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Tamala Krsna: ...are completely against us. Phew. He says Giriraja and himself are meeting leading Hindus like Sadaji Vitlal, etc. He said, "We will have to bring up the Calcutta incident in Parliament." He says this has to be brought up in Parliament. "It was just like Uganda." Just like what happened in Uganda. Whole thing is a plot of the Communists.

Prabhupada: And it has gone to the Central Government?

Tamala Krsna: You said that. I guess you must have got that information from the newspaper. I didn't know that. I mean just see. Fifty of them together stealing the grass. That's organized. Two hundred and fifty people waiting in the bushes, knowing that we will try to stop them from stealing, and suddenly they all rush into the gate, destroy the gate, cut the wires, cut the telephone line, destroy the waterpumps. Every one of these things is criminal. We did not do anything wrong, no wrong in any case. And yet they arrest us. The American government... Actually this should be pushed from the American government. That will have tremendous effect. We should let the American government defend us.

Prabhupada: Is the Consulate has come?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. The Consulate went to Mayapur.

Prabhupada: We already said that this is a Communist plan.

Tamala Krsna: They stripped a woman naked. Look at how these Muslims behaved. And after all these years of our distributing prasadam, and still they act like this.

Prabhupada: They are Communist group. Muslims are not so bad, but the Communists... They are... Communists are creating as Hindu-Muslim or like that, religious group. He has written something about Communists?

Tamala Krsna: He says, "Since the Communists took power in West Bengal, the police are caring less for religious groups." Before, the police would always give religious groups protection. Now they don't care. I mean just see, they didn't come for two hours, and then they said, "Come down and file a complaint." And when we came down, immediately arrested. This same thing happened in New York. They told Adi-kesa Maharaja and the other boy, Trayi dasa, "You come down to file some statement." As soon as they came down they said, "You're under arrest." Same trick.

[break] ...infirmary and they come in and they... I mean, what kind of... I never heard of that. Someone is in the infirmary being treated and they beat him worse. And the newspapers all report it the other way.

Prabhupada: Because the government is Communist.

Tamala Krsna: Right. The newspapers are being told what to print. They're afraid to print anything else. But foreign press can print anything. And other press, Delhi press, Bombay press, they can print anything. This was dated the eleventh.

Prabhupada: Government published this. The Statesman, therefore, has not given any description.

Tamala Krsna: I didn't notice. Here's a little news clipping. It's probably the same. You probably have seen this already. This is from Indian Express. "Why Krishna Mandir Men Fired Salvo." By a... "An attack on the devotees and destruction of the premises of ISKCON Mayapur Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, led to the shooting incident, according to Mr. Gopala Krsna Dasa, Secretary, Bombay center of the organization. Mr. Dasa, in his statement issued on Monday, said the news from their sources in Bengal stated that on July 8th about fifty miscreants were found encroaching on our agricultural field and stealing our crops. When a devotee requested them to stop, they became angry and beat him up, fracturing his skull. Nearly 250 supporters of the miscreants..." Notice how they're not going to use "Muslims." They say "miscreants." They don't say "Muslims." Probably the paper wants to avoid. This is a hot issue. No one wants to write "Hindu-Muslim." "Nearly 250 supporters of the miscreants armed with sticks and spears suddenly appeared from behind the bushes and all of them entered the temple area. Mr. Dasa said the miscreants beat several more devotees, including the Gurukula school headmaster, whose both hands and skull were broken. They also stripped naked a female disciple. They cut off electrical connections, telephone lines and water pipes. The police did not come for two hours, and meanwhile the group destroyed the gate, broke windows and stole two bulls. According to ISKCON Secretary, as a final resort, one ran for a gun, appropriately licensed and registered with the government, and fired a shot in the air. As the group persisted, he fired again into the ground, which injured eleven of the miscreants. All of those injured have been discharged from the hospital." They're not injured seriously at all. "Mr. Dasa said the police advised the devotees to go to the Krishnanagar police station to report the incident, and when they did go there they were arrested. Two devotees in critical condition were also detained in the jail hospital. Asked why our men have been kept in jail, the police replied, 'As a precaution.' "

Prabhupada: This report is already there.

