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Prabhupada: Krsna's bhakti-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus.

Harikesa: Krsna consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Harikesa: It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations.

Prabhupada: Everything.

Harikesa: All kinds of economic systems.

Prabhupada: Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]: "There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Krsna? That's all. You present Krsna right, then Krsna will exceed everything-any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, parataram. Para-taram. Tara is used-superlative. If our men become serious to distribute... Of course, it is not possible that the whole world will be Krsna conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know: there is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money, he can purchase it.

[break] Because gentleman will come you have to break this wall. What is this nonsense?

Aksayananda: Yes, actually I didn't want it broken.

Prabhupada: You didn't know, but it is going on.

Aksayananda: Now I have to finish.

Prabhupada: Any rascal comes, he gives some order. This is the difficulty.

Aksayananda: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Any rascal comes, he's a third-class man, he gives some idea.

Aksayananda: I'm going to get this work finished today, definitely.

Prabhupada: He has no position; he is third-class man. He has given some idea: "Here, you break it." That is the nature. And how long this work will continue? Throughout the whole life?

Aksayananda: No. I'm going to finish it today.

Prabhupada: You say no, but it is going on. You simply say "No," "Yes," "No," "Very good." That's all.

Aksayananda: When I go away and I come back and the wall is broken, what can I do?

Prabhupada: Don't go.

Aksayananda: That's right.

Prabhupada: You don't manufacture idea. Don't allow others to manufacture ideas.

Aksayananda: Right, right.

Prabhupada: Simply manufacturing idea.

Aksayananda: I understand.

Prabhupada: In Bombay also they have manufactured idea. One hole, one lift. There is no need, and you have manufactured some idea. Very expert in manufacturing nonsense ideas.

Hari-sauri: The thing is how to distinguish between what's a good idea...

Prabhupada: You have to take ideas from your guru.

Aksayananda: From inteligence.

Prabhupada: Therefore gurum evabhigacchet. Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authorities, then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving: gow-gow-gow-gow-gow-gow. [makes machine sound]. [laughter] And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it.

Aksayananda: Prabhupada, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes? How to wash the cloth? If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash the cloth? By beating only? Sufficient?

Prabhupada: For washing cloth you require soap. But does not... You require everything, but because you are spending without any sense... So I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity puja, will require five hundred rupees per month.

Aksayananda: I had requested for the flowers... Visvambhara said twelve rupees you had decided last night.

Prabhupada: Twelve rupees, thirteen rupees...

Aksayananda: Twelve, thirteen. Actually today, I wanted for today, but the flower man was not able to... We could not catch him in time. But from tomorrow it will start, definitely.

Prabhupada: The thing is that one who is cheating you, he will cheat in twelve rupees, also he will cheat in fifty rupees.

Aksayananda: Yes, I know.

Prabhupada: He knows how to cheat you.

Aksayananda: Yes, they're expert.

Prabhupada: Where do they get flowers?

Aksayananda: There are two flower men. They come here from Bankebehari. Now Visvambhara has made two, because they make a competition between each other, and therefore they keep down. But...

Prabhupada: Nobody is honest.

Aksayananda: But still old flowers are coming. Still old flowers are coming. We're getting cheap, but old ones are coming. Brown flowers, old ones are coming. It's just by experience, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Where they get flower?

Aksayananda: Wherefrom? The actual flower men? I don't know.

Prabhupada: In the market the flowers are not sold?

Aksayananda: I don't know. Visvambhara said that this was the best. Visvambhara is very expert. He's supremely expert at catching these cheaters. But even he gets cheated sometimes. Even things go by and he doesn't notice. He's very, very expert. If I ever get to be as expert as him, then maybe something good will happen. But even he is also being cheated sometimes.

Prabhupada: Cheating is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul.

Aksayananda: Prabhupada, Visvambhara...

Prabhupada: Vipralipsa, vipralipsa. Bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, karanapatava. So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating, more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think, "How I can cheat you? How can I cheat you?" That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer.

Hari-sauri: Yes, because their business is to avoid the law.

Aksayananda: They are called lawyer, but their business is to break the law.

Prabhupada: Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer.

Aksayananda: So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated, because we ourselves will not cheat anymore.

Prabhupada: No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Sathe sathyam samacaret. You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist.

Aksayananda: But we have to cheat for Krsna.

