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Prabhupada: ...Sukadeva Goswami whats does he say?

Sukadeva: About the origin of the universe?

Prabhupada: No.

Pusta Krsna: Chance theory.

Sukadeva: To prove that theory of chance.

Prabhupada: And still they accept it?

Sukadeva: Yes.

Prabhupada: What do you think?

Pusta Krsna: There's no evidence, because you've explained many times that an orange always comes from an orange tree, a banana always comes from a banana tree, man always comes from man, and monkey always comes from monkey. We find that actually things are not happening by chance. That they're very much controlled.

Prabhupada: There is. Nobody can deny it. Only this tenth-class man will deny it. Even third-class man, fourth class, he will not deny. But what is that intelligence, one should make it a research. Intelligence there is, no doubt about it.

Pusta Krsna: There's another theory: that God created the universe, and then things are just happening haphazardly. There's no actual design or ultimate plan of creation. Simply He created, and things were set in motion.

Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. Just like the seed, banyan tree seed, every plan is there: how the tree will grow, how the fruits will flower, flowers will come. Everything is there. That is intelligence. Within a small seed everything is there, potency. Saktir vividvaiva [Cc Madhya 13.65, purport]. Sarvavidya. It comes certainly.

Pusta Krsna: One thing though, people, they see that there's birth and death; they don't understand the purpose of the whole creation when they see that so many things are going on like this.

Prabhupada: There is purpose. We have explained so many times. The purpose is that we have come here to enjoy, but this enjoyment is false. God has given us the chance to enjoy, to experience that this enjoyment is not good. It is simply suffering. It is not enjoyment. The plan is that he's given the chance to enjoy and experience that here there is no enjoyment and he's simply suffering. So when he comes to his sense, he again goes back home. The thief, he thinks that to live in the prison house is very good: "I haven't got to work, and I shall get my food and shelter." That is not... That is a false enjoyment. Outside the prison, that is enjoyment. If one thinks that "I don't have to work; let me go to the prison house." Father wants that the sons should live in the family, but sometimes the son leaves the family and wants to enjoy independently. So he suffers. bhuliya jiva bhoga-vancha kare pasete maya tare japatiya dhare.

Sukadeva: Some philosophers feel that this understanding of God actually is no more than simply a wish.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Sukadeva: They feel that it is no more than a wish. That it is just simply a desire.

Prabhupada: What your wish? You are also taking the chance, a wish that things must act like this. But that is not happening.

Sukadeva: It is just like a person who wants to turn all the metal in the world into gold. He may be wishing and desiring to turn everything into gold, but actually it is not possible. So therefore they say that we want to be protected against the onslaught of material nature. But actually that will never happen. So therefore they create God in this way. Or some person who wants to turn all the metal into gold, but actually it's not possible.

Prabhupada: But what you are doing? You are also doing everything hoping that you'll feel happy. Practically you're not doing anything. [aside:] Hare Krsna.

Pusta Krsna: They think that everything was created just so that we could enjoy for a few years and then die.

Prabhupada: Yes. Unless they have solved the problems of death, all their hopes are useless. [break] ...is Sada...? What is that?

Hari-sauri: Sadaputa.

Prabhupada: Sadaputa. He has said nicely that "They depend on chance. We depend on God." That's all. [break] Some dress? No, bird.

Pusta Krsna: No, they have some bathing trunks on.

Hari-sauri: Sometimes they wear like a rubber suit. Something like the scales of a fish. It keeps them... [laughing]

Pusta Krsna: Aldous Huxley liked to think of the idea that there's no controller, so that he could enjoy without the feeling of guilt.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the whole idea. Thieves and rogues, they think, "If there's no government, then we can do whatever we like." The desire of the thieves and rogues.

Hari-sauri: That description's given when after the brahmanas killed King Vena, they saw a great, huge dust cloud on the horizon from all the thieves and rogues rushing back into the kingdom [laughing] when there was no ruler.

Pusta Krsna: Why doesn't he come to his senses there and then, that "What have I done? Why don't I become God conscious?"

Prabhupada: [chuckles] That is maya. Just like these surfer. What is that? They are in hell. But they have no sense that "What you are enjoying? It is hell." They are thinking they are enjoying. Is that enjoyment? It is actually hell. But he's thinking he's enjoying. That is called maya. He's accepting something what is not. That is maya. A hog eating stool, and he's thinking he's enjoying. This is called maya. There are different grades of suffering, and still they are thinking they are enjoying.

Sukadeva: To really enjoy life you have to suffer a little bit...

Prabhupada: He doesn't know what is enjoyment. That is the...

Pusta Krsna: So simply suffering is not a qualification for becoming God conscious then?

