is God therefore, "There is no God." What is this nonsense? Hm? You have no such intelligence to understand so you have to go the intelligent.

Syamasundara: Hm. His basis for truth was that it must be as clear and distinct as a mathematical proof.

Prabhupada: Provided one is mathematician.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: If he is a ploughman then what he can understand about mathematics?

Syamasundara: Well according to Descartes it was up to those who could understand about mathematics.

Prabhupada: That means there are…, not all mathematicians.

Syamasundara: No. But for them...

Prabhupada: Therefore the higher truth is not to be understood by everyone.

Syamasundara: Yes. But for them to chalk out the truth and pass it on to those…

Prabhupada: Therefore you have to accept truth from authorities.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Not that you have to check it, you may not understand. Therefore we take it Vedas, the truth: sruti-pramana. As soon as there is evidence in the Vedas we accept. We may understand or not understand, the same example.

Syamasundara: His second part, the second part of his method was to divide up the complex into simpler and simpler parts in order to satisfactory arrive at a solution for each part.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Syamasundara: And then the whole will be proved. Just like in mathematics a complex equation is divided up into smaller simpler parts and each part is proven first before the whole is proven. The third part to his method was that...

Prabhupada: But one must be expert in analyzing. Suppose if I give you a machine, typewriter, and you go on opening it, opening it, there are so many parts, then you forget how to adjust.

Syamasundara: [laughter]

Prabhupada: Unless you are expert, opening…, opening is easier.

Devotees: [laughter]

Prabhupada: [laughs] But adjusting is very difficult.

Syamasundara: Devananda Maha… [laughs].

Prabhupada: Ha. Yes. Devananda Maharaja, [chuckles] huh, any machine put to him he will open and then he will spoil it. Go to the mechanic, pay three hundred rupees.

Syamasundara: [laughs] So then his third part was to arrange the ideas from the simplest to the increasingly complex in that way have a schematic arrangement of things.

Prabhupada: He says therefore our philosophy is for spiritual understanding, first of all you understand yourself, that you are spirit soul, that is our process. Just like in the same thing, that in my babyhood body I was there and childhood body I was there, boyhood body I was there and youthhood body I was there, and still I am there. I can remember my childhood body, how big I was, how I was playing, how I was jumping. So I can not do those things now but I am still existing. So I can conclude that I am existing inspite of change of bodies, so I will exist after this body is changed. But one thing, that is also to be studied that I am standing on this thing as master of my body.

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: Similarly, with this big body, the universal body, there must be another soul, that is Supersoul-or God. As my body is existing on account of my presence similarly this huge gigantic virata body is existing on account of another big soul. I am small soul for maintaining this small body, I am conscious of all changes, if not fully I know on the average. Similarly this cosmic manifestation is a huge body, there must be a soul. Without soul, called Supersoul. How this big gigantic body is existing fresh? As I am existing, my body is fresh similarly these trees, planets and everything looks very fresh always, so there must be a big soul. What is the difficulty of understanding?

The Supersoul and it is confirmed in the Vedas: anḍantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. Anḍantara-stha, anḍa means this brahmanḍa, "Within that I am there. And I am within the smallest [What is called?] atom also." That is God's all-pervasiveness. God's parts and parcels I am, I am in this body, similarly God's minute parts and parcels within the atoms and God's…, Himself or by His plenary expansion, He is within this universe. What is the difficulty to understand? And if we named the different manifestation of God: Maha-Visnu, Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu, Ksirodakasayi Visnu.

[aside: Come in.]

So what is the difficulty to understand? In a big lamp there is big power, electricity, in a small lamp there is small power of electricity, but electricity is the same. The Mayavadi's take, Mayavadi philosophers takes only this part, therefore everything is the same. They don't take into account the varieties. Similarly God is all-pervasive but varieties. I am also part and parcel of God, Garbhodakasayi is also part and parcel of God, Ksirodakasayi is also part and parcel of God, everyone, but varieties part and parcel. Garbhodakasayi Visnu part and parcel of Krsna, He can create this gigantic universe. I am a small particle, I can create this body or another body.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: What is the difficulty to understand?

