Conversation on Bhagavad-gītā 4.13 – August 5, 1974, Vṛndāvana
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740805BG.VRN
Conversation on Bhagavad-gita 4.13
- August 5, 1974, Vrndavana 740805BG-VRNDAVAN [42:45 Minutes]
A dog is never happy without a master
चतौव्र<<्य| मयअ स*í& गौ<<अक्मरिव>अगxअ" )
तस्य क्तअर्र्मैप मअ& इव्ट्य्क्तअर्र्मव्ययम( )) १३ )) Pusta-krsna: ...translation...
[break] ...Bhagavad-gita... [break]
Dayananda: ...Prabhupada...
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Dayananda: What is that... [break]
Prabhupada: ...where is, I don't exactly... We have heard from authorities. There is no question of inquiring. What is the... Even if you don't quote, you can assert firmly that everyone is a sūdra. How? Now, guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ [Bg 4.13]. Bhagavad-gita says this classification is made, guna-karma. So what is the karma at the present moment? They're seeking service. The so-called education means seeking service, master. Paricaryatmakam karma sūdra-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44]. This is sastra. Anyone who is attached to give service to others or, without giving service to others, he cannot live, that is he's sūdra. He has no independent existence. Just like I was showing, the dog. Unemployed. Lean and thin and... Because he has no master. The same dog, when he has got a master, he'll be stout and strong, and he'll, as soon as you..., "Owf! Owf! Bow! [laughter] I have got my master." So this is sūdra. Sūdra is compared with the dog. A dog is never happy without a master. Then it is a street dog. That is the difference between household dog and a street dog. So in this age, practically you see, unless there is employment, he's a street dog. That is the proof that everyone is a sūdra. That is the proof.
Brahmananda: Brahmana is not to accept any employment.
Prabhupada: No. He'll die of starvation, he'll not accept any employment. That is brahmana. Ksatriya also that, and vaisya also. Only sūdra. A vaisya will find out some business. He'll find out some business. So there is a practical story. One Mr. Nandi, long, long ago, in the Calcutta, he went to some friend, that "If you can give me a little capital, I can start some business." So he said, "You are vaisya? Mercantile?" "Yes." "Oh, you are asking money from me? Money's on the street. You can find out." So he said, "I don't find." "You don't find? What is that?" "That, that is a dead mouse." "That is your capital." Just see.
So in those days, plague in Calcutta, plague was going on. So Municipal declaration was any dead mouse brought to the Municipal office, he'll be paid two annas. So he took that dead body of the mouse and took to the Municipal office; he was paid two annas. So he purchased some rotten betel nuts with two annas, and washed it and sold it at four annas or five annas. In this way, again, again, again, that man became so rich man. One of their family member was our Godbrother. Nandi family. That Nandi family still, they have got four hundred, five hundred men to eat daily. A big, aristocratic family. And their family's regulation is as soon as one son or daughter is born, five thousand rupees deposited in the bank, and at the time of his marriage, that five thousand rupees with interest, he can take it. Otherwise there is no more share in the capital. And everyone who lives in the family, he gets eating and shelter. This is their... But the original, I mean to say, establisher of this family, Nandi, he started his business with a red..., a dead rat, or mouse.
That is actually fact, actually fact, that if one wants to live independently... In Calcutta I have seen, even poor class vaisyas, and in the morning they'll take some dal, bag of dal, and go door to door. Ḍal is required everywhere. So in morning he makes dal business, and in evening he takes one canister of kerosene oil. So in the evening everyone will require. Still you'll find in India, they... Nobody was seeking for employment. A little, whatever he has got, selling some ground nuts or that peanuts. Something he's doing. After all, Krsna is giving maintenance to everyone. It is a mistake to think that "This man is giving me maintenance." No. Sastra says, eko yo bahūnam vidadhati kaman [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13]. It is confidence in Krsna, that "Krsna has given me life, Krsna has sent me here. So He'll give me my maintenance. So according to my capacity, let me do something, and through that source, Krsna's maintenance will come." Just like we are maintaining so many people in the Krsna consciousness movement. So what business we are doing? But we are confident that Krsna will send us our maintenance. That confidence required. A sūdra means he becomes disturbed. He becomes disturbed: "Oh, I have no employment. How shall I eat? Where shall I go? Where shall I live?" He has no faith in Krsna. The brahmana has got full faith, the ksatriya has got little less faith, the vaisya, little less faith, and the sūdra has no faith. This is the difference.