Tamala Krsna: Next... Says the next is: "Probe Urged Into Krishna Cultists. Chief Minister Jyoti Basu has urged the Central Government to investigate how some of the foreign Vaisnavas of Mayapur temple of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness who clashed with the villagers last weekend could return to India after extradition from the country." And he's against us. Naturally, he's a big Communist. "In his report on the incident to Home Minister Charan Singh, Mr. Basu has drawn the Center's attention to reports that these foreigners came back to India by obtaining new passports and visas. This aspect, he felt, should be inquired into." He's against us. "The US Consulate visited the asrama and met some of the American Vaisnavas. The Consulate has not lodged any complaint with the government about the Friday incident."

Prabhupada: I think he has gone.

Tamala Krsna: This whole thing is planned by the Communists. Will the government understand that? The Central Government?

Prabhupada: They surely understand.

Upendra: They're diverting the issue now.

Tamala Krsna: Well, there is no issue from their side. Upendra Prabhu is saying that they are diverting the issue, means they're bringing attention to how our men got here. Their whole point is that that is actually their intention. They want to create a situation whereby they would force us to be thrown out of the country. That's their intention. They want to drive us away.

Prabhupada: This is published in?

Tamala Krsna: This is published in the Indian Express. Daily newspaper.

Prabhupada: Bombay.

Tamala Krsna: Bombay. July 12th. There's a lot of touchy items here. One very touchy item is this Hindu-Muslim thing. And this... The Communists are very intelligent. They purposely chose... [break] What about the actual ministers? Cabinet ministers?

Prabhupada: Yes. Cabinet ministers there are sober, Morarji Desai and some of them. This Vajpayee.

Tamala Krsna: Vajpayee, right. That means that they took it that we were a threat. They are feeling the weight of our movement.

Prabhupada: They are practically seeing that we are going village to village and people are receiving us. So if these Americans push on the Hare Krsna movement, naturally people will take it. And that was my idea from the beginning, that if the Americans become Vaisnavas, then others will be. [bells sound] It is four?

Upendra: Three. [break]

Prabhupada: ...Hare Krsna men. They want Bengal completely godless.

Tamala Krsna: It's interesting to see how the Chief Minister Basu, he concentrates on only one point-"They have entered India illegally, which means now they must be asked to leave." That's the only thing he's pointed on, this one point. It's like it indicates his whole motive: "Get them out somehow." Oh, it's a very clever plan. They knew we would defend, and then on the pretext that we're taking the offense, arresting. And they knew already that we were entering with these passports changed. They already knew it. Very clever plan. The thing is that this is very much, of course... It is very, very harmful to our preaching work for the time being in Bengal.

Prabhupada: No.

Tamala Krsna: I don't think any village will receive us nicely now. They'll think that we're...

Prabhupada: No. It will be in our favor.

Tamala Krsna: In the long run.

Prabhupada: No. Very easily.

Tamala Krsna: Very what, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Very soon.

Tamala Krsna: That means the truth will come out.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: You think the Central Government will take action?

Prabhupada: I think.

Tamala Krsna: Do you think that we should approach them, or will they do it on their own?

Prabhupada: No. It is already gone there.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. The Chief Minister has sent it there.

Prabhupada: Chief Minister, before catching him as thief, he has submitted that "I am not a thief." Before catching him.

Tamala Krsna: I was thinking this. "I'm not stealing." Someone's in the house.

Prabhupada: Yes. To keep his position clear, he has approached that "I am not thief." It is like that. Just like I'm going to catch you as thief. Before my catching, you come and say, "No, no, I am not a thief," then you are a thief. Do you understand the logic? I am going to capture you as a thief. Now, before my capturing, you approach me that "I am not a thief." That means you are a thief.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. He's saying... His silence on all the points except this one point...

