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November 17, 1975, Bombay
Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat all the time. Ninety percent of the peasantry absolutely, completely wiped out during the Britishers' time. They never looked after them.
Prabhupada: No, no. Poverty is the cause of nonretirement?
Dr. Patel: They have nothing to eat. They hardly get, I mean, two meals. Not square but even triangle. (laughs) They don't get any food in the mofices(?).
Prabhupada: What is the question of mofices?(?) I am talking of...
Dr. Patel: India is made up of all villages and mofices(?). Cities are few.
Prabhupada: So that is the cause of nonretirement.
Dr. Patel: I mean to my mind. It may be another cause also. I don't know. What do you think? Lack of proper education?
Prabhupada: Yes. Big, big men like Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi, they never retired.
Dr. Patel: Gandhi, as a matter of fact, retired long back. I mean the... As far as I know, he was not a member of the Congress.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. It was everything.
Dr. Patel: That is... You are. You may not be member, but you are everything. They like that. I mean, if I am not wrong.
Prabhupada: What do you mean by retire? Retire means...
Dr. Patel: Retire from the worldly affairs.
Prabhupada: From the worldly affairs. That is retire. We are not sunyavadi. The retirement means...
Dr. Patel: Our religions are dharma, artha, kama and moksa. It is in a continuity. It is a sort of a string. First you have artha...
Prabhupada: The real thing is they do not retire on account of their strong sense of gratification. That is the reason, not that poverty-stricken. Even though poverty-stricken, still they want to enjoy. This is the basic principle. There is nothing to be enjoyed; still, he wants to enjoy. That mentality.
Dr. Patel: Why with all that glorious past and glorious culture they have to... [break]
purusena parah puman
visnur aradhyate pumsam
[Cc. Madhya 8.58]
Hare Krsna. Jaya. Nanyat tat-tosa-karanam. Tat-tosa means to satisfy Visnu, Krsna. They don't want to do that. They want to satisfy their senses.
Dr. Patel: Our culture was so built as to do work for Krsna throughout the life from brahmacarya, grhastha asrama, vanaprastha...
Prabhupada: But where is the question. Unless...
Dr. Patel: But how they have forgotten this is the greatest, I mean, mystery to me. Because the sadhus voluntarily, I mean, embrace poverty?
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: All those, sir...
Dr. Patel: You think so.
Dr. Patel: And mayavada philosophy was necessary to dislodge the Buddhist, degenerated Buddhism.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sunyavadi. Nirvisesa-sunyavadi. They are practically the same. Buddhists say that everything is zero ultimately. And the Mayavadis say...
Dr. Patel: Mayavadis, sir, have been proved that if everything is zero, who sees the zero? Who sees the zero?
Prabhupada: No, no. Mayavadi says zero, just like the sky. The sky is there, but it is zero. You cannot see the planet.
Dr. Patel: But who sees all these things? That is what...
Prabhupada: And he cannot see; therefore he says it is zero. Just like now you do not see the stars, but it is on account of my deficient vision I do not see, and I say, "It is zero," less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Do you think, in your opinion, mayavada was a necessity to undo all the bad effect of the degenerated Buddhism? This followed some three, four or seven hundred years of after Gautama Buddha.
Prabhupada: No, it... It might be necessity for the time being. Buddhism also was a necessity for the time being. They are not for all. Emergency. Just like it is going on, "emergency." It is not necessity, but sometimes we have to take emergency. Otherwise how Vaisnavas are worshiping Lord Buddha? Eh? Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam: "You are always deriding the Vedic principles," sruti-jatam. Sadaya-hrdaya-darsita-pasu-ghatam. This is emergency, that "You have become so much compassionate upon the poor animals because they are unnecessarily being killed." Kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira, jaya jagadisa. He is glorifying, kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira, but showing that "You are deriding Vedic principles." So how is that, if one derides Vedic principle, at the same time, jaya jagadisa hare?