So your question was that how we can know a sūdra. That because everyone is now faithless, and everyone is seeking after employment. Therefore-we may discuss in so many ways-because people have become sūdra, therefore the capitalists are exploiting them. If everyone denies to be..., serve, then these so-called industries will fail. Immediately. That is Gandhi's proposal. "Non-cooperate with the British government, and it will wind up." And actually so happened. Because people are now sūdras, they depend for their bread to others, the others exploit them: "Come here. You work and I shall give you bread." They do not believe anymore, "O God, give us our daily bread." They think that "This our master give us daily bread." That is sūdra. Sūdra means one who is dependent on others. Paricaryatmakam karyam sūdra-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44].
This is the description, definition of sūdra. And vaisya: krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam. The vaisya is doing the krsi, agriculture. Why he should depend on...? Take some land from the government. You produce your food. Where is the difficulty? Keep some cows; you get milk. Vaisya-karma svabhava... Go-raksya. If you have got excess, then make trade. Why you should depend on others?
But they do not know. They want that "I shall go at ten o'clock in the office, and I shall do nothing. Simply I shall take the pen and make like this and take my salary." That's all. Cheating. This is going on. Therefore the whole system is polluted. Nobody's doing his duty. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma... [Bg 4.13].
According to one's quality, one must work. But nobody wants to work. So therefore they are sūdras. They are working, but at the care of somebody else, not independently. Now the school, college, the teacher is also depending on salary. So they are sūdras. So what teaching they will give? Teaching is the business of the brahmana. No salary. Formerly, all the brahmanas, they used to have that... It is called tola, catuspathi. Catuspathi [A school where up to the four Vedas are taught]. Brahmana, he'll sit down anywhere and invite that "If you like, you can come and take some teachings from me."
Brahmananda: Caitanya Mahaprabhu did that.
Prabhupada: Yes. So still in villages you'll find the brahmana is sitting somewhere, and the small children are coming, and they're bringing some presentation. Somebody's bringing rice, somebody... And brahmana was satisfied, satisfied: "Whatever Krsna sends, that's all right." This is brahminical qualification. He doesn't want more. There was a brahmana teacher in Krishnanagara. So the zamindar of Krsna..., Raja-krsna-candra, he went that "Brahmana, what can I help you?" "No, I don't want your help." "No, you are... Your house is not very good, and your..." "No, I am quite satisfied." "How you are pulling on?" "No, I have got my student. They bring some rice. And here is a tamarind tree. My wife collects some leaves, boils it, and that becomes nice soup. And these boys bring some rice. I am quite satisfied."
[break] "...as your production is there, give me twenty-five percent. I'll give you protection." That is ksatriya business. Brahmana's business: teaching. And vaisya: till the field, agriculture, get your food. Now, where is dependence? Only a sūdra, he cannot take up all these things. "Give me some service, sir. Give me some service." In the modern education, they... The more and more industries increasing, there sūdras are being trained up, technology. Technology means he must get some service; otherwise, useless. Simple life, teaching, brahmana; and ksatriya, give protection; and vaisya, till the ground. This is... Where is the question of scarcity? The scarcity is that nobody's doing his real duty. Guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ [Bg 4.13].
And people are exploiting. There is competition, dissatisfaction, fight. So many things, sinful activities. The whole society is polluted. Actually, the whole human society is now conducted by the sūdras. But sūdras cannot run on government. That is not possible. Because that sūdra, your Nixon is a sūdra, he is exalted post, therefore everything is not in order.
Brahmananda: Ksatriyas should run the government?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Brahmananda: And the brahmanas should give advice.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Vedic system. The brahmanas would never take part in administration. They would give advice according to sastra.
