770418R1.BOM

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Hmm. Thank you. [Transl. From where have you returned?]

Svarupa Damodara: I came yesterday from Manipur, er, from Calcutta, came day before yesterday. I stayed one night in Calcutta. The temple is nice. They have a smaller number of devotees in Calcutta now, but it's very conducive, very cooperative, so the atmosphere was very nice. I gave a lecture.

Prabhupada: That is all right. Small number is all right.

Tamala Krsna: Satadhanya Maharaja is the in-charge there.

Prabhupada: Simply congestion is no good. So you are going to Kartikeya's house?

Svarupa Damodara: Hmm?

Prabhupada: Kartikeya's house?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, today. They came yesterday. He's very learned, and he had a number of degrees.

Tamala Krsna: How many degrees did he have?

Svarupa Damodara: He said he had, honorary, about some fourteen, fifteen Ph.D. degrees.

Prabhupada: Ph.D. genuine?

Svarupa Damodara: Some are honorary, but he is from Oxford and Cambridge, very renowned scholar.

Madhava: He's a chemist.

Prabhupada: He's a chemist.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So he's very old. He's about seventy-three years old. And he had a genuine desire to be engaged in Krsna consciousness. So he'll be a devotee. So he invited us to come and speak to him today on... I'm going to speak on science and Krsna consciousness today.

Prabhupada: A good opportunity.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. And he expressed very frankly and very honestly... In fact, Giriraja was talking to [indistinct] yesterday, Giriraja and myself, and every moment, every word, every mood that he expressed was a genuine example of how this material world, we are suffering so much. He said that he had everything in life that he wanted to, in his material possession. He has all the qualifications, and he represented national and international levels, the different planning commissions, the chairman of so many organizations, but he said...

Prabhupada: What is his age?

Svarupa Damodara: He's seventy-three years old. He's very old, but still, he's very active, in good health. And he expressed that he's missing something. So we told that it is right time for to be in Krsna consciousness. And he comes to a point that he wanted to come and stay in the temple for a week just to learn more and try to get away from all the...

Prabhupada: So this is very nice. Bring him and give him a nice accommodation.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, he came here yesterday.

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah.

Tamala Krsna: But the lift wasn't working, so he couldn't come upstairs. That's why Kartikeya left early, because he was waiting downstairs.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarupa Damodara: Kartikeya brought him, actually. They live in the same house, apartment complex, downstairs, this man. And at one point he expressed that he had a great attachment for his wife, and his wife died about three years ago because of cancer. So since that time he said that he finds no peace, and he's looking...

Prabhupada: He has no children? He has no children?

Svarupa Damodara: We didn't talk about children...

Prabhupada: No, no...

Svarupa Damodara: ...but I should say he's alone. He said he lives alone.

Prabhupada: Let him come here. Organize all other scientists.

Svarupa Damodara: I'm going to request him to become a member of Bhaktivedanta Institute and put his name and degrees...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: That will be to look impressive.

Prabhupada: Yes. So he agreed or not?

Svarupa Damodara: I'm going to request him today. I made a little preaching in Manipur. I took a Fairchild, our movies, all the Hare Krsna movies, from Calcutta. I borrowed for a week.

Tamala Krsna: He took that little Fairchild projector.

Svarupa Damodara: Took the projector. And it has been raining so much, from Calcutta, Assam and Manipur, it's almost flooded for the last three weeks, almost continuous rain.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Svarupa Damodara: Looks like the rainy season has come, but very untimely, a little too early. But it has been almost flooded.

Prabhupada: It is cool now.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. But now the rain has subsided now. It's very cool. Calcutta was very pleasant. It's very comfortable. [laughs] And Manipur is especially nice because...

Prabhupada: It is good that so much rain has fallen.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, because there was some scarcity of water just a few weeks ago, but now it is plenty of water.

Prabhupada: This is due to Hare Krsna movement.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. I remember Prabhupada saying that if we chant Hare Krsna, rain will fall.

Prabhupada: Yajnad bhavati parjanyah [Bg 3.14].

Svarupa Damodara: And I also made about five devotees in Manipur. I was thinking of bringing in Bombay to get trained up so that I can take in south of Manipur.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Svarupa Damodara: But I decided not to take them at this time because I am coming back in September. And at that time I will bring. Before I gave them what to do and...

Prabhupada: They are coming or not?

Svarupa Damodara: In Bombay? Yeah, they will come.

Tamala Krsna: When will they come?

Svarupa Damodara: In September.

Prabhupada: No, no, why not earlier?

Svarupa Damodara: I didn't want to bring them earlier because...