Prabhupada: Do everything for Krsna, that is all right. But this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer.

Aksayananda: You lose always.

Prabhupada: Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vancaka-vancita. Whole world is going on, my Guru Maharaja used to say, that one is cheater, another is cheated.

Hari-sauri: There's a saying in English... What is it? "Set a thief to catch a thief." The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing.

Prabhupada: Set a fish?

Hari-sauri: Set a thief to catch a thief.

Prabhupada: Thief, oh, yes. You can reply him... [break] Those who are actually serious to advance in Krsna consciousness, they are welcome.

Aksayananda: Papi-tapi jata chilo.

Prabhupada: Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to..., you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Abala-vrddha-vanita. Bala means children, vrddha means old man, and vanita means woman. They are most helpless. Abala-vrddha-vanita. Vanita. Beginning from the child up to the old man, and... But coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasadam and place. But be advanced. And the simple method is recommended,

Very simple thing. Yasyam vai sruyamanayam. Simply hear Bhagavatam. And actually if anyone seriously reads Bhagavatam, he'll become saintly, no doubt about it.

Aksayananda: Your Bhagavata. There are no others actually.

Prabhupada: Vyasadeva, the words of Vyasadeva, I am simply trying to explain, that's all.

Aksayananda: No one else is trying. No one else has done it.

Prabhupada: It is due to the blessing of my Guru Maharaja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither..., even they... They know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Maharaja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhagavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that "If it was possible to get the marbles from this Gaudiya Matha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place." [break] ...books.

Aksayananda: Yeah, I know.

Prabhupada: And by Krsna's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Krsna's grace. Otherwise... This Bon Maharaja is so proud of his institution. He could not do this. He could have done it. For the last forty years.

Aksayananda: He does not speak krsna-katha, Prabhupada. So five thousand you have estimated for the Deities? Five thousand. For a month you have estimated last night five thousand?

Prabhupada: Five hundred.

Aksayananda: Five hundred. For all...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: For a month?

Aksayananda: With Visvambhara you had discussed?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Aksayananda: Then I'll talk to him now.

Prabhupada: Just like we were going to, in the evening... Don't divert attention. In the evening we have estimated four plates. Each plate, eight puris.

Aksayananda: Six plates.

Prabhupada: Six plates. Six plates, eight puris, means forty-eight puris. Forty-eight puris, Visvambhara calculated the atta and ghee.

Aksayananda: Yes, you already made that estimate.

Prabhupada: Two rupees. Atta and ghee, two rupees. Then other preparation, another two rupees.

Aksayananda: He'll tell me everything, Prabhupada. No need to...

Prabhupada: No, no, why don't you hear?

Aksayananda: I'm sorry.

Prabhupada: You are hearing now. Four rupees to prepare all the plates. Four rupees, say five rupees. So five rupees, monthly 150 rupees. So we are offering four times. So 150 rupees four times.

Gopala Krsna: Six hundred rupees.

Prabhupada: Six hundred rupees. So take another four hundred rupees, make one thousand. It should not go more than five hundred to one thousand. You spend it.

Harikesa: But milk, when you cook down milk to make a sweet...

Prabhupada: I have taken from six hundred to one thousand. All the maintenance.

Aksayananda: I will take every item with Visvambhara, every single item.

Prabhupada: You don't believe me?

Aksayananda: I can't understand. My intelligence is not great enough to understand it. I believe you, but I have to do it, that's all.

Prabhupada: It cannot go more than one thousand.

Aksayananda: I can't quite grasp it, Prabhupada. But you say it can't go above five hundred, so that'll be it.

Prabhupada: No, no. Five hundred, that is rough calculation. But we add another five hundred, if there is any mistake or any error and omission. Therefore I have added another five hundred.

Aksayananda: That means a thousand.

Prabhupada: Thousand. That is sufficient.

Aksayananda: Maximum.

Prabhupada: Maximum. And you were speaking 9,000.

Aksayananda: This is for food. Food only.

Gopala Krsna: It is for Deity messing.

Aksayananda: Deity food only. Yes.

Prabhupada: So I am speaking of the Deity, not for all. For all others, hundred rupees per head, five thousand rupees. Here puri, kachoris, and other things, all the best things. But general is not for puri, kachori, and... They are general food. We are not going to supply puri, kachori, halava to everyone.

