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Svarupa Damodara: He wants to help us. He has many degrees-in chemistry, in pathology, in engineering. He said if we have an institute like this...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarupa Damodara: ...it would be very easy to defeat Mayavadis.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Because they claim that they are Vedantists...

Prabhupada: They are nonsense.

Svarupa Damodara: ...but they have no bhakti. So we are in the line of Bhaktivedanta, so he said that this is the way to counteract the so-called Mayavadis or Vedantists.

Prabhupada: They're atheist. More than atheist. They have been described by Caitanya Mahaprabhu as more dangerous than the atheist. Veda namaniya bauddha haila nastika, vedasraye nastikyavada bauddha ke adhika. [Cc Madhya 6.168]. They take the shelter of Vedas and preach atheism.

Svarupa Damodara: They say they do not accept what it is all said in the Vedas. They accept something and they reject something.

Prabhupada: That is nonsense.

Svarupa Damodara: Sometimes they say that whatever they say must be supplemented from the Vedas. It's contradiction.

Pusta Krsna: They support the proposition that in different Vedas different things are stressed, therefore...

Prabhupada: Therefore we should accept Bhagavad-gita, the summarized Veda. Or Srimad-Bhagavatam. Or Vedanta-sutra.

Svarupa Damodara: It's a mystery why they don't accept Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Because they cannot poke their nose there. Then it will be cut off. [laughter] But still they are attempting to cheat by reading Srimad-Bhagavatam. Very dangerous. [break]

Pusta Krsna: Although, Srila Prabhupada, it's somewhat easy for us to convince that Srimad-Bhagavatam is the summary study of all the Vedic literatures, how can we take that Bhagavad-gita is the summary study?

Prabhupada: It is preliminary study of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Bhagavad-gita ends; from there Srimad-Bhagavatam begins.

[break] Publish your book gradually in the magazine Sa-vijnanam.

Rupanuga: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Rupanuga: In the journal, by.... Step by step.

Prabhupada: Ah. Then publish in a book.

Rupanuga: That's good. Like we did with your Bhagavatam one time, we made little chapter editions. [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...when they mention that the trees, the trunk of the trees we'll use for clothes. Barks of trees?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: How would they do that? Would they take the same type of...

Prabhupada: They knew how to do it. [break]

Rupanuga: ...question about geology.

Prabhupada: [chuckling] What do I know about geology?

Svarupa Damodara: In geology, there are certain rocks, especially in the West Coast, they found out that the top layer in the rock is older than the one in the bottom. Upside down.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarupa Damodara: And they have several explanations, mostly based on speculation.

Prabhupada: Everything speculation. The down portion is older, no?

Svarupa Damodara: No, the... In these rocks, the upper one is older according to their calculation by dating method, geological dating method, and the younger one is at the bottom. First I wanted to contact our prabhu at the..., Bob?

Hari-sauri: Bob Cohen.

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, Bob Cohen, our geology... Sometime Prabhupada had talked with this boy?

Rupanuga: In a Back to Godhead article.

Prabhupada: I don't remember.

Svarupa Damodara: We are going to contact him, get some more information. So how do we explain these things?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: How do we explain from our point of view? The upside-down of the rocks.

Prabhupada: I cannot fight. First of all, we do not bother about these things.

Svarupa Damodara: But they are going to bring up these points, and therefore we say something. But we must know something how to counteract them. One point is that the...

Prabhupada: It can be explained, that when there is devastation...

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...the rock...

Devotee: Turned over.

Prabhupada: ...rolled. It was like that.

Svarupa Damodara: Catastrophism.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then the whole thing will be filled up with water. So water force is very heavy. So it can turn even big, big rocks, mountains rolling.

Svarupa Damodara: That happens when there is devastation.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: At the end of Manu's day, when there is flood?

Prabhupada: End of the day of Brahma. End of fourteen Manus.

Pusta Krsna: At that time is the earth destroyed, or is it simply covered by water?

Prabhupada: Covered by water.

Svarupa Damodara: That can explain many facts, because they're having great difficulty in finding these old fossils, in Siberia and all these other places. They find some very strange fossils, which are not supposed to be there according to their theory.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarupa Damodara: But if we accept this catastrophism, that can explain many facts.

Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact.

Pusta Krsna: The rocks also have offspring, if they're living?

Prabhupada: That offspring is mouse. [laughter] There is information the rocks were flying.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, flying. Mountains, some mountains are flying.

Prabhupada: Yes. Indra cut off their wings. [break]

Devotee (1): ...it's true that people are getting disease and sicknesses and so forth as the result of their past activities, pious or sinful. Why is it that it appears that when there is a flu many people are inflicted with that flu? Practically everyone, indiscriminately.

Prabhupada: All of them? Hmm. "Birds of the same feather flock together," see.

Devotee (1): [laughs] What about when it happens amongst the community of devotees or some..., hepatitis or malaria, or something of that nature?

Prabhupada: Hmm? It is also past sins.

Devotee: Purification?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (1): Well the materialists will say, "You're just accepting it that way. The reality is that you're becoming sick just like anyone else."

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee (1): The scientist or materialist will say, "You're just becoming sick like anyone else, but you're saying it's just..., that you're becoming purified."

Prabhupada: Hmm. Well? What we have to do?

