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Prabhupada: So these people, the sahajiyas, they have become dogs and hogs. Now after this life...

[indistinct-loud kirtana].

For their sinful activities they have become dogs and hogs. Now unconsciously as dogs and hogs they are taking advantage of the Vrndavana land. Now they become. Now they will become pure devotees. Just like we see in the life of Bharata Maharaja: so much austerity, and because a little attachment for the deer, the next life he was taken[?]. The next life he was taken[?], Yamala-arjuna; they became trees. But on account of staying in Vrndavana, next life [indistinct].

So we should be intelligent. Why should we take another chance of becoming hogs and dogs? But that requires intelligence. Ultimately they will be delivered, but it will be delayed by becoming hogs and dogs once.

Gurudasa: Acyutananda Maharaja said that he has heard that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati has said that these turtles in Vrndavana were previously caste gosvamis.

Prabhupada: Yes. So...

Gurudasa: It's a result of trying to cheat maya, then?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Gurudasa: It's a result of trying to...

Prabhupada: Yes, this is... They are showing that "We are gosvamis," but doing all nonsense. This is cheating. Like this man, he is thinking that "Somehow or other I am getting money through Damodara, and I shall drink and everything, do all this." It is not cheating? Gosvami means one who has full control over the senses. That is gosvami.

But he is taking the title of gosvami but he has no control over his senses. That is cheating. So you cannot cheat that way, Krsna or maya. Whatever little success I have got, I have tried always not to cheat Krsna or maya. That's all.

Gurudasa: Yes.

Prabhupada: Otherwise, Bon Maharaja was deputed, but he wanted to cheat. He thought that "I shall go to England and become... When I come back, I shall advertise myself, 'I have preached in this way and that way and that way' and exploit." Just like Vivekananda did. They are all cheaters. Vivekananda had no knowledge even to..., what is to give. He was such a rascal. And he went to America and he picked up three women, that's all.

That is his achievement. One Sister Nivedita, his private secretary. That's all. This is all cheating. If you do not know... They go for wine and women, that's all. All these svamis, they are going now these days. Saccidananda, that long-haired man, he is also being sued for something. Who was telling me?

Gurudasa: That Devarsa[?], boy.

Prabhupada: Yes. So this cheating process is going on. But you cannot cheat Krsna or maya. That is not possible. This is gosvami, that is..., I have explained this fact. To these sahajiyas. Don't make compromise, that "Somehow or other I'll chant Hare Krsna, everything will be done." Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg 7.14].

Duratyaya: it is very difficult to surmount the laws of nature. So how is that cheat? Just like laws of nature are so strict, if you eat more, immediately you get indigestion. So how you can cheat? You can experience. Nature's law is working.

Therefore, to become brahmana means satyam. You know the meaning of satyam? Satyam means truth. The first quality is truth. Satyam saucam arjavam astikyam jnanam vijnanam. The beginning is satyam. Generally, the people in pilgrimages like Vrndavana and other, they have taken this religiousness as a profession to earn money, just like other businessmen do. That is cheating.

Generally, the people in pilgrimages like Vrndavana and other, they have taken this religiousness as a profession to earn money, just like other businessmen do. That is cheating. Generally they do so. [pause] In Los Angeles they are keeping the standard given by [indistinct]. At every aratik at the morning, at least 150 men there. Even though I am not present, by system, by kirtana, dancing, offering Deity worship nicely, people are coming, of [indistinct].

So we have to maintain the standard very strictly. Otherwise it will again become Radha-Damodara temple and Bharatpur Maharaja become. You will have to find out some customer to sell it. What is the use of starting temple if you do not do it properly? Why should you waste your energy? Better travel and preach. Don't take the risk of starting big, big temple. As soon as the energy is gone, there will be trouble.

That Govindaji's temple, that man lost everything because he was cheating. If this man is also cheating, then he will also. Our Tirtha Maharaja is cheating, then what is his...? He got so many things, but he could not do anything. Now he is after these buildings, that's all. Otherwise, what is his credit? He is not a good preacher. He was as the head of Caitanya Matha. How much duty was..., heavy duty he had to preach. But he had no preaching capacity. The only one in [indistinct].

Gurudasa: Preaching gives that spiritual energy.

Prabhupada: Yes. So one must be qualified to preach. If he is a cheater, how he can preach?

Gurudasa: If he's preaching, the qualification will come.

Prabhupada: Yes. If he is sincere, then his capacity will increase. Otherwise, if he wants to cheat, then it will decrease.

Gurudasa: So what is the purpose for very large temples in India? Just for the...

Prabhupada: Just to attract people, to give them spiritual inspiration. That is the purpose of temple. Not that you think that "People will come and give me money, and I shall eat and sleep very nicely," then it will gradually become Radha-Damodara temple or any other temple, Bharatpur Maharaja's house.

Gurudasa: I'm thinking that if we're endeavoring with as much energy to preach and have a modest temple, that everyone's energy will be increased-our devotees' and the outsiders'.

Prabhupada: That is the basic principle. If you lose your energy, then it is everything is lost. And to keep the energy intact, you must be very strict in following the principles.

Gurudasa: Subala Maharaja was joking with me that I am wanting to preach, but instead I am just thinking of steel and cement.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Gurudasa: Subala Maharaja was joking with me that I am wanting to preach, but instead I am thinking about steel and cement and bricks.

Prabhupada: No. If that steel, cement and bricks are meant for preaching, then it is all right. But if there is difficulty, then sometimes we become absorbed in steel, cement. Steel, cement is not bad, provided it is meant for preaching. That is also spiritual. Nirbandhe krsna sambandhe yukta-vairagya [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.255].

But because we are materialistic, sometimes steel and cement attracts us more than Krsna. So this Bombay affair is giving me a little depression. Because so highly thought of, now these people, they do not want to stay there. Just like this Mahamsa, Dinanatha, they do not wish to return. Something has to be done.

Gurudasa: Actually, it is not only one or two isolated cases.

Prabhupada: There are many. I have studied all of them.

Gurudasa: If it was one or two isolated cases, one can think maybe it is personal difficulty. But it is many cases.

Prabhupada: No, this is due to mismanagement. It is due to mismanagement. Proper leader. [pause] [end]