Aksayananda: No, never. Never have.

Prabhupada: Only for the Deity.

Gopala Krsna: Others are just dal, sabji, rice, chapati.

Prabhupada: Everything. Everything calculated.

Aksayananda: I believe you, Prabhupada. But to make it practical I want to see every item. The cost, the weight and everything.

Prabhupada: It is already calculated.

Aksayananda: Then I can do it. Then we can do it.

Prabhupada: It is already calculated. I calculated, not with a fool, with an experienced person.

Gopala Krsna: I have one other question regarding... We are going to observe very strict policies. Unless somebody is working, he cannot stay in the temple. If some other tourist devotee comes from some other center, he can only stay for three days. But beyond that he should either pay or he should go and preach or do something else.

Aksayananda: Like some service.

Gopala Krsna: What should we do with..., like there's some sannyasis here, like Yasodanandana Swami and his party. I hear they're going to stay for the whole month. They're already here since two weeks. They're occupying two rooms, everything. They're going to stay here till the end of the month.

Aksayananda: Get him to go and preach for Vrndavana.

Gopala Krsna: The only reason I'm talking this is because now it's really tight. We can't take... They have air-conditioned room...

Prabhupada: Yes, they should go and preach and bring some collection.

Gopala Krsna: They're just relaxed, resting for a month.

Aksayananda: A month is too long, Prabhupada said. Prabhupada said three days a sannyasi should stay, and then he should go and travel. The wheels should be turning. I'll talk to him.

Gopala Krsna: Because this just adds up. A ten-people party staying here for a month...

Prabhupada: Yes, they've always come, so there must be some control.

Gopala Krsna: Few men are here from Hamsaduta's party who eat with us. All this just adds up, then our budget cannot be maintained.

Aksayananda: I'll preach to him.

Gopala Krsna: Air-conditioned room.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. They're our men.

Harikesa: Yes. It's required. If anyone's ever done a big preaching program, he cannot [indistinct].

Prabhupada: But one month...

Aksayananda: A month is a long time. Maybe a week. But a month...

Prabhupada: Yes. Week is sufficient. One month is too much. That is laziness.

Aksayananda: Residential. Laziness.

Prabhupada: So he was preaching in the South India, so why he came here? There was no resting place?

Harikesa: He came here... Actually, they're going north soon. They're going to be in Chandigarh when we're in Chandigarh.

Gopala Krsna: That is six weeks from now.

Harikesa: That's all right. They're also going north and preaching, and he's having a very hard time getting his financial position down. And he has no men. Two, three, four men. He's having...

Prabhupada: How he'll return my fifteen thousand?

Gopala Krsna: That Mahamsa has taken.

Prabhupada: I do not know Mahamsa has taken. He has to return it.

Harikesa: He never got it. And he wanted to join with Hamsaduta, do some type of [indistinct]. He's not in a very easy position right now.

Gopala Krsna: He could become a part of Vrndavana and take a team out of Vrndavana.

Aksayananda: I always wanted Vrndavana should have one bus. That is to say, if there is not too much endeavor to get one bus. There's so many buses are floating are through the air. Why could Vrndavana not have one bus? In that way they can always be just like Kirtanananda Swami. There is always saṅkirtana going and coming, going and coming. And the same people...

Prabhupada: Ananda Swami?

Aksayananda: Kirtanananda, in New Vrindavan. All his people, they must go out and do kirtana and distribute books. They must. Everybody does it. In that way the... I'm told this, anyway. In that way the devotees are enlivened, and they don't become restless in the temple. Then the same ones... It's our bus, and they will come back to our temple. So we will not lose too many good devotees because they will not be attracted to go away on others'. So if we had one bus... Yasodanandana Maharaja, I will discuss with him. I already have. I'll just try to discuss it more.

Gopala Krsna: Gurudasa Swami is coming to Vrndavana with a bus. He said he's going to give it to Vrndavana.

Aksayananda: And there's no need for me to go out. There's so many nice sannyasis. So many big preachers and so many buses. So if we just try it.

Gopala Krsna: Isvara-candra prabhu has come from Mathura. [break]

Prabhupada: When you will come to preach something? You take it from me.

Isvara-candra: Last one and a half year I'm trying for something in Mathura, but I'm...