Prabhupada: All right. That is all right.

Svarupa Damodara: ...I thought they needed some time to adjust. And these children, they all have graduates. They're all B.A.'s, and their parents approached me to take care of them at some time. Their members from their families were there, about four brothers. So they say they can spare one from their family. So I'm going to make an attempt when I come back and go all the villages in Manipur-it is small place, so I can go all of them-and I can take one, one from each family, and...

Prabhupada: Train him...

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...to become leader there.

Tamala Krsna: This was your program, to ask each family to give one of their sons.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: And Manipur is especially... Once I go to the family, and the family and the son, they agree, then I have..., we have some authority on them to say in the future if the boy is happening not to following properly... And it is better that way, to have the agreement from the parents also, so that where they are fully engaged for lifelong, not just coming for some time and...

Prabhupada: No. No.

Svarupa Damodara: ...go away. I don't want to produce like that.

Tamala Krsna: This is the opposite of the deprogramming problem in America. In America we have to take them forcibly from their...

Prabhupada: Not forcibly.

Tamala Krsna: Well, they are coming voluntarily, but, I mean, the parents are resisting. But here the parents are agreeing.

Svarupa Damodara: I found very interesting in the villages. I thought... I was planning to make programs very extensively in the week, but because of rain, it was...

Prabhupada: In Manipur also there is rain.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, rained so much. But anyway, the rain stopped in the last few days, so I made a few shows in the village. So they didn't even have electricity, so they hired this generator, and then I showed the white screen, and all the villages, nine villages, they came in no time. So I had about nine hundred, nine hundred in two shows. And they wanted to see more, the movies. And then they very appreciated. They wanted to join.

Prabhupada: So let them join.

Svarupa Damodara: And the Chief Minister, the Chief Minister, they heard that I have brought this machine from... So they came personally and wanted to see. Especially his wife. His wife came. The Chief Minister's wife came, and she heard that I have brought this machine, so they wanted to see the Hare Krsna movie. So I had to make two shows that night-one in the village, one in the Chief Minister's house. And a Life Member, he took special interest in showing these things. So I told him, "When I come back I'll bring one Fairchild from Manipur and all the movies, so that you can go..."

Prabhupada: Your Manipur is being intimately connected with our movement.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Svarupa Damodara: They liked it very much, especially... Everybody wants to see the devotees coming to Manipur, but the Home Ministry is giving us little difficulty in getting the permit. All the Manipuris, including the Chief Minister, they all want to have especially American devotees in Manipur. They want to see. But...

Prabhupada: If the Home Minister is changed now...

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. I was told that this Karan Singh is very favorable.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, he just gave us his house in Kashmir for using.

Svarupa Damodara: So then it will be a very good time for...

Prabhupada: He is not Home Minister.

Tamala Krsna: He's not the Home Minister.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, he's the Home Mi...? Oh. So we can...

Prabhupada: But we can influence him.

Svarupa Damodara: So in any case, I made a fresh application for September, and I'm going to request our Life Member in Manipur along with the Chief Minister and the members of Parliament to try their best so that we get a permit.

Tamala Krsna: How many people did you apply for?

Svarupa Damodara: Fifteen.

Tamala Krsna: Fifteen. For September. What part of the month?

Svarupa Damodara: Second week, around second week.

Prabhupada: Due to this rain, they'll have good food... [break]

Svarupa Damodara: ...very comfortable for traveling. It's very good for the crops. And I also have two offers of land in Manipur to build a temple, Hare Krsna temple, from two places. One is right in the middle of the town, and one is little away, about seventeen miles. And I'll show you the map, the place. It's..., one of them is sort of competitor. They wanted a temple built in one of these lands that they offered, so the two groups are...

Prabhupada: If people cooperate, we can have two temples. Kamam vavarsa parjanyah [SB 1.10.4].

Svarupa Damodara: Actually the land, the second land, it is on the hillside. From there you can see the whole of Manipur, because it is... The land is like this...

Prabhupada: Scenery.

Svarupa Damodara: Scenery's just beautiful. It's all on the foothills, and it's very charming, with the banyan trees and the monkeys, four classes of monkeys.

Prabhupada: They are receptive.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes. Very friendly. They're not like monkeys in... [laughs]

Tamala Krsna: Vrndavana.

Svarupa Damodara: These monkeys are very friendly. They wait until they are given. They don't just steal.

Tamala Krsna: In Vrndavana there are problems now.