Dr. Patel: Because the Vedic principles were not properly understood by those people at that time.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. He directly said, "I don't care for the Vedas." Lord Buddha says. So who will worship a person who directly says, "I don't care for your Vedas"? Shall you go to worship a Buddhist or Mohammedan? No. This is emergency. Sadaya-hrdaya-darsita pasu-ghatam. He cannot deride the Vedic principle, but it was necessary at the time. Otherwise these rascals will not stop.
Dr. Patel: Today, sir, the more animals are being killed than what they were killed in those days in the name of religion. Today it is in the name of the civilization
Prabhupada: Because... No, no. Now there is no religion. "Secular." There is no religion.
Dr. Patel: Don't say no religion. Secularism is irreligious...
Prabhupada: Secular means no religion.
Dr. Patel: Irreligious rather than. No religion is also something good. But something other than religion.
Prabhupada: You may call anything, but there is no religion. Dharmena hina pasubhih samanah. They are animals, that's all. The modern civilized man is nothing but an animal-dressed animal, two-legged animal. The animals are four-legged, and these animals are two-legged, that's all. Or big animal. [break]...varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh. The leaders of this modern civilization, they are being praised by other animals. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih [SB 2.3.19]. Sva means dog and...
Dr. Patel: Kharah means asses.
Prabhupada: Sva-vid... Vid-varaha means hogs, and ustra means camel, and kharah means gadha, ass. So these leaders are being praised by these animals: dogs, hogs, camels, and asses. And they are thinking they are very big men. What is the value of prayers offered by dogs, hogs, asses and camels? The general people are dogs, hogs, camels. I think you have read. I have explained how they are camel, how they are dog, how they are hog, and how they are ass. I have explained this.
Yasomatinandana: That's the Second Canto.
Prabhupada: Yes. The modern education means to create dogs. The dog goes door to door and moves the tail, "Please give me if you have anything." So this educated person with application goes, and they say, "No vacancy. Get out." Therefore they are dogs. Educated means dogs. They are creating dogs. In Vedic culture no brahmana will accept any job. No ksatriya will accept any job. No vaisya will accept any... Only sudras. Only sudras.
Dr. Patel: Now they are keeping dogs in their kitchens.
Prabhupada: Yes. Doggish mentality is there.
Dr. Patel: You see, the people are spending more than thirty, forty rupees on a dog every day. But they won't pay two rupees to a servant, domestic servant in their home.
Prabhupada: They are keeping servants also. But educated dogs. After passing so many examinations, they are seeking after master. And without master they will starve. This is doggish mentality. A big technologist, unless he gets a good job, he is nothing but dog.
Dr. Patel: He has got no means to further his technology. He must have some means to further his own technology in the modern times, sir. It is very difficult to further your technology without proper means, instruments.
Prabhupada: On the principle it is dog's business. Unless you get a master, you are useless. So that is dog's business. Just like these dogs here on the beach. Because they have no master, they are forlorn, only barking and going here, there. Sanatha jivitah. So we are, every one of us, we are now dogs of the material nature, or just like street dogs. So therefore... Hare Krsna. Therefore we should take shelter of the big master, Krsna. Then it will be all right. Jaya. Hare Krsna. [break] ...eva caran nirantaram. This is Yamunacarya's prayer. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaram. Hare Krsna. Jaya. Bhavantam eva caran nirantaram prasanta-nihsesa-gato... Prasanta-nihsesa-gato-manantaram. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] ...all right? No. Not yet. You are feeling all right? No.
Ambarisa: Yes, feeling all right. Yes. [break]
Indian man (1): Coconut tree along this side. Prabhupada asking.
Ambarisa: [break] ...warm weather in Florida.
Prabhupada: Huh? In Honolulu. That means it depends on weather also, not only seaside. [break]
Prabhupada: That is all right.
Lokanatha: "Gaura sri advaita..." Is it recommended by you? That is in our parampara? And what about "jaya jagannatha, jaya jagannatha"?