Prabhupada: You are trying in your own way. But Krsna does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Krsna will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Krsna does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Krsna consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well, that outside Krsna consciousness the whole world was vacant: "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So [Transl. forget that nothing and] come to something, if you want. That's Pranava, he is trying for something. He has come also in Vrndavana more than one year also. Huh?

Gopala Krsna: Two, three years.

Harikesa: More than that. Three and a half years.

Prabhupada: Two, three years. And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surma [kohl] merchant. As if surma is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vrndavana? Thinking "The fools and rascals, the Americans are. I shall introduce." [Transl. Am I right or wrong? This is going on. Simply to cheat the Americans by this and that.] That this material world has become nothing. You come to something now. [Transl. You come and live here. We will give you a room. And whatever the Lord's Prasada--dal, roti, eat it and render some service. Why are you running after nothing? What is the use? That will end up in nothing only.] If anyone wants to go to Bhagavan, then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niskincanasya. Niskincana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niskincana. Kincana means "something," and nih means "not." Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg 18.54].

Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat [SB 7.5.5]. Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat. [Transl. You are translating. asat. What is the meaning of asat?]

Isvara-candra: Temporary

Prabhupada: Temporary or useless. So this material world is... Temporary, we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go. Let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is maya. [Transl. Just like they show some grass to an ass.] You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gadha, ass, he's putting some grass. And the gadha is thinking, "I will eat this grass," so he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say, one feet above his head, and the man is sitting on his back. But because this gadha does not know that "Actually, this man is sitting on my... As soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage. Myrage? There is no water.

Harikesa: Mirage.

Prabhupada: Mirage. There is no water; it appears there is water. And the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niskincana. Niskincanasya bhagavata-bhajana... This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's instruction. Bhagavata-bhajana means niskincana. You make nothing this material world. That is real Krsna consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it... Just like Draupadi. Draupadi, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karna wanted to make her naked... So generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself, and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and... So cloth is being supplied by Krsna, but how long I shall?" No, before Krsna helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then [s]he did not try to save the cloth. [S]he said, "Krsna, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Krsna supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duhsasana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply."

So this is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad-bhajana, he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, "I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vrndavana. Again, Krsna, you have given so many things. What is the purpose?" At that time, I remember Rupa Gosvami's instruction: "This is not mine. This is Krsna's." Nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagya [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.255].

We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably," then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Krsna, it is Krsna's; I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something," [laughs] take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Krsna's service. Not that "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it.

Rupa Gosvami. Hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Things which are connected with Krsna, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. [Transl. So if you understand what I say then give up this nothing. Let the nothing remain nothing. "Ara nare bapa." [Caitanya-bhagavata Madhya-khanda 13.225] Just like Jagai-Madhai gave up.] Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked him that "You make this nothing, this sinful activity. Then I accept you." They promised, "Yes." That's all. [Transl. We give up.] Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyah [Bg 18.66]." [Trans_What is your ambition in life?] What is your ambition? Hmm? What is the ambition?

Isvara-candra: Nothing is there.

Prabhupada: Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that nothing? There must be some ambition.

Isvara-candra: I want to take care of my family what they need and what they...

Prabhupada: Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company? There must be some ambition.

Isvara-candra: I want to take care of my family what [indistinct].

Prabhupada: So how you can take care with nothing? If Krsna makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Balasya neha saranam pitarau nartasya ca... [SB 7.9.19]. These things I have explained, that we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tavat tanu-bhrtam tvad-upeksitanam. If there is no sanction from Krsna, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Krsna does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that "I shall take care of my family." But if Krsna wants that you cannot take care of your family, then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Krsna? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Krsna. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Krsna. Take it from me. [Transl. How many children do you have?]

Isvara-candra: I have four.

Prabhupada: Four. [Transl. These children can come here and whatever food they are getting we can supply them. What is there?] Separate. No more together. [Transl. Otherwise you will have fifth child. You stop this. Nowadays the government also prohibits.]

Isvara-candra: What can I do? [laughs]

Prabhupada: Trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah [SB 7.9.45]. Everything is discussed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Krpana, brahmana, krpana, trpyanti neha. He knows that "One bacca: child has given me so much trouble." Illicit or legal, [Transl. whatever it is.] it is troublesome business. Otherwise, why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child? They don't want to take the botheration. [Transl. So far it has not started in India yet. But gradually it will start. Now it is started by force.] So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhagavata says, trpyanti neha krpanah. [Transl. One who is krpana…] The krpana [Transl. means...] What is the meaning of krpana? Do you know?