Svarūpa Damodara: I have a comment on that research.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Svarūpa Damodara: You said that research is all right, but there has to be a standard.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Svarūpa Damodara: There has to be a standard.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarūpa Damodara: It has to be standardized.
Prabhupada: Yes. Research.
Svarūpa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is the business of the research scholar, how to make it standardized. Everything is standardized. Just like you have found the molecules, protons, and... They are working in a standardized way. They are not working whimsically there. There is standard process.
Svarūpa Damodara: And what is that standard? What is that standard of research?
Prabhupada: The standard is already there. Is not that?
Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, but...
Prabhupada: Standard is already there. Krsna has already made the standard. Our intelligence is to know how the standard has come.
Svarūpa Damodara: So we say that brahma-jijnasa is a standard. Is that, is that...? Is that okay?
Prabhupada: Brahma-jijnasa means... Anything you take, it is working in a standard way. Just like the sun is rising. So the brahma-jijnasa means how the sun is rising exactly in time. Who has made this rule? And in astronomy there is very fine calculation, one ten-thousandth part of a minute, or something like that? I have heard from you scientists. They, they make calculation of the movement of the sun like that. In astrology also, the moment is calculated like that. If the exact moment is there, by mathematical calculation, he can give you the exact history of your whole life. This is standard, all standard. Niyamitaḥ. Yasyajnaya bhramati kala-cakraḥ. There is, Brahma-samhita says:
yac-caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam
raja samasta-sura-mūrtir asesa-tejaḥ yasyajnaya bhramati sambhrta-kala-cakro govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs 5.52] How exactly the sun and the moon and the planet, they are rotating? How? Yasyajnaya. By whose order? That Govinda, adi-purusa, "I offer my respectful..." Everywhere you'll find the research.
Svarūpa Damodara: So then the difference between the transcendentalists and the scientists is that they do not know the standard of research.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we say they are fools. Why do we say mūḍhaḥ? Because they do not know. And our business is easy. We take Vedic version, Krsna's version, Brahma's version, Vyasadeva's version, and accept. That's all. Which one is easiest? Our business is very simple. You ask your father... A child asks his father, "Father, what is this?" The father says, "This is microphone, my dear child." And he will, "Mother, this is microphone." So when he says this "Mother, this is microphone," is he correct or not?
Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, he is.
Prabhupada: He's correct. He may be child, but because he has accepted the words of his father, the statement is correct. So our process is that. Take the version of the authority, Krsna, and you repeat it-your version is perfect. This is our policy. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, "You rascal scholar, philosopher, scientist, don't manufacture anything. Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. That's all. You become master." Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128].
You become master. You can teach others, a spiritual master. That's all. And if, whatever little success I have got-only for this reason. I have never said anything which is not spoken by Krsna. I never said, "In my opinion." I never said. You are so many students. I never said that to you. What is my opinion? One should know, "What is the value of my opinion? I am imperfect being." This is called trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna . If one thinks, "Oh, I am big scholar. I am this. I am that," you are rascal. You have to simply carry the message of Krsna. But for your understanding you can make research work.
Svarūpa Damodara: That is the secret.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the secret.
yasya deve para bhaktir
yatha deve tatha gurau tasyaite kathita hy arthaḥ prakasante mahatmanaḥ [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23] If one has got unflinching faith in Krsna and His representative, guru, then all the knowledge will be revealed to him automatically. Just like yourself. You are a big scientist. You have talked with me, you have studied with me, or you have examined me in so many ways. And I have also spoken whatever I had knowledge. Unless you are convinced, how you can say that "You are my spiritual master"? So what is the secret? I am not a scientist. I am not M.A., C.A. How do you agree to accept me as spiritual master? Because I stick to this principle, Krsna and guru, that's all. This is the secret of guru.
