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Prabhupada: God created the soul and the matter also. Has he discussed anything?

Hayagriva: No.

Prabhupada: God created everything. God created soul and the matter.

Hayagriva: The individual soul.

Prabhupada: Ah.

Hayagriva: Well, then, how is the individual soul eternal if it has a beginning?

Prabhupada: No, we say there is no beginning. As God has no beginning, soul has no beginning.

Hayagriva: No beginning, yes.

Prabhupada: Na jayate na mriyate va [Bg 2.20]. That is the distinction between matter and soul.

Pusta Krsna: They counter that if God is all-powerful, He can do anything. So why not He can create a soul, and that soul can then be eternal from that point?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Pusta Krsna: The Christian may argue that God is all-powerful, so God has created the soul, and from that point the soul is eternal.

Prabhupada: Soul is eternal, we admit.

Pusta Krsna: But only from that point, not in the past.

Prabhupada: Not in the past?

Pusta Krsna: Yes, because according to Biblical philosophy you only have one lifetime in this world.

Prabhupada: Then? Who goes to heaven?

Pusta Krsna: Persons who adopt the principles.

Prabhupada: And if one life, then who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

Pusta Krsna: Very few go to heaven.

Prabhupada: Anyone, if he goes to hell or heaven, then why do you say "one life"? Then another life. Otherwise what is the meaning of going to heaven or hell?

Hari-sauri: No. They get one chance to do good or bad, and then finish.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hari-sauri: They get one chance: do good or bad. Then you either go to heaven or to hell. But you don't get another chance.

Prabhupada: But if he goes heaven means there is another life. How do you say "one life"? This is defective philosophy.

Pusta Krsna: "But this is what God has said in the Bible; therefore we must accept."

Prabhupada: Eh?

Pusta Krsna: "This is what God has said in the Bible; therefore we must accept."

Prabhupada: God, if He says something unreasonable, how it can be accepted? You say "one life." Then who goes to the next life? That is defective. That is not proper. [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...cannot explain why some people are born in a more pious setting and some people are born in a more impious setting.

Prabhupada: Because they do not know the karma. Karmana daiva netrena [SB 3.31.1]. According to one's activities, pious or impious, he gets the next birth. That is qualification. But they do not believe in karma. When I was student in Scottish Churches College, so we had to attend class, half an hour, Bible. So the Dr. Urquhart, he did... The argument was: "So if karma is there and I am suffering for my karma, who is the witness?" But because they do not know that the witness is God.

Pusta Krsna: He asked that question?

Prabhupada: Yes, he asked that question, philosopher. [break] Paramatma... They say "Holy Ghost." What is that Holy Ghost?

Pusta Krsna: The Holy Ghost is supposed to give knowledge to persons who have embraced the teaching.

Prabhupada: Therefore He is seeing what you are doing. So according to your action, the Holy Ghost gives you another birth.

[break] ...sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati.

[break] ...dictating everyone's heart, and He is observing. Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg 18.61].

[break]

Pusta Krsna: ...contends that if a person does not become fully aware in this lifetime of God, then they don't have another chance, and they are condemned to hell for eternity.

Prabhupada: The hell or heaven doesn't matter. The next life is there. How you say "one life"? That is defective theory. Therefore this philosophy cannot be accepted. Anything which is defective is not to be accepted.

Pusta Krsna: Simply dogma.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...is rejected. That is Vedic process.

Hari-sauri: Actually, there's so many different understandings that the Christians have of the same thing. They all have different type of philosophy.

Hayagriva: No, Christ never said that. Christ never said you only have one life.

Prabhupada: So that is real philosophy. That is real philosophy.

Hayagriva: This is the... All of this evolved from the Church fathers.

Prabhupada: That is all defective, unscrupulous.

Radha-vallabha: [break] ...come up to us on saṅkirtana, and they are smoking a cigarette, and they say, "Do you accept Jesus Christ?"

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Radha-vallabha: They say, "You cannot be successful unless you accept Jesus Christ like us." But they were smoking.

Prabhupada: We accept. Rather, you do not accept. Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." We strictly observe that, but you kill. You are not a Christian.

Hari-sauri: "But that's just an ideal, the Ten Commandments. You're not expected to follow."

