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Prabhupada: ...come with me?

American guest: Yes. When I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time.

Prabhupada: Oh.

American guest: That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again.

Prabhupada: Oh. So what is your program now?

American guest: Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town, and I was down the street and I saw Gurudasa, so I said..., I went over and said hello to him.

Prabhupada: Oh.

American guest: And he..., he and Yamuna insisted that I come visit you.

Prabhupada: Nim Karoli, how do you know him?

American guest: Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Ram Das? You know Richard Alpert?

Prabhupada: Oh, Balarama, he was here.

Devotee: Baba Ram, Baba Ram.

Devotee (2): Baba Ram Das.

Prabhupada: Oh, Baba Ram. [Hindi] [break]

American guest: ...that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Ram.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center, Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard.

American guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: And people are also almost Indian standard.

American guest: Well, Mexico and India are exactly same..., opposite side of the world, like this.

Prabhupada: Anti-point.

American guest: Yes. And, uh, some..., there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Maha-kali.

Prabhupada: Worship Maha-kali?

American guest: Like Maha-kali, yes. Very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpents' heads.

Prabhupada: Oh.

American guest: You know, two serpents' heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls.

Prabhupada: Oh, skulls.

American guest: Skulls.

Prabhupada: They're [indistinct] Maha-kali.

American guest: Like Maha-kali, yes.

Prabhupada: That is worship. That is religion?

American guest: Well, before, when the Spanish were there.

Prabhupada: Oh.

American guest: Name is Papinque[?].

Prabhupada: Oh.

American guest: And she's supposed to represent the earth.

Prabhupada: Your parents live in Mexico City?

American guest: No, not Mexico City. [indistinct] region. I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Saṅkaracarya.

Prabhupada: Oh

American guest: On the street Puerto. But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time.

Prabhupada: Oh.

American guest: They're also vegetarians now.

Prabhupada: Accha? In Mexico they are vegetarians?

American guest: Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this..., these people who belong to Saṅkaracarya sampradaya are vegetarians.

Gurudasa: Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from?

American guest: I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know... [break]

American guest: How's your health?

Prabhupada: Health is not very good. I am not cent per cent.

Devotee: So much time... [indistinct] [break]

Prabhupada: This we will take more, it will not harm. But the other, if you take little less... [break] [indistinct] ghee. Most [indistinct] New Zealand. In Mexico also? No.

American guest: There is good butter.

Prabhupada: Butter?

American guest: Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like, uh...

Prabhupada: Many flowers eh? There are so many flower stall.

American guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: And there in Mexico there is... In Mexico where I saw "Mahatma Gandhi."

Devotee: That was in Mexico.

Gurudasa: In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Gurudasa: Yeah. Mexico City. Mahatma Gandhi.

Prabhupada: There in the city. I saw Mahatma Gandhi Street.

American guest: Hmm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's... [break].

Prabhupada: Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahatma Gandhi. [break]

American guest: From that illness you had when you came to India...

Prabhupada: Yes.

American guest: When you were recovering from your stroke?

Prabhupada: Oh.

American guest: I think you looked in better health then.

Prabhupada: When I was...

American guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Since then I have no stroke.

American guest: You still have massages every day?

Prabhupada: Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutananda, one day...

[break] What philosophy you are following?

American guest: Pardon?

Prabhupada: Which philosophy you are following?

American guest: Uh, Buddha philosophy, and, uh, Vedanta and, uh, Krsna philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now, [indistinct name].

Prabhupada: He also teaches Krsna?

American guest: Uh, he teaches, uh...

Prabhupada: Buddha.

American guest: Buddha. Buddhism.

Prabhupada: So how you will adjust Krsna philosophy and Buddha philosophy?

American guest: Well, it's just a different, uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too.

Prabhupada: So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God.

American guest: Yeah. It's a atheistic approach.

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: It's a atheistic approach.

Prabhupada: No soul, no God. Our Krsna philosophy is God, soul, and Vedanta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedanta philosophy and Krsna philosophy.

American guest: The approach is different, yes.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

American guest: The approach is different.

Prabhupada: Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Krsna philosophy?

American guest: There's a few, uh, paradoxes I... But, uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to, uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was..., he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said, "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?"

Prabhupada: Achieved?

American guest: Achieved. You know-attained.

Prabhupada: Achieved. Oh.

American guest: And, uh, then he started to say, "Well, if they believe in an external God,'' or something like that, "then it is heretical.'' I says, "But nevertheless,'' I says, "uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?'' So then he argued. He finally says... Well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if..., if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty; some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different.

Prabhupada: If the approach is different... Suppose if the approach is to fire. The approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience will be there?

American guest: Well...

Prabhupada: If you actually approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal-it is fire-you will experience heat and light.

American guest: We are, approaching means...

Prabhupada: But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light?

American guest: Yes, but what are we approaching?

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: What are we approaching?

Prabhupada: That you have to explain.

American guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: We say...

American guest: The Absolute.

Prabhupada: We say approaching Krsna, the Absolute. We have got Krsna's form, we have Krsna's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities; therefore you know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same.