So today is Baladeva-avirbhava. Baladeva, in the strength. Nayam atma bala-hinena labhyaḥ. You cannot understand, realize yourself, without the help of Baladeva. Therefore in the Vedic literatures: nayam atma bala-hinena labhyaḥ. You cannot become self-realized without the help of, without the mercy of Baladeva. Now, our Vivekananda Swami, he interpreted that "Unless you become stout and strong like the bulls and the buffalo, you cannot realize self." He interpreted like that. So he engaged people to make gymnastic, exercise. "You become very stout and strong, eat meat, and..." This is going on. This philosophy is going on. Bala-hinena. "Unless you become as strong as a tiger, you cannot realize yourself." This interpretation is going on. Bala-hinena labhyaḥ. Therefore they are... Always they put this argument, that "Our countrymen is suffering. There is no food. First of all we must give them food, make them strong, stout. Then we shall talk about Krsna consciousness." Do they not say like that?
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is another nonsense. Bala-hinena does not mean this physical strength. Bala-hin... Bala, bala means spiritual strength, Baladeva. Baladeva is spiritual strength. Nityananda. Balarama haila nitai.
Brahmananda: Hina, hina. Bala-hina?
Prabhupada: Hina means without. And bala means strength. So sastra says, nayam atma bala-hinena labhyaḥ: "One who is less strong, or one who has no support of the strength, then he cannot make any progress in spiritual..., self-realization." This is the Vedic injunction. So they interpret that unless you become physically strong, you cannot make any spiritual advancement. So? But in the Western countries we have seen, so many people physically very strong, stout and strong. Practically everyone. But what is their self..., advancement in self-realization? So these things are going on. So bala means spiritual strength, not material strength. Nayam atma bala-hinena labhyaḥ. That means one must be spiritually strong. And that spiritually strong means to have good faith in Krsna and guru. That is spiritual strength. Therefore Baladeva means guru, spiritual strength. Balarama haila nitai. Nitaiyer karuna habe... What is that song? Nitaiyer karuna habe vraje radha-krsna pabe. He is... "If there is mercy of Nitai, then..." [aside:] That Visvamsena, call him. [calls out to someone who is apparently leaving] [Hindi]
Indian man: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: Aiye, saheb.
Indian man: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: Aiye.
Indian man: [Hindi] What is... What shall I do, coming?
Prabhupada: Sit down. You can make some space. Aiye, aiye.
Indian man: [Hindi] [break]
Prabhupada: ...the verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam,
idam hi pumsas tapasaḥ srutasya va
sv-istasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam [SB 1.5.22] That everyone is situated in some business, occupation. So it is the duty of the person, never mind in whatever occupation he is engaged, uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam, to glorify the Supreme Lord. It doesn't matter whether he is a medical man or he is an engineer or a lawyer, or whatever he may be, politician, his only business is by his occupational duties to glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the basic principle of Krsna consciousness movement. We do not advise that you change your place. There is no need of changing place. Sthane sthitaḥ. This is the Brahma's version. Sthane sthitaḥ sruti-gatam tanu-vah-manobhiḥ. You remain your..., in your occupation, your position, but kindly hear. Therefore we have got so many sastras, Vedic... Therefore the Vedic literature is known as sruti. One has to hear. But that education is lacking. Nobody is hearing the Vedic literature. They are hearing so many other things, but not... Therefore Bhagavata says, srotavyadini rajendra nrnam santi sahasrasaḥ. Srotavyadini. The business is to hear.
But,
Grhesu. We are now compact in our home. You take universal home or your house home or this body home, we are within. So grhesu grha-medhinam. Because we have taken that the home business is everything. Grhesu grha-medhinam. And who has taken like this? Apasyatam atma-tattvam: one who cannot see the "What is the value of my existence," atma-tattvam. So for them, srotavyadini rajendra nrnam santi sahasrasaḥ, they have got many things to hear. Here, of course, in India, we have got newspaper, four pages, five pages, but in the foreign countries, especially in America, they'll present newspaper so big. Therefore there is paper scarcity. You see? Unnecessarily printing so much, huge quantity of newspaper. And people... Sometimes they do not touch it. The newspaper man throws in everyone's bungalow, and it is lying for three days. So who is going to read? But they are making their business, because they get advertisement. In the... Many news. So they have got to hear or understand so many news, but not this Bhagavatam. They'll devote the whole day for reading this newspaper or some fiction or some novels, for this and that. Some political talks and... But they have no time to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. Apasyatam atma... Because they have no, no interest in self-realization. There is no interest. People have lost all interest. This is the position. Therefore this Krsna consciousness movement is essential at the present moment. Now, these European and Americans, they have enough heard about all these nonsense. Therefore they are anxious to hear about self-realization.