Prabhupada: Yes. That's all right. [break] ...anukirtanam, to chant always the Lord's name. So these are Lord's name. Jagannatha is also Lord's name. Nityananda is also Lord's name. [break] ...harer nama harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. So harer nama can be chanted.
Prabhupada: Yes. Chanting means glorifying. "jaya jagannatha." "Please engage me." (to passerby:) Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Indian man (2): South Indian community brahmanas have spread all over Bombay now.
Indian man (2): South Indian community brahmanas and in Goregon, Mullan, Timpu, Nartinga(?), everywhere. In a year they have about eight to ten saptahams are there. Saptahams. The Narayani and that Nepuk Odhari(?), that children are chanting every day all these things. (indistinct) And the saptaham (indistinct) [break]
Dr. Patel: He saw the people are coming. And then he was climbing on the top of the roof and shouting, "My boys are not coming?" "They will come. Don't worry."
Prabhupada: Don't bring Ramakrishna as authority.
Dr. Patel: No, but that same thing here. I mean, the people will come.
Prabhupada: They are coming. They are coming. That is another thing. But "People will come; therefore I shall have to sleep," this is not...
Dr. Patel: At least I am coming. (laughs)
Prabhupada: So at night there was work?
Saurabha: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. [break]
Prabhupada: ...government is making secular. That means they think that there is no need of this spiritual education.
Dr. Patel: Sir, the secular means, I mean, respect for all the methods of worship.
Prabhupada: There is no method.
Dr. Patel: But they means secular means no dharma. That is their definition. It is a wrong definition.
Prabhupada: That is a defect of the government, that they do not know what is spiritual life. They have no knowledge. Mudhas. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know this. They cannot also explain what is the aim of life. That Professor Kotovsky, such a big man, he said, "Swamiji, after death everything is finished."
Prabhupada: Yes. This is this philosophy. This philosophy is prominent all over the world. They are... "So long this body is there, enjoy it to the utmost. And after death everything is finished." Bas.
Prabhupada: Sukham jivet.
Prabhupada: ...you have come? As soon as he has come, he is feeling headache. (laughter) [break] ...and pain in the stomach is very good disease. Nobody can see. (laughter) If I say, "I am feeling headache," you cannot see. I can sleep very nicely. And pain in the stomach, you cannot see. These two diseases are beyond the physician's limit.
Indian man (3): And these are common disease.
Dr. Patel: No, no, as a matter of fact, if there is a continuous headache, we can give him a number-one needle. Then his head will be cured. Then he will say, "I am all right sir. Now don't do it," with this much of needle inside. [break]
Prabhupada: The first cultural education is how to teach the small children to become purified, brahmacari.
Dr. Patel: In ancient times it was done by association in gurukula.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is required, gurukula. We are starting, therefore, gurukulas. And it is becoming...
Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmacari gurukule vasan danto guror hitam. This is the beginning. A brahmacari should live in the asrama of guru, danta, self-controlled, and only for the benefit of guru, not for anyone's benefit. Brahmacari guru... They'll go, collect alms, and everything should be delivered to guru.
Dr. Patel: When Krsna was sent to collect the wood.
Prabhupada: Yes. Guror hitam. The brahmacari life means only for the benefit of guru. Everything is there in Bhagavatam.
Dr. Patel: That mode of teaching, I mean...
Prabhupada: That can be introduced.
Dr. Patel: In a different way is there in America, sir. The American professors keep boys with them. They imbibe in them complete spirit of their educa... I mean, their mode of...
Prabhupada: I don't think so.
Dr. Patel: Not this, I mean, the material. But that is the way they do it. That is why their method of education is better than others.
Prabhupada: They drink.
Dr. Patel: Drinking is different story. I talk of the general mode of education, the way.
Prabhupada: No. Here are Americans. Is that the education? I don't think so.