Prabhupada: No, that is your explanation. [laughter] That is your concoction. [break] ...take it. As soon as you disobey Ten Commandments, you are not a Christian. You are heathen. [break] And the thing is that religious faith should not be discussed on philosophy, because everyone has got some..., his own concocted faith. That is not philosophy. Faith is different. "I believe," "You believe," "I do not believe"-that is not philosophy.

[break] ...philosophy in Bhagavad-gita that asmin dehe... Dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg 2.13], there is soul. This is philosophy. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental concoction. So both of them should be combined. Then it is perfect. [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...can be given, though, that man's logic is so tiny, pea brain, and God's logic is so great, so how can actually man discuss the logic of God?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Pusta Krsna: The argument is given that God is infinitely great.

Prabhupada: Then don't discuss. Sleep. If you cannot understand God's logic and God's philosophy, then don't discuss. Stop discussion.

Radha-vallabha: Jewish people say that you can't chant the name of God because it is too sacred.

Prabhupada: Yes, too sacred, that's... Actually that's a fact. And those who are too sinful, they cannot chant. [break] ...these ten kinds of offenses. [break]

Radha-vallabha: ...that God has put the world here for us to enjoy, so we will please Him by enjoying it. [break]

Prabhupada: However, you go at four o'clock to your working place and come at night, ten. Is that enjoyment?

Radha-vallabha: But on the weekend we can go to the beach. And we can eat whatever we want.

Prabhupada: No, no, you can go to hell also. Different thing...

[break] ...jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanu [Bg 13.9]. That is there. If you are suffering from disease, where is enjoyment? Mental discomfort, bodily discomfort. You are taking thrice pills for tranquility. Is that enjoyment?

Radha-vallabha: They say you have to take the good with the bad.

Prabhupada: This nonsense enjoyment. Fool's paradise. For keeping the mind in tranquility he is taking four times pills. For sleeping, he is taking pill. Does he enjoy that?

Radha-vallabha: By suffering you can get a deeper appreciation...

Prabhupada: Then what is enjoyment? Suffer. Then why it is called enjoyment? By suffering you can call it is enjoyment...

[indistinct-much static from here on]

Pusta Krsna: They claim that Christ died for them, and do as [indistinct]. And then he walked out [indistinct]. So they think he is very special, because this has not happened to anyone else. And this can happen to everyone who accepts the same...

Prabhupada: We say nobody dies. What did Christ... Na jayate na mriyate. [Bg 2.20] never takes birth never dies.

Radha-vallabha: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That's all right. What is the objection?

Radha-vallabha: They don't catch fish for eating. They catch them just to have fun catching the fish. Then they let them go. [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...Old Testament, there's a statement that anyone who sees God will die. So how is it possible for anyone to see God and still remain to have the experience?

Prabhupada: "[indistinct] that you live and see Me"?

Pusta Krsna: In the Bible it says that...

Prabhupada: In the Bible it says that God is omnipotent.

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: He can make one so he can see Him.

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: Then where is the objection? You cannot see Him. God may not give you that benediction. But if He gives somebody benediction, "Yes, you see and live," where is the objection?

Pusta Krsna: It appears that they have created a philosophy or a dogma to keep people in darkness.

Prabhupada: Therefore it is better not to discuss. Discussing, waste of time. [break]

Radha-vallabha: Patrick says that Hare Krsna is the most dangerous organization, and it should be stopped by any means.

Prabhupada: Who?

Radha-vallabha: Ted Patrick. This is the man that convinces devotees to leave the movement.

Hari-sauri: The deprogrammer.

Radha-vallabha: He kidnaps them. In his book he says that Hare Krsna movement is very, very dangerous, and he urges everyone to cooperate together to stop this movement.

Pusta Krsna: That's in an advertisement to parents, because he gets money from the parents. The parents give a lot of money because the young people join our movement.

Radha-vallabha: He describes how we had one devotee inside a house. Many devotees came and called, chanting "Haribol! Haribol!" He said that it was terrifying. [laughter] He once kidnapped a devotee in Los Angeles while he was on saṅkirtana, and he was telling him how he was going to deprogram him from Krsna consciousness, and this boy said, "It is impossible." And Patrick said, "I have done so many of these people." And the boy said, "But this is the first time you've tried to do it to a book distributor." And after some time he just gave up, and the boy left, came back to the temple. [break]

Pusta Krsna: ...different philosophies and religions are very, very trivial compared to the Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Yes. [indistinct]

Hari-sauri: No mental concoction. Just fact. [break] [end]