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Bhagavata: ...explaining to them the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and pure devotional service so that they may go back to home, back to Godhead, and become liberated from the realms of birth and death in this material world.

Prabhupada: Is that all right, what he said? So, how to help them?

Devotee: First we give them the chanting, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee: First we give them the maha-mantra.

Prabhupada: Maha-mantra, one may not accept.

Bhagavata: We have to find the ways and the means by which we can make pure devotional service attractive to each living entity according to his particular...

Prabhupada: Unless one feels necessity, why they will accept your proposal, "Chant Hare Krsna"? How you'll make them feeling, "Yes, it is necessary"? That is wanted. Otherwise, anyone will say, some proposition, "You do this." Then why they will accept it?

Devotee: Hmm. We have to make...

Prabhupada: Unless he feels that... That requires philosophy. If you say something dogmatic, why they'll accept? You say that "You chant Hare Krsna," he'll say, "I have no interest. I have no interest. Why shall I chant Hare Krsna?"

Devotee: Tell them that they are eternal spirit soul.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee: You tell them that you are eternal spirit soul. Tell them about the eternal spiritual world, the eternal spiritual...

Prabhupada: That you have to convince, that "You are eternal, but you are falsely engaged in temporary business." That you have to tell them.

Bhagavata: We have to give them knowledge. Knowledge consists of telling them what is the field, who is the knower of the field, and who is the super-knower of the field. Once they get knowledge, knowledge is the preliminary step to executing devotional service. Once they have knowledge, then they will be able to execute devotional service. And Rupa Goswami says that one who executes devotional service in knowledge, he increases his knowledge. Therefore the first thing is we should give them knowledge, and knowledge means to understand this body, the owner of the body and the supreme owner of the body, Krsna. Purusa prakrti caiva ksetra ksetrajnam eva ca.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

"What is the field; what is the purusa, the enjoyer; what is prakrti, nature; what is the ksetra, the field; what is the ksetrajna, the knower of the field; what is knowledge; and what is the end of knowledge. These things I wish to know," icchami.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Bhagavata: And Krsna answers him. He says that idam sariram kaunteya-"My dear Kunti, sariram, this body, ksetrajna..., ksetrajnam..." [Bg 13.2]

Prabhupada: Not "My dear Kunti."

Bhagavata: "My dear son of Kunti."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavata: Ksetram ity abhidhiyate, that "This body is known as the field." Ksetram ity abhidhiyate.

Etad yo vetti tam prahuh ksetra-jna iti tad-vidah, that "This body is known as the field, and one who knows this field, he is the knower of the field, he is the knower of the body."

Prabhupada: Hmm. So how to explain? Everyone is acting. How he is acting on the field, that to be explained. Field of activities. In English it is called field of activity. So that field of activity is this body. According to the body one begins his... Just like one born in the dog's body, so the dog care... They, from the very beginning, they are searching after a master. You have seen the small?

Hari-sauri: Pup.

Prabhupada: Yes. They follow some gentleman. And because at that time it is good living, somebody takes charge, "All right let me take this pup." And the children also like, so he gets some shelter. So similarly, according to different body, the activities begins. Therefore body is the field of activities. Hmm? A snake, because he has got the field of activity of a snake's body, from the very beginning he is very, very envious. The same, trying to bite others. In this way our activities begin according to the body. And this change of bodies take place in the lower animal life automatically, by nature's law. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg 3.27].

But when comes to the form of a human being, on account of developed consciousness, he has got responsibility. He has to make his choice. He is suffering in this material world, changing in different types of bodies, one after another, and the propensity to lord it over the material world is going on. Now he has to change the consciousness, whether he wants to continue this propensity for lording over the material world, or he wants to surrender to Krsna.

This choice has to be made by the human being. If he makes his choice after getting good education from the right source, that "I am going on in the wrong way by the desire to lord it over the material nature, but I am eternal servant of Krsna, therefore I must surrender now," bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam... [Bg 7.19].

This is wisdom. And if we do not get this wisdom, simply like animals we continue to lord it over the material nature by acquiring money-dharma, artha, kama-then we are spoiling our life. Several times we become religious for being promoted to higher standard of life-economic development, big, big scheme, plans, how to make very ni..., gorgeous city, buildings, roads, cars, slaughterhouse, scientific, how to cut throat very scientifically. These plans are going on. Some of them are trying to be religious to go to the heaven, because he has heard, and that's a fact also, that heavenly planets the standard of living is more opulent, hundreds and thousands times; the sex enjoyment is hundred and thousand times better. So by so-called religious functions, sacrifices... The aim the same, how to satisfy senses. And the dog is also anxious to satisfy his senses. As soon as he finds a female dog, he wants to make friendship with her and have sex. On the street, never mind. And similarly the demigods they are also doing the same business, in a different standard only. The business is the same. Ahara-nidra-bhayam maithunam. [Hitopadesa 25]