Dr. Patel: No, postgraduate education is like that. Not undergraduate. The postgraduate boys are living in close contact with the professors for the research.
Brahmananda: Only a few schools.
Dr. Patel: Ah, but there are. The research is...
Prabhupada: No, the professor is also drunkard.
Dr. Patel: Then he may be a drunkard.
Brahmananda: They drink together. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is right.
Prabhupada: The professor goes to hell, and the student also goes. (laughter)
Indian man (3): This is their close association.
Dr. Patel: That is the way they...
Prabhupada: So you know that story, that one man was drinking, so his friend told him, "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my mother drinks." "Oh, she will also go." "My father drinks." "Oh, he will also go." "My brother drinks." "Oh, he will also go." "Then where is hell?" (laughter) "Father, mother, brother, myself, if we live together, then where is hell?" Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: That's a fact. Education by association is the superior method, whatever type of education may be.
Dr. Patel: Whatever type of education may be, but that is the real education.
Prabhupada: No, no. Not whatever. This is the education, that the...
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. This is education. There is no question of ABCD. First of all brahmacari gurukule vasan dantah. He is to be trained how to become sober and gentle.
Dr. Patel: Self-controlled.
Prabhupada: That is required. That is education. This is not education. They are killing the teachers. They are killing teachers. You do not know?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: In the examination hall the police is there, and if the guard detects, "Oh, you are taking notes from books," then he will be killed. So many teachers have been killed.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Police, under police they are. I saw in Delhi. One school I went, and the police is there, examination room, but all thieves, rascals. And they are sitting in examination for passing, all rascals.
Dr. Patel: The modern education has become a farce in that dress.
Prabhupada: Farce, yes. No education. Amongst the Marwaris, the respectable gentlemen, they don't send. They keep private teachers, panditas, for learning Sanskrit, English. They know that our, "My boy hasn't got to earn money. He has to sit here. That's all. Why he should be spoiled?" They know very well, "We can purchase these technologists."
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Everything farce. There is no education.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: In our time we had so much respect for our teachers and what love teachers had for us. One of my teachers in the school retired some time back and then... [break] They wanted to give him 65,000 rupees because he was a seventy-five years. And when we collected from the old students it came to more than six lakhs of rupees. That was the love of the old students for the teacher in those days. Now it is this.
Prabhupada: [break] ...infection and disinfection also, but you don't take to disinfection. That is our... Here is disinfection, Krsna consciousness movement. Who is going to take it? They will prefer to be infected. [break] ...respectable person will send their children to gurukula. They don't want. I tried in the beginning. It was a failure. They don't want. Just like Prahlada and Hiranyakasipu. What is the trouble? The Prahlada was devotee, and his father did not like him, that "Why you should be devotee? You become politician, diplomat." That is the difficulty, that nowadays everyone is Hiranyakasipu, and he wants that his son should be diplomat, politician, black market and... What is the use of this Prahlada? That is going on, especially in India. [break] Hiranyakasipu, he'll never like to see his son Prahlada. And our system is to make Prahlada. So nobody will like it.
Brahmananda: They had a gurukula here at Hare Krsna Land. Isn't it? And many of the children of the tenants were coming, and they were wearing tilaka. And then they would go home and tell their parents not to eat meat and so on, and the parents became very angry and took their children back. [break]
Prabhupada: ...Hiranyakasipu education, then it is filled up immediately. And if you introduce Prahlada education-vacant. [break] Hm? (laughs) [break] ...meet me at night, all you. [break] Who are living?
Giriraja: Our men? One room is for the school, and Yasomat...
Indian man (4): School, gurukula school.
Giriraja: The children. Then Yasomatinandana's wife was staying there, and Bilvamangala and his wife used to stay there.
Giriraja: One Bilvamangala and his wife used to stay there. So they've left. And Nayanabhirama and his wife used to stay there and they have left. So actually it could be emptied.
Prabhupada: But I saw yesterday someone living there.
