770203R1.BHU

Prabhupada: ...get India because the Japanese people, they were trying to expand. Two, three wars they tried, they could not. They wanted to take this advantage, Subhas Bose's cooperation. But their motive was different. And therefore they killed Subhas Bose. [break]

Svarupa Damodara: ...in Manipur. So they wanted to construct some sort of memorial building but, somehow, India government is not granting them. So instead of doing that, they were just collecting the bones. They found out some bones by some... [laughter]

Prabhupada: Bhutejya. This is called bhutejya.

Svarupa Damodara: And they carried those bones along with them. Just in the village where I lived many Japanese bones were found. And they were coming very frequently to collect the bones.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Gargamuni: When we were in Dvaraka they also showed us some shells.

Prabhupada: How these Japanese died in Manipur?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: How?

Svarupa Damodara: They came, I think, in the war.

Prabhupada: Oh, they attacked Manipur, and they were killed.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually the main Second World War was in Manipur towards the end.

Prabhupada: Yes. Towards the end. The Japanese were trying to enter India, and Subhas Bose was there.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, many people saw Subhas Bose.

Prabhupada: So Japanese planned that "Kill Subhas Bose, and let us enter." Subhas Bose wanted Japanese help to enter India. The Japanese took this opportunity, that "We shall enter India and kill Subhas Bose." That was their trick.

Bhagavata: So then they killed him. They killed him in that plane crash.

Prabhupada: Yes. The Japanese had no honesty. You see? They thought "This is the opportunity that this Indian leader wants our help. So with his help we enter India. And this is the opportunity to occupy India." Because they are searching after land. They are very poor in land. They have no place; very little land. Therefore they are now going to Hawaii to settle down. They have no place.

Bhagavata: How did Subhas Bose get from India to Germany?

Prabhupada: That is also political. He was, what is called, interned at home.

Bhagavata: By the British. Kept in his house.

Prabhupada: Hmm. So there was the minister, Nizamuddin I think, he helped him to go out. He was going for evening walk with police force and other. So it became accustomed. Police became lenient, in the meantime slipped. And in a dress of a kabuli, kabuli-wala, pathan, he crossed India. In this way he went out.

Bhagavata: I heard he took the dress of a Muslim?

Prabhupada: Yes, this is called... Yes. This is called pathan. So after going outside India, he organized this INA, Indian National Army. And Hitler helped him. Tojo also wanted to help him, but he had a plan.

Bhagavata: Different motive. So Hitler, he had no...

Prabhupada: No, Hitler actually helped him, all the soldiers. And then the Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers voluntarily surrendered to join INA. And this information obliged the Britishers to go away. Then "Now the army is joining national movement, so there is no hope." The Gandhi's noncooperation, the clerks' noncooperation, the..., some of these teachers' noncooperation, what do they care for? But when they saw that "The soldiers are now going to join this non..." Gandhi diagnosed the disease rightly, that "The Britishers are here on account of our cooperation. Without this cooperation, they'll go away." And that's a fact. So his noncooperation movement was... It was a good trick, but actually he did not succeed. And this movement succeeded, that "Now he's organizing Indian soldiers for national movement. There is no chance."

Gargamuni: That Mrs. Lalita Bose, she compared you to Netaji, that you went outside of India and organized an army, [laughter] then came back to India. She said that. She's the granddaughter? That Lalita Bose?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Niece.

Gargamuni: Niece. She said, "Your Guruji is just like Netaji. He went outside of India and organized army of Vaisnavas."

Prabhupada: Yes. Now it is in the right hand. You are resourceful, you Americans. You can do this. There is scientist. So we have got the framework very nice. Now you can push on. It is a good movement for the benefit of the whole world. Krsna will help you. Krsna will recognize you. Go on pushing rightly. Our only mission is para-upakara-we don't want to exploit anyone-Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. The people in general, human being, they have got this opportunity of being out of the clutches of maya, and they are kept in darkness. What is the use? Is that civilization? This is our mission. Here is opportunity for his getting out of the clutches of maya, daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya [Bg 7.14], and they are being misled, the so-called science and nasty philosophy and economic and making them, training them as demons and raksasas. What is this civilization? So our movement is against this demonic civilization. It is really para-upakara.

And this is India's mission, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission: para-upakara. So... And Krsna also confirms, ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati... [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasmad...You'll be recognized by Krsna. Simply go on sincerely working for this movement. Nobody can defeat you. Take all strategic point, fighting with maya, and become victorious. From any point of view, come on. We shall fight with maya. It is a great declaration of fight with maya. Not with maya; we are..., our fight is with the demons. Maya is servant, maidservant of Krsna. She can withdraw by the order. But she cannot withdraw, because people are demons. So this European opposition, American opposition is that the demons are now feeling the pressure. That is recognition, that "Now it is a fight. We have to defend."

Nanda-kumara: The outcome of the battle is already decided. Just like in Bhagavad-gita, we've already won. We just have to keep..., keep fighting.