Isvara-candra: Miser.

Prabhupada: Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser?

Isvara-candra: He's got something but he doesn't want to share with others.

Prabhupada: Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Krsna consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore sastra says, trpyanti neha krpanah [SB 7.9.45]. Because he's krpana, he's never satisfied. He's suffering-again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? So krpana. Krpana, he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Krpana. One has to become brahmana. The opposite word of krpana is brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg 18.54].

That is wanted. So we are giving brahmana's position. Instead of taking the brahmana position, if he wants to take again krpana position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brahmanas. Brahmana. Sukadeva Gosvami is always addressed Brahman. Is it not? This is brahmana's business. It is not the krpana's business. Krpana's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset.

So [Transl. Since you have come] it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like... Give him prasadam. [break] ...these words, trpyanti neha krpana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. They have been described, it is just like... Of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still... So it is like itching. Nothing more. Kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham [SB 7.9.45]. The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya. Tapasa brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13].

Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacari. That is tapasya. Tapasya means brahmacari. Tapasa brahmacaryena samena damena, tyagena, satya-saucabhyam yamena niyamena. This is tapasya. It is very strong power, this... Therefore Bhagavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam [SB 5.5.1].

This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nation, and what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs: go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi..., big hog.

Aksayananda: It's terrible.

Prabhupada: So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all, he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nation? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise...

Aksayananda: Yes. I was just thinking about that.

Prabhupada: No, no. If we advise, make a brahmacari-asrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacari?"

Aksayananda: Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it?

Prabhupada: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can, everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacaris?

Aksayananda: Otherwise how we could...

Prabhupada: Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacaris. Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat-eating and... But you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacari...," they'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method. And naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. "Now you convert your..., you divert your attention to Krsna." They'll make propaganda, "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacari. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment?

Aksayananda: Finished.

Prabhupada: It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sari, nice face powder, nice this, nice that-one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally..., her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice? Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen-years-old boy, he does not... He is roughly dressed, he does not... But a sixteen-year-old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that "She is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me-it is my duty, I am guardian-give her some good shelter." This is Hindu process.

Aksayananda: Perfectly natural.

Prabhupada: Very natural.

Aksayananda: But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural.

Prabhupada: They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well-wisher of the children. Yes. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Krsna consciousness, everything will be adjusted.

Aksayananda: By sterilization, Prabhupada... When they perform some operation, that will also spoil their intelligence.

Prabhupada: Everything is spoiled.

Aksayananda: Because if the, as I have read, if the semina can go to the brain then there can be some intelligence, if even a little could go. Is it by sterilization no more can go to the brain, I think. So they have become bail [oxen]. They've become like the bail.

Prabhupada: Nowadays boys are dull. Why dull?

Aksayananda: So dull in India.

Prabhupada: Everywhere. Because they discharge semina like anything. Must be dull.

Aksayananda: Yeah. And then by...

Prabhupada: Ūrdhvareta. There is a word, urdhvareta. Reta means semina. One who has learned how to divert the movement of the semina to the brain, urdhvareta, greatest yogi. By yogic power they can do that. Instead of discharging, going down.

Aksayananda: So if they become sterilized, then there's no more possible for the semina to go up. Never again.

Prabhupada: No. Semina will not be produced.

Aksayananda: It cannot..., therefore it cannot go, nothing can go to the brain. Therefore their brain is finished for life. It is the same...

Prabhupada: Anything you do artificially...

Aksayananda: It is just like making an operation on the brain. Sterilization is therefore the same...

Prabhupada: The Kali-yuga is... The material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the... Just like this babaji has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sadhus and babajis, they are using their sex.

Aksayananda: Babaji has been...?

Prabhupada: They are now being, forcibly being taken.

Aksayananda: Sterilized.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Aksayananda: Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex.

Prabhupada: It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals.

Aksayananda: Oh, I know.

Prabhupada: The hospital men, they do not take it serious: "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life.

Aksayananda: By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our member. He said, "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations, to perform in this day; otherwise I won't get paid."

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Aksayananda: "I have to make so many people sterilization. Otherwise, I will not get paid. I will not be able to live now, because I must perform so many." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform, by law.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Aksayananda: Terrible. I often think it's like the bail. The bail, they have, with the bail gadi, and they cut. And the bail has no brain. He does anything you want.