Svarupa Damodara: They were so enthusiastic that they even gave me a blueprint of the map of Manipur to show Srila Prabhupada. This is the... Here is the capital, here, in the middle, Imphal. And the one is little smaller, in Imphal, in the capital. And it is also very close to the Govinda Temple that I was describing. And there is a murti of Hanuman that the people worship there in this... It's just like little forest. In the middle of this forest there is a small, little temple. There they worship Hanuman.

Prabhupada: Govindaji Temple?

Svarupa Damodara: Govindaji's temple is just in front.

Tamala Krsna: And it is right in the middle of the center, this place, this forest?

Svarupa Damodara: No, it's not in the middle. It's on the side, one of the sides of the... And there's a river, this Imphal River. It almost surrounds this little forest. And this forest is full of monkeys and so many birds, and they are very natural. It is about seven acres. It's not very big. Seven acres of land.

Prabhupada: Seven acres.

Tamala Krsna: Seven acres is a big plot.

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah. And other one is here. lt's called Vishnupur. Vishnupur is... There was a Visnu temple. It was constructed in fourteen hundred and..., about 502 years ago, a temple. The temple is still there. It was built by a king called Kyamba in Manipur by that time. And he worshiped this Visnu, and that place is called Vishnupur, that Visnu. And this is... Actually this is a nicer place. That is ten acres. But this is a little away from the town, but the congregation is very good here. Comes from all places, from Burma...

Prabhupada: How many miles?

Svarupa Damodara: How many miles from Imphal? Seventeen. One-seven.

Prabhupada: Not many miles.

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, it's not too far. And this land they are donating to us.

Prabhupada: They have donated?

Svarupa Damodara: They want to donate this to ISKCON to build a temple, ISKCON Hare Krsna temple.

Prabhupada: So if you can pick up one person from family, then we can do immediately.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually they have a committee, and this land actually is meant for... It is already called..., already reserved for temple purposes from the government of Manipur.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarupa Damodara: So they can actually... The committee... The members of the committee told me that this was within their power. So whatever they do is final. So that's...

Prabhupada: Maybe, but for management if we have to send foreigners, there are so many difficulties. But if the local people are trained up to our philosophy and mode of life, then there is no difficulty.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. And this place actually is the place where Govinda-nirpam[?]... At the time of this Govinda temple it was started from here initially, from this place. And the Govinda temple moved to Imphal later on. But the king started here. This is the beginning of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission to Manipur, started from here, this Vishnupur, and later on moved by the king to the capital. So it is some sort of a historical place for...

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarupa Damodara: ...where Caitanya Mahaprabhu's...

Prabhupada: Yes. So we are ready.

Svarupa Damodara: And here is also...

Prabhupada: When we go, we shall travel all these place...

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...and see what can be done.

Svarupa Damodara: So I also suggested that, that Srila Prabhupada visits the different sites.

Tamala Krsna: Who's in control of the other place?

Svarupa Damodara: The other place is a committee.

Tamala Krsna: They also want to give us the land?

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah.

Tamala Krsna: We could take both pieces.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Seems like there's so many devotees there that it wouldn't be difficult to...

Prabhupada: No.

Tamala Krsna: ...train up the local men as managers.

Svarupa Damodara: We have a big lake in Manipur. It is very big. And this is the biggest lake in Assam, in Manipur, and since it is surrounded by all hills, so when there is a lake it looks like a bowl, and you can see this lake just from this place. It is very near.

Prabhupada: Very nice water?

Svarupa Damodara: Very beautiful, and there are many plants, the water plants, flowers, lilies and... And there are, surrounding area, a lot of sprouts and many... We have these tamala trees on the hillside. It is hillside. And these big jackfruits trees, jackfruits, and pippalas, and...

Prabhupada: Jackfruit is very nice, both unripe and ripened. The...

Svarupa Damodara: It is full of jackfruits, this Vishnupur.

Prabhupada: ...jackfruit is very nutritious, very palatable, both ripe and unripe.

Tamala Krsna: Pineapple is also very nice.

Prabhupada: Pineapple also.

Svarupa Damodara: And we also have some candan trees.

Prabhupada: You can simply live on jackfruit. It is so nice. And mango must be there.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes, there are many mangoes.

Prabhupada: Very nice.

Tamala Krsna: Paradise.

Prabhupada: Season time, this mango and jackfruit is sufficient food. And little milk.

Svarupa Damodara: They also told me that there are also some sandon[?] trees, like sandalwood and some other sandal on the hillside.

Prabhupada: Sandalwood, no?

Svarupa Damodara: Here. But I didn't see it, that it actually grows there. And it is all these nice hills, beautiful scenery.

Tamala Krsna: How did you leave there?