Prabhupada: They are now feeling the pressure of the opposite party. So... Fight is fight. When there is fight, my Guru Maharaja used to say, "Some of our soldiers will die. It doesn't matter." You don't expect that not a single soldier of your party will not die. No, some of them will die. Still, fight must go on. Fight cannot be stopped. So fight like brave soldiers, Krsna will help you. Don't make any compromise. No truce with these demons. Fight must be. Our fighting weapon is Hare Krsna mantra. That's all. Saṅgopaṅgastra-parsadam [SB 11.5.32]. Astra. That astra is yajnaih saṅkirtana, this saṅkirtana, this astra weapon. They're now afraid of this astra more than atomic weapon. Is it not?

Gargamuni: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: [laughs] So...

Svarupa Damodara: Everybody knows. At least, everybody knows about Hare Krsna, about this saṅkirtana.

Prabhupada: No, it is more dangerous than the atomic weapon. They have accepted it.

Gargamuni: Yes. In many countries we are known to be very dangerous.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Gargamuni: In many countries we are known to be very dangerous, this Hare Krsna. They are afraid.

Svarupa Damodara: They even write, the psychiatrists, that "These people are very dangerous." [Prabhupada chuckles]

Bhagavata: We are threatening their sense gratification.

Prabhupada: Yes. So go on with fighting. We are not the Vrndavana babajis: "No, we are so perfect we do not go out of Vrndavana, and chant... Chant or not chant, we have got three dozen widows." This is going on. Sahajiya. Still they are better, because they have accepted Krsna as the Supreme Lord, than these demons. Our Guru Maharaja said that although we condemn these sahajiyas, but they are better than the Mayavadis because they accept Krsna as Supreme Lord. Their character is not good. But still, because they accept Krsna as the Supreme Lord somehow or other, they are better than these Mayavadis.

Bhagavata: Sahajiya.

Prabhupada: Sahajiya means they have taken everything very easy. That's all.

Bhagavata: Cheaply.

Gargamuni: Would you like to rest a little bit?

Prabhupada: No. Why rest?

Bhagavata: 9:20.

Gargamuni: 9:30.

Prabhupada: So we go at ten?

Hari-sauri: 10:15.

Prabhupada: 10:15, that's all.

Gargamuni: [to other devotees] See how you're going to pack?

Hari-sauri: Yes. [break]

Prabhupada: ...duty after all. Everyone is His son. Condemned maybe, but they must be supplied with food. [break] ...supplies food to the prisoners.

Hari-sauri: Hmm. [break]

Prabhupada: ...are kept as prisoners of maya. We want to fight and release them. Who has got such good mission?

Hari-sauri: No one even understands, actually, what the problem is.

Prabhupada: One does not understand-that does not mean the fact is not.

Hari-sauri: Yes. You said preaching is a thankless task.

Prabhupada: Just see Jesus Christ-crucified. What was his fault? He was crucified. Of course, he was not crucified.

Hari-sauri: No, but externally he...

Prabhupada: Nobody can crucify him. But the people are so thankless...

Hari-sauri: That they wanted to do that.

Prabhupada: Such a great personality, son of God. He wanted to deliver God consciousness. And return, he was crucified. We don't take Jesus Christ very insignificantly. We give him all honor. He's representative of God. He tried to preach according to the time, place, circumstances, country, people. Otherwise he is representative of God.

Hari-sauri: Yeah. Well, to say..., he only preached for three years, too.

Prabhupada: He could not preach even, but still, in three years what he did is wonderful.

Hari-sauri: Yes. He's world famous for the last two thousand years.

Prabhupada: Yes, not joke. Unless he's God representative, how he can be so famous? That we know. I told in Melbourne, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" And "He's our guru," I told. You remember that?

Hari-sauri: I don't... That was at one of those...

Prabhupada: The priest meeting.

Hari-sauri: Yes. I didn't attend that. I wasn't there.

Prabhupada: They asked me. And, "He's our guru." They very much appreciated. He is preaching God's consciousness, so he is our guru, spiritual master. That's a fact. Don't take him otherwise. He's guru.

Hari-sauri: It's just his nonsense followers.

Prabhupada: Gurusu nara-matih. Such person, great personality, why shall I think of him as ordinary human being? That is naraki-buddhi.

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Prabhupada: Anyone who is preaching God's glories, he is guru. So how can I decry him? He is guru. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. Unless one is guru, how he can preach about God?

Hari-sauri: Yes. Actually, we have a much better appreciation of Jesus than anyone...

Prabhupada: More, yes. Oh, yes.

Hari-sauri: ...because we actually understand the value of the guru.

Prabhupada: We are the greatest Christian. We follow his instruction; we accept him as guru.

Hari-sauri: Yeah. Without following the guru's instructions, there's no question of appreciating who he is or his work.

Prabhupada: And this word, "Jesus the Christ," it is not?

Hari-sauri: Well, originally they say it was "Jesus of the Christ."

Prabhupada: Meaning... Christ means...

Hari-sauri: God.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: So they... Originally it was "Jesus of the Christ," meaning he was son of God.

Prabhupada: Yes. That Christ is Krsna.

Hari-sauri: Yeah. Same word.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Krisht, Krisht. Christ means Krisht, Krisht. Krishta is vulgar expression of Krsna.