Devotee: What's a bail?

Aksayananda: The oxen. And similarly the people now... [break] There must be a war very soon. It seems that there must be war very soon. War may happen very soon.

Prabhupada: There will be reaction.

Aksayananda: Such a transgression of the laws, it cannot... How much further can it go, Prabhupada? There must be a war very soon. Any day.

Prabhupada: Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners.

Aksayananda: Ask us for sterilization.

Hari-sauri: They can't sterilize us.

Aksayananda: Well, nobody's asked us yet.

Prabhupada: No, legally can they?

Aksayananda: By law, if you have three children.

Hari-sauri: If you become Indian citizen, then.

Aksayananda: If you have three children in your family, then by law you must have it.

Prabhupada: So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children."

Aksayananda: Yes, right. That's what I thought.

Prabhupada: This argument. "First of all finish my..."

Aksayananda: I had two when I was married.

Prabhupada: That is now...

Aksayananda: But they are not here. They're not in the country.

Prabhupada: So, "We are sannyasis. We have no children. So why you are coming to us?"

Aksayananda: They've never come, fortunately.

Hari-sauri: They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens.

Prabhupada: Foreigners...

Aksayananda: So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national, then they will approach me?

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughter]

Aksayananda: That can never happen.

Harikesa: I just heard that seventy thousand women and thirty-six thousand men.

Aksayananda: Nasbandi, they call it. Nasbandi.

Hari-sauri: That was just in one state.

Harikesa: In Delhi or U.P. or something.

Prabhupada: Nas means veins.

Aksayananda: Means?

Prabhupada: Veins, these, veins.

Aksayananda: Veins! I didn't know that. Bandi means stop it. Stop the vein so the semina will not go. Terrible.

Harikesa: You're sure about that?

Aksayananda: Yes.

Hari-sauri: They told you that's what they're doing. Stops you producing... They cut the tube that produces semina.

Aksayananda: I don't know where they do it. Some part of the body.

Hari-sauri: It's somewhere near the testes. They cut the tube. It takes ten minutes. And it stops you producing any more semina.

Aksayananda: It's so bad. They give people... [break] ...and eating so much nonsense. So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully.

Prabhupada: No, just like I was speaking from Bhagavatam.

Aksayananda: Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also.

Prabhupada: If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the book, it is already tactful.

Aksayananda: Jaya. But if we add something...

Now they are in a position of soka-moha-bhaya. So you take to Krsna consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into soka-moha-bhaya. It is already there going on, soka-moha-bhaya. But it is now special time for soka-moha-bhaya. So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya, they may take to Krsna consciousness.

Aksayananda: Still, they have to just take, that's all.

Prabhupada: Yes. Catur-vidha bhajante mam janah sukrtino 'rjuna arto [Bg 7.16]. Arto. Artah means who is afraid of. So this is the position of arta, soka-moha-bhaya. Take to Krsna consciousness. But that he can take, provided he is sukrtina-if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Krsna he becomes sukrtina.

Aksayananda: I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear.

Prabhupada: Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom.

Aksayananda: Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide.

Prabhupada: Suicide? Oh.

Aksayananda: So many, I know, I have spoken with them. And myself included. So many devotees, before...

Prabhupada: Yes, there was no hope. What is the use?

Aksayananda: Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide.

Prabhupada: Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the...

Hari-sauri: Skyscraper.

Prabhupada: Yes. Tower.

Aksayananda: Some have done.

Prabhupada: From the bridge.

Hari-sauri: They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off.

Prabhupada: Yes, I have seen.

Harikesa: Berkeley.

Prabhupada: Berkeley, yes.

Hari-sauri: Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can...

Prabhupada: This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system, [indistinct], fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan[?] it is called.

Aksayananda: So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection is that this Vinobha, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies, then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct? And if he's a brahmana, he is guilty of brahma-hatya. So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows.

Prabhupada: You are right.

Aksayananda: And what is the gain?

Prabhupada: And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness.

Aksayananda: He will die, and it will go on.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is his foolishness.

Aksayananda: And he does not know where he will go next.

Prabhupada: Just see, he is supposed to be very big man, and he's such a rascal. He has no sense what he is doing.