[Hindi] He was punishable. It was the duty of the government to see that "You are posing yourself as brahmana. Whether you are doing the duty of a brahmana?" If he's not doing, then he was punished. Therefore nobody was unemployed. A brahmana is doing his duty, ksatriya's doing his duty, vaisya his duty. We get this information from Maharaja Prthu's kingdom. He, he was very strict, that whether one is doing his duty. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ [Bg 4.13]. If the brahmana is doing his duty, the ksatriya is doing his duty and vaisya is doing his duty, then where is the unemployment? And it is the duty of the government to see that everyone is doing his duty.
Indian man (2): [indistinct] in the society.
Prabhupada: No, no. Society means this combination of all these men. So if everyone is doing his duty, then it is quite all right. That is perfect society. Society means some combination of men. So if every man perfectly does his duty, then there is no question of imperfect...
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the difficulty. That is the difficulty. That I was explaining, that at the present moment, mostly person, they are sūdras. Just like in your body there are four divisions: your head division, your arm division, your belly division and your leg division. And if you cut off everything, simply you keep the legs, then what will be done? So at the present moment there is no brahmana, no ksatriya. Maybe some vaisyas only. Only sūdras. Therefore there is chaos. If the division is made, kept, as it is advised in the Bhagavad-gita, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ [Bg 4.13] According to guna and karma, then the society is maintained very nicely, properly. If your head is working nicely, if your arms are working nicely, if your stomach is working nicely, leg is working..., then you are fit. But if you have got only legs, and head..., there is no head, there is no arm, then what is the...? Dead society.
So we are giving education at the present moment to become sūdras. Paricaryatmakam karyam sūdra-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44]. To serve others. A brahmana will not serve anyone else. A ksatriya will not serve anyone else. A vaisya will not serve anyone else. Only the sūdras. So at the present moment, we are giving sūdra education. Everyone is taking one application: "Give me some service." "No vacancy, sir." Therefore it is said, kalau sūdra-sambhavaḥ [Skanda Purana]. In the Kali-yuga everyone is sūdra. And how you can have good government by the sūdras? Ksatriya required. Just like Maharaja Pariksit. He was touring. As soon as he saw one man is killing cow, "Who are you, rascal, killing cow in my kingdom?" Ksatriya. Give protection, even to the cows. Praja means one who has taken birth in that land. Why he should not be given protection? But because they are sūdras, they do not know what is the ksatriya's duty, what is the government's duty. This is the position. Am I right or wrong?
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: No, I am speaking according to our sastras.
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: No, no. In those days the whole planet was Bharata-varsa. Therefore it is called Mahabharata.
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: That was not small. That was very big. Pariksit Maharaja was going on tour because he was the emperor of the whole planet.
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Now it is divided.
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: No, that was another thing. That was for..., fight for the right cause. Not for... It may be politically like that, but the division was there: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra. And the last, Krsna's compromising plan was that "After all, they are ksatriyas, these five brothers. They cannot take the business of a vaisya or brahmana. So give them five villages so that they may be satisfied, ruling over these..." "No, not even land holding the upper portion of the needle." Then there was fight. Then there was fight.
So as far as possible... Of course, our this movement is creating brahmanas. People now require a brahmana, the head. Of course, we are not manufacturing anything. Everything is there. Everything is there in the sastra. We do not invent anything. Yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karataḥ [Bg 16.23]. The, we are trying to follow as far as possible, and we are teaching that, that whatever is there...
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: You are coming from Burdow?
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Near Lucknow?
Indian man (2): No.
Indian man (1): Near Bareilly.
Prabhupada: Bareilly. Oh.
Indian man (2): [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Oh. [end]
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