Svarupa Damodara: [laughs] Very beautiful, natural scenery. And the climate is very mild.

Tamala Krsna: We have to wait until September. He's giving so many attractive points.

Prabhupada: No, gift we can accept very well. What is there? He can accept in behalf. So if they are eager to give, so make a committee, Gopala Krsna, yourself and some other Indian. You can take immediately.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Make a subcommittee, taking sensibly... Three, four men, subcommittee. We can have it.

Tamala Krsna: Your idea is to have them give it over before we go there?

Prabhupada: Why not? yaca dhana. If somebody is giving, take it. Then you develop.

Tamala Krsna: Can we write them like that?

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah. I can write to these men. And they have told me that they'll convey this message, and just see what...

Prabhupada: Immediately we can form three-, four-man committee-my name, your name, Gopala, and some other people. In this way develop.

Tamala Krsna: Svarupa Damodara's name.

Prabhupada: Svarupa Damodara, myself, Gopala...

Tamala Krsna: Three, that's all.

Prabhupada: So find out some more... When something is offered, take it. Then we shall see how to utilize it. yaca dhana kaca kapada. It is property, but it is being offered. Let us take it. You can pick up these boys from family.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Train them, and they will manage under our direction.

Svarupa Damodara: So next time, when I come back, I have a plan to go to all the villages with the slide show, or with the movies...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: ...and I'm going to request that...

Prabhupada: Each family...

Svarupa Damodara: ...to give one family, one member.

Prabhupada: That's it. Very nice.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually, they are very attracted to Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Yes. So let them be trained up and then go there and follow our instruction and develop. In the meantime you can take it. The Lord Clive, a crewman in the ship, he developed a British Empire in India, organization. He's an insignificant person; he established British Empire.

Tamala Krsna: Lord Clive.

Svarupa Damodara: From there we can also go to Burma.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Svarupa Damodara: 'Cause that's the neighbor. It's only about ten miles from Manipur. It's close to Mandalay. Used to be... The kings of Manipur used to invade this Burma, especially Mandalay, to fight. So we can go to Burma from there.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm. Dr. Sharma's card has this Hare Krishna Land as the address.

Svarupa Damodara: Is someone from here?

Prabhupada: Come on. Give him one seat there.

Dr. Sharma: No, I will be comfortable here.

Prabhupada: That's nice. He is Dr. Svarupa Damodara.

Dr. Sharma: I have met him.

Prabhupada: He has sacrificed everything for developing this Institution.

The birth of human life should be engaged in Krsna's service by life, by money, by intelligence, by words. Four, three-at least one.

So did you read that book?

Dr. Sharma: Yes, I did. The conversation of the Professor Kotovsky is very interesting. But I liked one particular aspect of it. For the West has been almost ridiculing the evils of praising the ordinary animal cow. For them it is ordinary; for us it is extraordinary. So there is a lot of difference in the [indistinct].

Prabhupada: They do not know the value of the animals.

Dr. Sharma: Yes. They do not know. The real principle behind the praying to a tree or going round the tree or praying to stones or praying to idol worship, it signifies how grateful we are to the nature that is going around created by God. Even to go around the tree, the tree which happens to give us the leaves, the shelter, the fruits, the roots, the bark of the tree-it has got so bulk of the nature created by God. So we are grateful to these things, and it shows how grateful we are to things, it shows a lot of gratitude we have. But that aspect of it is not being appreciated. Only faults are being taken in.

Prabhupada: They have not been educated. Therefore, actually speaking, there is no real knowledge outside India. Mudha.

Dr. Sharma: Even the smallpox vaccination that was discovered by Edward Jenner in 1786, it was only from the cow pox serum they discovered. The first vaccination he used on his own son. At that time no [indistinct]. People adhered to the Hinduism. People who were living with the cows, they were not affected by smallpox; though the people who did not have a cow in the house, they were affected the most. So it protects from cow pox, smallpox.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Cow protection protects us from so many infectious disease.

Dr. Sharma: Even the cows, they have habit to take the weeds along the banks of the river. The iodine content of the grass is so high. It has got iodine in that. So if we smear cow dung on the floor, it is said it is an obnoxious thing, whereas tincture of iodine is sold in the shops [indistinct]. I'm sure that it is sold very well. It is most unfortunate that we do not appreciate the nature itself is giving us aids.

Prabhupada: We take it seriously, because Krsna says. Krsna is our authority. He says, krsi-go-raksya. Go-raksya: [Bg 18.44]. "You must give protection to the cows." This is authority.