Aksayananda: Plainly you have described in the Gita. You have described plainly in the Gita. No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know.

Prabhupada: No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this-ananda, they simply... Ananda-there is no ananda. All nirananda.

Aksayananda: What?

Prabhupada: Cinmayananda, he is supposed to be very big sannyasi. What he has done?

Aksayananda: What has he done? He advertised in the paper for young boys.

Prabhupada: There is one gentleman, Sadajiwatlal in Bombay. You know him?

Aksayananda: Sadaji Mahatma?

Prabhupada: Sadajiwatlal.

Aksayananda: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: Zhandu proprietor.

Aksayananda: I know about him. I know of him.

Prabhupada: He... He is very intelligent. He has said to a friend that Bhaktivedanta Swami saba ka mukha kala kara diya. Kala means that he has made all other so-called sannyasis, yogis, black-faced.

Aksayananda: [laughs] Jaya. He is intelligent.

Prabhupada: Bhaktivedanta Swami saba ka mukha kala kara diya.

Aksayananda: It's true. It's true.

Prabhupada: Now here is a big sannyasi, Akhandananda, or Bon Maharaja. They are supposed to be big, big sannyasi.

Aksayananda: I do not know what Akhandanandan does.

Prabhupada: Anyway, Who knows it? And this Anandamayi. Actually, I am not proud, but what they have done in comparison to me?

Aksayananda: Yes, they've done nothing.

Prabhupada: He has said saba ka mukha kala kara diya.

Aksayananda: Mukha kala.

Prabhupada: Kala. Kala means lajjita, black face. Everyone should be ashamed. They may be envious on account of their failure, but if you come to the actual valuation, saba ka mukha kala ho gaya. That's a fact.

Hari-sauri: Actually, that Bon Maharaja is very black anyway.

Prabhupada: He's so black, there is no more black required. [laughter] A black snake. [Kala bamuna kata sudra…] In Bengali, if a brahmana is black, he is dangerous.

Aksayananda: If a brahmana is black?

Prabhupada: That means he's not pure brahmana. Brahmana cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brahmana family, how it has... Still, family, it must be very fair, sukla. Brahmana, ksatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kalo brahmana, kata sudra, beṅte mussalman, khanakira chele, posya-putra. It is a slang language. [laughter] Kala brahmana. Brahmana should not be black, and sudra should not be white. And a Mussalman should not be dwarf. Because formerly, real Musselmens were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called [indistinct]. If a Mussalman is dwarf, that means he is not real. [Kalo brahmana, kata sudra, beṅte mussalman, khanakira chele…] Prostitute's son, and posya-putra, adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brahmana, white sudra, dwarf Mussalman, and prostitute's son and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like... I have seen so many adopted sons.

Hari-sauri: Adopted son, oh.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like our..., Hamsaduta's wife, what is name? She has adopted a son.

Hari-sauri: Oh, Himavati.

Prabhupada: Himavati. It is not like that. But generally, adopted son means spoiled son.

Aksayananda: Spoiled. Spoiled brat.

Prabhupada: Because he gets money. Adopted... One who has got money but no children, he takes some adopted son. So the adopted son thinks that "I have got so much money," and he has never worked. He is spoiled. I have seen many adopted son in our... Got lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and in one night he's spoiled everything, simply after woman and wine. I have seen it. There was one gentleman, Harendranath Singh. Very big, palatial building and very rich man. And I have seen him when he was finished. He was friend of big, big person, Raja Maharaja. And one day I saw in Calcutta, in Dharmatala, there was raining and he was sitting in a ricksha. And no friend. He had known practically all big men of Calcutta, friend. Nobody is coming. "Well, Harenbabu, you are sitting. Come on in my car." Nobody. I was [indistinct]. And he was drenching, there was heavy rain. And sitting in a... And he was keeping Rolls Royce car.

Aksayananda: Keeping?

Prabhupada: Rolls Royce car. When he was rich man.

Aksayananda: Sometimes while traveling I've met some very old, rich men lying on their deathbed, dying. I approached them to help us. They will not give a single penny. It is all going to the son, and the son is atheist. In the house there is everywhere Krsna's picture. Very difficult. They don't know that Krsna is giving them a chance. They die; within days some of them can die. They are lying on the bed, passing stool and urine. So rich. But they do not care to help this movement. So many people like that. We have to become very expert. [end]