Prabhupada: Hah?

Pusta Krsna: Simply to suffer is not qualification for becoming God conscious?

Prabhupada: Why suffering? Where is suffering? What you are suffering? We are God conscious. We are suffering?

Pusta Krsna: No. No. Ah...

Hari-sauri: He means for approaching God consciousness.

Pusta Krsna: It is a prerequisite.

Prabhupada: I do not under...

Pusta Krsna: So we see that, in other words, when someone goes to hell...

Prabhupada: But he does not take it as suffering. Take it as enjoyment.

Hari-sauri: Once you understand it's suffering, ah...

Prabhupada: So unfortunate that they're taking suffering as enjoyment. This is called maya. Mayara vase yaccha bhese khacha habudubu... [Gitavali] Surfer, he is struggling against the waves, and they're thinking it is enjoyment. Chance of being drowned, being attacked by some sea animals. It is always risky and suffering, and still they're thinking enjoyment. But they're coming from far distant place to enjoy this.

Hari-sauri: They get their enjoyment from taking a risk.

Prabhupada: That's all. That is called maya. What is not suffering, they're taking risk as enjoyment.

Pusta Krsna: Material life is great suffering.

[break] ...totally insensitive that they take such suffering to be enjoyment.

Prabhupada: This is their punishment. They are being punished, but if you think that "I am punished," they will die. You must take it "I'm enjoying." This is maya's arrangement. They are being punished, but punishment they are taking as enjoyment. Illusion. The conditioned soul is illusioned. This is illusion. He is being punished, and he's thinking "I am enjoying." That is a concession. When he's punished, he may not be overcome with the unhappiness. Therefore he's thinking "I'm enjoying." Actually he's being punished. [break]

Sukadeva: ...saying, though, you have to laugh to keep from crying.

Prabhupada: Hah?

Sukadeva: There's an old saying that things sometimes become so miserable that you have to laugh to keep from crying. So in the material world they have to keep laughing because everything is very miserable.

Prabhupada: Example. just like a criminal is put into the prison house for being punished, he will say, "Just see, I am living happily. I haven't got to work. I'm getting my food." [laughing] Such, I mean, shameless. He does not know that "I am put here for suffering." But he's thinking, "I'm so living happily, that's all. I haven't got to work. Other men, they're going to the office, to the factory. I am eating." [laughing] He forgets actually he's put into the prison house for being..., to suffer. He doesn't come to his senses. Therefore again when he's released, again he comes. He thinks that it is... In Bengal they call Sasura-badi. Sasura-badi, just like son-in-law goes to father-in-law's, and he's well received. So they think that prison house is sasura-badi, father in-law's house.

Hari-sauri: In the West they experience that, that many of the men that go out of prison, they immediately commit some crime so that they can go straight back in...

Prabhupada: Yes. They think it is very nice. Yes. This is called maya. He's into suffering, but he thinks this is very nice. It is called praksepatmika…. Avaranatmika sakti: [Paramatma-sandarbha 54] covering potency. It is covered. Stools, worms. You take the stool worm from the stool and keep it aside, again it will go to that side. [laughing] "This is enjoyment. Why you are taking me from this?" [laughing]

Hari-sauri: Like the cockroaches. If you make everything clean, they go away.

Sukadeva: In Washington, all of the bums were going there and staying in the prison, and it was costing the government a great amount of money. So they passed the law that they were not going to put the drunks in jail any more because it was costing them such a big expense. They all want to go to jail.

Hari-sauri: What about when someone goes to the hellish regions, though? He actually suffers there?

Prabhupada: Yes. Of course. But he thinks that "I am enjoying."

Hari-sauri: Oh. 'Cause after reading the descriptions in the Bhagavatam, it seems it's pretty horrific.

Prabhupada: Well, when one is accustomed, then he thinks it is enjoyment.

Hari-sauri: Oh, and then he goes into another body to enjoy.

Prabhupada: They're going to become fish. Now they are being trained up how to become fish. So after this body is finished, they'll take a body of fish. When one becomes fish he doesn't know that this is punishment. He says that it is very nice. Concession by maya, that he's put into suffering, but he'll think that "I am enjoying." This is mercy of maya.

[break] ...anesthetic in surgical operation. Surgical operation, that is suffering, but if you apply some anesthetic, you do not perceive. It is like that. [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...solution for this?

Prabhupada: Solution chanting. That's all. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta saṅgah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51].

Devotee: In the fish body will he have to suffer for all his other sinful activities also?

Prabhupada: That is the beginning of suffering, to become fish, and then millions and millions of years he has to evolve himself to different life. [end]