Giriraja: Well, Yasomatinandana's wife is gone.
Prabhupada: No, there is some Indian woman.
Giriraja: Well, that's probably Bilvamangala's wife before they moved.
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...modern, that the earth comes in front of the moon or the sun and then there is eclipse. Do they not?
Dr. Patel: They, all the scientists also say the same thing, sir. When it comes in the straight line the eclipse...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I am saying, repeating their word. But why, then, eclipse takes place irregularly?
Dr. Patel: This is a question of simple harmonic motions according to the scientists here who explain it. The simple harmonic motion principle is that several motions are, I mean, going, gathered at a time. Then all of them come together. Then you see that thing occurs.
Dr. Patel: So that motions are different. The different timings come.
Prabhupada: But that means they do not know actually the motions.
Dr. Patel: And the old astrologers and scientists of India, they have planned it perfectly, when it comes out.
Prabhupada: Our sastra says that it is Rahu's attack. So attack does not come regularly.
Dr. Patel: That you may call allegorically.
Prabhupada: One... Suppose you have got enemy. You are not going to attack regularly, but when there is some opportunity you go to attack. Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21].
Dr. Patel: Are we not observing this eclipse rituals, that, during the eclipse we stop aratis and all of this...
Dr. Patel: And after the eclipse is over, take bath and then do the arati?
Prabhupada: Yes, they take bath.
Dr. Patel: Even the other Vaisnava mandirs don't do arati during that period if it comes within that...
Dr. Patel: Some sort of cosmic disturbances must be occuring in the cosmos during this period of grhana(?) or eclipse. We do not know, the modern science. Some movement must be happening.
Dr. Patel: Rahu means...The other side of the earth's shadow is Rahu, as we say. The modern scientists, the Rahu means other side of the shadow. When the sun shines on the earth, the other side of the earth is, I mean, the night and the shadow of the earth is long, drawn up in the cosmos. And in the view of that shadow, if moon comes, then it is caught by the shadow.
Dr. Patel: That is... The shadow is the Rahu. What else could be? That shadow of earth in the cosmos is the Rahu, most probably to me, because when the moon... Generally moon does not come so very often therein in the purview of that shadow. When it comes, it gets eclipsed.
Prabhupada: No, no. They give that the earth comes in front of the sun or the moon, therefore the shadow.
Dr. Patel: Earth comes in front of the sun. Then it becomes sun eclipse.
Prabhupada: Yes. So, but why, if the movement is regular, then the earth come regularly.
Dr. Patel: But there are several movements also. The movement of the earth, sun, and moon.
Prabhupada: That means again escaping.
Dr. Patel: All harmonic motions...
Devotee (5): Many shooting stars...
Dr. Patel: Things should be thought scientifically.
Prabhupada: What is the scientifically if you cannot say how many movements are there?
Dr. Patel: All the movements that the heavenly stars and other things are going on in a particular way.
Prabhupada: No, you do not know what are the movements. You therefore say there are several movements, but you do not know what are these movements. That is not scientific. To avoid the explanation, if the scientist says that there are several movements... But you explain what is that movement? According to our sastra there is no individual movement. The whole system is moving, making center the polestar. That we can see at night. They have... Star and planet, they have no separate movement. They are fixed up. Just like this tree. There are so many leaves. The tree is moving, so the leaves and twigs, they are moving, not that the leaf is moving.
Dr. Patel: This is a question of relativity, sir.
Prabhupada: Yes. But that we can see, this...
Dr. Patel: Now, the earth moves round the sun and the moon moves round the earth...
Prabhupada: No, no...
Dr. Patel: And the rate of movement is different on either side. And the axis or ground on which it moves also differs. So when all of them collide or sort of a thing, then eclipse comes. That is the modern understanding.
Prabhupada: And the... When Brahmananda was speaking that word yesterday, I refuted your argument?
Brahmananda: You were asking, "Why is it Sunday, Monday..." So I explained that the sun is the center of the universe; therefore the sun comes first.
