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Prabhupada: ...brainwash.

Hari-sauri: But how can they take it that what we're doing is a bad thing? If we're training people how to avoid intoxication, how to avoid illicit sex, abortion, contraception...

Prabhupada: They say, "Why you should avoid? This is life. Why you are brainwashing?" One boy was there in the beginning... What was his name? Ranchor, his name, I gave him. So his father argued, "Why you are avoiding illicit sex? This is life! Why you are afraid? I'll give you car. I'll give you girls. You enjoy. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy?" His father was arguing. I think everyone's father argues like that. Lord Ronaldsay, he said, "Why you are prohibiting this thing? This is our life. It is impossible."

Hari-sauri: The thing is in society still, even now, there are people who abstain from it. There are vegetarians or...

Prabhupada: There may be very few, one or two. That is insignificant. One million, two person, he is. At least especially in your country.

Hari-sauri: The thing is that they don't claim that they are brainwashed. So we're a society where we're doing all these things, combinedly.

Prabhupada: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If the majority are fools and rascal, if you say something sane, then they'll ask... The man, the sane man, he is insane. He's crazy.

Hari-sauri: Hmm. Then how to fight them?

Prabhupada: That is the position. The only means is that in spite of all opposition you have to chant Hare Krsna. That will cleanse. Otherwise there is no other way. Argument and logic, they have no brain to understand. It requires this transcendental method, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12], by chanting Hare Krsna. That is wanted. You have to chant Hare Krsna and let them..., give the chance to hear. Then they will be able to catch it, what we are saying. Not directly. It is not possible.

Hari-sauri: Then how are we going to fare in this court case? 'Cause in these court cases it's a question of presenting one side against the...

Prabhupada: No, philosophy is there. Court case means there is philosophy, there is logic. So for that we have got so many books. We can... But general mass of people: chanting. When there is court case we are prepared to defend. We have got... We are not fools. We can talk that what is the aim of life. They cannot say anything. The transmigration of the soul, the aim of life which we are discussing in our book, that's fact. How he can deny the transmigration of the soul from one body to another? And if that is accepted, the whole problem is solved. He does not know what kind of life he is going to get. Therefore they do not accept this philosophy. If once accepted, then next question: "What kind of life we are going to get, either to become a tree or a dog or a human being?" What arrangement you have done that you will get next life human being? Then the pious and impious activities comes one after another. The basic principle they are denying: "After this body is finished, everything is finished." Bhasmi bhutasya dehasya kutah punar agama... [Sage Carvaka.] "The body will be burned into ashes, and where is life? Who is coming? Who is going?" They do not see the soul. Their medical science cannot find out where is soul. How do they say the... The soul means intelligence, they say. Otherwise, do they say the animal has no soul? Why do they say? What is the... What is... "Man has soul," they say. "The animal has no soul."

Jagadisa: That's what the Christians say. The Christians say.

Prabhupada: So what is the symptom?

Hari-sauri: Well, they... 'Cause he, man, has reason and logic.

Prabhupada: That means reason and logic is soul. That is their idea. That is not soul. Intelligence, when I say, "You have got intelligence," it does not mean you are intelligence. "You have got intelligence," we say like that. We never say, "You are intelligence." So intelligence is not soul. The rascals, they do not know. Mistake. Nobody says, "You are intelligence." They say, "You are intelligent."

Hari-sauri: Intelligence is something you possess.

Prabhupada: Yes. [someone enters] Hare Krsna. So? [break]

Hari-sauri: [looking in dictionary] "Brainwashing: clearing the mind of established ideas by persistent suggestion and indoctrination."

Prabhupada: That is... [chuckles] We are doing that. They are under the impression, "Work hard, earn money and enjoy life." We say, "No. Don't work hard for sense gratification but work hard for self-realization." Indoctrine.

Hari-sauri: Well, any form of education is indoctrination.

Prabhupada: Indoctrinization. Yes. Any kind of education is.

Hari-sauri: Whatever you teach someone, you teach according to whatever you see as the correct value.

Prabhupada: Yes. The child goes to the school. His brain is packed up: "I shall play all day." He likes that, to play, but it is indoctrinization that "No, you should read. You must become graduate."

Hari-sauri: Yes. And whatever country he's born in, he has to learn the culture of that country; he's indoctrinated.

Prabhupada: Apart from that, education is required. The child wants to play, but we have to educate him that "No, play is not all. You have to be educated." Similarly, this animal life-eating, sleeping, mating-this is already there. No. We say, "Not only this, you have to realize God." This kind of brainwash is required. If we do not understand God, then what is the difference between you and dog? He knows how to eat, how to sleep. He doesn't require any high education how to eat. Everyone knows how to eat, how to use sex. Nobody requires any university education.

Hari-sauri: Simply ignorance.

Prabhupada: When the animal enjoy sex, they know which part of the body has to be used.

Hari-sauri: They don't have to be taught.

Prabhupada: There is no need of education. He knows it. And these rascals, they are presenting Freud's philosophy, sex. Just see how they are wasting time.

Hari-sauri: They have so many books now on so-called sex education, so many of them.

Prabhupada: Simply wasting time. There is a story about this. One man was canvassing, hawking. Hawker?

Hari-sauri: Yes, hawker.

Prabhupada: So he was, "Here is a book of cow protection," cow protection. He has written one book to take care of the cows. So when old man called him, "What you are selling?" Now, "I am selling this book." "What is that book?" "Maintaining the cow." So, "Why you are selling? First of all you give this book to your mother, because you are no better than cow, so she will learn how to give you protection." That means he wanted to impress upon him that "Cow protection doesn't require any education. You have written a book? So you are such a rascal, cow intelligence. Better give this book to your mother. She will maintain you. Don't sell it. Everyone knows how to give cow protection." So similarly, this sex literature, there is no need of sex literature. Sex literature is there in Sanskrit also. That is how to restrict sex. For what purpose one should indulge in sex, that is called Kama-sastra. I have seen this Freud philosophy became so prominent that sometimes in the year..., 1940s maybe, so one young woman was traveling, and another young man was traveling. So they began to discuss about sex very openly. And both of them unknown. Still, they engaged themselves in discussing the sex literature, without any shame.

Hari-sauri: Pseudo-intellectuals. Shameless.

Prabhupada: Yes. Young boy, young girl, they began to discuss on sex openly as scientific.

Hari-sauri: What is this scientific? [laughs]

Prabhupada: Scientific means after discussing for some time you propose that "Let us enjoy sex." That's all. It is common thing in your country-unknown girl, unknown boy, and talk for some time, "Let us go to some restaurant," and then talk more intimately, and then sex.

Hari-sauri: That's the whole social system.

Prabhupada: "Would you like to sex?" And who is the young man, young... Who'll deny it? I know this. During ball dance they embrace one another, another's wife, another's husband, and in ball dance... Or there are side rooms. Naturally they'll feel sex, and they go to the side room and discuss. Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Hari-sauri: The only reason they go to a dance is to pick up some woman for sex life. That's all.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: Most of my friends used to go out specifically to find some woman to have sex.

Prabhupada: This dancing club means this.

[long pause] [end]