Syamasundara: So the self creates the body?

Prabhupada: Yes. You are creating body. Why your body is different from me? You desired a body like this, I desired a body like this or I created by my work a body like this, you have created a body like this, a dog has created his body according to his desires, a tiger has created his body. So the soul is the same therefore: panḍitaḥ sama-darsinaḥ [Bg. 5.18], "Those who are learned, he does not see the external varieties, he sees the soul within." The soul, by his different desires and activities, they are in different bodies therefore we see 8,400,000 species of bodies and Krsna says, "All of them are My sons." Aham bija-pradaḥ pita [Bg. 14.4], "I am the seed-giving father." The father does not create these bodies. Just like father creates son, that's alright, but the son creates his own situation. Some is very rich, some is very poor, some is a scientist or philosopher or a rascal number one. So this is going on. But when he is born, father did not say that you become a rascal or you become a scientist or you become this or you become that. It is by his energy, therefore we see varieties. The father sees, "They are all my sons."

Syamasundara: The forth part of the Cartesian Method says that one should take into account the most detailed facts and make sure nothing is omitted.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is…, that is not science, that is knowledge. Just like we are taking in details, "What is the difference between the Supreme Lord and myself?" This is detail, that I can create a small body like…, He can create a gigantic body. I can not create a gigantic body. This is analysis, real detail.

Syamasundara: And any small thing that we see we are able to place it in the scheme of Krsna's creation.

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says: aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. "I am the origin of all-prabhavaḥ, which has taken place." Bijo 'ham sarva-bhūtanam [Bg. 7.10]. Sarva-bhūt means, "all living entities," I am the bija, I am the seed. The seed is the soul, spiritual spark. So all the spiritual sparks are Krsna's expansions. Therefore Krsna is the bija, He's the seed of everything.

Syamasundara: Hm, Descartes suggested some rules for conduct which everyone should follow. He says, number one, "Obey the laws and customs of the nation, your religious faith and your family tradition and avoid extremes of behavior."

Prabhupada: Well, that is good proposal, I'll admit. [chuckles] That is nice, actually this family tradition is respected in Vedic civilization. Just like Arjuna argued that, "If I kill them the family tradition will be lost." Is it not? That means he gives respect to the family tradition but Krsna said that this is material, it has no spiritual value so therefore he chastised him that, "You are simply situated on the material platform therefore: asocyan anvasocas tvam [Bg 2.11]. "You are lamenting on things which no learned man laments." So these are proposition for ordinary man, it is not for highly elevated spiritually advanced men.

Syamasundara: Yes. So these are practical rules of every day conduct.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's it.

Syamasundara: And the second one was, "Stand by the convictions you have formed and be resolute in the course of action you have chosen."

Prabhupada: Ah. That means you are a dog's obstinacy, what you understood, you are not going to change. That is called dog's obstinacy. Yes.

Syamasundara: Yeah. Ha.

Prabhupada: You have to... Of course if your conclusion is final, it is, if it is truth, then such kind of obstinacy is nice but if you have not reached the final goal or the Absolute Truth, this is impediment for making advance.

Syamasundara: Yes. Right.

Prabhupada: That can not be applied generally. In the neophyte stage one must be flexible. Yes. But in advanced stage, when he is actually in truth, that is nice.

Syamasundara: Determination.

Prabhupada: Determination also it's a fact, you can not change it. Just like we have understood Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nobody can change us, that's good. But there are other religious systems, just like in Christian system they say that, "Only Jesus Christ can help you to go back to God." That was meant for them to whom Lord Jesus Christ instructed because Jesus Christ saw that, "If they go out of my clutches they will be spoiled."

Syamasundara: Hm.

Prabhupada: They are so third-class, that…, or, I mean to say lower-grade people that they must stick to that. Otherwise there is no question of progress. So this is was good but they could not understand anything. So just like..., Lord Buddha, he also said that, "I have nothing to do with the Vedas." But that does not mean Vedas authorities becomes diminished.

[End]