Dr. Sharma: When we talk about civil liberties and rights in democratic countries today, but we have a right to live on this planet. Why should we differate the right of another mind which cannot express itself?

Prabhupada: They are... They are... They are described in the Bhagavata, papinah. Those who are killing other animals for maintaining his own body, they are very, very sinful. Very, very sinful. Therefore untouchable. According to Vedic civilization, the animal-killers, mlecchas, they are untouchable. They are so sinful.

Dr. Sharma: They talk about killing other animals for wants of survival. Darwin's case has been brought in, put in, survival, struggle for existence. I mean to have a talk with Doctor yesterday. Even the key of the evolution theory by Darwin, he is not feeling itself. It has lots of blemishes.

Prabhupada: He has described in his book, Darwinism. What? What you have described?

Svarupa Damodara: It is... His knowledge is based on some simple speculation.

Prabhupada: Speculation. It is not sound knowledge.

Dr. Sharma: More than that he says that the giraffe has got a very lengthy neck because there was no grass on the floor. He had to reach the branches and boughs of a tree for the leaves. So he had a lengthy neck.

Prabhupada: So who made this arrangement?

Dr. Sharma: It was written by Darwin, the great man.

Prabhupada: No, that's all right, but next question will be, "Who made his neck so long? Why not your neck?"

Dr. Sharma: Then Darwin forgot there are millions of other herbivores living on the planet.

Prabhupada: He's a nonsense.

Dr. Sharma: They did not develop a big neck. Only giraffe developed, because Darwin wanted it.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Therefore he's a nonsense. He has...

Dr. Sharma: Darwin's universal theories that we all learn by heart, we are being obsessed by our own thing. We don't seem to observe the creed of life.

Prabhupada: Less intelligent. Therefore it is our duty to educate them, out of sympathy. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Pascimera loka saba mudha anacara : "The Western peoples, they are mudhas and anacaras." So this mission is paropakara, to give them knowledge and how to become civilized. This is the mission.

Svarupa Damodara: And men like Dr. Sharma can help us a lot.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: He is medical doctor, medical field. He can write some articles on especially these problems in biochemistry and the medicinal aspects. One can do a lot.

Prabhupada: You have seen his small booklet?

Dr. Sharma: I read it.

Prabhupada: Scientific Basis of...

Dr. Sharma: Yes. It's very interesting. I liked it.

Prabhupada: So if you translate some of these small books, we can publish.

Dr. Sharma: Knowledgewise, I am a big man. I am myself that mudha still. But still I am more than an ant. I'll do my mite.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is very good qualification, to remain humble and try to do something.

Dr. Sharma: And I'm making this statement because knowing the word modesty. I do not know what it is. I am a man full of ego, unfortunately.

Prabhupada: Trnad api sunicena... Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given this slogan, trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna, amanina manadena. One should not claim honor for himself, but he should give honor to everyone. Amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih .

[pause] So that book, small book, Easy Journey..., is it interesting?

Dr. Sharma: It is interesting. It has been very well written.

Prabhupada: Accha.

Dr. Sharma: It's a very well written book.

Prabhupada: Then that translation you have to...

Dr. Sharma: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: So encourage him to translate more books. [indistinct background conversation between devotee and Dr. Sharma] In Russia, if they allow us to speak, then we can convert many. There is no doubt about it. But they have restriction for outsider. Now, here is a scientific man. They'll not hear?

Dr. Sharma: Because this Vaisnava topic is very controversial to them.

Prabhupada: Controversial for them, not for the scientists.

Dr. Sharma: No, not but for them in the sense that the people who rule them. Because Hiranyakasipu was a despot. Naturally even the subjects have got to say Hiranyakasipu-namah and not Narayana-namah. So that is what he really insisted upon, even Prahlada, who refused to do so. So we are waiting for the day when that Prahlada will really come. Because they are all saying Hiranyakasipu-namah. That has got to be erased.

Svarupa Damodara: One of the greatest men in this "Life coming from matter" is in Russia. His name is Ivan Oparin, A. I. Oparin. He's in the Moscow Academy.

Dr. Sharma: He's a biologist.

Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, he's a biologist. He was one of the leading men who proposed this theory. He's getting old, but still, he's active. We wanted to send him all the things that we have written when it's finished.

Dr. Sharma: They may work on life and the gerontology, growing old. So they have published many papers on that. Oparin has got his own type of success in that. And the Politburo doesn't like him because he is not really obeying what the Politburo says. [pause] You have got anybody coming this evening?

Prabhupada: I don't think so.

Dr. Sharma: I thought professionalwise I would give you some help, what I know...

Prabhupada: Hmm. [end]