Prabhupada: And the behavior of the police.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Indicates that everything else is wrong. His silence in reporting that the police wanted...

Prabhupada: Not only silence. In favor of or against us. Now if the Central Government properly inquires, the whole thing will be discovered.

Tamala Krsna: And at least they're going to have to get our side. They're going to have to get our side.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: And there are certain indisputable facts. For example...

Prabhupada: Big, big ministers are in favor of our movement, Morarji Desai and Vajpayee.

Tamala Krsna: But certain things are going to have to come out. For instance, two men seriously injured are refused outside medical treatment. There's nothing they can... That can be proven.

Prabhupada: No, so many other things.

Tamala Krsna: Who gives them the right to cut the telephone wire? That's criminal. That is against the law of the government. You're cutting government property. That's not our property. Telephone wires, all those things, electric wire.

Prabhupada: That is purposefully planned.

Tamala Krsna: And how was it that 250 men suddenly were waiting in the bushes?

Prabhupada: This is all planned.

Tamala Krsna: And now we've finally got the facts on this case. We practically already knew it. I think that actually this will probably come out in all the newspapers. They held a press conference in Bombay. That means it will hit all the newspapers in India.

Prabhupada: Oh. They held?

Tamala Krsna: Oh, yeah. They held a press conference in Bombay. It says... Here it is. "The Press release, which has been... We are issuing the correct story and requesting the journals to publish the correction."

Prabhupada: Who said?

Tamala Krsna: Gopala. And Ramesvara is doing it from the international side. Because it came in all the papers. Imagine, they're getting calls from Ramesvara in Los Angeles, Jayatirtha in Africa. Jayatirtha, he visited Africa recently. [break]

Prabhupada: ...they would have done. The first news was that "The founder was not there." Otherwise the police would have charged me, that "He has given order."

Tamala Krsna: Order to fire.

Prabhupada: "Fire it." That we shall see by and by. Police can do that.

Tamala Krsna: Krsna would never let that happen to you, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: No, no, that's all right. But that very word, that "The founder was not there," that means they were expecting that if I would have been there, they would have charged that "He is in the spot, and he has ordered."

Tamala Krsna: Seems like all over the world that it's a little dangerous now. The deprogrammers, they could also say, "He is the one behind it."

Prabhupada: That they are saying.

Tamala Krsna: They would get some kind of court order. At least in Vrndavana you're safe. [Prabhupada chuckles] Two hours for the police to come.

Prabhupada: They did not like to come.

Tamala Krsna: No, that was part of the plan, not to come. "Let them have enough time to destroy everything and cause injury. Then we'll come afterwards."

Prabhupada: They do that.

Tamala Krsna: And that will also be investigated, why it took them two hours. That's worthy of investigation.

Prabhupada: And telephone was cut.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm. We didn't cut our own telephone lines. Whoever cut it should be taken to court. Criminal. Destroying government property. There's no mention here of a cow, that we beat any cow. None of these things are mentioned.

Prabhupada: So many stories fabricated.

Tamala Krsna: Fifty men stealing our crops. I've seen in Mayapur. When men steal crops, three, four men go. I never saw fifty men. Highly organized. They must have paid them to do this.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: And another thing that they probably told them is that we're trying to get their land by acquisition. "But we won't let them ever get your land. Now you do this. Drive them out of here. We won't arrest you."

Prabhupada: That is a different issue.

Tamala Krsna: They may have used that, though.

Prabhupada: The real issue is the Communists do not want any religious movement in Bengal. That is real issue.

Tamala Krsna: And we're the only one left. Ramakrishna Mission is not religious.

Prabhupada: Oh, it is not.

Tamala Krsna: Gaudiya Matha is ineffective. And the Christians are not big.