Hari-sauri: Yeah.

Prabhupada: No, from his teaching we can understand he is representative of God.

Hari-sauri: Oh, yes. He's... What he was teaching is exactly in accord with what we're doing.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: I was reading some of his instructions, what he was giving to his original disciples. And he gave them examples, that "The birds, they are not worrying about their food. God is supplying. So you should not worry for your food. You should simply go out and preach."

Prabhupada: He said like that?

Hari-sauri: Yes. He said, "So what should you worry if you go out and preach? Do you think that God will not give to you?"

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: "He is giving to the birds."

Prabhupada: Yes. That is our mission.

Hari-sauri: Yes. And he told them, "You should not worry for your food, for your clothing, for somewhere to stay. If you preach, then God will look after all those things."

Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact.

Hari-sauri: And he had them give up everything. They had a common pool. Anyone that came to join him, they would pool all their resources and share it among them. Anybody who was with nothing, he would get something. They would get food and clothing, like that.

Prabhupada: We are planning like that: "Come, take your food. Reside comfortably. Chant Hare Krsna."

Hari-sauri: Yes. We have no objection for...

Prabhupada: No.

Hari-sauri: ...feeding them. He was an actual Vaisnava...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Hari-sauri: ...teaching Vaisnava principles.

Prabhupada: If he has taken sometimes fish, there was no way... What can be done? Not for his sense gratification.

Hari-sauri: Even that's not certain, that he took fish, anyway.

Prabhupada: Sometimes it is said.

Hari-sauri: Well, it mentions that they distributed foodstuffs to a lot of people, fish and bread, 'cause that's all that was available.

Prabhupada: Yes. What can be done?

Hari-sauri: And because it wasn't always easy to get good water, there's a very cheap kind of wine. It's not actually very alcoholic. It's very, very cheap. Then they used to drink that because there was no good water.

Prabhupada: That is not plea that we shall drink bottle after bottle.

Hari-sauri: Yes. [laughs] Catholic priests, they have a big stock in their cabinets, so much wine.

Prabhupada: If they want to be reformed, we can reform them. On the basis of Bible, we can reform them. There is no difficulty.

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Prabhupada: Most of my disciples, they are coming from the Christian group. They can reform. Chanting is also recommended in the Bible, the glories of the Lord. I do not know why these rascals, Protestant... That means... The Protestant means last class. Why they should protest against Jesus law? Protestant means that. They protested. Is it not?

Hari-sauri: I'm not sure about... I don't know much about the history of Protestants.

Prabhupada: Yes. That King John, who started this Protestant movement? Some king in England.

Hari-sauri: Yes, it was started like that.

Prabhupada: Yes. He was forbidden not to divorce his wife.

Hari-sauri: No, that was Church of England, Henry the Eighth.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, Henry the Eighth. He started this Protestant.

Hari-sauri: He was excommunicated from the Catholic Church...

Prabhupada: But this...

Hari-sauri: ...so he started the Church of England.

Prabhupada: ...Protestant group was started by him.

Hari-sauri: I don't know anything about their history.

Prabhupada: That is the history.

Hari-sauri: There's always been fighting between the Protestants and the Catholics though.

Prabhupada: Well, fighting must be there. They protested.

Hari-sauri: There's so many Christian sects.

Prabhupada: There are many. Means they don't want anything genuine. Something imitation. What is the cause of fighting, this Ireland? Unnecessarily. It is going on in Europe since long time. In France it was very terrible fight. I have seen that church. They would bell, and they'll come and fight Protestant. You have been there? No. Concorde. It is... That place is called Concorde. So history there is a building, church. The Catholics would come and kill the Protestants. The Joan of Arc.

Hari-sauri: She was burnt.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: Europe has a big history of...

Prabhupada: Fighting.

Hari-sauri: ...religious fighting.

Prabhupada: Crusade. Crusade.

Hari-sauri: Yes. The Crusades were against the Arabs, though.

Prabhupada: That was a religious fight.

Hari-sauri: Yes. Christians against the Muhammadans. That article of Gurudasa's was very nice.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Hari-sauri: They asked him, "Do you think that another religion will help Ireland?" criticizing that "We've already got two religions, and they're fighting, and what do you think you're going to do?" So then he said, "Well, actually, it's another way of life, and Ireland could certainly use another way of life." It was a good point. We get a good reception there too, our devotees. People are very pious there, because Ireland is still very simple.

Prabhupada: Everywhere people are simple. That is my opinion. Mass people, they are simple. The leaders spoil them.

Hari-sauri: Yes. That's a fact. Most people are just... They're in ignorance.

Prabhupada: Yes. The human psychology is the same for man, woman. That's all. Amongst the lower animals you see. The pigeons, they are the same. The sparrow, they are the same everywhere. The squirrel, the same, the same. So why men should be different?

Hari-sauri: It's artificial, the differences they've created themselves...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...on national basis.

Prabhupada: In Russia I have seen. The people are the same.

Hari-sauri: Yes. Common mass of people are always...

Prabhupada: Simple. Hmm?

Hari-sauri: I think I'll see what's happening with the van.

Prabhupada: Hmm. [end]