Pusta Krsna: It's a fact, though, when people are suffering they're neutralizing their sinful reactions.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is the wrong there? [break]

Devotee (1): ...becoming purified from this suffering, then why isn't it when we're sick, why is it that we forget Krsna, we become disgusted, and after we are sick we don't feel any more advanced than before? [break]

Prabhupada: ...purified, you will not be sick. [break]

Svarupa Damodara: ...the difference between the materialist and the transcendentalist.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Svarupa Damodara: Materialist always thinks that they will try to overcome the laws of nature, and when the laws of nature catch over...

Prabhupada: Sudhyeta sattva [SB 5.5.1]. Sometimes the spiritual master has to suffer for the sinful activities of the disciples. [break] Devotees suffering is shortcut. For the karmis it would have been a huge suffering, but devotee is excused.

Devotee (2): So then if he is sincere, then he should not be so sick in due time; his health should be good if he's practicing. If a devotee is practicing principles, then he should become healthy.

Svarupa Damodara: No, you cannot avoid sickness.

Devotee (2): No, but I mean overall, generally.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (2): Devotees are generally healthier than karmis.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Rupanuga: Once there was this brahmacari, he used to complain to you about how sick he was all the time, and you said, "Are you not brahmacari? Are you not following the brahmacari principles?" which implied that if he were doing it sincerely he would not be so sick all the time.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.

Svarupa Damodara: Devotee is sick, and he also knows that this is the mercy of the Lord so he doesn't complain in its real sense. But the material body is bound to suffer.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...you are convinced that you are not this body, then there is no suffering.

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, that's the clue.

Prabhupada: As you identify with the body, then you suffer. [break] ...motorcar is damaged, you are not damaged, but because you have got attachment for the motorcar, you suffer.

[break] ...song by Narottama dasa Thakura, deha smrti nahi yara, samsara-bandhana kahaṅ tara. [Cc Madhya 13.142] One who has forgotten that he is this body, he has no suffering. [break]

Devotee (1): Then, Sanatana Gosvami had all those infections in his body, and Lord Caitanya embraced him, he felt so distressed and so lowly.

Prabhupada: Hmm, so instructs us that even Sanatana Gosvami had to suffer. What you are, nonsense? You should not be sorry for suffering. That is the instruction. Why you are trying to avoid suffering? That is the instruction.

Devotee (1): Sanatana Gosvami, he accepted this sickness as a result of his own sinful past activities, he was so humble.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee: So we should follow that example and accept like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the instruction. Tat te 'nukampam [SB 10.14.8]. "It is Your mercy, my Lord, that I would have suffered hundred times more than this; You are giving me little suffering." That is devotee's view, that "I am so sinful, I would have suffered hundred times more than what I am suffering. But You are so kind that You are giving me little suffering and adjusting the account."

[break] ...thinks like that, for him, back to home, back to Godhead, is guaranteed. That is the bhagavata-dharma. Mukti-pade sa daya-bhak. [SB 10.14.8] One who lives like that, doesn't care for suffering, goes on with his duty, that person is sure to go back to home, back to Godhead. Just like a son is sure to inherit the father's property. Daya-bhak, this word is used. Mukti-pade sa daya-bhak. Legally heritage. Hah? What is called?

Devotee: Inheritance.

Prabhupada: Inheritance, yes. Legally inheritance. [break] The problem is we're afraid of suffering. Let there be so many, what is that? Let me do my duty.

Svarupa Damodara: From these sufferings actually we know that this material world is full of misery.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: So how to get out this misery, that is the point, next step.

Prabhupada: A pure devotee, he is not hankering after how to get out of the misery. They do not care for misery.

Svarupa Damodara: Misery in the sense the material concept?

Prabhupada: Yes. [break]

Devotee (2): ...have to cultivate this tolerance, not only a physical pain, but sometimes other pains.

Prabhupada: Tolerance…Trnad api sunicena. [Sri Siksastaka 3] Tolerance than the grass, everyone is trampling; he doesn't change. Taror api sahisnuna. You have to learn these things.

Rupanuga: Lord Caitanya says if we are tolerant then we can chant the holy name of the Lord purely.

Devotee: But the scientists, they'll laugh at us, and they'll say, "We are helping to..."

Prabhupada: And we laugh at us, so what is the wrong? We laugh at them. We tell them. So that struggle will go on.

Rupanuga: But we will laugh last.

Devotee (1): No, they'll say, "You're chanting Hare Krsna, but I can give you this pill and I'll take away your pain," or "I can give you this medicine and correct your disease. You're chanting, but I am not seeing a practical result."

Prabhupada: No, I will say, "Because I'm chanting you, you are my servant, you have brought the pill. [laughter] Because I am chanting, therefore Krsna has sent the pill through you."

Rupanuga: "You're simply working..."

Prabhupada: "You're simply working as my servant, that's all."

Rupanuga: They can make... We'll chant and dance, and they can make the car to take us on kirtana, make the pills so we can keep healthy.

Svarupa Damodara: The best pill is this hari-nama.

Rupanuga: Actually, Srila Prabhupada, you are the great physician. Everyone should come under your treatment. They're taking this hari-nama as a bitter pill. But we are tasting it now, and after chanting and chanting, we're tasting, it's becoming sweeter and sweeter.

Prabhupada: Hmm. This is all of our cars?

Devotees: Oh, yes. [end]