Prabhupada: These rascal, I mean to say, gunda class, they do not like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Ramakrishna also does not. They say that Caitanya had men, in Orissa also, the people emasculated. In Orissa they say that since Maharaja Prataparudra met Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he lost his ksatriya strength. He was very powerful king, but since he met Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he became effeminate.

Tamala Krsna: What is your answer to that?

Prabhupada: That is the Orissa government's principle.

Tamala Krsna: What is our answer to that? Our reply?

Prabhupada: What you can reply if you conclude something like... They have no idea of spiritual life. This is disrupting, na dhanam na janam . We don't want this. And they want it. So how you can reply? Everyone wants this, and we say, "We don't want." How you can make compromise? Therefore they say "emasculated." In your country also. "Why? What is the wrong, illicit sex? What is the wrong, intoxication?" They say, "Brainwash. Why not?" Is it not? It is very difficult to push on this movement. Still, we are going. That is Krsna's grace. [pause]

Tamala Krsna: Will you try to translate this afternoon, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Young woman at dead of night, beautiful woman, came to Haridasa Thakura to offer her body, and he denied. Who will appreciate this? [laughs]

Tamala Krsna: We appreciate.

Prabhupada: No, you appreciate, but in the modern world who will appreciate?

Tamala Krsna: They say something is wrong with Haridasa Thakura.

Prabhupada: Brainwash.

Upendra: Unhealthy. And these Arabs, they were here visiting the temple. They saw a brahmacari, and they explained brahmacari means celibate. "Oh, he is sick." "Unhealthy," they said.

Prabhupada: General idea is "How a young man can live without a young woman?" Not now. This is the material idea. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, "Oh, you are after woman? Oh, you are more than committing suicide."

Tamala Krsna: Diametrically opposed.

Prabhupada: Ha hanta ha hanta visa-bhaksanato 'pi [Cc Madhya 11.8]: "You are after woman? It is more dangerous than drinking poison." Who will accept? And Western country-"Oh, without young woman, what is life?" Madhudvisa became victimized by woman. So he became so ashamed that he left, that "My career is finished now." He's conscious.

Tamala Krsna: He is...?

Prabhupada: Conscious that "I have been victimized by woman, a sannyasi. So my career in this institution finished." He knows that. Nobody will take him seriously; therefore he left his danda, went away. Good sense, another, but he cannot. Therefore several times I called him; he did not come, that "My career is finished." This consciousness, where you'll find? And here, even a man is fallen, he's also conscious, "How much I am fallen."

[break] ...is that when a person is fallen, he is conscious that "I am fallen."

[break] It was beaten. [pause] [break]

Tamala Krsna: He says, "You told us about three years ago when we first reported some of our success to you that this was only a beginning. Little did we know at that time how much truth was in this declaration. Now we are literally seeing your fame being spread all over the three worlds."

Prabhupada: Slow.

Tamala Krsna: "Everywhere we go, people either know about you or they are very eager to find out about Krsna and yourself by reading your books. Anyone who has distributed your books in the Communist countries will support my claim that nowhere in the world are people more appreciative of your books." He's been everywhere, Prabhupada, and he says that your books are more appreciated in the Communist countries than anywhere else in the world.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are hungry.

[break] What to speak of saintly men.

[break] ...honest, satisfied with simple living. Where do...?

Tamala Krsna: People don't even know those things at all.

Prabhupada: Everyone was satisfied with simple living. They did not want much income.

Tamala Krsna: Now everyone is in anxiety.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Yes. Full of anxiety. Sada samudvigna-dhiyam [SB 7.5.5]. Because they were Krsna conscious, there was no anxiety.

Tamala Krsna: That could be the only explanation. What about the Mussulmen?

Prabhupada: They were also happy. They were also religious, according to their own way. Within, say, seventy years so much change has taken place. Horrible.

Tamala Krsna: Is there any valuable..., any benefits that took place? Any good things? Only...

Prabhupada: Change. Change for the worse.

Tamala Krsna: I think even in America things were better.

Prabhupada: There things are changing fast.