Dr. Patel: No, various suns are there. All the stars are the suns of various universes.
Prabhupada: No, we don't accept that. No. Sun is one.
Dr. Patel: That is the fundamental difference of opinion that we don't go ahead of it, sir.
Prabhupada: No, why shall I go according to the dictation of the rascals? We are not so rascal.
Dr. Patel: And now we are define who is a rascal.
Prabhupada: No, rascal is meant, who has no authority. They are changing every day. They are changing. We don't change. These rascals are changing...
Dr. Patel: These fundamentals, sir, cannot be changed.
Prabhupada: In nineteenth century one theory and twentieth century another theory and then another theory, another theory. This is going on.
Dr. Patel: The truth is not changed but...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, they are changing. You see here... You have not seen that, our Svarupa Damodara's book? He has given: simply changing, simply changing, these rascals. Changing means rascal. He does not know. "It is this. It is this." Another man, "No, no, it is not this. It is this." Therefore all of them rascals.
Dr. Patel: About this Kakubh Kapoor Cakra(?), our scientist, Mihila(?), has planned it, and according to the eclipse and sun and the moon eclipse come. That means his science was perfect. Otherwise it would not come at that particular day, time, and...
Prabhupada: We... Our... Five thousand years ago Sukadeva Gosvami said that "As I have heard it, I am explaining." That means time immemorial, the thing is, same thing is coming. There is no change, not that after few days, "No, no. It was wrong. This is now right." Again somebody comes.
Dr. Patel: They are explaining the truth in their own way. That is the change of theory. But the truth is the same.
Prabhupada: That is the truth of rascaldom, as soon as you change your position.
Dr. Patel: Theory is rascal, but the truth is never rascal.
Prabhupada: No, no, truth you do not know. Therefore rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: They do not know how to explain. Truth is there, sir.
Prabhupada: No, no. Anyway, he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal, either you say this way or that way.
Dr. Patel: Truth is there.
Prabhupada: No, no, truth is there, but they cannot present the truth rightly. That is rascaldom. Truth is there; that is certain. But they cannot present the truth in right way.
Dr. Patel: You mean they are groping in the dark.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is rascal. How things are happening—every ten years they are changing their theory. And that has been explained by, not by a layman like me. The Dr. Svarupa Damodara, he has explained. He has concluded Darwin's theory completely wrong. You have read that small booklet?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: And he has given reason, quotation, how simply he's speculator.
Dr. Patel: As a matter of, sir, the whole cosmos is full of, I mean, intelligence. That is God. But then that intelligence is struck in different way to the, what you call the mind, which is embedded in the matter. So, I mean, each one explains it in his own way, as he understands...
Prabhupada: No, no. You cannot explain truth in your own way.
Dr. Patel: The whole truth nobody knows and sees. Even our sastra says.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Things which one does not know, he should not try to cheat others by placing some untruth.
Dr. Patel: It is like five blind men seeing an elephant.
Prabhupada: Yes. So you should not give the conclusion that "Elephant is like..."
Dr. Patel: Then we don't accept... It is very difficult to know the whole truth by any one of us.
Prabhupada: No. Therefore our process is upadeksyanti tad jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah. One has seen the truth. Not these rascals. Tattva-darsinah. Darsinah means who has actually seen. There is no change. The advice is tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. These are the quotes. Upadeksyanti tad jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah. Not that theoretical. Tattva-darsinah. You have to go there. Then you will get knowledge. A blind man goes to another blind man. What is the profit? No profit.
Prabhupada: Ah. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. A blind man must go to a man who has got eyes, who has seen. Then that is right knowledge. Now we are presenting this book, Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness. Let anyone come and challenge. Let anyone come. We have got many scientists. They will talk. What is the value of speculation?
Dr. Patel: I think some scientists have talked nonsense before you, so you are... (laughs) All scientists are not like that, sir. (end)