American guest: Well, I know your philosophy, 'cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your, uh..., you may have a different style, and you may call it Krsna consciousness or you may call it nirvana, but I think that ultimately it's, uh...

Prabhupada: I can..., I can explain Krsna consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvana. That is the difficulty. I can explain my position, but you cannot explain your position.

American guest: How is it that I cannot explain my position?

Prabhupada: Then explain what do you mean by nirvana.

American guest: Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness.

Prabhupada: Then where is nirvana when you do not know the meaning of nirvana? Nirvana means finished.

American guest: Uh, yes. I think that...

Prabhupada: Nirvana means everything finished, void.

American guest: Etymologically it means "no wind."

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: "No wind."

Prabhupada: No wind?

American guest: The root of the word, I believe, means "no wind." There's no wind.

Prabhupada: No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvana means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished.

American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvana.

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvana.

Prabhupada: But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvana. Nirvana means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvana.

Devotee: [to guest] You want some more vegetables and puris?

Prabhupada: Give him. More, more.

American guest: Not more.

Devotee: Yes.

American guest: If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire.

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: If there's an extinguishing...

Prabhupada: So if the desire is extinguished, then what you are?

American guest: But it's not extinguishing of desire; it's transforming of desire. Like this is one...

Prabhupada: That is not extinguishing.

American guest: Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the, uh, flame of, uh...

Prabhupada: That we say. You don't extinguish desire, but we purify desire. That is our... But that is not the void, nirvana. Nirvana means finished.

American guest: Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either, but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that...

Prabhupada: Transformed to what?

American guest: Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other, uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else.

Prabhupada: Then it is not nirvana. It is purification. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvana. Just like...

American guest: Well, this is what I mean by nirvana.

Prabhupada: You mean, but the word nirvana... Suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I...

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Huh? What is that?

Devotee: Gopala wants to see you. [break]

Prabhupada: Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvana. But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is purification. Suppose cataract, cataract operation.

American guest: Well, um, whatever the origin, of the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just, uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvana means.

Prabhupada: Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary.

American guest: Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as..., as it's used, you know, in, uh, by, by the people who are using this word to...

Prabhupada: Nirvana. Nirvana means, I have already explained-this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit-nirvana means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning.

American guest: Right. Words change meaning as time goes on.

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by, uh...

Prabhupada: Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvana?

American guest: Nirvana is identifying your, uh, uh, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system.

Prabhupada: The life symptoms?

American guest: Hmm?

Prabhupada: Symptoms of life?

American guest: In this system.

Prabhupada: System? What is that system?

American guest: The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism.

Prabhupada: Oh. So what is that practically?

American guest: The practical result?

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: The practical result is, uh... I don't see it as being far different from Krsna consciousness, though the approach may be different.

Prabhupada: What Krsna consciousness is stress is always thinking of Krsna, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]. It is directly always thinking of Krsna.

American guest: So that is...

Prabhupada: To offer obeisances to Krsna, to worship Krsna, to become devotee of Krsna-this is Krsna consciousness.

American guest: Buddha is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: Buddha is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Buddha is Krsna, that I know, but the...

American guest: So that if you...

Prabhupada: ...those who Buddhist, they do not know. [guest laughs] They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe.

American guest: So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware...

Prabhupada: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our..., our philosophy, understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Krsna. But the Buddhists, they do not believe.

American guest: No, they've rejected the Vedas.

Prabhupada: Yes. But we say.

American guest: But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up..., to argue sect against sect.

Prabhupada: That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we [indistinct], we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare [Gita-govinda]. We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam [Jayadeva Gosvami]. So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Krsna. But those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their understand.

American guest: Now how, how, how..., why would Buddha want to cheat people?

Prabhupada: Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says, "What I say, you believe.'' That means he is cheating them.

American guest: He didn't say that.

Prabhupada: Huh?

American guest: Buddha didn't say that.

Prabhupada: Then why do you..., why do you study Buddha philosophy?

American guest: Well, he said, "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth,'' but what Buddha said...

Prabhupada: That's all right. Buddha philosophy...

American guest: What Buddha said was, he says, "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places.'' He says, "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others."

Prabhupada: But these are teachings of Buddha.

American guest: Huh, but...

Prabhupada: But...

American guest: But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more, uh, of an independent approach. He's not, uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody, but he was trying to...

Prabhupada: Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you..., I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it required.

American guest: Cheating, yeah. Tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying.

Prabhupada: Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad.

American guest: Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest..."

Prabhupada: Good, good lessons for...

American guest: "...leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying,'' meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that, uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly.

Prabhupada: That, in the Bhagavata it is said, sammohaya sura-dvisam [SB 1.3.24]. Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the [indistinct]. They did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want Brahman [indistinct], but you come in a different place. So Brahman is there, but I am thinking it is not Brahman. Similarly, God is there-Buddha-but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha, exactly as we worship Krsna. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Srimad-Bhagavatam, sammohaya sura-dvisam [SB 1.3.24]. [break] [end]