So if one wants to continue this business then he'll continue this material body, and if he wants to stop this business, come to his original position, then he makes real progress in life. But nobody is interested in advancement of spiritual life. Generally they take to religion, religiosity, for material happiness. Arto artharthi. [Bg 7.16] I am distressed, I have no money, or I am suffering from some disease-you'll find all these. So all of them go to see sadhu only for this purpose. "Sir, I am suffering from some disease, so without going to the doctor, and saving so much money, let me pay hundred rupees to the sadhu, and he'll give me his blessing. So I will save thousands of rupees for curing the disease." For this purpose they go to sadhu. Nobody goes to sadhu for going back to home, back to Godhead. It is only we are proposing. Otherwise the so-called yogis, sadhus, svamis, they are making good-luck business simply by promising that you'll get this material power. This Mahesh Yogi, he says that... What is his philosophy?

Harikesa: He says that if you renounce now, you can enjoy later. That if you take some austerity now, like meditation, abstaining from certain things, that later on you can enjoy sex life unlimitedly, have clear intelligence unlimitedly, and ultimately become the...

Prabhupada: The Mahesh Yogi, TM. Transcendental Meditation. But I don't think they say that if you undergo austerities you...

Harikesa: No, that was in the beginning they were saying. He said...

Prabhupada: Oh, now he has changed!

Harikesa: Now he has changed, because it was too unpopular.

Prabhupada: It is business.

Bhagavata: Rajneesh is also like that.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Bhagavata: Rajneesh, same philosophy, that you...

Prabhupada: Hmm. But they do not know. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals, they do not know what is the actual aim of life. They are, in the groups of ordinary men, they are doing some business, as somebody does business by opening sweetmeat shop. So they have opened this transcendental TM shop, that's all. Cheating. Cheating. So all of them are going on, cheating. Nobody knows the real interest is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Nobody knows. Ask any so-called sadhu, yogi, svami-they do not know even all this. They read Bhagavad-gita, but they do not understand. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg 15.6].

So what do they understand, these... Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9]. They do not believe all these things, therefore they say... Swami Chinmayananda says that whatever is necessary we shall accept; other slokas we shall reject. This is his..., this rascal's philosophy. As if Krsna has said something superfluous. They say like that. And the other day some gentleman came, that "It is fictitious writing." You were present?

Hamsaduta: Hmm.

Prabhupada: "Why not silent?" Krsna is not silent. Krsna is speaking. Why you should be silent when I challenge you like this? He said. He could not answer. This is going on. So many things they are doing; if they are challenged, they cannot answer. You were present? I told him, "Why silence? Krsna is not silent. He says continually, bhagavan uvaca, page after page, and he's saying, 'Why he should be silent?' " He gave me the information that Ramana Maharshi was silent, and anyone who would go to him, he would remain silent, and the message will be transferred.

Bhagavata: Rajneesh says the same thing. Rajneesh, he says that Krsna and Arjuna did not speak. Krsna simply looked at Arjuna and Arjuna understood. But in order for Dhrtarastra to understand, because he was blind, Sanjaya is speaking and he is explaining everything, and Vyasdeva has written down what Sanjaya has explained. This is..., that is what Rajneesh says like that. So why does Sanjaya say bhagavan uvaca?

Prabhupada: No, no. Sanjaya heard, then he said?

Bhagavata: Yes.

Prabhupada: So then Krsna is speaking; otherwise how he heard? Hmm? This nonsense is going on everywhere. It is very difficult position. So many rascals, and we have to push on our movement through so many obstacles, but still we are going on. That is Krsna's mercy. Otherwise we are simply meeting with obstacles. What can be done? We have to go forward. I..., I met in so many, same idea: impersonalism, bogus thought, and no clear idea.

Bhagavata: One man came to Calcutta temple, and he insisted that Krsna was impersonal, that He had no form, that He was, ultimately, just the Brahman. I said that Krsna says in the Gita, brahmano hi pratisthaham. He says, "That aham means the Brahman." I said that if that aham means the Brahman, then why is Krsna being redundant in saying that the Brahman is subordinate to the Brahman? Brahmano hi pratisthaham. He just said "Brahman is subordinate to aham, Me." So if aham means Brahman, then why is Krsna saying the Brahman is subordinate to the Brahman?

Prabhupada: Therefore these rascals, the same. No clear understanding, and they are svamis, yogis and avataras. It is very dangerous position, very dangerous. We have to deal with all rascals and fools. And they have made some position. Of course, that position is nothing. Hmm? A big, big, I mean, Mr. Nanda is also a victim of this idea, nirvesesa-sunyavadi. Still, we cannot change our position. We must go with our conviction, and that is real, reality. So, begin kirtana. [end]