Tamala Krsna: But we keep on going strong.

Prabhupada: Every middle-class man could hold some festival and society feast very occasionally. Now cannot, they cannot even receive a guest.

Tamala Krsna: No. In fact the government for a while passed a law that prasadam could not be served to any more than so many people, such and such amount of people. They were prohibiting. I remember a couple of years ago we were trying to get ata or something, and they said, "Oh, no, you cannot have any big meetings where you feed people. We are short of things, so you cannot." "Food shortage," they said.

Prabhupada: So they are eating. That means you want to keep people starving.

Tamala Krsna: And every species is eating. We don't find that the birds have a food shortage.

Prabhupada: It is not government. Just see to the head of the government, that Bose? He's planning how to cut down religious movement, keeping aside.

Tamala Krsna: Would you like a little foot massage, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No. [pause] We read from Bhagavatam they held meeting that "We must shift from this place. The demons are disturbing. For the benefit of Krsna and Balarama we must change this place." So the meeting was held in the morning, and they decided, "Let us immediately leave." So...

Tamala Krsna: How long did it take them to shift?

Prabhupada: Just hearing, adyaiva, today, and immediately began. So how simple living was.

Tamala Krsna: If they could shift in one day they must have lived so simple.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Look at this Ramakrsna. He has to go flying down to Madras, close his account, do this, do this. How complicated life has become. And they were householders.

Prabhupada: And they shifted very organizedly. The cows, tuck bag, then the guards with bows and arrows, then old men, women, children in carts.

Tamala Krsna: They were in carts.

Prabhupada: Yes. By procession.

Tamala Krsna: The early pioneers in America, they would also go in the wagons, covered wagons. Now I understand we have one wagon going in America. It's heading towards Washington under the banner of "Simple Living and High Thinking." That will be unique. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: And everywhere, how they were well dressed, well fed, and rich in milk products. When called, people, the brahmanas give in charity cows, not at all poor.

Tamala Krsna: We were reading that one king gave fourteen lakhs' elephants covered in gold, and another king was giving something like 21,000 cows to each brahmana. Who could imagine? Now the only kind of cows anyone will give you is those that don't give milk.

Prabhupada: The cows were decorated with cloth, gold necklace and heaps of grains.

Tamala Krsna: The cow horns were sometimes with gold on the end.

Prabhupada: That means gold and silver and jewels and cloth, sumpt..., more than... Milk products, grains. This was richness.

Tamala Krsna: Now all there is is tin and plastic. Tin can. Food is in the tin cans, and you eat it off of plastic.

Prabhupada: And paper plate.

Upendra: Hmm. Paper plate.

Tamala Krsna: I always use the example that whenever a great personality in the Vedic time, when Krsna was there, whenever..., there was shower of flowers from the demigods. Now, when the astronauts went, they throw confetti.

Prabhupada: Where they went? All bogus.

Tamala Krsna: And they were rewarded by people throwing cut-up newspaper on their heads. That's considered a great... When someone gets this... It's called ticker-tape parade.

Prabhupada: Purposefully the Western money has been taken. What is the meaning of? People are so [indistinct].

Tamala Krsna: I think Jayadvaita has called their number in the Back to Godhead article: demons. Right out he calls them demons.

Prabhupada: Yes. We have to describe the demon very nicely.

Tamala Krsna: Actually you described them. He was just repeating what you have written in Bhagavad-gita. [sound of hammers banging]

Prabhupada: Where work is being...? In this building or the other building?

Tamala Krsna: That's what we were wondering. I think it's the guesthouse. That's not necessary [indistinct]. The guests also like to rest after lunchtime. Well, anyway, even though the times have changed, you have, by spreading this movement, at least in all of our temples, it is at least one hundred years behind the times-peaceful. Everyone marks that in our temples it is very peaceful. People like it. I know when I joined I went to the temple, and the thing I loved was that I felt it was very protective, that nothing could harm me when I was in the temple. [end]